How do you refute this common RW talkingpoint?

[SHRED]

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"The highest earners top 1% in our country pay 50% of *ALL* taxes"
" The wealthy pay the majority of taxes"

Or words to that affect.
You here phrases like this constantly from the rightwing.
It's as if they are trying to invoke "sympathy" from us towards multi-millionaires.

WTF?


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[stray cat]

1. It shows how disparate their income is - they play the aboslulte lowest percentage

and still make up 50% of all the money. That is extreme wealth! Why should a secretary pay 25% of her income in taxes while Trump pays 5% eventhough the sum he pays may be more(numbers completely arbitrary)

[NRaleighLiberal]

2. It is about people's philosophy - do we lift everyone up, or do we allow a few to be filthy rich?

And that to me is the rub - are we a world community, or is it just dog eat dog...survival of the richest/luckiest?

At some point, like many of these thorny issues, it is about personal values.

[Joe Fields]

3. You don't think they have tax shelters?

With all of the tax loopholes, they probably pay less, percentagewise than you and me.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Depends On Whether Social Security Is A Tax

Most righties think Social Security is a scam, simply a tax. Thy're correct in that it looks more like a tax than it does anything else.

Here's a condensed version of an email exchange with a far-right friend of mine yesterday:

Me: Is Social Security something that goes into a lock box for us to take out, is is it really just a tax?
Friend: It's a tax, you socialist loon.
Me: OK, in that case the vast bulk of federal taxes are paid by the middle class, because most Americans pay far more in Social Security payments than they do on federal taxes. As Warren Buffet pointed out, the wealthiest Americans pay only 18% in federal taxes, while his secretary (and others in the middle class) pay more than 30%. Those figures that you cite assume that Social Security is not a tax.

That was the end of the email chain - I think that he could not find a way to counter.

[deaniac21]

22. SS is collected and spent. Every year.

[Vickers]

5. Then ask if the people with 90% of the income should be paying 50% of the expenses.

:P

[zipplewrath]

7. Ask about wealth

The right always talks about "income" and income taxes. The top 1% control an amazing amount of wealth, far more than 1%. Their income taxes are one of the few ways for a society to access that wealth. And income taxes are only one of the many taxes that people pay. The lower economic classes pay a much larger portion of their total wealth in total taxes. "to those who receive the most, owe the most".

[surrealAmerican]

26. Nicely put!

I can't say it any better than that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. disparity in wealth doesnt excuse them paying the LOWEST percentage in taxes. nt

[ixion]

8. I refute it for what it is: BS

simple as that.

[lunatica]

9. They pay 50% of all taxes, but they make 95% of the money and should be taxed higher

Then when they say that they create the jobs counter with "That's right so why shouldn't they pay taxes?" which twists it a little by implying that they don't pay taxes at all.

[Spritz57]

10. Another possible avenue. . .

What percentage of the overall nation's wealth is controlled by this top 1%? Contrast that percentage with the tax burden, I believe the results will seem disproportionate.

[tekisui]

11. If they paid fair wages, we could share the tax burden.

No one needs 100 million dollars a year. No one. I don't have any sympathy for them. They are greedy money hoarding, entitled fuckers. I wish they had to pay 100% of all taxes above 4 million dollars.

[NNN0LHI]

12. They don't factor FICA deductions for Social Security into the equation

The FICA deduction was always about the same as my my Federal withholding on my pay check. I bet it is about the same for everyone.

Don

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Despite paying the lowest percentage of their income in taxes

(as everyone else has noted in this thread), the wealthy derive the greatest benefit from government spending. Locally, the fire and police departments protect their highly expensive properties; 90% of the resources of the courts are tied up resolving lawsuits among businesses, etc. Nationally, most farm subsidies go to giant ag corporations; wealthy firms get cost-plus government contracts for everything from pharmaceuticals to bombers and skyscrapers; even SocSec payments end up in the clutches of MallWart.

[leftofthedial]

14. I also try to get them to explain why they are defending the super wealthy,

which leads to further absurdities. Though I must point out that getting them to explain anything is nearly impossible. They get a confused, pained expression and change the subject 99 times out of 100.

[KharmaTrain]

15. Try A Few Of These...

The highest 1% are CORPORATIONS...not individuals. They pay the taxes, the individuals pay far less.

A little simple math is how I usually refute this chestnut. Say you earn 50k a year and are in the 15% bracket...that's $7,500 you owe in taxes (approximate) while a person who makes $500k a year in the 28% bracket pays 140k in taxes. Looks massive no? Now who gets the bigger bite? The person who finishes with only $42,500 a year in their pocket or the one who keeps 360k? Whose gonna be able to afford a new car or nice vacation? Just ask if they'd trade in 42k at 15% vs. 360k at 28k?

I always joke when some yokel throws that argument at me...I ask them if they are close to earning that kind of money. The answer is always No. I then say, don't worry...the rich doesn't intend you to ever make that kind of money, just to use you to protect their wealth. It's fun to watch the head spin.

[librechik]

28. except that corporations haven't paid taxes in years

thus our current predicament--they don't even pay the unfair share they bullied into the tax laws.

[baldguy]

16. They *make* 90% of all income - they *pay* 30% of all taxes.

The middle class makes up the difference.

[RandomThoughts]

17. Well one way to do it

Is pretty tough. You have to get them to think about, then admit what the word 'earn' means.

Basically people making millions say the money is theirs, all theirs, it is their precious earned money, then from there taxes take back some of it.

The truth is a great deal of income at the top range is not earned, it is delivered based on an economic system that has a lopsided top end, capitalism. Free market has always had this small percent that makes alot of money.

But they do not 'earn' it, they are given it by the system. Are they 10,000 times smarter then a teacher, do they work 10,000 times harder, did they study 10,000 times harder to get the job. All the answers are no.

So they don't really 'earn' their entire wage, so taking more of it in taxes is wealth restoration from the wealth redistribution that is inherent in capitalism.

Good luck with this, it is very hard to get them to even admit they understand it. Most either deny it because they already know, and are just making the argument to justify there own self interest, so they wont admit it(people like Sean Hanity know they are lying, they just do it to promote self interest), or they can't let themselves except it.

Just to be fair, many millionaires say that they make more then makes sense, these are usually democrats.

[LiberalFighter]

18. Tax Rates thru the years (Married Filing Separately)

(Year) (Tax Brackets) (Highest Tax Rate) (Amount Taxed)

1932 (54) 63% -- $1,000,000

1936 (33) 79% -- $5,000,000

1939 (33) 79% -- $5,000,000 (WWII started)
1940 (31) 79% -- $5,000,000
1941 (32) 81% -- $5,000,000

1943 (24) 88% -- $ 200,000

1945 (24) 94% -- $ 200,000 (WWII ends)
1946 (24) 91% -- $ 200,000

1952 (24) 92% -- $ 200,000 (First time Head of Household Tax Rate)
1953 (24) 91% -- $ 200,000

1964 (26) 77% -- $ 200,000
1965 (25) 70% -- $ 100,000

1978 (26) 70% -- $ 101,600
1979 (16) 70% -- $ 107,700

1982 (13) 50% -- $ 42,800
1983 (14) 50% -- $ 54,700
1984 (15) 50% -- $ 81,200
1985 (15) 50% -- $ 84,510
1986 (15) 50% -- $ 87,626
1987 (5) 38.5% -- $45,000
1988 (4) 28.0% -- $113,300
1989 (4) 28.0% -- $117,895
1990 (4) 28.0% -- $123,570
1991 (3) 31.0% -- $41,075
1992 (3) 31.0% -- $43,250
1993 (5) 39.6% -- $125,000

1995 (5) 39.6% -- $128,250
1996 (5) 39.6% -- $131,875
1997 (5) 39.6% -- $135,525
1998 (5) 39.6% -- $139,225
1999 (5) 39.6% -- $141,575
2000 (5) 39.6% -- $144,175
2001 (5) 39.1% -- $148,675
2002 (6) 38.6% -- $153,525
2003 (6) 35.0% -- $155,975
2004 (6) 35.0% -- $155,550
2005 (6) 35.0% -- $163,225
2006 (6) 35.0% -- $168,275
2007 (6) 35.0% -- $174,850
2008 (6) 35.0% -- $178,850

[LiberalFighter]

19. The tax rates need to be changed fast so that Bush has to pay more taxes.

[Kansas Wyatt]

25. Could it be that when the rich were taxed a large percentage....

They invested their earnings back into the economy, building things, expanding factories, buying property, spending money on improvements that would better and help the society around them, to avoid paying so much tax money to the government? Which, did serve the purpose of creating jobs and expanding the economy.

But, with low tax rates for the rich, there is no incentive to invest in anything to avoid the higher tax rates. It's not how much they will pay with higher rates, it's how much of an economic boom they will create by avoiding higher tax rates and investing in the actual society around them. Unlike now, where they just milk more obscene income from their money schemes and laugh all the way to the bank, as everything and everyone else decays around them.

The higher tax rates indirectly acted as a deterrent from what has been taking place the last 25 years.

[Ganja Ninja]

20. and yet they still have money left over to donate to Republicans.

[Cary]

21. The best result I've ever achieved is to say:

"It's got to be really horrible, being a billionaire or trillionaire in the United States. The top 1% is so repressed. It's truly pathetic . . ."

But this only takes them back and stuns them temporarily, and we all know how good they are at changing the subject and reverting to ad hominems.

[Bill McBlueState]

23. "Why shouldn't they?"

Forcing RWers to actually reason through their talking points is a good way to score points in an argument without doing much work. Only a few of them are any good at defending their positions.

[Brewman_Jax]

24. The rich/super rich get the greatest return

on their tax dollars. To illustrate, they get to fly, cruise, or drive anywhere and most anytime. Tax dollars support the governmental agencies that support those activities. The poor pay taxes too, and will likely never get to do those things.

[Johonny]

27. exactly

The Rich use the government resources vastly more than the poor.