I just don't think folks don't understand, so let me explain as best as I can

[The Straight Story]

My little boy. I held him so many nights. Changed his diapers, fed him, walked him to school.

I heard him tell me his dreams. Watched his favorite shows with him. Hugged him. Held him. Read to him.

And now he is heading off to war soon. And my youngest son will be following suit shortly (June is when my youngest boy heads to boot camp).

All those years as dad I tried to protect them. Then I lost them. Then finally found them again (Divorce, long story).

My oldest son has two kids and a wife. He has grown up, makes his own decisions.

And now his life is in the hands of the people we elected. I can't do much at his point to protect him - but I did what I could and helped elect democrats into power.

And while they sit on the hill arguing over AIG and bonuses, taxes, budgets, and so on - and while our major TV networks spend their 24 hours a day coverage complaining about something Obama said or wall street - he is getting ready to head off to war.

Did we forget about those wars we were in? It almost seems like it.

People a world away are dying, kids are losing parents, kids are being killed. Our own kids are dying, being injured physically, and mentally.

All the while we seem stuck in the latest news of the day on the economy.

We are in two wars right now, and the news is focused on what one man says and bonuses.

These wars have been ignored for years. Why?

Even before I had a vested interest in these wars I was against them.

People are dying, being maimed, suffering day in and out because of our wars.

When will we stop them?

[givemebackmycountry]

1. Straight

Sadly, I'm thinking about a third of America does not even know we are fighting two so called "wars".
They couldn't find Iraq or Afghanistan on a map with a 8 hour course at the local DMV.

I can only say this my friend...

I hope that they will be in and out, and back to you as quickly as possible.
I hope it's over shortly.
I hope that we will be discussing better days, and I hope it's soon.

[Naturyl]

2. I'm going to be frank with you because I think you can handle it.

You should have made certain, through in-home education, that your kids would never even consider something like this. You have to raise kids with the proper values and priorities while they are young, so they don't make these unfortunate decisions when they grow up.

That being said, maybe you simply didn't have that opportunity. I dunno. Now that it's too late, I do hope they will come back safe and will be involved in as little combat as possible.

[Vickers]

4. Just curious...do you have kids?

I do, and you just never know WHAT the fuck they will do. They surprise me (good AND bad) every day.

FTR, my parents quietly discouraged military service, and yet 3 of the 4 boys in my family ended up in the military (including me).

I try to instill good values in my kids, but once they reach their majority it's pretty much a crap shoot.

Anywho, hope the OP's kids get into a good career field and keep their heads down.

[Uzybone]

7. You are an extremely judgemental person

you must be pathetic in real life.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Uzybone]

9. You may not be judgemental, but that post is horrible

the OP is lamenting the fact his child is headed off to war and you respond by calling him a bad parent. Nice.

[Naturyl]

13. You mischaracterize it.

I never said he was a "bad parent" and I acknowledge that it may not have even been possible for him to do what I suggested.

I am simply pointing out that children are products of their environment - particularly the home environment. If they are taught that military service is out of the question, they won't enlist. Can this be debated?

[AlCzervik]

14. if children are taught only abstinence will they still not have sex? Yes children are

products of their environment but that doesn't mean they're going to toe the family line on everything. you were kid once, did you follow all of your parents directives, all of them?

[Naturyl]

15. Sex is different. It's a biological imperative.

Naturally, I did not always listen to my parents in various small matters. However, when it comes to the big stuff (values and priorities in life), I turned out quite a bit like my folks, for better or worse. I turned out the way I was raised to turn out, as most people do.

[Vickers]

16. "Can this be debated?"

See post #4 above (a response to you, from me).

Maybe it can't be debated (heh!), but it happens.

[merh]

12. What part of

All those years as dad I tried to protect them. Then I lost them. Then finally found them again (Divorce, long story).

do you not get?

And even if he had not "lost them", my parents taught me certain things but I have a mind of my own and did not follow the leads in every way. Your absolutes are absolutely ridiculous.

[EmilyAnne]

18. I think the hardest and most intimidating part of being a parent is understanding that at some point

all of the things you tried to teach your child, all of the values you tried to instill, will be scrutinized, tested, dismissed, rebelled against or just plain forgotten.
When it comes down to it, the best thing you can hope for is a child that knows he or she is loved unconditionally and has the confidence to make some good decisions and learn something from the bad ones.
Like the OP said, "he has grown up, makes his own decisions." Its so hard to imagine the pain of watching your child make such a decision, but so many things have gone into making this man who he now is. He also has other concerns such as supporting his children that may have factored into his decision.

The most important thing to me is, since we will always have young men and women joining the military, that we never, ever put these peoples' lives in jeopardy over frivolous claims. Their promise to protect and defend must be answered with the promise to never ask them risk their lives unless it is a truly just and unavoidable task.

I don't know what Obama can do at this point.
As much as I like to envision and instant, 100% troop withdrawal, (Tomorrow morning, please) I don't understand the vulnerabilities or implications of doing that.
I trust that Obama cares about the troops and wants them home with their families. How to get them home is the problem he is dealing with.
Sadly, I really think that either Bush didn't give a shit about them or he was so incapable of empathy that he viewed them as one dimensional characters who wore cool costumes.

[MicaelS]

20. If you ever have kids, Karma for you

Would be they grow up to be Evangelical Christians. Every one of them.

[Naturyl]

21. Nice fantasy, but they wouldn't.

And even if they did, disowning is easily done. I've disowned family before.

People wonder why all the nonsense in the world continues, yet they have no principles.

[skygazer]

23. Nice

You tell someone lamenting the fact that his son is going off to war that it's perfectly simple to keep that from happening and you say that disowning your own child is "easily done."

You either live in a complete fantasy land or you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

[Naturyl]

33. Okie-dokey.

Different strokes for different folks.

[donheld]

40. I'm so glad I don't know you

Anyone whom you've disowned should be grateful.
Of Course I could never disown anyone.
I've never owned anyone to begin with.

[Naturyl]

41. Ditto.

Look, I made it clear I'm not pressing anything on anyone, and I tried to close this line of conversation respectfully. You apparently weren't satisfied. That's your problem, not mine.

I don't win popularity contests, and thank the stars for that. Principles aren't popular.

[donheld]

42. You have principles?

Yea whatever.

[Naturyl]

43. Take a hike.

Yeah, I have principles. They were outlined in my first post which seems to have angered so many of you.

These wars are wrong and anyone who signs up to fight them is either ignorant, foolish, or improperly raised. That's where I stand. You don't like it? Tough.

I'm not normally this hostile but some of you are really getting on my nerves. The OP invited opinions and I gave mine. That's life. Get over it, and get a grip.

Someone does not lack principles simply because you dislike their views. Even republicans have principles. You and I simply disagree with them.

Class dismissed. Go get bent.

[NeedleCast]

27. So joining the military demonstrates improper values?

[Stargazer09]

31. I guess some people see it that way

I thought the majority of our country still saw the military in a favorable light, despite the wars we're being forced to fight.

I was wrong. Some people still spit on military members, I guess, since they see military service as something to teach your children to avoid at all cost.

[Marrah_G]

28. Wow- You must live in alternate reality where teenagers do what their parents want them too

[Stargazer09]

29. So, you're saying that there is something WRONG

With serving in our country's military? That the author of the OP should have taught his children to AVOID serving our country?

"You have to raise kids with the proper values and priorities while they are young, so they don't make these unfortunate decisions when they grow up." :puke:

[Naturyl]

34. Are these wars serving our country?

Nope, they are not. These wars are not doing anyone any good.

[Stargazer09]

37. No, but our military members don't have a lot of choice

Many joined right after 9/11, thinking that they would be doing the right thing and going after the people responsible for the attacks on our fellow Americans. There is NOTHING WRONG with people joining the military to serve our country.

Unfortunately, GWB and his cronies abused our military and sent them to do things they were never trained to do. That doesn't make the military a bad choice; it does make the voters who elected GWB partly responsible for what our military is being forced to do.

I remember my mom telling me about her father (my grandfather, obviously). He spent the last decades of his life feeling ashamed that he was unable to serve in the military during WWII. He had a valid reason (he had lost an eye in a construction accident), but he still felt that he let down his country at a time of need. Many of my fellow military members feel the same away about the attacks against our country in 2001, and despite the politics, they are proud to say that they served when they thought our country was in danger. I know I am.

[Naturyl]

38. That's fine, yours is a valid perspective.

I don't want to argue this and I respect that there are viewpoints different than my own.

[hfojvt]

32. I am sorta reminded of the letter at the end of this webpage

http://www.jeanhay.com/OTHER/SCOTT.HTM

"Dear John:

We live in a society of butchers and murderers. we butcher fellow creatures for food and for sport, and murder fellow humans for pelf and for power. Years ago you and Mary decided to go to work for the plunderers and killers who run our social system. In return, you got considerable comfort, a measure of recognition and some power. Then they murdered your beloved son. That was part of the price you paid for living in a world run by plunderers and killers. No use blinking the facts. You know them as well or better than I do.

When I wrote Mary, I did not put it quite so baldly as this, but I stated the issue clearly enough so that she might get the point, learn the bitter lesson and profit by it. You asked me to cancel that letter. I agreed.

Now you ask me to tell one of our conventional social lies, --to write and say it is a nice book and thank her for sending it. Destroy the letter? Yes, if you wish. That is a negative lie--dodging the issue by saying nothing about it. Write a socially correct note, pretending to express a sentiment I do not feel? No. That is a positive lie and I will have no part in telling it.

You and I (and Mary) are getting on in years. We should have learned to face the music. I am all for facing it here and now. I either say what I think or I say nothing. I think we live in a community built on lies, robbery, butchery and murder. There is no dodging the issue. I also think that the lying, robbery, butchery and murder will continue till we face the facts, turn about and reshape our lives. Again there is no dodging.

Also, I say it is time we stood up and told each other the truth, without fear of favor … This is grim doctrine, but we live in a grim world where millions of young victims are paying with their lives for ignorance, stupidity, greed, hypocrisy and connivance. Maybe it is wiser to tell Mary, after all."


edit: actually the first letter might be more relevant

"So long," I wrote her, "as fine, capable young men respond thus to the call of the big shots, destroying and murdering at the word of command, fine young men will be snuffed out in their early years, leaving mothers and wives to lament their loss. This holds true whether they respond to the orders of Roosevelt, Hitler, or any other commander-in-chief. It is up to the fine young men and those who love them to learn this lesson and to find and follow a way of life that is not built upon organized destruction and mass murder."

[Naturyl]

35. Exactly. Thank you.

I'm glad someone sees what I was getting at.

[GiveMeFreedom]

36. I served.....

and my parents did their damn best, considering. Serving one's country is not WRONG and making a decision to do so is not WRONG. Although the current conflicts are just as horrible as any that the United States has been involved in, the men and women in uniform, who serve, do not start them. I have never apologized for my 4 years of active duty and never will, I don't look back and see myself as having made a bad decision, contrary to what you believe. However, you should feel fucking god damn lucky that there are people who are willing to defend your freedom to post your opinion here and apologize to those that died to keep the constitution and the practice of this democracy alive. If we were all in the same frame of mind as you.... well we'd be speaking a different language, können Sie Deutsches sprechen?

[The Straight Story]

39. Well

Their mom and I were divorced when my oldest was about 10.

I didn't have the opportunity to have a lot of input, she got custody. Then I did not see them for 8 years, until after she died. And even then it took time until my oldest sought me out.

I paid my child support (even paid about 2k more than I was supposed to because she lied about things) and did the best I could.

I then finally find my kids and they were messed up. Mom has died, step dad a jerk, and they were lied to for years about me.

I finally find them and have a relationship with them and now this.

Sometimes it is all just too much for me.

[juajen]

3. Unfortunately, the powers that be don't want the wars stopped.

This is how they make billions and billions of dollars, at the expense of your sons and you, and thousands upon thousand of others in the world. Sadly, I don't believe it stopped with Obama.

[No.23]

5. I feel for you, sir.

And wonder if I will find myself in the same situation in a few years.

I feel for you indeed,

Especially since I'm a wannabe-Quaker, and try to act like one as a parent.

I do have a question for the parents who empathize with the OP and have children:

do you permit them to play the various "shoot-'em-up" games that are out there?

I ask because I personally see a link between the depersonalization of killing that those games include and the the depersonalization of killing an enemy during war.

If you care to answer.

My thoughts are with your son and you.

[terisan]

6. Your post is a reminder. I think that you might keep focusing on the wars-the so-called

news from cable and television is an addiction and is, unfortunately, an addiction to watching and listening to what a corporation wants people to listen and see, and think.

If you can keep open a line of communication with them and let people know what is happening it might help people here refocus.

Glad you got together with them again.

[Gregorian]

10. My answer was "hell no, I won't go".

It's that simple. We'll stop them when we stop.

I empathize with you. I'm able to feel your pain. I also have pain. I'm watching the world around me die. So when I say what I said it's not with coldness.

I strongly advise that you stop. I was willing to go to jail. My neighbor left for Canada. And he never came back.

I see so many people who feel they don't have a choice. I will never put on a uniform. Never.

[OwnedByFerrets]

There are two forgotten wars, one in Iraq and one in Afganistan...

forgotten by all except those who have loved ones and friends there. Its horrible.

[Mithreal]

25. Don't forget the war profiteers, oops I mean contractors.

My Democratic Congressman prefers they are called contractors.

[Fleshdancer]

11. My heart goes out to you

I don't know your pain personally, but I have seen it in the eyes of my parents because of my brother. For what it's worth, many of us are paying attention even if the MSM isn't.

Your sons are in my thoughts and I wish them well.

:hug:

[MrSlayer]

17. When every last penny has been wrung out of the system for them.

That's when the wars will stop. War is a big profit business for a few extremely powerful people. But of course you know this.

[EmilyAnne]

19. I've been really emotional and sentimental all day, reminiscing about someone I loved very much who

died a few years ago.

Thank you for reminding me that there are a lot of people who are happy, healthy and alive that we need to all fight for!
My sincerest thoughts are with you, your sons and their families.

My mother, having wasted most of her life and brains as a Republican, recently came out of it and now looks back thinking, "what the hell was wrong with me?"
One of the most interesting things she said to me during the primaries was how disgusting is was that anytime she talked to other people like her who had finally had enough of the Republicans, they really seemed to only be upset because of the evaporation of their 401Ks.
The economy was the factor that changed them. More importantly, their personal economies.
She was upset that the wars really didn't seem to register to the very same people who were so crazy about the "support the troops" paraphernalia.
You are so right about people being much more caught up with the economy than the wars.

[silverojo]

22. These wars are fought by VOLUNTEERS

He's not your little boy anymore. He's a grown man, with the right to make his own decisions.

Every day, policemen/women go out on the beat, risking their lives during wartime AND peace. There are dangerous occupations, and there are the people who feel they can help their community and their country by doing these jobs.

Victims of the economy, on the other hand, are NOT volunteers. They're helpless pawns, losing their homes, watching their lives being destroyed.

Your sense of priorities is skewed, if you really think that the economy is unimportant, compared to the wars...simply because your son is involved.

Let him grow up, and be proud of him. You could honor him most by learning from his example, and awakening to the urge to defend the defenseless.

[Mithreal]

26. Backdoor draft, stop loss, national guard, opportunity-less?

Overall I agree with your sentiment. "Let him grow up, and be proud of him."

[Name removed]

24. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[checks-n-balances]

30. My heart goes out to you, TSS

Having followed your posts on DU, I know that life has taken quite a toll on you, and now this. Even if things go all right for them, you're in grief over these wars, as you've always been, and now it's hitting home personally for you. As another poster said, may they be able to return quickly with the minimum of harm.

It seems that some of the posters on this thread are missing your point in a couple of ways. As with lots of topics around here, sometimes it's just easier to blame the victim and fling the guilt around while we should be focusing on at least keeping these wars in the consciousness of the public, even while the corporate media does not. I agree with what some of the posters are saying about war profiteers, but it's no consolation, is it?

I may be wrong, but it seems that, right now, you are asking, "When..?" (as in "When is this madness going to stop") in the same way that Bob Dylan asked the question, "How many..?" We want to think that Obama is going to do something about the wars that he didn't start, but will he? Whether the question, "Why?" is answerable in this case, we still must continue to ask it, as a protest. When we stop asking it, we lose our souls and stop being human.

We can't ever stop opposing these wars. They are tragic and destroy the future of the earth and those who inhabit it.

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many years can a mountain exist
Before it's washed to the sea?
Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.