What should I do? (Patient rights and religious freedom)

[Lost in CT]

My Father has spent the last few weeks in a hospital ward due to issues dealing with dementia. He is getting his medications adjusted and I have been visiting him twice a day.

So I go in to spend time with him today and he has fucking ashes on his forehead. (as do all the other patients)

Now my father is a very strong atheist. We checked the box that said no priest visits when we checked him in. His book collection looks like the Christopher Hitchens research library. Due to his current condition he is subdued and unable to protest. But the man I know wouldn't allow a priest within 20 yards of his room (outside of Father Ted).

I myself am more religious than my father but I respect his rights to his views and this really pisses me off to no end.

I realize it is a Catholic Hospital but our background is Scots Irish Anglicans so needless to say under no circumstances would he celebrate Ash Wednesday.

I wanted to create a fuss this afternoon during my visit but I worry about effecting his quality of care. We have only three hours a day to visit and we have to trust that the staff is taking care of the man we love during the other 21 hours.

Any advice on whether to leave this matter alone or contact someone would be appreciated.

[NeedleCast]

1. Creating a Fuss is probably the wrong move to make with the people you entrust with care of your dad

Kinda like not sending back food at a restaurant and telling the waiter to tell the cook he sucks, then demanding new food.

That being said, I'd certainly raise your concern to the highest ranking member of the staff you can get access to. This is one of those situations where a reasonable conversation is going to get you a lot further than flipping out on the nearest RN.

[readmoreoften]

23. Awesome. What sort of religious thugs would retaliate against the sick?

Maybe they should get out of the hospital business if they feel that strongly against atheism.

[JerseygirlCT]

2. I doubt it will affect his care if you approach this in

a calm way. Go in with guns blazing, looking to get someone in trouble, and I'm not sure. Go in calmly, with a very reasonable concern, and I doubt that's what will happen.

(And why would being Anglican negate receiving ashes on Ash Wednesday? I'm Episcopalian, and it's certainly happening at my church.)

[Lost in CT]

5. Maybe it is the churches I grew up in but I have never seen it outside of Catholic Churches.

But if it was an Anglican or Episcopalian religious thing he still would have objected.

He is very strongly against having religion in his house.

[JerseygirlCT]

12. Oh, I understand that

But the Anglican (in the US, Episcopalian) church is often described as the via media - the in-between, if you will, the very Protestant churches and the RCC. We maintain much of the Catholic liturgy, for example (often still sticking to older forms, in fact - we still use an altar rail and kneel to receive in my church, for instance), and we follow the liturgical calendar, including the lenten season, and most of the traditions associated with it, including ashes, often.

But I totally understand that this would not have been your father's wish. I think perhaps you'd do well taking this beyond the floor - go to the hospital's public relations person, maybe - someone in administration. The idea isn't to get some person in trouble, the idea is to make sure that things like this aren't happening all the time and don't continue to happen. It would then be their job to figure out why it happened and deal with any personnel issues from there.

[T Wolf]

3. In spite of your misgivings, I would still file a complaint with the hospital and

whatever government agency oversees its operations.

You cannot let religious extremists take over his care.

What if you decide on one course of treatment and they, being a Catholic entity, does not honor your wishes? Nip it in the bud NOW.

[geardaddy]

7. Agreed. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

25. Why would you automatically assume the worst instead of kind intentions? Religious extremists?

Do you think they plan to make him a suicide bomber?

You are correct in that it does need to be addressed, but a bit of ash from an extremely common and benign ritual is hardly a reason to :nuke: the people who are caring for one's disabled parent. A disproportionately hostile reaction to a harmless situation only wins enemies, and while it might make you feel satisfied in your convictions, it does not help your loved one.

The matter should be handled, firmly but also respectfully and thoughtfully.

[fishnfla]

26. The priest, after visiting the infirmed....

visits the park across the street and stabs little children with the sharpened end of a crucifix

[jody]

4. Please tell the staff that your father doesn't want any visits from religious people. I hope my

children and grandchildren would do that for me.

Have a great day, :hi:

[w8liftinglady]

6. I always ask my patients if they have any religious preferences and strongly respect them

That was a violation of your dad's rights as a patient.I would speak to administration.

[Seedersandleechers]

8. I would say let it go,

since he has dementia, and the ashes won't do a god damn thing. Now if they try and convert him or ask him to donate to a religious sect - then I bitch.

[Lost in CT]

16. I think that is the stance I will take... But it still irks me.

:hi:

[Warpy]

9. Since you don't believe in that crap any more than your dad does

it's just ashes. Wash his face and move on.

However, you might want to remind staff that he isn't Catholic and shouldn't receive any Catholic sacraments. They'll get the point.

[Gormy Cuss]

10. Wash off the ashes and casually mention to a nurse that you were surprised to see the ashes

since he expressedly indicated that he didn't want visitations from priests.

And BTW, many Anglicans (but not all ) do mark Ash Wednesday with imposition of ashes.

[SheilaT]

11. Do not let it go.

Do politely inquire if their policy is to do the ashes thing with all patients, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof.

Write letters to the hospital administrators and the Board of Directors, as well as to the archbishop of whatever diocese the hospital is in. Although I was raised Catholic myself, I don't recall if there's any official Church teaching about who should and should not get the ashes, or if all who want it are welcome. And even if the latter, your father would not have wanted the ashes.

See if you can transfer him to a non-religious hospital soon.

The arrogance of doing the ashes thing on someone who had rejected priest visits upon check-in is stunning. But the the arrogance of many religions and religious people is breath-taking.

[BonnieJW]

13. Ask to speak to the patient liaison.

I would definitely report this. It's unconscionable to do this to someone without their permission.

[Lost in CT]

15. I am thinking along those lines.

Unfortunately as a person with dementia he really can not give his permission for anything.

It is up to the family to recall his past and interpret what his wishes would be.

[readmoreoften]

24. That is good advice.

[SmileyRose]

34. This is exactly the kind of thing patient liasons are for.

Just explain the mixup and ask to make sure he doesn't get any more chaplain visits. They will take care of it.

[Lance_Boyle]

14. contact the local news muckraker

and tell them someone is smearing dirt on patients' faces all over this hospital. (gg)

Seriously, I'd be in touch with the hospital's clinical ethics consultant, or possibly even the chaplain. Despite being religious fellows, hospital chaplains tend to be respectful of all patients. They would certainly be a better point of contact than a nurse or an orderly or whoever happens to be standing closest. Just remember to meet with the chaplain *outside* of your dad's room, given his wishes in that regard. ;-)

Hospitals should have the equivalent of DNR orders for this. A DNSFAOMF order, if you will.

[undeterred]

17. I used to work in a hospital where there was a priest

who was a chaplain. He always walked around with a list of Catholics who he would visit and bring communion to. It was not a religious hospital, but I had no problem with it.

What bothered me was that he never even said hello to any of the other patients. He also knew which nurses and doctors were Catholic. If you weren't on the list, he wouldn't even say hello, even though he saw you every single day. I always thought he just saw the flames of hell when he looked at non-Catholics.

[and-justice-for-all]

20. What a rude prick...

He cant talk to people unless they are in the same club? rude.

[undeterred]

21. Yeah, if you're going to be a hospital chaplain

act like you care about people. At least pretend.

[Lost in CT]

31. I like that "At least pretend"

I have met priests like that (and esp. religious laypeople) and it makes me shake my head to this day.

[and-justice-for-all]

18. Just remember it is meaningless nonsense...

and if you want to talk to the director of the hospital, go ahead. It is also rude for them to assume that everyone is religious...The priest has no bearing on your fathers care either, so dont worry aboout that.

Take one of your dad's Hitchens books and leave it somewhere visible: Like "The Atheist Handbook" or "god is not great". That way you dont have to say anything, you just leaving them a sign.

[elleng]

19. No official complaint,

but ask nearby supervisor whether they KNOW of his desire for 'no priest visits' or whatever, and request NONE in future, politely.

[Maru Kitteh]

22. I would start with the assumption that there was a well-meaning misunderstanding. Assume good

intentions. Ask to find out who would oversee such matters in a kind and respectful way, tell them that you think there's been some kind of misunderstanding and reassure them that you realize they meant to do well, and gently but firmly assert your father's wishes for him.

Best of luck to you, and thanks for taking care of your dad. It's a demanding task, but a noble one, and it sounds like you're doing a great job. :hug:

[Zhade]

29. Well-meaning arrogance, maybe.

NT!

[ismnotwasm]

27. I would complain

To social services or hospital administration. They may have a hospital family council.

A little bit of ashes may seem like no big deal to some, but it's a clear violation of patient rights. I feel strongly that religious wishes, or lack of them, should be honored as a matter of principle anyway.

What if they get a Jehovah's Witness, one who does not want blood products? Many if not most JW's feel that blood is prohibited biblically. Catholics do not.

We deal with that (JW's)issue more often that you'd think where I work. Making the hospital aware of it's insensitivity will only help someone else.

[Bigmack]

28. When Ms. Bigmack was hurt...

in an accident - head injury - the Apprentice Chaplain dropped in on her while I was at lunch. (I had already moved the Gideon bible out of the room and indicated we wanted no religious visitors.)

When I got back from lunch, Ms Bigmack had the poor creature tied up in semantic/philosophical knots. Combine Ms. Bigmack's normal - and deadly - debating skills with a head injury that caused verbal diarrhea, and you get disaster for the Apprentice.

I got the Apprentice out of there before he lost his religion.

[Still Sensible]

30. I suggest you let it go

It won't do him any good, except perhaps symbolically. Obviously the hospital should have honored the "No Priest" selection on the admission form, but I don't think there is anything to be gained protesting after the fact.

[REP]

32. Ask why your father's face was allowed to be so dirty

Tell them that you do not wish to see your father's face marred with dirt again, thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. In a reasonable and calm manner talk to the administration

it may have been a mistake, aka somebody just went ahead and did it to everybody

And whoever did, didn't read this on his record

It might not have been an innocent mistake but I'd assume it was, being Jewish and working with a bunch of nuns who were the nurses at the red cross hospital I saw them go on automatic a couple times

THey were well intentioned...

I'll leave it at that

[McCamy Taylor]

35. Tell them that he does not want Catholic rites or services. What if he is alert enough to notice?

He will get paranoid and angry and it will interfere with the treatment of his dementia. If they force religious observation on him, that is a violation of his autonomy, just the same as if they force medical treatment on him that he has refused in advance, like certain life sustaining treatments if he has signed a living will. It makes no difference if it is for his soul or for his medical condition. Priests have the same obligation to respect an individuals wishes that medical professionals do. They can not become paternalistic just because someone becomes delirious or unconscious and can not say no. It is a breech of professional ethics.

If it was a clerical error, then the system needs to be corrected so that it does not happen again, An atheist or a member of a different Christian sect will not object so much. What if your dad was Jewish? You will preventing a worse problem for someone else.

[Vickers]

36. If your dad is anything like my dad (RIP) he is laughing inside.

:thumbsup:

[RB TexLa]

37. Why would Anglicans under no circumstances celebrate Ash Wednesday?

It's in the Book of Common Prayers as a day of fasting. Maybe not all use the ashes but the liturgies of the Catholic church and the Anglican communion are practically the same for Ash Wednesday masses.

I know that doesn't change the situation with your father due to his atheism, which I think should be respected by the staff and the clergy at the hospital.

I'd hope it's only a mix up in that one does not have to be Catholic to receive ashes on Ash Wednesday. It's not a sacrament of the church and is something given to anyone who shows up at a mass wishing to receive them. Hopefully that was why it happened, perhaps they didn't check "affiliations" the way they would when say giving communion.

[mwooldri]

38. Anglicans DO celebrate Ash Wednesday...

My home church celebrates it twice that day: once at noon using 1662 book of common prayer, and at 8pm they did Choral Communion - both time with imposition of ashes.