What are people's impressions about the amount of a certain anti-child

[pnwmom]

sentiment in our society -- even here in D.U.? I'm talking about the people who seem to resent youthful high spirits, or people (even progressives) who don't seem to feel an obligation for all of the children in our society. Has this attitude always been there? Is there less of it now than in years past, or is it worse?

My own children are getting older now, but I rarely am bothered by anything anyone else's child does (in restaurants, planes, etc.) And yet I frequently hear complaints about this sort of thing. Are kids really getting worse? Or are adults getting less tolerant?

Opinions?

[Fresh_Start]

1. As long as I've been voting (more than 25 years)

there were many people who voted against tax increases for funding schools.
Most of those people, of course, didn't have school age children.

[tigereye]

54. and we pay for ignorance in the long-run

those kinds of attitudes have never made any sense to me, and if anyone campaigning that way comes to my door, I send em packing...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

2. It's not exactly anti-child. It's anti-weak. Watch this toon, especially the blackboard sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdFpsUtecog

[Festivito]

63. Our neo-Nazi psyche: hatred of weak: not individually responsible

Trickle down marketing. We then lash the poor child for being of poor parents; deny a school lunch, a decent school lunch, a decently served school lunch, anything to vent our growing anger, that in turn seeds future anger, the anger of a warrior nation.

Individual responsibility - no failures allowed.

[Ohio Joe]

3. I find all children annoying

I have no problem paying taxes for education, underprivileged kids, etc. But... I still find them all annoying.

[TwilightGardener]

13. OK, I laughed.

[pnwmom]

16. And that doesn't bother me.

I think it doesn't because you're just describing your feelings -- not trying to justify them by disparaging kids.

[seabeyond]

30. betcha it is a right back atcha for them. n/t

[Ohio Joe]

46. You would think that but... no

Kids and animals love me. Don't know why but they do.

[seabeyond]

49. ya... me too. but then i love the kids, not so much the dogs. and they always

come to me for lovins, ignoring my boys that want to play with them. so i have to get down and love on them some, all the while groaning and moaning. my boys laugh......

humanizes you, wink

[Posteritatis]

42. Yep. Many of 'em annoy me, but they all need to be protected and cared for (nt)

[SoCalDem]

56. I have 3 grown sons, and I too, find kids extremely annoying

entirely too expensive, and sometimes not worth the trouble,,,but they are a "no-refunds..no-exchanges" item, and they are there with you forever, so somewhere around age 21, we all make our peace with the kid-stuff, and become friends:)..

Antisocial teen years are the impetus to "kick 'em" out and make 'em grow up... sweet-love baby years are to plant a memory in your lizard brain so you don't kill them when they crash your new car or get pregnant at 15 :)

[lukasahero]

59. LOL

I can kind of relate - thanks for having the guts to say it!

I understand the importance of educating our kids and support 100% getting them the best possible education. (The whole cheese sandwich thing has mortified me here today - feed the f'in kids for goddess' sake!)

That said, I am one of those that would prefer not to have to deal with them hanging over the booth waving at me while I'm eating dinner. But since we don't go to places where that's an issue too often, it's no big.

I do get a little frustrated that, as a woman, it seems I am expected to love all children all the time. I'm "just not that into" them... I'm cool with people who are though.

Ack - edited because I can't believe I wrote 'to' instead of 'too'!

[Withywindle]

61. Yeah, I'm kinda with you.

I have no problem with paying taxes for food for kids, school, child care, etcetera - In fact, I'm even willing to pay a little extra for someone else to have to spend time around them, not me.

But it's not as categorical as all that. I think it's kind of ridiculous to either "hate" or "love" children as a group. Children are people--and like all people, some are awesomely cool, some are loathsome little turdburgers, the vast majority are somewhere in between. I try to assess my opinion of children on an individual basis, just like adults.

[annabanana]

4. kids are kids.. Oh there ARE horror stories out there of

Parents who seem to feel that whatever junior is doing is just fine, up to and including seriously interfering with innocent bystanders..

But anyone who has actually HAD a small child or two in tow might be slightly more tolerant of "high spirits" than someone who hasn't.. . .They ain't always so tractable.

[azmouse]

5. I wonder if people have always felt that way and

society has changed enough to make it acceptable now to voice those opinions about children.

[Realityhack]

12. I wonder about that too

We have seen many other things 'trend upward' because it is more acceptable to talk openly about them. I think a lot of this may well have existed before and people just feel like it is ok to shoot their mouths off now.

I also think there is a fair amount of selective memory, incomplete data, and general romanticizing of the past (even the recent past). IMO it is quite dangerous.

[rrneck]

6. I never go in a

resturant alone without a book. The noise and bustle of a public place is part of the package, but I don't need somebody elses kid wandering over to make friends with me. I know it's cute and everything, and it's lovely that the child is outgoing and learning important social skills, but leave me alone. It would be rude for me to say, "go away kid - y'bother me". It is equally rude to allow one's child to disturb others.

Inside voices are also an important concept as well. Yells, squeals, loud giggling, crying, tantrums and all of the other kid stuff are a sizeable distraction, especially in a nice resturant.

Having said that, a friend of mine reminded me that after having been stuck in the house for months with an infant, a night out at a resturant or a movie means a lot more to the parent than it does to me.

So I guess I'd say some acting out is ok, but let's not make it a habit.

[Warpy]

7. I reserve the right to yell "HEY! Knock it off!"

at any brat who is misbehaving in public to the point that I am physically struck. You're just going to have to deal with that.

Kids often need to know that there are different limits for parents and for strangers. What doting parents might see as cute, other people are going to see as unmannerly and irritating.

One of the main jobs of parenthood is training kids to enter the adult world and that means teaching them some manners.

Adults aren't any more or less tolerant than they've always been, some are more and some are less. Kids just need to know where those behavior limits are and what is socially acceptable and what isn't. That doesn't mean keeping them rigidly still and utterly silent. It does mean keeping them seated in a restaurant or plane and teaching them the difference between that outdoor voice and an indoor voice.

[annabanana]

23. A rational parent would encourage you in that hollar. . .

One assumes that a rational parent in that situation wasn't able to SEE what the kid was up to at that particular moment.... A rational parent would be your ally.

[Warpy]

32. Some of them aren't rational, sadly

but the kids are. Show them that limit and they'll respect it unless the parents are total assholes, in which case management will probably eject them.

[ogneopasno]

8. I don't think it's changed at all. I do think individual parents have gotten more permissive, and

that more children are left to fend for themselves when it comes to childrearing (I don't mean neglect, I just mean a lack of good role models), and society notices that. But generally society has a real love-hate relationship to children, just like it does to women.

[gollygee]

9. I think adults have never been that tolerant

In fact, I think it was worse when we were kids. Kids really didn't go to restaurants back then, even. My parents never took us anywhere but McD's or that kind of place. And they were shocked that I'd take a kid to a sit-down restaurant. Any sit-down restaurant.

[rvablue]

10. On the very rare occassion I have an issue like this, it's not the kids that bug me but the

oblivious, permissive and sometimes arrogant parents who bug me.

One example: Being in an extrememly busy restaurant for brunch and Mom and Dad ask a 3-year-old what the want for breakfast, while reading the menu and feeding into to every whim of a tot who doesn't know what they want.....meanwhile the waitress is standing there like a deer in the headlights and other customers have to wait while Johnnie makes up his mind.

When I was 3, my parents already knew what I would eat and what I wouldn't and they would order.

As far as a crying baby goes, doesn't bother me a bit. The baby can't help it.

But a crying 5-year-old screaming at the top of their lungs and the parents just staring out into space bothers me to no end.

Like I said, I have a high tolerance for kids behavior and the instances I get annoyed are RARE and have nothing to do with the kid, but their parents.

On that note:

1) Youthful, high spirits are appreciated by me in all ages.
2) Our obligation to our children as a society is our largest and most important.

[AlCzervik]

11. i like kids, their parents, not so much.

[damonm]

15. Methinks you just nailed it.

[flvegan]

14. Kids aren't getting worse, parents are and kids act out more as a result.

I think. Half the shit I see ever day, be it at the grocery, post office, etc, my mother would not have tolerated from me. I've grown to like kids less because it seems that parenting has gone out the window.

[notadmblnd]

31. parents aren't leading by example. Most of the time the parents are spoiled,

self centered selfish brats themselves. Children are a reflection of their parents. The children see it and behave the same way. I hate to see people take it out on the kids, when it's actually the parents who are the ones that should be spoken to. However, it's much easier to attack the little one, isn't it?

[ConcernedCanuk]

17. kids are worse, no doubt about it - how many kids would dare tell an adult to GFY or STFU??

.
.
.

It's the parents fault to a major degree but also our laws

slap a kid in the face or wash their mouth out with soap?

assault?? - charges can be laid

SPANKING! Now there's a good one - that's assault and battery

my mom would be sentenced to hundreds of years in jail if she had been charged and convicted every time she took a belt, ruler, or whatever else she could beat on us with

I'm not suggesting any parent should be allowed to discipline the way my mother did

but now the KIDS will call the cops if a parent slaps or spanks them for inappropriate behavior

so now kids know

they don't HAVE to listen to ma and pa

and I don't think it's unique to northern Ontario -

if a teenage girl wants to get out of the house, and not work - - GET PREGNANT!!

Then they get on the Mother's allowance/welfare system for the next two decades . .

100 years ago - well think about it

yeah kids are worse - -

[pnwmom]

21. Or maybe it's that parents were worse before.

Beating children with objects is a poor way of instilling self-discipline.

[ConcernedCanuk]

25. Well, in my case it sorta worked the opposite - only hit about 4 people in my 58 years

.
.
.

and that was all in my teens

neither of my brothers are aggressive/violent either

sometimes I almost wish I had more of a temper

not in a violent way, but in an assertive way

I try to reason with unreasonable people

doesn't work

[pnwmom]

34. Many of us grew up with a father like yours. That kind of "discipline" was

common in those days. But I don't think it's what made you what you are. Neither of my sons was hit, and neither has ever hit anyone. (They were far enough apart in age that they weren't slugging each other, even when they were little.)

[ConcernedCanuk]

38. it was my MOTHER that did the hitting - I do not recollect our father EVER hitting us

.
.
.

MOTHER did this while father was at work, NEVER when he was home, and threatened us with "Don't tell your father or you will get worse tomorrow"

We never told our father to his dying days, which was at the age of 95 in summer of 2007

HE NEVER KNEW

I think it was our mistake to have never told him

Or ANYONE for that matter . . .

[pnwmom]

41. Unfortunately in those days telling someone might not have mattered.

Although, reading between the lines, I'm guessing you think your father might have helped. I'm glad you had him then.

[ConcernedCanuk]

47. "I'm guessing you think your father might have helped" - no he would never have believed us

.
.
.

My mother was his second wife, she could do no wrong

nope - Dad would have never believed us pre-teen kids

Mother terrified us, and she knew it

Father worked an hours drive away - so we mostly saw him for breakfast in the AM - sometimes at dinner - and then we were off to our respective bedrooms

Week-ends with Dad were glorious - he spent a lot of time with us teaching us the pleasures of being outdoors - camping and so on

NONE of us would DARE to mention mother's beatings - how could we ever prove this?

kids get bruises all the time . . .

no - our father lived and died never knowing how much his wife abused his children . . .

(sigh)

[pnwmom]

50. If your father wouldn't have believed you kids even if you all confirmed the

same thing, you must have felt helpless indeed.

I'm sorry any child has ever had to live like that. Is this stepmother still around? I hope you are out from under any feeling of obligation to her.

[ConcernedCanuk]

51. I was the first child by MOTHER - so she is not a stepmother to me or my younger brothers

.
.
.

and yes

she is still around

and I am not under any obligation to her - or her to me

Father left her well provided for financially

But I do feel an obligation to my father who has passed away,

because one of his last wishes he expressed to me was to be nice to my mother

so I am nice to her,

distantly polite would be a better description - if not for my father's request, I would be suing her rich fat ass off . .

[LanternWaste]

48. Probably about as many

"...how many kids would dare tell an adult to GFY or STFU??"

Probably about as many kids who have parents or older family members who say use those phrases... and as those phrases are not merely tolerated, but actually encouraged, marketed, and purchased in contemporary adult society, I'd imagine that many, many children will parrots their elders.

[glowing]

18. Some children are getting worse.. some are still wonderful.. but

everyone, including children, have their bad days. In general, life would be much more pleasant if adults enforced manners... but then again many adults do not have manners... so, how would we expect their children to act. I love that Pres. Obama and his wife are good role models for parenting.

[pnwmom]

22. They are indeed! n/t

[Quantess]

19. I do think children are getting into bigger trouble at earlier ages.

But, that may a different topic altogether.

[Still Sensible]

20. I think rebellion is part of it

there seems to be a small percentage of people that rebel against the notion that something is wrong if you don't want children. That is not to say there is anything wrong with not wanting children, just that those people who don't--seem to believe they are looked at differently... so they rebel against the idea.

It is usually true, when someone tells me they don't "want" children, they rather quickly follow up the comment with a somewhat raised voice explanation as if they expect me to bite their head off for it.

[Donnachaidh]

24. We have a LOT more childish Adults to deal with

It's really easy to blame the kids, but the sad fact is that there are lots of adults out there who are childish.

I'd much rather deal with a vibrant kid than a pouty poser who gets their knickers in a knot when a family with kids walks into a restaurant. And then sits in their booth counting *all* the noises and such emanating from the booth the family settled on.

Some grown ups need to grow up and get over themselves.

[AlCzervik]

26. you ain't lying. I was a flight a few years ago, remember when there was still food on them? This

woman got her food but they ran out of potato chips so they gave her corn chips and she flipped the fuck out, yelling at the flight attendants and making a giant ass of herself.

[redqueen]

33. Precisely. (nt)

[etherealtruth]

27. I generally love kids ....

Your kids, my kids .... I love kids.

I tend to agree with a poster earlier in the thread, our society seems to have a problem with the weakest and most vulnerable among us.

[notadmblnd]

28. I keep asking that question. Why do people hate their kids?

I'm serious. I was in a store yesterday, the woman with a little boy (4?) at the cash register, on her phone, in front of me says "where'd that fricken boy go?" The cashier says, he's right here ma'am. The boy had moved from his mother's side to in front of the conveyor belt machine. Then she snarls at the child something about "what have I told you about getting away from me".... I saw that she wasn't going to hit the kid and at that point she walked out of the store and the cashier said to me.. that the woman should quit trying to impress the man she had on the phone and watch her kid.

I asked the cashier at that point; Why do people hate their kids? I told her I love my son, and that he's what I live for. I told her that in this day and age, no one has to bring a child into this world if it's not wanted, and that I just didn't understand what what happened to these parents.

After thinking about it for a while, I've come to the conclusion that single people are getting the message from the people with kids that it's normal to treat children an non humans and they are taking their cue from that.

[SoCalDem]

58. It's only been a short time in history, in which children are "cherished"

In past societies, they were (are?) just a natural consequence of sex, and once here, extra hands to do the work..

until quite recently here, children labored in factories alongside adults..

rich children..royal children may have been fawned over, but poor children have always been less than adored and worshiped.

Mothers instinctually (usually) protect their very young, but even today, there are cultures where girls as young as 8 are "sold"..

[seabeyond]

29. i wonder where all these out of control kids are. 47 yrs on this earth

and i cannot recall one time outraged by a kids behavior. not saying there hasn't been things here and there. but then i run into things here and there with adults too. but no.... restaurants, planes, out and about, i dont have issue with children

yes... i think there is a meme about out of control kids

but miraculously they aren't around me

i hear the worst on this board. didn't know this attitude was so prevalent. was totally shocked and flabbergasted my first few threads, now it is a colossal joke.

BUT... i have allowed my children in on these views and has been very good for them understanding the mind set

if you look at cops, there too is a demonstration of anti child. arrest for all things

i actually teach and encourage my children to walk on the grass

[pnwmom]

36. I know what you mean. I said "rarely" but I can't think of a single example,

off the top of my head -- of being bothered by other people's children.

But I do remember a number of times I've seen parents lash out inappropriately.

[H2O Man]

35. Diseased souls.

They are sick.

[quickesst]

37. Love kids....

...but those parents who have no problem with their children being rude, and destructive when it comes to other people's feelings or property under the guise that they are "just expressing themselves" are not being parents. They are the keepers of a responsibility, and seek the least responsible way to fulfill it. There is nothing wrong with a child who shows respect, and kindness, not only to adults, but to their peers also. Something that is taught, and learned. Thanks.
quickesst

[stuntcat]

39. I pity them

most children are a lot more interesting and nice than most adults.
I'm just glad I'm not their age. I pity them, and the younger they are the more I fear their parents. I have to watch humanity's biggest screw-up ever for the next 40 years but the babies have to watch til 2099.

[Cleita]

40. They don't bother me and I never had children of my own.

As a matter of fact when I have to do a boring task like going to the super market, it brightens my day to watch the children and play smileys with the little tyke sitting in the cart in front of me in the line. However, I come from a culture that is tolerant of and inclusive of children and I grew up that way. Children were always included in everything the family did or where they went, even cocktail parties. There wasn't a social situation that the children weren't included in unless it was late at night and they were already in bed. I think the adults behaved better for that reason too.

[Posteritatis]

43. None myself, but I took a hit with the perspective bat when I met my nephew

Took a second hit when I finally met my second nephew this past weekend. (His being the best-behaved 8-month-old evar in a crowded restaurant was an astonishing - and pleasant - bonus. ;) )

[LanternWaste]

44. I'll never complain about toddlers-- only adults who act like them.

Never been annoyed by children, even their most wild antics in public are little more than background noise to me. I figure that if I allowed a baby's scream to frustrate me, I'd be a pretty weak person overall when the actual trials and tribulations of life were presented to me.

I think adults are simply getting to the point in which we let even the smallest of annoyances and inconveniences to become over-dramatized-- I've seen drivers rage in their cars because they're forced to go ten miles an hour slower than they want to, and my heart pities them. I've seen parents get into fistfights at peewee football games, and I feel a small amount of sorrow for them.

I can only image that the particular adults who allow themselves to get frustrated at a baby's weeping are very self-centered and selfish individuals, who believe their own sense of entitlement and convenience outweighs those of an infant's instincts.

I'll never complain about toddlers-- only adults who act like them.

[kiva]

45. Maybe it depends on the time period you're using.

I'm 53, and the a big difference I see is that we spent very little time 'on view' publicly. My family rarely ate in restaurants--by which I mean may a couple of times a year. My mom wasn't a big shopper, we went downtown maybe once a month--as for grocery shopping, maybe once or twice a week. I didn't fly until I was a teenager, not uncommon for that time. Most of the social things we did as a family were with other families--picnics, family gatherings and other place where there were other kids. Perhaps because we had a lot of downtime at home or with friends, we did tend to behave pretty well in public--and frankly, that was presented to us as the only acceptable public behavior.

As for today, I don't know if there are so many more self-absorbed parents or if it's just that there are the ones who are the most noticeable. I've found that in any public setting you can pretty easily spot the families you don't want to be near--they are the adults who prefer to talk only to each other (not the kids), who chat on their mobiles and ignore what their children are doing (except to add an occasional 'stop that!' when the kids get too loud for them to hear. I have never had a bad experience in a restaurant, plane or any other place with children whose parents are paying attention to them--by which I mean, having real conversations with them, engaging their toddlers in play, and actually focusing on the kids.

[fascisthunter]

52. they just don't get it

[tigereye]

53. it certainly seems like it - I've always been around kids or worked with them,

plus I have one of my own, so to me, children are the future...and it's important to care for them and support them. I do think more parents fail to set limits, but that isn't the fault of the kids.

[SoCalDem]

55. "Caged-rat Syndrome" run amok in our society

The more pressured people get, the more things that "bother" them..:)

[Cerridwen]

57. I'm gonna use my broad brush a moment...

We had a love affair with the idea of children as a status symbol during the 80s that continues today.

All kinds of designer clothes and classes and toys to show off the "tyke who has everything." Children were given things instead of parents' time (it really was the economy). They were going off to boutique pre-schools and on 10 year waiting lists for shi shi college prep schools.

Children were used as extensions of self rather than as growing people in their own right. I think it continues today only today the money isn't flowing like it was then. The "idea" is there but the reality of children doesn't fit that image. Their little status symbol kept puking on their designer threads.

Many people I've known like this, think that other people and their children became the "drain" on the system reagan warned them about and who are (in their minds) the cause of all their problems. *Those* are the people I see today who are so hateful toward other peoples' children.


The parents lost. The kids lost. We all pay the price.

[MiniMe]

60. I like kids OK, I hate groups of kids

Sorry, rode home with a big group of high schoolers on the Metro tonight.

[No.23]

62. If we really, truly cared for our children...

we wouldn't be putting them in the position...

of having to later pay for our current indulgences.

Talk is cheap.

Care for our children, by not putting them in debt for our misdeeds.

[Skidmore]

64. I find it amusing that the anti-child contingent here seems to have

forgotten that they were once children and that someone needed to have conceived and delivered them to this world so they can complain so vociferously.

[Xenotime]

65. People should stop having them. Most don't deserve them.