The Credit Card bill passed just now by the Senate allows

[floridablue]

with a late amendment, the allowance of guns in National Parks and Recreation Areas. What would classify as a recreation area that is not a park? Or am I dumbing down the reading of this.

[imdjh]

1. I'm guessing it's aimed at waterways

Theoretically you could run afoul of gun laws by sailing through a national marine preserve with guns onboard, which most larger boats would have.

[mdmc]

2. In Newburgh NY we have two public tennis courts on South Street

Just two courts, and a big fence around it. Not quite a park, but still a rec area.

[Statistical]

5. I don't think that is a National Park.

[mdmc]

11. Nope it is not

I cant think of a nat. rec center. perhaps in DC?

[nykym]

15. List of National Parks in NY state

From Wilipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Parks_in_New_York

[mdmc]

42. thanks for the link my friend

:)

[jmg257]

38. And Newburgh would be a reasonable place to want to carry. Though the

NYS permit covers that.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

3. Glen Canyon is a national recreation area, I think

But Grand Canyon is a national park.

I think national parks just have better facilities, more services. Recreational areas, bring your own shovel, there may be no plumbing.

:hi:

[fascisthunter]

4. this country is sick

if you feel the need to carry, especilly in a recreation/park area with a gun, you probably are the wrong person to own one. But hey... Washington is about business interests. Can't let down the gun manufacturers, now can we.

[MercutioATC]

8. Right....because bears in Yellowstone respond so well to harsh language.

:eyes:

[depakid]

9. ANYONE who is stupid enough to shoot a bear out of fear

Is DEFINITELY someone who ought not to be allowed to own a gun.

[MercutioATC]

46. How about shooting a bear to avoid being eaten?

...or are you suggesting that people have nothing to fear from bears?

[sinkingfeeling]

14. Shoot a bear in Yellowstone and see what happens. The wildlife of Yellowstone are protected.

[NeedleCast]

17. If a bear were attacking me

You're darn right I'd shoot it...because then I'd be alive to worry about the legal ramifications later.

[MercutioATC]

47. Exactly...and I'd be surprised if you were charged for killing a bear in self-defense.

Personally, I think it's a little silly for the average person to be aimlessly wandering around in bear territory, but that's a separate issue.

[Joe Fields]

28. your little peashooter isn't going to save you from a bear attack.

[X_Digger]

33. Depends on the species of bear and caliber of pistol.

38 special against a grizzly? He'll be crapping bits of flannel for days. .45 acp against a black bear? Bout even if you can get one in the right spot.

[Obamanaut]

36. Miz O just came in to see why I'm laughing, and here it is -

"crapping bits of flannel for days." You've made my day. Thanks

[X_Digger]

37. Welcome! Here's another!

Warning: The Alaska Department of Fish and Game, recently issued this bulletin:

In light of the rising of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.
"We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear.
It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear scat:

Black bear scat is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear scat has little bells in it and smells like pepper."

[Obamanaut]

39. I'm sending that one to every one I know. Two laughs in one day.

This was a very good day.

[virginia mountainman]

13. It is not he manufactures they are afraid off..

It is us voters, who will fire them, if they don't do OUR bidding...

[fascisthunter]

29. lol.. yuh... rrright

[NeedleCast]

16. I'd think a state park is one of the wisest places to carry a gun

When you leave the city, you cease being the top of the food chain.

[jmg257]

40. Right. Because nothing bad ever happens to people in a National Park.

[fascisthunter]

41. yeah.... like those killer rabbits and chipmunks

Defending against wild life. Good luck with shooting a bear.

[jmg257]

48. Bears are easy - they are so damn big it is hard to miss 'em.

Just need to carry enough gun.

Chipmunks on the other hand make tough targets, the little fuckers.


"It's coming right for us!" Jimbo Kern

[Raineyb]

6. This bullshit passed but we couldn't get a usury amendment passed?

I hope the good Senators remember this the next time they come looking for a handout for the DSCC because they won't get a god damned penny out of me.

[snappyturtle]

24. That's my thinking too! I watched Sen. Dorgan on WJ this morning

talking about the credit card bill. A woman caller from TX questioned him about whether or not the bill included a limit on interest and he sheepishly said no but, but, but you'll have 45 days notice of changes! Well, whoopee!

They won't allow bankruptcy judges to modify mortgages in danger of foreclosure and this bill, which was probably written by the banking lobby, is about as much help. The criminals get all the help and those of us footing the bill get zilch.

[Statistical]

7. Just a clarification the bill doesn't automatically allow anyone to carry guns.

It simply gives the STATES the right to regulate firearms on national parks in their state border.

So if you live in a state that doesn't allow you to carry firearm in public or specifically prohibits carrying in city or state park you will NOT be able to carry in a national park in your state.

All this law does (despite the hype on both sides) is make Federal land inside a state not "special".

Right now in VA:
carry in public places - legal
carry only private property (unless prohibited by owner) - legal
carry in city parks - legal
carry in state parks - legal
carry in a vehicle on city/state roads - legal
carry on federal highway - legal*
carry in a national park - illegal (felony)

All it does is bring national parks inline with laws & policies of the land right outside the park.

BTW: In VA the Blue Ridge Parkway is a highway but also a national park.
If you are driving w/ loaded firearm and turn onto the Blue Ridge parkway you have just commited a felony.

After this law all land in VA will be treated the same.


DC for example allows no public carry (open or concealed) anywhere.
Any federal parks in DC (like the National Mall) will still prohibit carrying.

[ColbertWatcher]

31. Thank you for clarifying. n/t

[fishwax]

10. National Park and National Recreation Area are just two different classifications

of protected lands. Recreation Areas usually involve water (reservoirs, lakes, the Mississippi River, etc.), and so jurisdiction is different than the National Parks, which are (I believe) always under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service.

[virginia mountainman]

12. WOW!!!!!

Just a couple of Hours ago, my wife and I was eating at a restaurant, beside the Blue Ridge Parkway, in Virginia, we could see the road from our seat!

I commented to her that it was ashamed that we could no get our food to-go, and take it to a nearby overlook to eat, without committing a Federal felony...

See, We decided on a whim, to eat out, while we were out, and because we are legally armed, with our sidearms, it is HIGHLY illegal for us to get on the Parkway at all. It is even illegal for us to cross it.

This legislation will correct that.

[Johonny]

18. Congress didn't want to face voters in the 2010 election without

proof that they are listening. Yeah cause I know voters were screaming for more guns.

[X_Digger]

19. x-posted to the other thread on same subject..

Poll: Fewer Americans support stricter gun control laws
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/08/gun.control.poll/index.html

Now, a recent poll reveals a sudden drop -- only 39 percent of Americans now favor stricter gun laws, according to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll.

[Johonny]

25. Does that poll matter?

In general liberal voters place gun laws low on there priority lists. People have opinions on all sorts of things but this doesn't translate into desire for laws.

[X_Digger]

26. The expansion of concealed carry and the like..

.. has been on the upswing since 1987 or so. I see this as a continuation of that same trend, albeit stuck in a stupid place (cc bill.)

[Joe Fields]

30. I know for a fact that there are state legislatures who have rammed conceal/carry

through, against the wishes of the voters. In Missouri, it was voted down twice, overwhelmingly, but the NRA had its way with the state legislature. Somehow, conceal/carry was backdoored into law.

[X_Digger]

32. Then organize a new slate of legislators..

.. if enough people are pissed off, throw the bums out.

[bridgit]

20. The part that's been 'dumbed down' is the part where the NRA slips...

their specialized opinions, as to redressing the government, into a bill designed to assist the trials of Americans the NRA's bully puppets helped create in the first place

[Mari333]

21. okie dokie, scratching off US national parks for next vacation

europe sounds better anyway.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. Here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Recreation_Area

Now why were there the gun bans in the first place?

Sounds like a pretty silly thing to be upset about.

[benEzra]

44. Because James Watt didn't trust the "little people."

Now why were there the gun bans in the first place?

Because James Watt didn't trust the "little people." Yes, that James Watt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._Watt

Of course, the "ban" was on the honor system, so it was and is de facto voluntary. It only disarms those so law-abiding that they'd obey it even knowing they'd never be caught if they disobeyed it.

[rug]

23. Here's one.

http://www.nps.gov/dewa/

[Joe Fields]

27. Is there any way we can distinguish who voted for the bill, strictly because

of the gun vote?

IMO, this is abhorrent!

[X_Digger]

34. Here's the link for the vote for this amendment..

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00188

[benEzra]

43. Right, how dare states be allowed to set their own carry rules

like they have always done for National Forests and BLM lands, and used to do for National Parks until James Watt (yes, that James Watt) instituted the gun ban under Reagan.

This would allow only those people already allowed to carry in National Forests and state parks to carry in National Parks within the same state. I hold an NC carry license; want to know the hoops I had to jump through to qualify?

[ljm2002]

35. Lake Mead National Recreation Area...

...right outside of Las Vegas, is not a national park but a recreation area.

[leftyclimber]

45. A National Recreation Area has different criteria for establishment than a National Park:

National Recreation Areas (NRAs) are areas relatively close to major population areas that are managed specifically for recreational use (but are still subject to NEPA, meaning you have to do an environmental impact statement before you can put in a toilet, etc.). They can be and are managed by any of the federal land management agencies (usually under Interior or Ag, so Park Service, BLM, or Forest Service, for the most part). The agency managing the area does their management plans under the federal laws governing all of them as well as the policies specific to the agency in charge. So an NRA run by the Forest Service may be run slightly differently than one run by the Park Service, although a casual user probably won't see any difference. It's mostly paperwork and other bureaucratic stuff going on behind the scenes that differs.

National Parks (NPs) are all under Interior (Park Service) and exist under a specific mandate: to preserve areas of unique natural niftiness of some sort for public enjoyment. Obviously this is a bit contradictory, since people can enjoy all of the niftiness right out of a NP by overusing it. So NPs tend to be managed with a "sacrifice" area (like Old Faithful) that's fairly developed and where the public is encouraged to go. The rest of the park is left relatively undeveloped and doesn't see much use (the preservation part).

If this doesn't make sense, let me know. I'm getting a PhD in this stuff and need to be able to simplify well when I teach lower-division classes. ;)