How is Obesity an issue?

[The Straight Story]

Whether it be from genetics, how much (and what) you eat, lack of exercise, whatever...

How is that the business of anyone else how you are or choose to be?

When is something a 'public' health issue? I can see the H1N1 being a public issue, but an individuals' weight?

What else will be a public health risk we need to 'deal' with? Don't eat enough blue berries (they have many health benefits)?

I can see from an education view point caring and trying to offer relevant data to an individual who is concerned with such issues.

It just seems like it has become the norm that those who are not as healthy as some have issues and there is a push to 'fix' them. They will be happier, live longer, etc if they just listen and do what we say.

I think, more and more - the push is from health care agencies who want to trim costs and increase profits. If they can make people conform to their view of how they should live they will save a lot of money.

Individuality and personal choice are slowly slipping away in favor of the almighty dollar and corporations who want to promote an image and save dollars.

Your life. Your choices. You being you, and not living for someone else - whether they be a RW fundie preacher or someone in an office defining how you could better serve society by being how they think you should be.

They have made it now more about themselves and what they want or need, and tied you into it. Have made you and your life an integral part of their needs and desires.

Oh - and these same people complaining about weight and health care issues are the same ones who are fighting against single payer health care - even though it would help you it won't help them in their quest for power and money.

Obesity is not the issue we need to be worrying about, private health care which is interested in only money for themselves and cost cutting is.

[Statistical]

1. Obesity related illnesses kills more people than smoking.

It isn't just private health care.

Medicare and other public health care will have to absorb larger and larger costs associated with a generally more and more unhealthy population.

[The Straight Story]

2. And there you have the problem we have created

Linking the lives of others to ourselves and/or a cost.

Which, to me, is similar in a way to what we have with fundies - except they use God as the link and fear of punishment due to sins.

It is not the individual and their choice that is the problem, it is how we have chosen to map it to ourselves.

Those on the right do this all the time - map the lives of others to themselves or something they say they share in common. They can show why abortion or gay marriage, etc, affect them somehow personally and rally against it for the common good.

The problem we face now is one of reliance on others - X relies on Y in a closed system and so X creates a vested interest in what Y does. Which leads to a justification by X to control Y.

Just a bad path to go down IMHO.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

75. Are you saying that good overall health doesn't affect the common good?

[csziggy]

10. Actually didn't someone do a cost analysis and found that the shortened

Lifespan saved as much as the extra costs of treating obese patients?

Politicians love to throw around cost-of-obesity numbers as support for fat-prevention programs, overeating legislation, or, in the case of Sens. Obama and Clinton, massive health-care reform. These shocking statistics are also supposed to guilt-trip consumers into pursuing a healthier lifestyle. Putting on weight is as much a social decision as a personal one: When we overeat, we're killing both ourselves and the economy.

This chew-and-screw narrative feeds on itself. First, it inflates the numbers by ignoring the real effects of an aging population. Then it promotes bias by supplying phony evidence that heavy people are lazy, useless, and a drag on the nation. This in turn makes anyone who thinks he's a little chubby feel even fatter, which worsens his health and lowers his quality of life. As a result, he spends more money on medical bills and more days at home crying into a bowl of ice cream. And guess what? All of this only increases the cost of obesity!

We're all interested in the most efficient ways to extend life spans and improve our quality of life. But the rhetoric of wasted fat dollars does little for our health; the claim that obesity costs the government $1 trillion is absurd at best and self-fulfilling at worst. Instead, the presidential candidates should pledge support for a federal ban on weight-based discrimination. If we stop blaming fat people for our problems, they might start feeling better—and start saving us money.
http://www.slate.com/id/2184475/pagenum/all/#p2

[dflprincess]

29. There was a study out of the Netherlands last year that found

both smokers and obese people cost health systems less in the long run because they die younger. The study found that they cost between $200,000 and $300,000 less than those that have always lived more healthy lifestyles. This is because so much is spent on end of life care and nearly everyone (who doesn't just drop dead) will have those expenses so add the extra years of routine care and healthy peole cost more.

At the rate U.S. health insurance companies are going we're apt to seen start running ads encouraging people to smoke, eat fatty foods and avoid exercise. Healthy lifestyles are cutting into their profits.

[imdjh]

77. They say that there are very few fat people over 80 and almost none over 90.

Not many in nursing homes, you'regonnadiehere nursing homes, not youmightgetbetter kind of nursing homes.

[jbnow]

11. Yes, more cost to society than smoking largeky because smokers

health issues tend to come later in life, after retirement. Obesity health issues come much sooner, such as increase od usually adult onset diabetes II in children. Then there's the increased chances of coronary heart disease, osteoarthritis, stroke, hypertension, gallbladder disease, some forms of cancer and on and on. So much lost productivity.

The increase in obesity in startling...it was under 14% among adults in 1970 and now it's 33+%.

[dmallind]

31. No it doesn't.

Even the CDC's initial estimate (AKA wild exaggeration) of 363,000 was way LOWER than the smoking number of 435,000. But that was before they cut the number bvy over two thirds and issued a rare mea culpa saying they'd blown it out of all proportion.


Here's the retraction from their own website.....

http://www.cdc.gov/PDF/Frequently_Asked_Questions_About_Calculating_Obesity-Related_Risk.pdf


Obesity ranks right along with medical error at a bit over 100,000.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Better ban fat people then!

:sarcasm:

[DarleenMB]

36. Please show the data

cite some studies. don't just hand out knee jerk comments like that. You might want to read Gary Taubes's GOOD CALORIES BAD CALORIES for starters.

[otohara]

42. Here: Obesity Passing Smoking ,Top Avoidable Cause of Death

and this was from 2004:

Obesity Passing Smoking as Top Avoidable Cause of Death

By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, March 10, 2004; Page A01

America's weight problem is rapidly overtaking cigarette smoking as the leading cause of preventable deaths, federal health officials reported yesterday.

Although tobacco is still the top cause of avoidable deaths, the widespread pattern of physical inactivity combined with unhealthful diets is poised to become No. 1 because of the resulting epidemic of obesity, officials said. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A43253-2004Mar9

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/health/daily/graphics/deadlyhabits_031004.html

[eridani]

61. That's only because all fat people supposedly die of obesity

--even if they live to be 90. Where are studies that control for lack of access to health care, fitness levels, income, and social status? There are few, and the ones that do find that correlations disappear with controls.

[Statistical]

79. What? Nobody dies from obesity.

There is never a death cert that says "cause of death: obesity".

However it is well known that obesity leads to other health problems:
* high blood pressure.
* cardiovascular disease.
* type II diabetes.
* high cholesterol

nobody is saying if someone who is obese and dies in a car accident that it is classified as a death attributed to obesity.

However by comparing for example the diabetes rate among general population and the morbidly obese population and then accounting for socio-economic, gender, race, and other factors health officials can determine the INCREASED rate of diabetes caused by obesity.

Take the increased rate and then factor in the mortality from that rate. Then do that for each disease or condition and you get the general increased mortality rate cause by obesity.

[eridani]

82. But people do indeed attribute car accident deaths and the like to obesity

A neighbor of mine died at age 85 from pneumonia, and the cause of death on her death certificate was "obesity."

"accounting for socio-economic, gender, race, and other factors health officials can determine the INCREASED rate of diabetes caused by obesity."

Nonsense. When you add family history to "other factors" the correlation disappears. Read up on "syndrome X" All of the diseases in your list are linked by common genetic factors. Obesity is a side effect appearing in societies where people get enough to eat and live long enough to get degenerative diseases in the first place. And average weight Type IIs have three times the morbidity and mortality of fat Type IIs.

"Take the increased rate and then factor in the mortality from that rate." This is bullshit. Heart disease rates have been dropping since the 60s, even as obesity has increased. High blood pressure correlates with high lean body weight and not with fat. Fat removal by liposuction has no effect on cholesterol or other blood chemistry factors.

[lbrtbell]

100. Case in point: Rush Limbaugh

Can you imagine how much that rotten, evil S.O.B. will cost the taxpayers, when he gets old? Because you can bet he'll sponge off Medicare as much as he's able to. :mad:

[Two Americas]

105. "kills"

That word "kills" gets thrown around too casually.

While it is true that marginally higher rates of certain diseases are associated with certain habits, that does not justify the word "kill" being used all the time.

Everyone is going to die. The death rate, for example, for smokers and non-smokers is exactly the same - 100%. What makes it "better" to die one way rather than the other? And why all of this attention on how long we live, when the quality of life while we are living keeps deteriorating - in some part because of the scolds and nags and busybodies trying to tell us how to live.

Lots of things "kill" just as much as being obese or smoking does - driving for example. But we don't say "driving kills, so that is a public health issue, and we need to discourage driving."

People are not a "cost" - they are not a commodity or an expense or a burden. People with "bad" habits die sooner, and use less medical care, any way, so they actually "cost" less. Quick clean suicides would save the most in health care "costs" I suppose. Staying healthy and living long is what "costs."

God I hate that - people and their needs being talked about as a "cost" that "we cannot afford" and that logic then being used to promote all sorts of authoritarian ideas.

The surest way to have "larger and larger costs associated with a generally more and more unhealthy population" is to keep everyone alive into their 80's - then watch the health care costs start to mount.

Maybe it is that American denial thing going on - the health craze, that is. People think they can escape reality, the reality that they are going to die.

I will tell you what is REALLY "killing" people - the for-profit health care industry.

If we are all going to be fucking peasants anyway - and that seems certain - could we at least be left alone in peace to live by this motto - "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow you may die"?

Bad enough being broke and old and sick in a cruel and uncaring society madly pursuing whatever it is people are pursuing - must we also be scolded and made to feel guilty and made neurotic by the busybodies?


...

[bananas]

3. It's an epidemic

Something is causing people to become obese at epidemic levels.
That makes it a public health problem.
You seem to think people "choose" to be obese, that's usually not the case.
http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/AAG/obesity.htm
http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactivity/publications/facts/obesity/en/

[The Straight Story]

5. Actually I noted that in not all cases people choose to do so

Aside from that how is it anyone's business if someone is or is not?

When did we become so vested in what an individual does in their own personal life? And why?

[bananas]

15. A couple of points

First, the health and well-being of the people is a role for the government,
It's why we have the Food and Drug Administration.
It's why Customs inspects food imports.
It's why cities inspect restaurants.

Second, people can only choose from the choices they see.
The government has made a lot of choices deciding which foods to promote.
The military lobbied heavily for the School Lunch Program because so many WWII recruits couldn't pass the physical due to chronic malnutrition.
The government made policies to prevent malnutrition-related disease,
including the US RDA (now called Recommended Daily Values), adding iodine to salt, etc.
So now we have a lot of "empty calorie" foods, fortified with vitamins.
But these public policies by the goverment are now resulting in obesity.
So it's a valid subject for public policy.

[The Straight Story]

18. A couple of more points

I can see the government making statements, giving out more info, and so on.

The question is - at what point do we allow the government to control choices? And at what point do we 'punish' folks who don't make the choices we see as best?

There is a differentiation in how we as a society, through the government, regulate companies and how we regulate individuals and their right to make choices.

Regulate industry - that is one thing. But when it comes to people where do we draw the line?

Do what we will as a society to fix issues, but that does not mean we should limit choice while doing so - your body, your choice. Period.

Those who want to limit choice in this regards I cannot see as any better than wanting to limit choice when it comes to abortions and such.

As I have said many times before, I feel the same about smoking in bars and such. Owners should have the right to choose whether or not to allow such, outside of that it is no one's business. Don't want to go someplace that allows smoking - then don't.

Free choice, to me, trumps a lot things.

Because when we start limiting an individual's choice we start down a really bad path.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. But we are where we are because of our federal food policies

and we are not alone by the way

What is cheap at the local supermarket and what is not?

You know better, if all you can afford is chips and mac and cheese, well that is what you get...

There is no choice there, real choice

And that is the point where policy intersects with your choice.

As to your views on smoking, they are quite libertarian, and so are your views on this.

But I will submit to you, that you only live with the illusion of choice as our federal food policies have made some food products, mostly highly refined, far more affordable than those food items that are ahem better for you. Our city planning has also preempted the development of walking cities, where you would be encouraged to walk or bike to work. In fact, you live in a world where you think as an individual you have a right to choose, but in reality, that is merely an illusion. By the way that is a hell of a premise for a short story... but my question would be is this a short story or reality? I'll submit reality.

[imdjh]

78. When you've had enough- you do wonder how other people let you get that way

Yes, you are responsible for what you have done to yourself. Genetics and circumstances are factors- but ultimately you are responsible for your weight. It's not fair that some people have to work hard to keep it off while others don't, but then all physical problems come with special burdens for those people who have them.

And when you have had enough, and you go get on the scale with someone else writing down your weight, and you look in the mirror full on, you wonder why no one (who matters) said anything. Sure, you got called names from passing cars and the occasional asshole. But not one person who ought to care about you said, "Hey Shirley, you have put on a lot of weight. You need to do something about that."

Even doctors tread lightly. They'll tell a 300 pound man, "I'd like to see your lose 30 pounds by our next visit." and give him a diet card. A 300 pound man can lose 30 pounds, or gain 30 pounds, in a couple of weeks. The doctor doesn't treat it like the serious illness that it is. He doesn't say, "Joe- you need to lose 120 pounds and here's how you're going to do it. You're going to go on this program and you're going to check in with me.....and so on", you know, like it's the serious medical problem that it is.

And don't even think about talking to someone at work about this. You'll be at risk of being disciplined or fired. I worked with a woman who was friendly with me, and I thought she confided in me. She was telling me that she was going to have SURGERY on her back due to pain. The woman was five foot nothing, was carrying at least fifty pounds of fat in her breasts, another 50 pounds of fat in her pregnant-like stomach and her solution to back pain was that she was going to have dangerous surgery? I told her that I had had the same problem, and that the safest and best solution would be to lose 50 pounds. I got called on the carpet two levels up for that one. Mind you, I wasn't called on the carpet for giving medical advice without an MD, I was chastised for telling her she was overweight. I was over weight. I am over weight. I thought we were all in it together. Stupid me.

My point is- obesity ir a harmful condition and it needs to be treated like the medical threat that it is, not like some irrelevant personal expression like pink hair or a pierced nose.

[L0oniX]

39. Laws of physics = you can't get something from nothing.

[paulsby]

54. with few exceptions, it is a choice

people choose behaviors that CAUSE obesity.

so, in that respect they do CHOOSE it. they choose to stuff their faces.

it's not frigging rocket science.

and fwiw, i am a weight classed strength athlete, and former personal trainer. i have had obese clients as a trainer before. every single one was caused by behaviors that were chosen.

as a weight classed athlete, i am VERY cognizant of what it takes to lose fat. DISCOMFORT. it sucks. that's what it takes.

VERY few obese people are obese because of some factor out of their control (like thyroid hormone imbalance).

[Manifestor_of_Light]

55. 27 million people in America with thyroid problems

Either too much or too little.

Seventeen million americans have hypothyroidism like I do -- Hashimoto's thyroiditis, which is an autoimmune disorder.

So 17 million Americans is VERY FEW?????

And I don't know how many diabetics there are -- there are A LOT.

[paulsby]

58. you are conflating cause and effect

diabetes for instance is a RESULT of bad (and gluttonous) eating habits. heck, give me a group of 1000 people, and let me design a diet for them and give me 20 yrs, and i can guarantee you i can create a higher rate of diabetes in my sample group than society at large. i'll start with metric assloads of simple sugars and go from there.

thyroid disorders can also be caused by behavior.

so can a whole host of medical symptoms.

i'm not aware of any reputable physician who claims that most obesity is not directly related to chosen behavior.

do you deny that this is true?

answer that question for me.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

60. How is thyroid problem caused by behavior?

Note: When a stupid doc took me off of thyroid extract, I nearly went into a myxedema coma after five years. Myxedema coma can lead to death. I know of no dietary cause for hypothyroidism. My antibodies attacked my thyroid gland when I was about eleven years old. The same thing happened to my mother at the same age. Her mother had an overactive thyroid gland. My mother's sister had one half of her gland work and one half that was dead. Two of my aunt's daughters are fat and have hypothyroidism. I also have blood sugar problems that go along with that, and i have to eat protein several times a day.

From www.elaine-moore.com

Autoimmune Hypothyroidism
Subtypes and Causes

Learn about the subtypes, symptoms, diagnosis, treatment, and disease course in autoimmune hypothyroid disorders.

Classifications of Autoimmune Disease

Autoimmune disorders are classified as systemic, which means that they involve multiple bodily organs and systems, or organ-specific, which means that they primarily target one organ. Autoimmune thyroid disorders can cause hypothyroidism, a condition of diminished thyroid function, or hyperthyroidism, a condition of increased thyroid function. Both types of thyroid dysfunction cause specific symptoms and have specific consequences.

Autoimmune Hypothyroidism Subtypes

Autoimmune hypothyroidism is the most common organ-specific autoimmune disorder. Two specific forms of autoimmune hypothyroidism exist: 1) chronic autoimmune thyroiditis, which is also known as Hashimoto's thyroiditis or Hashimoto's disease, and its variants, postpartum and sporadic thyroiditis, and 2) autoimmune atrophic thyroiditis, which is also known as primary myxedema.

Myxedema

Myxedema is a term referring to the skin changes characterized by pitting and swelling (water-logged appearance) associated with hypothyroidism. Before laboratory tests for thyroid function were developed, most hypothyroid disorders were diagnosed on the basis of goiter and myxedema. The severity of autoimmune hypothyroidism varies ranging from subclinical hypothyroidism, which is described in my 5-21-06 article, to fatal conditions of myxedema coma. This article describes the causes, symptoms, diagnosis and treatment of autoimmune hypothyroidism.

Causes

Autoimmune hypothyroidism is caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors. That is, people with certain immune and organ-specific genes are predisposed to developing autoimmune thyroid disorders when they're exposed to certain environmental triggers.

Several of these genes and environmental triggers have been identified but genetic tests aren't used outside of research since immune system genes aren't specific; they cause predisposition to several different autoimmune disorders. Environmental triggers include: iodine deficiency, iodine excess, lithium, selenium deficiency, cigarette smoke, sex steroids, trauma, interferon-alpha used in hepatitis C and other disorders, infection with Yersinia and viruses, iodine-rich medications such as amiodarone, and iodine contrast dyes used in imaging tests.
=============================

[eridani]

62. Why should anybody tolerate discomfort in and of itself? n/t

[paulsby]

70. if you want results, sometimes it means (god forbid) effort

if you want success and results, you generally have to put up with some discomfort.

that's my point.

if you want to be obese, that's your choice. but if you want to lose bf, you have to suffer some discomfort.

if you don't have the discipline to do so, then don't go blaming everybody but yourself for your obesity.

with rare exceptions, obesity is the result of chosen behaviors, and chosen behavior can fix it.

i learned very early in life that few things worthwhile come without effort. fitness is no different.

some people are lucky enough to be able to eat metric assloads of food and never gain a lb of bodyfat. that's not me, and it's not most people.

our bodies evolved to store bf during times of plenty, for obvious reasons. in a society where food is as easy to get as the kitchen, and lots of overprocessed crap is available, that's a recipe for disaster for those w/o discipline.

[eridani]

83. Discomfort = failure

No pain, no gain = turning people who could benefit from more exercises OFF permanently. What you are saying is that people don't deserve the benefits of moderate exercise if they stay fat.

[paulsby]

87. not at all

i've got experience personal training, and i have personal experience (as well as the experience of others i work and train with, etc.) in this area.

a big part of the reason people fail is that they don't accept discomfort or have the discipline to deal with it.

we lead pretty soft, east frigging lives. go back 100 yrs and people dealt with way more discomfort - ROUTINELY.


wanna talk discomfort - how about some guy right now out in the fields working for minimum wage (if that) picking produce?

and we complain because we don 't have ergonomic chairs at work and our union mandated 15 minute break every 2 hours.

i spent a good part of my life living in the hood, as well as rich neighborhoods. for the first time in recorded history, poor people are fatter than rich people, and some of the worst health problems in the poor community are directly related to obesity.

i am NOT saying that people won't get the benefits of moderate exercise if they stay fat. of course they will get benefits. i am saying that IF they want to NOT be fat any more, it is probably going to involve effort and discomfort.

[eridani]

108. 100 years ago people had life expectancies of 50 years or so. Fuck that.

And fuck discomfort. Improved health, mobility and postponement of diabetic symptoms are good enough for me. I'd rather have a life than to devote my spare time to attaining average weight.

[paulsby]

114. screw average

i don't want to have average performance or an average body. so, i work hard to excel.

you can do whatever the heck you want. i don't have a problem with obese people. i have a problem with obese people who want to blame society, corporations, etc. we are all responsible for what we put down our throats.

i want glory and achievement in sports. so i work for it. one of my good friends went to beijing olympics last year. she had to put up with pain like you wouldn't believe.

i won't ever be that good. and i'm way too old, but mediocrity to me, is failure.

we all choose our paths. and live with the results.

there are few things in our life we have greater control over than what we put down our throats.

but i EMBRACE discomfort. i also embrace comfort and pleasure. i get at least 1 massage a week. i use my whirlpool, get chiropractic, etc. i learned to cook gourmet and eat well. i love small pleasures. but i also recognize that discipline and discomfort and even pain come with the program of success and achievement.

people make their choices. and LIVE with them.

[eridani]

115. If you enjoy athletic striving, fine. You are not superior to those who don't.

Being active enough to improve my health and keep walking precincts for the next 20 years is fine by me.

You don't have to choose complete inactivity if you are obese, but people like you are a public health hazard for discouraging those who benefit the most from moderate exercise not to bother because it isn't good enough.

[paulsby]

119. which is of course a strawman

i didn't say i, or athletic achievement was superior, any more than academic achievement is.

both require work and discomfort (long hours, foregoing other activities, effort), etc.

you are engaging in another strawman. i NEVER discouraged moderate exercise for obesepeople (or anybody else) .i don't know where you got that idea. maybe from another poster, not for me.

what i discouraged was obese people blaming their condition on others.

hth

[eridani]

121. Academic achievement was hard work for me, but never painful

If it had been, I wouldn't have persisted in it. By insisting on weight loss as a primary goal, discouraging fat people from exercising is precisely what you are doing. Public harrassment and belittlement is definitely the fault of others, and is a major reason why fat people don't get enough exercise.

[paulsby]

122. i used the word discomfort

and academic achievement involves discomfort, often. long hours, eyes hurt, etc.

it also often requires foregoing doing other stuff you want to do (partying, recreation ,etc.) similar to athletic achievement.

many many times i have foregone various activities because they would be too detrimental to my training.

people striving for academic achievement frequenty do the same thing.

it's called sacrifice.

i believe in individual responsibility . you can blame "public harassment" and "belittlement" as a "major reason" fat people don't get enough exercise. i say that's rubbish.

most people who are fat, get that way because of a lack of discipline. period. (small %age have very difficult medical conditions/metabolic abnormalities).

it is much more difficult to GET in shape, then stay in shape, and morbidly obese, for instance, suffer a lot of discomfort in working out, and it takes quite some time to see the benefits in one's morphology.

[eridani]

123. Many never see benefits in "morphology"--only in health and well being

Naturally, this is trivial for the appearance Nazis, for whom "health" is merely an excuse to be abusive.

[dustbunnie]

89. No the point is, if you like being fat, then be so.

Why do you feel the need to be so negative about any idea that might inspire someone to lose weight and be more active, and thusly happy?

[eridani]

107. Your priorities are exactly assbackwards

Why not "be more active and (maybe) lose weight"? The people who benefit from exercise the most are the very people least likely to lose significant amounts of weight.

This isn't about "liking being fat;" it's about preferring to have a life. The amount of exercise I have time for has been enough to postpone diabetic symptoms, enable me to do a lot of precinct walking, and make me weigh less than I would otherwise weigh. It has not been enough to make me "ideal." So fuck it. I could bike up hills faster if I weighed less, but I'm not interested enough to spend the time.

[bananas]

4. How is Alcoholism an issue?

Whether it be from genetics, how much (and what) you drink, lack of exercise, whatever...

How is that the business of anyone else how you are or choose to be?

etc...

[The Straight Story]

8. Good question

How is it an issue unless it directly affects you and what you do in your life - and even then, if someone in Montana drinks too much and you are in Florida what business of it yours?

Do we not each have freedom to be ourselves?

Sure, we give up some things to be a part of a society, but where does that end?

You posting on the net means that you bought a PC, probably commute to work, and use electricity you would not normally use - all because you wanted to be able to surf the net. All those things (extra costs you incur for your choice) can be seen as something that affects me. The extra resources devoted to provide the electric for the internet, the extra energy it took to build your PC, etc and so on.

At some point we draw a line in the sand and say what you do as a person is your business. Otherwise we will continue down this path of every little thing you do affects others and should be limited and controlled.

[dustbunnie]

24. You've got it bass-ackwards. People are marketed and herded into being obese. Nothing "free" in that

What's so free about pepsi, coca-cola and fast food franchises lobbying like crazy to get into high schools and colleges so kids can get addicted to their products?

What's free about crap food manufacturers buying commercial time ad nauseum during kidz teevee hours? Or restaurant franchises offering MORE for your money to herd people into their establishments. BIG plates make up for lack of quality... offering food that's basically made of plastic. Where's the freedom in being mesmerized into thinking supersizing on junk is "value" for your money?

How is it freedom when people make so little in wages that the only entertainment they can afford is to load up on shit food and stay in to binge and watch television on a Friday night. Or when people can't afford to feed their families anything but garbage, fake food.

There are some people who are bon vivants and just enjoy living well, but the epidemic of obesity in America is the result of corpies selling shit food to people while assaulting them with constant media support for their products. When people become ill as a natural extension of their bad diets, big pharma takes over by mass producing medication to combat diabetes and all the other fat-related diseases.

Sorry, I don't see the freedom of choice in any of it.

[arikara]

35. Bingo!

And even the factory farmed vegetables sold in the grocery store have half the food value that they had in the 50's. Things like tomatoes are higher in fat and carbs and lower in vitamins. So they got you even if you try to eat properly.

Kids are brought up on sugary cereals for breakfast, vending machine crap in the schools, packaged pre-prepared junk for lunch and packaged food prepared from boxes and cans for supper. Everything they eat and drink is loaded with corn syrup and hidden msg which promotes obesity. In some inner cities the grocery shopping is done at a corner store and they don't even sell a fruit or vegetable. How can anyone forced to live on a diet like that be healthy? There is no freedom of choice involved.

[dustbunnie]

45. Exactly!

Add to all what you and I have listed, the fact that we're a 24/7 consumerist society. Food courts in every mall, ice cream joints and McD's on every street corner, donut shops blasting out yummy food smells to accost passersby. If you're depressed at 2 a.m. you can get into your car and load up on pizza pockets and a quart of chocolate milk. Every day of the week.

There is a whole industry employing scientists to develop new ways of making low quality, plastic gunk taste like vanilla or cherry, or even angus beef. Grocery stores have entire shelves devoted to fattening toxic products that will make your lowly coffee taste like a mochachino. Milk is just not good enough anymore.

Obese people who have no medical condition may think they're exercising freedom of choice, when in reality they're just being seduced, duped, and herded along like sheep by enormous business interests.

[Overseas]

46. I agree. We took cigarette ads off the TV for a reason.

But no one dares suggest we take the zero-nutritional-value snack food ads off the air.

We produce tons of refined grain products because "people like them," and we're all about freedom. Perhaps if we had a national health system accountable to the citizens, there would be a greater impetus to get manufacturers to restore the fiber to convenience foods. But right now they'd rather sell us extra products to add the fiber back in.

But it makes me laugh cynically when I see a sincere talk show discussion about overcoming the nation's obesity problem interrupted by commercial breaks urging us to do more snacking, and grab some more quick & easy meals.

Parents are told to do a better job. They talk about getting schools to add more exercise back into the schedule. All kinds of helpful, challenging suggestions. But parents have been swept up in the quick comfort of excessive snacking too, and we have let school funding be dictated by property values rather than need, so some have probably cut out their gym programs.

Then we see those sugary icecream swirly shakes with whipped cream and caramel topping. And then some great chips. And an exciting beverage, much more fun than water. Then the charming scenes of spaghetti in Italy, letting us know we can make some for ourselves. Then an ad for a job training school and back to the show.

Well, if floods of snacking ads are totally fine, then we are really being unfair to other products. People like to smoke and drink so let's have more cigarette and booze drinking ads on TV then.

I know we've been getting more drinking ads on the tube lately, usually with a little "please drink responsibly" message. Hey, how about a Please Snack Responsibly message then?

And why stop there? Why aren't we advertising firearms on TV? I guess we sort of are with all the glamorized police and security dramas. Sort of like product placement.

But why not have cigarette, booze and gun ads running as frequently as chips and pizza and slushies?

Do the authorities think that the ads will influence people's behavior? Gosh, is that why companies spend millions on advertising? I guess they're just silly. They tell us those ads are fine and people can just moderate their behavior, even if they see 50 enticing food ads every day. So bring on those ads for the cool Camel lights, or some good ol' Kentucky Bourbon.

[dustbunnie]

49. Excellent points! The way you expressed it -

made me laugh. :) In addition to the "please snack responsibly" messages, one could even ask why those snack foods ads, and restaurant ads exhorting people to come on in and eat a truckload for under $10, don't have full on warnings the way medication ads do. Something along the lines of "Warning, this product may cause obesity in some. Side effects may include nausea, heartburn, upset stomach and diarrhea." Instead on top of the junk food ads, we're treated to the endless commercials for Pepto Bismol and Gas-X etc... which generally follow the Pizza Hut "buy one fully loaded pizza with extra cheese stuffed into the crust, and get three more pizzas FREE" and the like. It isn't the people who eat well who routinely find themselves with a flatulence problem or doubled over in the bathroom with abdominal cramping and explosive diarrhea. When you think about it, our society is absolutely fracked!!

[Overseas]

51. That would be great-- to have the long list of warnings the meds have to have

to advertise their wares on TV be required of the junk food or invitation to overindulgence ads!

Side effects can include heartburn, flatulence, acid reflex, obesity, diabetes, tooth decay, skin rashes, halitosis, etc etc.

[Amaya]

72. well said!

:applause:

[bananas]

6. How is Homelessness an issue?

Whether it be from genetics, how much (and what) you eat, lack of exercise, whatever...

How is that the business of anyone else how you are or choose to be?

etc...

[Mike 03]

7. I think the answer would be: Cost. Just like Smokers. People with particular risk factors

which are well-establish cost our society in many ways: Not just money, but the pain of losing someone you love.

I don't know if it's my business or not.

Should I not care that people in my family are obese? Smoke? Do drugs? Are addicted to dangerous drugs and mix them with alcohol?

None of my business?

If you say so. Fuck, maybe you are right.

[The Straight Story]

12. And therein lays a difference

"None of my Business?"

Yes, on a personal level it may be your business, but when is it the business of society to intervene and make laws about it all?

What if I felt it was my business if someone I was in love with got an abortion? It might have affected me in a terrible way - but then it was her choice and her body (and no, that has never happened to me personally).

I don't want people making laws that affect me and others based on how they think it may affect them and their vested interests at the cost of freedom of choice.

When we lose freedom of choice we have lost.

I remember a recent thread here about Jackie Chan saying something along the lines of 'maybe we need to be controlled' and how folks found that a little odd.

Controlling others generally turns out bad IMHO, and it saddens me that so many are willing to let us all be controlled in the hopes of finding a utopia where everyone does is right for the group.

Going back to nash: Do what is right for yourself AND the group to get the best result.

That is a two way street. The group needs to realize that the best result also comes from people doing what is best for themselves as well.

[Mike 03]

20. Maybe so. I would feel like a really irresponsible asshole if I just encouraged my parents and

sisters to live unhealthy lives, but that is just me. Maybe I'm being a selfish asshole.

They should be allowed to all kill themselves.

And I'm not being facetious, because that was my feeling about the movie "THE HOURS." If someone wants to kill him or herself, that is their right. I want that right too.

[Mike 03]

9. It's not the "dollar." It's the studies, the facts. Would you be happy if your mother was

obese? Would you want her to get healthier, so she could be healthier, live longer, have less chance of getting dementia?

I would not pester her, but OF COURSE I FUCKING CARE.

[The Straight Story]

14. When do you turn the facts though into laws?

I get the whole science angle and giving people good info so they can make choices. I am down with that.

My problem is more centered around - should society make laws to make people conform?

[Mike 03]

17. I didn't see the mention of "laws" in your post, but I take your posts seriously.

It's not that you don't make good points.

I agree with you: Society should not make laws that people conform to particular ideals.

[southernyankeebelle]

13. ITS ALWAYS THE FAT PERSONS FAULT - IF THEY CAN'T FIND

A SOLUTION THAN BY ALL MEANS BLAME THE FAT PERSON. MY HUSBAND IS SKINNY. HIS CHOLESTEROL LEVEL IS HIGHER THAN MINE. AM FAT. LAST TIME I HAD MINE CHECKED IT WAS NORMAL.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

73. YOUR CAPS LOCK IS BROKEN

JUST LETTING YOU KNOW, OKAY?

[Thothmes]

16. Obesity, may be not

but being overweight does draw a lot of attention when it come to Supreme Court nominees, at least on this forum.

[Mari333]

19. .

:popcorn:

[panzerfaust]

21. It is a Public Health Issue, because it is the Public who pays by -

- By the need to purchase more expensive medical equipment
- from ambulances, to toilets, to CT scanners, to operating room tables - to deal with morbidly obese patients.
- By paying more in health insurance, to cover the losses incurred by the obese.
- By paying more for many services, as obese workers miss or work-days and so more staff must be hired - and paid for.
- By having more expensive airline tickets (if the airline goes with wider seats, thus fewer passengers per plane),
- or with the misery and discomfort of being enveloped by the obese person next to you.
- By increased injury to healthcare workers
- or increased cost from having more people on emergency staff simply to help lift these folks

Obesity is as much of a public health issue as smoking.

Like smoking, most obese people have not made a 'lifestyle choice' - somehow they have become trapped in a cycle of eating way too much. Study after study shows that most want to stop, but they are not able to, and medicine truly has little to offer. The only medical intervention which has been shown effective in morbidly obese people is some type of surgical procedure to decrease gastric size, or food absorption. For those who need it, and who can afford it, it is truly an intervention that adds years to their lives, and, for many, is a great boost to their self-image.

As I am just getting over a hernia suffered when helping to move a 450 pounder in the middle of the night, am feeling a bit irritated. So I will say that if you *deliberately choose* to be fat as your 'lifestyle', fine. Please then also choose to go somewhere else for your healthcare, so that I do not have to do it.

For those who do not 'choose' this, but who are thin people trapped in a fat body, I have nothing but commiseration and compassion. The fattest person I have personally cared for was 856 pounds - and he was not happy. Sorry, but that is just way too big.

[The Straight Story]

23. And there we have it all

"Please then also choose to go somewhere else for your healthcare, so that I do not have to do it."

Folks tying health care to others, and justifying their reasoning to control others.

What is next - finding a reason why abortions are costing people and limiting them?

The RW has won without evening mentioning God, because we have helped them out by replacing God with money.

what ever happened to free choice? Looks more and more like we on the left have joined the right in limiting it for one reason or another - we just have found better reasons to do so.

[Scout]

69. having children is pretty fucking expensive too

i'm sick of having to pay for other people to breed! i didn't have any kids, why should i have to pay for yours?

oh, i don't care if you want to have them but just don't make me pay for their education, or parks, or playgrounds. no tax credits either damnit, pay your fair share!

we need laws ... and control ... damn selfish breeders. i'd rather pay for their forced birth control and abortions, that would be cheaper for society in the long run.

:sarcasm:

[SmileyRose]

33. Self delete

not worth the bother..........

[eridani]

63. Fat people with stable weights cannot possibly be overeating

If they were overeating, they'd be gaining.

[Recursion]

95. We pay for athletes too

Seriously. Do you know any athletes? Always seeing the doctor, that crowd. If it's not their knees its their ankles, or some other cartilage giving out. Why should I subsidize these morons?

[Mnemosyne]

22. Direct correlation, from all I have read, between the rise of crap in our food and obesity, cancer,

etc...

Crap in our water, the land and our skies.

Kids hitting puberty younger and younger = hormones in food.

Type 11 = HFCS in every freaking thing not raw.

And on and on and on...

People need to look past the smoke and mirrors; unfortunately most never do.

[GeorgeGist]

25. You are not required to care about your health.

Feel better now?

[The Straight Story]

26. I would if that were the case

but more and more I am seeing that I have to care about my health for the benefit of others.

What is next, telling folks they cannot have abortions because the impact of such choices impact me?

[Juche]

27. Because our culture is offended by bodyfat, and hides that prejudice behind medical justifications

In a culture where judging someone on the content of their character and not their physical attributes is laudable and doing the opposite is shameful, we pretend that the reason we are so disgusted by bodyfat is some reason other than fashion or social stigma. So we pretend it is about health. Paul Campos ties it into racism, in a culture that is as sensitive about the negative effects of judging others by superficial traits (how lazy, indulgent or reliable they are based on how they look) we really can't face who we are wrt our attitudes on obesity.

The reality is its not about health. Most of the diseases associated with obesity strike in the elderly years. How many teenage girls really care if they have a 50% higher risk of a heart attack in 2062? Very few. But ask them and they'll say 'health' is a major motivator for losing weight. It isn't. Not being a victim of social prejudice and social exclusion is a motivator. Not being dateless is a motivator. A slightly lower risk of having a heart attack in 50 years is not.

Besides, about 60-70% of the 200-400k deaths associated with obesity are due to CVD. And most of those deaths are due to obesity increasing risk by 50 or 60%. However there are dozens of factors that dramatically affect CVD risk. Poor sleeping habits for example. You might as well claim sleep deprivation kills 500k americans a year. A multitude of issues can affect your chances of developing CVD, obesity is only one.

That isn't to say there are no health risks of obesity. Joint dysfunction and type II diabetes are very strongly correlated with it, and improve with weight loss. But much of the health concern is just an attempt to mask the fact that we don't as a society want to admit that we judge and guage people's worth and character by how they look. The majority of people who say they want to lose weight to improve their health would likely take a drug that made their health worse if it made them thin.

God I'm crazy

[eridani]

64. If it was about health, there would be more prejudice against fat men than against fat women

It is the other way around, even though fat women have fewer health problems than fat men.

[eridani]

65. If it was about health, there would be more prejudice against fat men than against fat women

It is the other way around, even though fat women have fewer health problems than fat men.

[imdjh]

80. bingo- sleep apnea

Watch those fat-death numbers go down as more and more people with apnea get CPAP machines. You don't have to be fat to have apnea, but it makes it worse.

[Juche]

81. Yeah, I forgot about apnea

Apnea, joint dysfunction and type II diabetes are all serious risks of obesity, and all undergo dramatic improvements with weight loss surgery. However for the most part 90% of the time when people talk about 'health and obesity' that is just code for 'we aren't willing to admit to ourselves and each other how superficial our culture is, so lets pretend this issue is about health'.

[Juche]

28. I predict 200 replies

[MonteLukast]

30. It sort of comes with the territory of a service economy.

"Service economy" means, among other things, the "always look camera-ready when you're working" economy.

Seeing a person as less qualified because of their looks, their weight, or their affect is an intrinsic product of working in a service economy. Where looks and "nonthreatening" demeanor HAVE become a point of job performance. Women, of course, have always been more vulnerable to losing their jobs or promotions because of personality conflicts, "style" issues, and looks issues. The dark underbelly of customer service and sales served to codify it.

We take on these attitudes because our bosses and supervisors do-- because agreeing with them has become necessary to our livelihoods.
Repeat a behavior enough where you spend the majority of your time-- the workplace-- and it's bound to spill over into your general attitudes about other issues. Hence, otherwise progressive people ragging on prospective SCOTUS justices about their weight.

It also becomes a class issue. Image maintenance-- whether it's weight management, fashion, plastic surgery, or the glowing attitude that comes from either a rich lifestyle or expensive pharmaceuticals-- costs a lot of money. And time. Money and time that anybody below upper-middle-class just isn't going to have. It's not a coincidence that the working class has more obese people than the middle and upper classes.

We Americans have a nasty habit of turning desirables into requirements. And this time, it's particularly insidious... we basically are given two choices: keep up the same sick system, or be unemployable. If we don't find a way to beat it soon, we'll all have to look like Carrie Prejean to be considered fit to be a doctor or a lawyer.

[SmileyRose]

32. You are so so right.

A woman's reproductive and medical care choices are none of my damn business. Now, providing accurate information and safe access to medical care is my business because someone I love and care about may need to access that someday.

In exactly the same way - someone who smokes, boozes, or eats too much, or has a genetic predisposition to obesity, or was born diabetic, or whatever else they are dealing with is none of my damn business. The only thing that's my business is fighting for all of us to have accurate information and safe access to medical care (and mental health care is part of that).

These people who think there's some sort of moral thing about being fat, or alcoholic, or whatever else they decide to sit in judgment of this week can kiss my scrawny butt.

[L0oniX]

37. Ah ...so if we don't like obesity then we are for private health care. Nice. pffft

[shireen]

38. obesity is a complex issue

everyone is different.

some people can be overweight AND healthy.

for some, it is due to medical circumstances beyond their control.

for some, it is directly correlated to food consumption which in itself is another complex issue.

i don't think there should be laws mandating ideal weights or insurance companies penalizing overweight people.

but i think the government has a role in helping citizens stay healthy. they can do that with education, childhood nutrition programs, counseling people who want to lose weight, research into obesity and health problems associated with it, and enforcing safe food laws.

i am obese. i have tried to lose weight and it's really hard. i know my health will greatly benefit from shedding those extra pounds of fat. I welcome well-meaning trained counselors and programs to help me lose that weight.

but if anyone tries to force it on me due to government policy and health insurance requirements, they can go to hell!

[L0oniX]

40. Imperfect ...must sterilize.

[otohara]

41. I'm So Sick of This "Individual Rights" BS

Fuck it if we kill 30,000 people a year from gun violence, as long as we maintain a right that is seriously outdated.

Fuck it if we watch our friends and family members blow themselves up with garbage food then struggle with type-2 diabetes, heart disease, cancer, gout, and the host of other illnesses directly related to obesity.

You know what, people do feel better when they are not carrying extra poundage. Yes it's true, and yes you feel better about yourself. Your feet will thank you, your legs, heart, bones, etc. And if that's not enough, think of the money shelled out to doctors, hospitals, you'd save yourself or your family and yes the rest of us too!

If we cared less about our individual rights and started thinking like a community interested in each other vs just our piggy little selves, we'd be a heck of a lot better off.

It's your gun, your body, and you think nobody besides you pays the price for maintaining these rights?

Smoking related deaths and illnesses are down because smoking became an "issue". Even better, we now don't have to stand in bars and public places with smokers.

I say YES to making issues out of things that will save lives, money.

[JitterbugPerfume]

43. who said obese people choose obesity?

[Sparkly]

44. Seems like a "libertarian" sort of argument.

A "public" issue can mean providing help and support, not necessarily restricting freedoms.

On a range of social issues, it seems compassion, caring, concern for the broader community (community! Sounds like communism! - gasp) OUGHT to be the rationale. But it often comes down to saying, "If you're too selfish to see this as a humanitarian issue, then think of how it works economically." That goes to public schools, housing, treatment centers vs. jails, etc.

So it goes to this and other health issues, and particularly (as I see it) as they impact children. Kids don't have the range of "choices" and "free will" adults do. Illnesses in the family affect them in lots of ways and perpetuate problems through generations. (I'm speaking broadly here of physical and behavioral issues.)

[Wednesdays]

48. At first blush, it may seem like a libertarian position

But I've known The Straight Story long enough on here to know he's no libertarian...at least, not one with a "big L."

In a nutshell, his position seems to be an extension of the pro-choice "Keep Your Laws Off My Body." I sure would hate for things to get to the point where someone shows up at my door saying, "We see you've exceeded the 400 pound limit. We're taking you in."

Now, that's an extreme example and not likely to happen. However, it is conceivable that with health care reform legislation, clauses could be slipped in that penalize heavier people. And the OP is asking, "why?" As you can see in comments above, it's debatable whether there is even a correlation between obesity and increased health care costs.

[dustbunnie]

50. The abortion analogy is silly.

If 33% of women started having 15-20 abortions in their lifetime, you can bet that alarm bells would go off somewhere. If 14-year-old girls started having abortions in droves, there would be discussion about it as well. Clearly it would indicate that people need to be educated. But somehow, the epidemic of obese children in our country is nobody's business?

Single payer countries air lots of CSA's regarding obesity and other issues because implementing preventative measures and educating people are preferable. And as some have said, it's a caring society that is concerned with the health and well-being of their fellow citizens.

[Sparkly]

52. Again, a "public issue" doesn't mean penalizing, necessarily

and in fact, health care for ALL would mean the opposite.

[The Straight Story]

53. Pretty much sums it up

"Keep Your Laws Off My Body."

Discussion and education of health risks and impacts = good.
Using that data to create laws when it comes to free choice for one's own body = bad

When I say I support a woman's right to choose - it is not just abortion. I am also for a man's right to choose.

Your body, your choice. When we start making other peoples' bodies ours to punish we are on a bad track.

[Wednesdays]

47. K&R

:kick:

[mrs_p]

56. i know of no overweight/obese

person who CHOOSES to be so. it's complicated, and may involve genetics, lack of access to healthy food, depression, poor habits, etc. And, believe it or not, fat people have family who care for them and want them to be healthy. i bike everyday, go running several times a week, hike every weekend, swim, walk, and am active. my physical therapist tells me i'm "fit" - but i'm 50 lbs over my ideal weight. i can't look at chocolate and not gain weight. there are people who love me, though society tells me each day i'm not worthy.

i want and hope federal funds continue to go into research to understand why some people have low metabolism and public health policies that educate kids on how to eat healthy and be active.

[ismnotwasm]

57. Well

I'm always of two minds. First, there are many people considered "obese" who are happy and healthy and lead rich and fulfilled lives. There are those who are overweight or obese who are tormented by the shallow and the cruel. More of a statement on a mean ass society there.

Second, I'm a renal/tranplant nurse. I do acute dialysis a lot. Obesity and diabetes go hand in hand and after that is when kidney failure often comes into play. Not having dialysis and staying alive in kidney failure is not a lifestyle choice.


Dialysis is one of the things covered by medicare/medicaid in a kind of "special" payment category. Yet I feel the need to be careful here, while I try to promote public health, I realize doing it by condescending to preach to an already hurt and easy target population is just bullshit.

[eridani]

66. You have the hand in hand part ass-backwards

The genetics of Type II result in a tendency towards weight gain in adulthood. This is due to higher than average insulin levels. Type IIs who do not compensate for insulin resistance by making more insulin (about 10% of Type IIs) are less likely to be fat, but they have 3 times the morbidity and mortality of fat Type IIs.

Among the Pima, who have the world's highest know concentration of Type II genes, the women who live the longest are twice actuarial ideal weight, and the men 1.5 times higher.

[ismnotwasm]

74. Wrong

But that's ok, I'm not really trying to argue here

[eridani]

84. Let's see the CONTROLLED studies

Also, you appear to know nothing about Syndrome X.

[juno jones]

59. Since this has hung around a bit, I will throw in my 2 cents.

:)

What worries me is; exactly WHAT critera are we using to ascertain obesity. Insurance tables? Individual doctor pronouncements, a philosophy of 'I know it when I see it?'?

Insurance tables are notoriously bad, basically unchanged since the early 20th century. Personal judgement sucks, look at all those buttheads who gossip about the latest 10 lbs some 98lb. celeb packed on, suddenly making her fat.

A doctor would at least take in account bone density, muscle mass, physical endurance and other markers.

In college I had a friend who weighed somewhere between 250-300lbs. She ate lightly, went to aerobics class, took sports classes and hiked for a hobby. She was very active probably in better shape than many who scorn 'fat' people.

I am big. If I had been a guy, I would have been a wrestler or football player in high school. Broad-shouldered, barrel chested, I am 45 and still work jobs requiring a high level of physical fitness and stamina. But insurance companies consider me 'fat' because at 5'4" I weigh more than 135 lbs. I'm sure a lot of people would make that judgement as well because I'm not the dainty paragon of feminity that we culturally worship. But every time I see a doc, I check out: BP fine, etc etc.

I really think people should tend to their own knitting, as my mom used to say.

[eridani]

67. Isn't there something wrong with people who can't lift 300 lbs?

300 lb Cheryl Haworth can do that and a lot more.

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-2041

Haworth's appeal, however, extends beyond the sport of weight lifting. A versatile athlete, she can run forty yards in 5.5 seconds, jump 30-inch vertical leaps, and perform front, back, and sideway splits. She is also a talented artist. She graduated from the Savannah Arts Academy in 2001, and in 2006 she earned a degree in historic preservation at the Savannah College of Art and Design. Much like legendary Georgia strongman Paul Anderson, with whom she is sometimes compared, Haworth has been an innovator. She seems destined to serve as an enduring role model for women in sports.

[dustbunnie]

68. Cheryl is not obese. The woman has reams of muscle.

What does she even remotely have to do with this thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzD7UtoBTGU

[eridani]

85. Yes, she is

Besides the muscle, she has plenty of fat. Try to imagine her life if her parents had put her on a diet at age 8 instead of encouraging her interest in sports.

http://www.harcourtbooks.com/authorinterviews/bookinterview_Cox.asp
Lynne Cox is considered "obese" at 200 lbs, but without the layer of fat she could never survive distance swimming in Arctic waters.

[dustbunnie]

86. But considered obese by whom?

This is a guess, but based on the youtube vid I would put her at about 23-25% boyfat. Maybe... maybe 27-29%. There's a whole huge difference between being muscular/insulated with fat, and being so morbidly obese with little muscle, that you can't climb three stairs without heezing and panting. Can't enjoy life at all because they're hampered by severe physical limitations. It's those people who have health issues and who elicit pity from others. I guess people envision obesity differently. Lenda Murray is probably enormously obese to some people at 5'5" and close to 200 lbs off season, and yet, she's very muscular. And beautiful.

http://www.bodybuildbid.com/bodypics/fempics/murray/mur9.html

[eridani]

104. By anybody in our culture with standard opinions about appropriate female size

27-29% body fat is considered overweight. High blood pressure is correlated with high LEAN body weight, not high fat BTW.

My point here is that if these very athletic women obsessed about their weight and went on weight loss diets instead of enjoying being active, they would become seriously obese.

[pmorlan1]

71. Thanks, The Straight Story

I too am tired of seeing other people stick their noses into other peoples lives using the cost of health care as an excuse to do it. I'm not obese but I would stand with my obese brothers and sisters to help them fight this intrusion into their lives. I would stand with them to help them fight against becoming the latest "whipping boy" for the "concerned citizens" in this country who are hell bent on hounding them about their weight. I just wonder if they will stand with me when the smoking police intrude further into my life?

[LanternWaste]

76. Is communal hygiene a collective, government issue?

Is communal hygiene (clean water, waste disposal, etc) a collective, government issue?

If so, what are the precise and relevant differences between hygiene and the particular health issue you bring up?

[dysfunctional press]

88. it kills more people and causes more health problems than any other fully preventable cause.

and as such, is THE BIGGEST hurdle to a cost-effective universal healthcare program in this country.

plus- it just plain looks bad.

[The Straight Story]

91. And I say... So?

At what point are you and others willing to make life choices others make for themselves something that you can control because it costs people money?

If we find that abortions cost us, are you willing to pass laws to stop people (women) from having them?

If we make it about money and not free choice than have we not become like those we rail against who want to remove choice when it comes to our own bodies?

The RW justifies it's reasons to limit choice - something I fight against, will we on the left become like them but for different reasons (ones we can 'justify')?

Pro-Choice - we either accept it and preach it, or we don't.

[dustbunnie]

92. yawn...get a good night's sleep and stop stuffing your face -

you''ll have less nightmares and less diarrhea.

[The Straight Story]

93. And that addresses my points how?

Are you pro choice or not?

[dysfunctional press]

96. did i say that i wanted to limit anyone's life choices?

i pointed out that it IS the biggest preventable health threat going in this country, and as such- it WILL be the biggest hurdle, simply because of the medical costs for obesity and it's associated health problems in our society.

and whether or not you want to make it 'about money', that's HOW it will be fought- that the general public shouldn't have to pay the price for people's "bad" choices.

[The Straight Story]

97. And there you go:

"the general public shouldn't have to pay the price for people's "bad" choices."

Putting a value judgment on people's personal life choices.

Tell me WHY outside of a mother's health we should ever pay for an abortion when people know where babies come from and choose anyway to engage in sex? Don't want an abortion, don't have sex.

That same logic is prevalent in your thinking when it comes to the term 'bad choices'.

Abortions are preventable, yet I don't hear folks on the left talking about abstinence education and the like.

Should the public have to pay for people who get std's, get pregnant and want an abortion, etc???

[dysfunctional press]

99. out of context much...?

you forgot this part: "whether or not you want to make it 'about money', that's HOW it will be fought- "

your credibility: zero.

sorry...:shrug:

g'nite.

[Scout]

116. you lost the last little shred of credibility you had with this reply

yawn...get a good night's sleep and stop stuffing your face -

you''ll have less nightmares and less diarrhea.

i hope you aren't in real life, what your posts here make you seem like--at least to me.

[dysfunctional press]

118. i didn't post that. you've obviously replied to the wrong person.

"yawn...get a good night's sleep and stop stuffing your face -

you''ll have less nightmares and less diarrhea." :shrug:

link, please.

(and talk about "losing your last little shred of credibility" -you just did, moran :eyes:)

[Scout]

120. yes, that gem should properly have been attributed to dustbunnie

i do apologize.

although you still lack credibility ... nice name-calling on a human error

[OHDEM]

103. Which bad choices will we choose to pay for?

And who gets to decide?

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/FASTATS/deaths.htm

Number of deaths: 2,448,017
Death rate: 825.9 deaths per 100,000 population
Life expectancy: 77.8 years
Infant Mortality rate: 6.87 deaths per 1,000 live births
Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
Heart disease: 652,091
Cancer: 559,312
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 143,579
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 130,933
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 117,809
Diabetes: 75,119
Alzheimer's disease: 71,599
Influenza/Pneumonia: 63,001
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 43,901
Septicemia: 34,136

I think about half the accident deaths are car accidents...do we force people to be safer or drive less? How about smoking/drinking? What about people predisposed to certain illnesses - they would cost more, too.

I think it's just easy to attack fat people. They may be the last group that it's socially acceptable to go after.

[dysfunctional press]

106. that remains to be seen, doesn't it? and that's assuming that we ever do get anywhere near it.

but it WILL be one of the main arguments against it.

[OHDEM]

111. I don't think so because I think that nobody wants to be told...

...how to live. It's not really fair to punish or exclude folks because they're fat anymore than it would be to do it because they're genetically predisposed. It seems unethical to me.

How exactly do you argue against single payer on this basis?

[dysfunctional press]

113. i don't argue against it.

but the ones who do will point out that in the VAST majority of cases- obesity is caused by a person's bad choices. and other people shouldn't have to pay for those bad choices.

simplicity in logic seems to work best for that side of the aisle.

they'll probably make the same kinds of arguments about other 'choices'- like drinking, smoking, and promiscuity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. It's an issue due to the morbidity and mortality related to obesity related diseases

these range from Diabetes to cardiac, to others.

Of course this is also related to our food policies... as well as our practices

And it is NOT just the US... if it were, then sure no problem. But this is a world wide problem... especially in the first world, but also in the emerging world and it is related to what crap we put in our food, as well as changing food habits

See Mexico I used to have fruit for desert, here is an interesting stat for you.

Processed food consumption has gone up by 50%, and fruit has gone down by 30%... they are actually over us in obesity and diabetes rates.

[Mike 03]

94. Thank you!

I'm so torn on this issue.

I LOVE my parents so much, more than I can even put into words. But they are obese. There's not other way to put it.

And they are part of the trend of chronic illness, and as you know, my father is dying. He has terminal cancer, and obesity is a risk factor for his cancer.

Don't get mad at me (not you, Nadine, but the OP) for pointing out that this is costing everyone a fortune.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. As a medic I saw it...

and my dad's diabetes is far less aggressive than mine, and he's thin. Well his falls and broken hip are a direct result of 50 years of diabetes

Problem is that many folks cannot connect the obesity, with insulin resistance and diabetes

Or the fat, that leads to some types of cancers

By the way, you need this

:hugs:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

101. Most of the posters in this thread...

assume that fat people a)enjoy being fat; b)all eat too much and have no willpower; c)don't want to lose weight; d)never get any exercise e)never have genetic or metabolic problems.

I eat right and exercise, and I DO have a fairly common problem - hypothyroidism.

If the government wants to help me lose weight, I have one suggestion: They should pay for liposuction for me.

The rate of death from gastric bypass is unacceptable. Besides, if I starve, I don't lose weight because of my slow metabolism. I've been on a medically supervised 500 calorie per day diet and only lost about 8 lbs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. I have it too, and it is treatable

but you are right.

[Two Americas]

109. why it is an issue

People are afraid or confused, and cannot or will not fight back against the real source of the problems so they scapegoat others. Some are arrogant authoritarians at heart, and this gives them an opportunity to express that.

Also, obesity, like smoking, is now associated with blue collar people and poor people, and the discussion among liberals and Democrats is dominated by relatively upscale and stylish people who identify as liberals mostly as an expression of their own sense of moral superiority, and they have nothing but contempt for the poor and working people.

Also, women struggle with weight more than men, and it could also be true that obsessing over obesity is part of a misogynist undercurrent that runs through the liberal community now.


...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

110. Check out what the inventor of the South Beach diet has to say.

A Supreme Court Justice can be Fat AND Fit:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arthur-agatston-md/a-supreme-court-justice-c_b_201803.html

I am here to tell you that you can be fat and fit. Appearances can be deceiving.

This idea is not new. In fact, the term "fat and fit" was originally coined by Dr. Steven N. Blair, one of the world's leading exercise scientists, who is currently a professor at the University of South Carolina. For more than 25 years Blair and his associates have been looking at how fitness, fatness, and health outcomes are related. And what they have found is that cardiorespiratory fitness is a better predictor of who will die, and when, than BMI (body mass index), a calculation of body fat based on height and weight. In other words, according to Blair, fitness appears to provide protection against the risk of early mortality posed by fatness. In fact, his research shows that the death rate for women and men who are thin but unfit is at least twice as high as for their obese counterparts who are fit.

I witness the fat-and-fit phenomenon in my preventive cardiology practice every day. Into my examining room will walk a considerably overweight, pear-shaped female who will turn out to have the blood chemistry of a vegetarian marathoner because she actually gets out and walks on a regular basis. Her HDL ("good") cholesterol and triglycerides are excellent and her tests show she is at very low risk for heart disease. My next patient will be a seemingly fit, normal-weight man, who turns out to have terrible blood lipids and is at high risk for heart attack, stroke, and many other diseases. Even though he looks great at first glance, he's actually carrying his "normal" weight as fat (typically a highly inflammatory little bowling ball in his belly), not muscle, because he doesn't exercise. That's why I always go by a person's physiologic risk factors, rather than by BMIs or weight tables.

This was recently backed up by a study of 5,440 adults reported in the August 2008 Archives of Internal Medicine. It found that half of the overweight and one-third of the obese participants were "metabolically healthy." This means they had few, if any, risk factors for heart disease, such as high blood pressure or low levels of HDL cholesterol. The study also found that about one-fourth of the "normal" weight people were "metabolically unhealthy" and exhibited cardiovascular risk factors. The study did not measure fitness levels, as Blair has done.


=======================================

[Scout]

117. thank you for that

at 5'4" and 221 or so pounds at age 49, i am "morbidly obese" despite the fact that i weight train, do cardio, have lost 25 pounds over two years. my triglycerides and cholesterol have always been excellent, and my blood pressure was just deemed "perfect" after being in the high-normal or normal range for years. i swim, i hike with my dogs, i ride horses, i bicycle. i used to play softball, and i got a brown belt in judo in college.

my father, who has never ever been fat, and was quite skinny as a boy and a young man, has very high cholesterol despite the fact that he has been active all his life, walked thousands of miles on the golf course. he had a mini-stroke in his late 70s. he's 83 now.

my mother, who like me has struggled with her weight all her life, has the excellent cholesterol but did get type II, and has had high blood pressure. she did not have time to be active, she was busy being a homemaker and raising her five kids and off-and-on her niece and nephew. she's 83 now.