Oh no, Mr. O

[unhappycamper]

Dear President Obama,

I hate to tell you this, but I think you’ve jumped the shark. 2012 to get out of Iraq? 35,000 ~ 50,000 troops after the drawdown in 2010? 17,000 new troops to Afghanistan?

Perhaps a history lesson is in order. If you recall, President Johnson escalated troop levels in Vietnam in 1965 with the big buildup coming in 1967~1968. The final number of American boots on the ground over there was over a million at the height of the war. We bombed the hell out of them. We decimated them in February, 1968. We defoliated their forests and killed civilians. Vietnam was costing the United States $2 billion a month. We were kicking ass and taking names. And yet we did not ‘win’ that war. For me, Vietnam will be forever known as the Johnson/Nixon war.

We didn't have an exit plan for Vietnam either.

I must digress for a moment. There are 60 seconds in a minute, 1,440 minutes in a day and 365 days in a year. If you multiply those numbers together, you’ll see there are 31,536,000 seconds in a year. Let’s play with those numbers.

If the military budget is $1 trillion dollars a year, we are spending $31,709 per second to keep the war machine (and M-I-C) engaged. If the military budget is ‘only’ $500 billion a year, we are spending $15,854 per second to keep the war machine (and M-I-C) engaged.

By now some of your folks at DoD have had a look at the ‘defense’ budget under dubya. You know about the $355 million dollar F-22s and the $5.3 billion dollar Zumwalt destroyers. You know about the $1 million dollar fancy jeep and mortar on wheels (ITV) that fits in the $68 million dollar MV-22 Osprey. You know about the $6.3 billion dollar USS George H. W. Bush. You know that the new Ford-class aircraft carriers are going to cost at least $11 billion dollars. You know about the two $2.5 billion dollar submarines we build each and every year.

You know the occupations are costing us at least $12 billion a month. And yet you continue with them. In your campaign you said we would be out of Iraq in 16 months. 3 more months are no big deal, unless you are unlucky enough to get wounded or dead in those three months.

As of this morning 4,252 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq and 660 American soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan for a grand total of 4,912 dead Americans in the invasions and occupations of those two countries.

Can we set some sort of a cap on this waste? Can we start withdrawing after 5,000 American soldiers are killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? 6,000? Can we stop spending 15 (or $31) grand a second to _____?


Thanks for your time,

unhappycamper

[PuraVidaDreamin]

1. I'm agreeing with you.

This is unacceptable! A war based on lies that has made the wealthy richer, destroyed the middle class, and destroyed lives both here and
over in Iraq. Troops Home Now! Lets stop throwing away precious tax payer dollars. Transfer that money into creating green jobs here
in America, educating our children and universal healthcare for all Americans. Where is the problem in that?

[zeemike]

2. In defense of Obama

I would just like to point out that we did not just break Iraq and Afghanistan we smashed it, and not just it's infrastructure but it's wold society. And the bush crime family allowed the crooks to pilfer the money allocated to rebuild what we destroyed for two reasons, one to reward his loyal followers and the second to make sure those countries were kept in a state of chaos so the we could have a permanent presence there to insure their oil went to Western oil interest.
Bush had 8 years to install his men in positions of power and it will take years to get rid of them all, and until that happens they can make all kinds of trouble for him and his administration.
Obama could please us all by just giving the orders to pull out and then in Iraq what would take it's place? A Fascist government? Is that what always happens in a power vacuum? In Afghanistan it would be the Talaban which is Fascism on steroids.

The truth is that we broke it and we are responsible for fixing it, and that won't be easy or quick
so I prefer to trust Obama intent and perpouse...at least for now.

[madokie]

3. I agree with you zeemike

Because of us not stopping this early on, possibly by storming the whitehouse even, we own both Afghanistan and Iraq. Whats happened up to this point is at best criminal and by us, you and I, just up and walking away would say we don't give two shits what happens over there. Well I do care, we're talking about innocent people here and thats why I voted for a person who I feel has the makings of what it will take to right these two very wrongs. No one else on the horizon that is even close to the calibre of person we have in our President. I say leave him the fuck alone, trust him to do the job we elected him to do. My better sense also tells me that we'll be out of both places sooner rather than later, there is just a right way to go about it and a wrong way and I feel that President Obama has the capacity to know the difference.
This Obama administration is not a continuation of the bush/cheney administration.
Altho I replyed to you most of this is directed to the OP
peace and have a great day everyone

The Iraqi and the Afghani are innocent in all this death and destruction which we have unleashed upon them. A few bad actors does not give rise to the death and destruction that we've allowed in these two countries and the people there in. The anger should be directed at the responsible parties not the person who is trying to help us fix this very wrong.
just saying

[zeemike]

8. yep you and I are also responsible

And i do not shrink from that responsibility, and neither do you...that is a good thing.

[Taverner]

19. But keep in mind the Iraqis do not want us there

If we are not wanted, why stay?

[zeemike]

20. Because we can't leave without fixing what we broke.

What they don't want is to be occupied,

[Taverner]

21. Sure we can! Especially if they don't want us there!

Honestly, its up to us to PAY to fix it

But us being there fixing it makes about as much sense as having a rape victim's attacker to provide counseling for her

[zeemike]

22. Not a fair analogy.

But we not only destroyed the infrastructure but the government and the social system.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't want us to stay there any longer than it takes to repair the damage that we did, but to just leave the country in chaos would mean the death and suffering of millions of people.

[Taverner]

25. No - I think we can fix it without our presence

Send them $$$, set up a UN mandate, and pay them to take care of it

It's obvious Bush screwed the pooch so much on this mission, nothing we can do will make it better.

[zeemike]

27. If It could be done I would like it

But I am not so sure that is possable...but I am no expert and will defer to his judgment at least for now.

[Taverner]

28. True - but Johnson thought he had good judgement too

[zeemike]

31. Obama's judgment is not compairable to Johnson's

Johnson was quoted as saying "they want a goddam war and we are going to give it to them"

[Taverner]

32. Don't get me wrong - they aren't comparable

But there are those of us who worry he might repeat one of his mistakes

Granted, I know Obama will make better decisions than Mr. "Let's take the reporters into the bathroom while I take a shit" Johnson did.

But building up in the Middle East could very well spell the demise of our country.

[zeemike]

35. I worry about that too.

But looking at the leadership in this country now I have to think that Obama is our best shot of stopping this nonsense.
And I am sure that you already know that.

[Taverner]

37. Yes - I have to keep pinching myself

The "smartest motherfucker in the room" is President

Congress may be a bunch of spineless fools, even if they're our spineless fools - but the President is not

I just worry that we will get bogged down in either country. I worried about that right after 9/11 and never stopped worrying.

Honestly, we want to get Bin Laden? Joint effort between the CIA and the FBI. No military - just cops.

Then, send in a surgical strike team of SEALS when we have verified his location.

[zeemike]

39. I think that is what I would do to if it were possible.

But it was not done by bush (and in my opinion because he wanted to have a monster on the loose to scare people with)
And I would believe that if Obama could he would...notinig would sink the repugs faster than if Obama caught Osama in the first year of his administration and took him alive for trial...
That would be a dream come true for me.

[roody]

33. A right-on analogy

[earth mom]

26. Get real. No one is going to "fix" anything. It's just gonna be more killing. nt

[zeemike]

29. That will be true no matter what we do.

You don't get out of such a colossal mess as this that easily.
It is just a matter of how many die and will die in the future.

[earth mom]

30. Saying the U.S. has to "fix" things in Iraq & Afghanistan is just an excuse to stay.

And killing more people for * & Co's LIE is just something that the U.S. shouldn't participate in any longer.

Also, does Obama really want this to become his Vietnam? He needs to think about that-because the public can & will turn on him on a dime over more unnecessary killing of innocent people.

Enough is enough.

[zeemike]

34. I really do have faith that Obama know that.

But it is not so easy to kill a monster like bush created over night, or even in 5 weeks.
And I hate to say this but it will take years to retrain the military to think like people that respect the rule of law and human rights.
I wish it were otherwise but I fear it is not.

[Turborama]

4. I totally concur. However...

Having previously started - and later added a lot of back-up material to - threads about this side of the debate that went relatively ignored, I was initially reluctant to spend a similar amount of time doing the same again. You, mmadokie, ProgrezivIndie and KharmaTrain have said it so succinctly that I don't think I can add much to what you've all said, anyway.

So, instead of doing that, I'm taking this opportunity to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3744341">link you up with one of those threads, it'll be interesting to hear your opinions on the topics raised...

[ProgrezivIndie]

6. i'm with you on that, zeemike

As a fully retired Navy enlisted type, I abhor the wholly illegal war-in-Iraq, into which BUSH took us. Afghanistan is a different matter, which I view as being justified (if any war can be)... for the purpose of chasing down bin Laden and his al Qaeda cohorts (the perpetrators of 09/11/01 attacks on U.S. soil).

BUSH completely destroyed Iraq; dismantled its government, crippled its infrastructure and civil services, and is responsible for the deaths of a million+, maimings of another million+, permanent displacement of nearly another five-million Iraqis. It would be completely irresponsible for the American people (not just Obama) to *walk away* without helping to see to it that the Iraqi people are once again capable of governing themselves. How one defines that condition will not be easy, and such a definition is certain to be met with disagreement... but I'll trust President Obama to be the judge of same (so long as the movement is toward the EXIT, not entrenchment/escalation).

BUSH is also responsible for our current situation in Afghanistan... turning what should have been a relatively short search & destroy mission into a cluster-fuck! Afghanistan operations should have been completed in a matter of months. We had al Qaeda/bin Laden trapped at Tora Bora... but Tommy Franks, and his superiors (up to an including a CIA plea to the White House) denied the troops necessary for cutting-off the escape route. Then the diversion of critically necessary resources (manpower, machines, interpreters) from Afghanistan to an impending illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq put a hurtin' for certain on our efforts in Afghanistan.

just my 2cents

[zeemike]

11. Welcome to DU

But just a point...We fucked with Afghanistan long ago when we armed the Talaban to fight the Russians during the Reagan years
And that led to a disastrous take over there by the radical Muslims who were as bad as the Nazis or worse.
Obama has a heady task to change all the damage that those things did to us as well as the world...I hope he is smart enough to do it as quickly as possible.

[ProgrezivIndie]

14. no argument from me, on that... furthermore

We (mostly CIA involvement) armed them, trained them, funded them. IOW: ...we created al Qaeda/bin Laden in the process of "aiding opposition to the Soviet invasion" of Afghanistan! We have a history of "creating monsters" through our meddling in others' affairs. Saddam was also a product of our meddling, as we switched from backing IRAN to backing IRAQ in their ongoing disputes.

We need to clean-up the messes we've created, while trying our damnedest to not create any more "monsters" (that may come back to haunt us in another 10-20 years after we've put these two wars to bed). It ain't gonna be easy, and it certainly won't be pretty, but it's something upon which we have a moral responsibility to follow through.

[zeemike]

15. you have not forgotten your history.

And we agree.

[eridani]

13. We are responsible for PAYING for the fix, not actually doing it

The Iraqia would in fact prefer to do it themselves. In 1991 we totally destroyed 95% of their power generating capacity, and they had things back to semi-normal in 18 months. They might have done even better without the embargo.

[LWolf]

23. Good point. nt

[Deja Q]

17. Agreed.

And that, prior to Bush, some politicians were saying the same things as G W B in 2003. (Youtube has a 9 minute speech, in full context, of one politician too, from 1992 (or was it 1993?).)

[KharmaTrain]

5. Welcome To The Pottery Barn...

It's always easier starting a war than ending one...especially one where you never really know who your enemy is (other than the previous regime that was evicted on January 20th) and where there is no real measure of "success". As Thomas Ricks, who is no "war hawk" as some have claimed here points out, the situation in Iraq is far from stable and, as I've long suspected, the various factions are holding their powder until our troops are out and then the final act of the Iraq war will play out. Now our troops can be in the middle of that mess or far away. I'd prefer them home, but in an orderly fashion. You just don't give 150,000 troops plane tickets and bring them home.

Here's the latest shit sandwich. President Obama is trying to avoid Clinton's mistake of being too "pushy" with the military...letting them decide the situation and he's taking their advice. Now will that be the same position in six months? I tend to believe these numbers are abstract as it will depend on a lot of circumstances unforseen...including our own economic mess.

I want our troops out, but I want them out safe. The fact we're seeing the beginning of the end is a good start, but there's still a long way to go. More important is to bring justice to those who created this disaster.

[global1]

16. Glad You Mentioned The Pottery Barn - You Break It - You Bought It.....

President Obama is taking over the payments because *Co got foreclosed on. He's renegotiated a deal with the bank to pay less - but still nevertheless - he has to finish making the payments.

The lesson to be learned is to never start the war in the first place.

President Obama is hitting clean-up. The team is losing by a lot of runs. Even if he hits a grand slam - he's not going to win it for the team. Fortunately - he might have 1 or 2 more at bats before the game ends. We'll have to see what happens.

[jonnyblitz]

7. great post. I completely concur. k & r

:hi:

[Cerridwen]

9. You know what I wonder, unhappycamper?

I wonder if "we" could change the mission.

As you and others know, we broke it, broke it bad.

Could we change the mission to one of rebuilding? Change those weapons into "plow shares" and help the Iraqi people rebuild what we destroyed. Of course, I think should we do so, we should do so "following their lead."

Would our troops be safe? Would it be possible? I don't know that it would cost any more than what we spend now. If we "have" to spend it, couldn't we spend it on rebuilding rather than destroying?

If we must stay there, could we stay as support rather than as an occupying army?

That's what I wonder.

[4lbs]

10. Many of the Sunnis in Iraq are worried that if the US leaves, the Iraqi security force,

which is mostly Shiite, will take massive retribution on them for more than two decades of Saddam's dictatorial rule.

The Kurds also are worried about violence increasing their region.

In addition, there have been quite a few stories about corruption in the Iraq security force. For example, commanders that furlough their troops one day a week, don't pay them for that day, and pocket that money for themselves instead.

All that needs to be sorted out.

[rug]

12. And if and when he shifts the August 31, 2010 date, this will be his "Read my lips" moment.

[ProgrezivIndie]

18. unhappycamper...

Through my earlier comments here, I've tried to make it clear that I definitely favor a more conservative/measured approach toward completely withdrawing from Iraq. However; I am not unsympathetic to the points which you've made so well. Just recently, the Iraqi PM said his security forces "are ready to take over, from the Americans" (see: http://tinyurl.com/dejgbp)

Obama, as our CiC, needs to take advantage of such talk. How? By PULLING BACK our troops, to safe havens... far from the fray (i.e., the streets and alleyways)... and holding them both in reserve and deference to the Iraqi Security Force (leaving U.S. troops far less exposed to snipers, IEDs, suicide bombers, etc.). Let the Iraqi Security Force, and their government, sort it out... so long as they are "holding their own". From within our safer haven vantage points, we could then bring in even more Iraqi citizens to be trained & equipped... then to join their stout-hearted brethren, in bringing final peace & stability (in so far as that is possible, in their culture and reality).

I believe that there is no substitute for fighting *FOR* one's country (instead of against occupiers)... and that will serve as the fastest means toward resolution. IOW: it is up to the Iraqi people, NOT the United States, to determine what the final features of the face of their nation, will look like. It's not very smart of us to take sides, and force the outcomes which we would prefer (as BUSH was hell-bent on achieving)... for we only create yet more "monsters" with which we will have to deal in the future.

As for the obscene amounts of money that we expend on the greed-mongers within the military-industrial sector... we can do better, we must do better. We need to cut programs that are determined to be going nowhere. We need to PENALIZE and not REWARD cost-over runs. We need to pay significant bonuses for tested & proven-successful projects that come in well under specified time frames and originally allocated budgets. But we also need improvements in our weaponry's range & effectiveness (and bigger is not always better--we won the sea war for independence BECAUSE we were both smaller & faster than was the British fleet). IOW: we need to take a much smarter approach, and that's for certain (we simply can no longer afford defense budgets which help to bankrupt our nation).

As for Afghanistan (and now Pakistan--because BUSH failed to do the job, in the most miserable way imaginable)... we need to DEFINE the objective, and set about its completion posthaste. There should be no more lolly-gagging mentality (as was the BUSH approach, in favor of feeding his military-industrial sector fat cats)!

I am no expert on such matters, but I am confident that greater minds than mine CAN and WILL find the necessary solutions... so long as we hold this administration's feet to the fire... and I think that President Obama will be receptive to such pressure. IOW: I don't think were looking at 2011/2012, I more inclined believe the final withdraw date could be much shorter (if we focus on an Iraqi solution, rather than insisting on one of our own).

Finally, I just want to say that I much prefer to NOT see another one of our troops killed or maimed while cleaning up the mess which the WAR CRIMINAL BUSH administration has left to Obama. And regarding this matter, I want the WAR CRIMINALS held fully accountable (for this too I believe to be necessary part of restoring this nation's ideals... strongly tied, once again, to the roots from which we've sprung).

just my 2cents

[closeupready]

24. Yep. K&R.

Big time.

[Mari333]

36. kicked and r

dont forget the frigging cost of both occupations..we will be bankrupt in no time as long as we continue to be a bullying military empire...

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

[blues90]

38. I agree ,and at the same time I don't know

We sit here knowing these so called wars were entered using lies. We also sit here not knowing what we have over there in equipment or ammo or guns , tanks, you name it.

All we have seen since they enter Iraq and Afghanistan are a few small views of one enormous picture.

All I do know is we have no business being here and the Iraqi people wanted us out long ago and we still are told by Obama that we still need to stay there and go into Afghanistan because of terrorist groups we created.

I have personally reached the point that I don't trust any politician no matter what side they claim to be on and why should I since most have lied or stood back and not represented the wishes of the people who trusted in them and put them there in the first place , not to leave out they most of them take lobby money and fill their pockets just like the banks and wall street have.

We were told multiple reasons why impeachment was off the table and now reasons why they just might look into this and this crap will never end.

While they are all playing their political games it is the people who suffer as always. Most of the people out here in the real world played by the rules and end up as always getting shit upon , we lose and the politician walks away well off and with the life of ease until they die.

WE live in a world of kings and queens and they all reside in DC at our expense .

I don't expent any politician living in a mansion to see what the common person is dealing with because they are a world removed from us. I don't want to see their fucking photo's or look at them as idols by a long shot.

[latebloomer]

40. K&R

You are so right. It's a quagmire, and we can't afford to keep throwing away lives and money.