Top Indian CEO: Most American Grads Are ‘Unemployable’

[FarCenter]

Posted by Rob Preston, VP & Editor in Chief, Informationweek, on Jun 3, 2009 02:54 PM

OK, before you get your knickers in a twist, let's put the CEO's comments into context. Vineet Nayar, the highly respected CEO of HCL Technologies, one of India's hottest IT services vendors, was speaking this morning in New York City to an audience of about 50 customers and partners when he related a recent experience with an education official in a large U.S. state.

The official wanted to know why HCL, a $2.5 billion (revenue) company with more than 3,000 people across 21 offices in 15 states, wasn't hiring more people in his state. Vineet's short answer: because most American college grads are "unemployable." (In fairness to HCL, the company recently announced plans to open a delivery center in another state, North Carolina, and invest $3.2 million and hire more than 500 employees there over the next five years under a Job Development Investment Grant.)

Many American grads looking to enter the tech field are preoccupied with getting rich, Vineet said. They're far less inclined than students from developing countries like India, China, Brazil, South Africa, and Ireland to spend their time learning the "boring" details of tech process, methodology, and tools--ITIL, Six Sigma, and the like.

As a result, Vineet said, most Americans are just too expensive to train--despite the Indian IT industry's reputation for having the most exhaustive boot camps in the world. To some extent, he said, students from other highly developed countries fall into the same rut.

<snip>
http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/06/top_indian_ceo.html

[Indydem]

1. Then how about you just fire the idiots who won't learn.

And give the jobs to American graduates who are willing to work.

[DBoon]

24. and it is easier to fire workers in America

than in any other country.

I thought our "flexible" labor market was supposed to make us an economic powerhouse, and make US workers the most employable in the world.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[YOY]

2. He's wrong.

Dead wrong.

[Deja Q]

70. Braindead, certainly...

But he's laughing at our expense.

What else is new.

[anigbrowl]

100. Well, you sure convinced me.

I suppose his actual experience in hiring people doesn't count for anything.

[OhioChick]

101. Very biased, I presume. See Post #14. n/t

[anigbrowl]

111. No, I just clicked on the post above expecting an explanation of *why* he's wrong.

I have my own theories (Indian management may be too hierarchical, career paths may not seem very alluring, social expectations of a job may be different). I was just expecting something more substantive.

[YOY]

120. I suppose his actual experience in promoting his particular brand of bullshit for money counts.

The man is speaking from his own ass in order to promite his own business. I have seen few situations where a particular nationality of employee is better than any other...and I am in the same business as him.

[Johonny]

3. How come all that IT help I get on the phone

sucks? Does he train them to suck?

[Oregone]

23. Those are just IT monkeys. They need zero education

They read answers out of a step book. Anyone can do that job

[Skittles]

181. I work with the so-called educated ones

THEY SUCK TOO

[rufus dog]

29. He spends little time to train them.

[Greyhound]

46. They are not IT workers, they are poorly paid, generally unskilled,call center workers.

Some do know about computers, software, and the like but they are severely restricted to the idiotic system of menus and scripts that are designed, not to help you with your problem, but to; A. sell you services and products, and B. to get you off the phone.

The conditions under which they work are appalling and I would guess that you wouldn't put up with them for a week.

They do not work for the company you bought your problem from, they work for outsourcers who are paid to keep you away from the company you want to talk to.

[Eric Condon]

57. I work for a tech support call center near Louisville and you nailed it.

I don't know if you were referring to US call centers or Indian call centers or both, but you described our situation exactly. We do support for Tivo, but our jobs are not really to support Tivo and solve problems, our jobs are really just to get off the phone in 12 minutes, which is virtually impossible if you're actually trying to fix anything. They always shove it down our throats "BE SURE TO SELL FEATURES AND BENEFITS," but I never do, because it's not my job. When they start paying me better than my shit wage and shit benefits, maybe I will.

And yes, I'm a college grad.

And yes, I'm aware that I'm one of the lucky ones, because I'm fortunate enough to make $10 an hour.

When did it get this way? My working class parents thought college was going to be my ticket to achieving anything I wanted, and it meant so much to them that they were able to send my sister an I when they hadn't been able to go themselves. So as you can imagine, it's real fun to look them in the eye and have to know that I completely wasted their money, because I might as well be cleaning up vomit for how menial this job is. I was talking to a guy at work one day who asked if I'd gone to school and I was like "yeah, I went to IU," and his immediate response was "Really? Why'd you drop out?" That pretty much sums it up.

Sorry if this is off-topic, it's just that seeing things about "unemployable" recent grads always hits a nerve with me, and that goes double when it involves call centers.

[Greyhound]

58. I understand completely. This is what "our leaders" won't talk about.

Knowledge is irrelevant for employment while post-secondary education is being converted from education to vocational training. It is all about the loans now and learning is a detriment in the workplace.

I have friends that work in call centers and I worked in one for a while, and I know I was astounded at the abuse that was SOP, I was even more shocked that the people that work there would stand for it. In my case, the place was "managed" by low-grade idiots who's primary qualification was being too lazy or too stupid to get a job anywhere else so eventually somebody made them managers. They walked around with their spreadsheets full of inaccurate statistics which they couldn't understand in any case, doling out threats and abuse or hiding so that the higher bosses wouldn't see them when they emerged from their offices.

I feel for you.
:hi:

[Eric Condon]

59. You're completely on point about the managers.

Most of the managers, or "coaches," are people who started off on the phones doing my job, but were too incompetent to actually do it. Most people like this get fired or quit, but these people are typically buddy-buddy with someone else there, and thus get promoted for their incompetence.

In the year I've been there, two of these coaches have been fired for sexual harassment, and one was fired because he failed to register as a sex offender and presumably got arrested again. The few that have actually managed to hold onto their jobs derive enormous pleasure from the infinitesimally small amount of power they've been granted, and they hector over their subordinates constantly, barking orders from their desk chairs and treating us like we're first graders.

The real problem is one that you alluded to, which is that knowledge (true knowledge and cultural awareness) is not valued in the workplace anymore. The only thing they value is the ability to take orders and behave like an automaton. Naturally, schools have adjusted their curriculum accordingly. This is as big a cancer on our society as anything else, but you're right, our leaders won't talk about it, because it would upset the delicate balance of corporate greed, which thrives on employing (and underpaying) people who have either given up and are willing to follow orders blindly, or people like me, who cling to their humanity but realize that principles don't put food on the table.

This is precisely what people mean when they use the term "wage slave."

[ellisonz]

150. Shhh....there is no "wage slavery" in the United States.

It's a free market, ownership society:sarcasm:

[rapturedbyrobots]

149. sorry

that's a tough situation you're in. no offense to yourself or anyone else with a college degree, but they are pretty useless now precisely because they are ubiquitous. a degree used to be meaningful not because it was a symbol of knowledge or skill. it was a symbol of upper-class mobility. now that anybody's kid can party for 4 years and come out with a b.a. in b.s. it means nothing and a college grad is today's equivalent of yesterday's high school grad. i think we are also over-producing advanced degrees all the way up to ph.d. i'll have one of those in neurobiology and am beginning to worry i will also be unemployable after 10 years of 'higher' ed.

[Kansas Wyatt]

139. Didn't Microsoft outsource a lot of Shitsa (Vista) to India?

Why don't we just tell India to take all their shit and get out?

[Deja Q]

182. Well, something happened between XP (2001), Longhorn (2001-2003) and Vista (2003-2006...)

XP released in 2001

Longhorn with its hyped WinFS and other features was in development from 2001 to 2003... then MS started over, called it "Vista", removed WinFS, hyped up Direct X (complete with grossly inaccurate renderings of new games for DX10), and sold Vistai n 2006 -- which was buggy and destructive as shit until SP1 (2007). Even then, it's still got big problems.

Windows 7 (2009) feels as if they went back to the XP code, moved Aero and Bitlocker to it, added some other changes, and then plopped in VirtualPC for a 'compatibility' mode.

All I know is, Apple's recent price drops for new hardware is going to kick Microsoft's chronometers. People everywhere are increasingly fed up with Microsoft. I don't often applaud people or companies failing, but for Microsoft, I'll make an exception. I've dealt with their products long enough (decades) and post-XP has been, save for elements of Office 2007, a real shambles...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. i think what he doesnt state, is that indian undergrad students go straight into grad

before looking for jobs. indian programs are designed for this.

i think that makes a lot of difference in curriculum structure

[MindPilot]

5. Having lost my IT job to outsourcing just this week...

my knickers are already twisted. So a hearty FUCK YOU to CEO Vineet Nayar.

And Six Sigma is not an IT tool you fucking twit.

[YOY]

11. Yes it's a business tool.

I suppose you could use it for code in QA and to maximize production...but he's still a fucking twit.

[MindPilot]

20. I'm a Six Sigma "green belt"

That and three bucks will get me a gallon of gas.

Yes it is a business tool and it is absolutely wonderful in a manufacturing environment where you have widgets to count, machinings to measure and costs can be figured down to a fraction of a cent.

Try to apply that to the IT world and it fails miserably because a lot of IT work is preventing and minimizing problems. You cannot empirically quantify what didn't happen.

Like you say it could be possible to apply it to production coding, but I have a tough time envisioning a scenario where a Six Sigma analysis would tell you something you didn't already know.

And yeah, he's still a fucking twit.

[FarCenter]

30. I've never seen Six Sigma applied to IT

But I think that you could use the six sigma approach to characterize the software development process, see where there are problems, and make incremental improvements.

It would be a lot better than Capability Maturity Model, which assumes that software development should be done a specific way and prescribes a particular, often obsolete (see agile development) process, mainly geared to really big developments with a lot of process -- typically what you would use for DoD.

There is also the design for six sigma process, parts of which can apply to software.

[MindPilot]

37. My employer tried mightily to apply it to everything

I was trying to make it work with desktop support and helpdesk functions; there is I think a reason you've never seen it applied to IT. My employer dropped the entire program after a couple of years.

Yeah, I suppose you could apply it to development, but I really think these kinds of "tools" are really an excuse to avoid the work required to hire competent people, pay them decently and test the finished product.

[bullwinkle428]

55. Did your boss look anything like this guy?

[Xithras]

39. What?!?! Six Sigma is heavily used in some wings of IT

Your comment, and the one above it, are examples of why the IT businesses in the US are in trouble. Businesses are run by business school wonks who are taught that Six Sigma maximizes ROI and increases product quality. When an IT firm or department embraces Six Sigma, it means they're serious about cost management, which immediately makes them popular with the suit wearing crowd. Thqat crowd writes the paychecks.

The Indian outsourcing companies know this, and are very effectively using is to move into the American IT space. Large scale US outsourcers like Northrop also push Six Sigma in IT contracting gigs. In-house IT departments and most smaller contracting firms don't use anything like it, which immediately puts them at a disadvantage when some consulting/outsourcing company walks in to schmooze their bosses/clients.

If you walk into an interview in a company that uses the model and you don't know how Six Sigma and similar models work, you're probably not going to get the job.

[mwooldri]

128. They use Six Sigma right here...

... in a credit card call centre. I only got a basic introduction to it (i.e. the so-called "white belt" certification) but they basically put it around defect elimination.

But the Indian CEO? He has a valid point but he's not totally correct. Sure there are lots of Americans and Brits and whatnot who are chasing the money, wanting to get uber-rich. But there's plenty more who like what they are doing for the heck of it. Where did all this "Free Software" come from? Like Linux? Remind me where Linus Torvalds is from again? And where he lives now? He's not exactly mega-rich though.

Mark.

[baldguy]

6. Damn uppity Americans! ... Who the hell do they think they are?

I guess we don't have the proper slave mentality.

[anonymous171]

7. OMG AMERICANS WANT TO MAKE MONEY!

Fuck him and fuck everyone who agrees with him.

[Deja Q]

+1. What he said was unacceptable. Does he work for Microsoft?

I bet he personally ensured Vista was the crown achievement of Microsoft's efficient line-up of worthy operating systems...

[Qot]

8. Oh no, American college grads refuse to be exploited

[Deja Q]

83. Maybe that's why we're dumb

:D

But given the costs of college in America, we're probably dumb for going for higher education in the first place...

Circular irony rocks...

[FSogol]

9. BS. I'll take those American grads over any of those foriegn yes-men

My company hired 6 high school teens and all of them are hardworking, dynamic, and creative. They are much better than the don't-make-any-waves yes-men HCL Technologies hires. Vineet Nayar made a fortune by paying workers less, not by developing dynamic employees.

[Greyhound]

89. I'm sure the HS kids are great, but please consider that there are many older

people that already know a hell of a lot more that would be better for your company.

[OhioChick]

98. Good point.

However, those of us with over 15 years experience "should" make more than 30K/year.

[Greyhound]

103. Agreed, but I'd rather do what I like and am good at than what I'm forced to do

through financial necessity. One of the most frustrating things about this clusterfuck.

Not one day goes by that I don't see the results of these script kiddies and the "business tools". We used to have to verify accuracy and prove performance, now as long as a query returns something it's good enough.
:grr:

Websites are another prime example, just crazy bad, bloated, and barely functional with broadband (I shudder to think what dial-up must be like now).

[OhioChick]

122. Don't even get me started on these RAD tools....

The vendors want you to believe "anyone" can develop applications with very little effort or thought. Fact is that it just widens the field of "bad code development" to a larger field. The resulting code may work some of the time, but it never works well or accurate!

[Greyhound]

145. And that's who they hire, anyone wannabes that will take shit for no money.

We told them and told them and just as with so many other issues they ignored us.

So, what do you do, if I may ask? (I mean really, not whatever job you're doing to stay alive)

[OhioChick]

148. App development (both forms and web)...

Mostly pertaining to BI.

[arcadian]

10. Are they building these places in the U.S. and THEN not hiring Americans?

I know that can't be the case, but that's how the article sounds.

[MindPilot]

13. It is the guiding principle of Indian IT

They have to convince business leaders that Americans are incompetent and stupid so they will hire H1B visa workers instead. So anytime they get the chance, the CEOs or other representatives of the big body shops will bad-mouth American workers.

[Dappleganger]

16. +1

[arcadian]

22. So they are building in America and then hiring H1B visa workers?

That is all kinds of fucked up.

[Deja Q]

84. Maybe Vineet has a point,

the CEOs and politicians think that only bringing in foreign help and paying those people and their countries' economies will do America and its economy good.

Last I've seen, with a global contraction and all, it's not doing many people very much good at all...

[DatManFromNawlins]

162. As I posted in another thread

Watch for the whining and moaning and gnashing of teeth that will come out of Edison, NJ if that bill that limits companies of 50 people or more to 50% H1-B visa holders. There are HUGE body shops there who do everything they can to undercut American IT shops.

When I was an IT recruiter, we were working with a particularly large client in the heathcare products sector. We placed about 2 dozen employees with this particular company to work on an implementation of Peoplesoft. These people were all supposed to have 36 month contracts to see the implementation through its initial phases. But about 9 months into the project, the Indian body shops had wormed their way into the building, having taken upper management out to dinner on multiple occasions and having sent them to exclusive resort destinations for vacation. This company fired the programmers on the project despite them doing excellent work, hired this Indian company's staff to take over the programming duties, so that the only people still on the project from our company were the business analysts who were writing the functional specifications for the project and doing configuration work.

The project went from being ahead of schedule to on schedule to behind schedule to WAY behind schedule. The employees we placed there largely quit the project about 18 months into the deal. They were then replaced by more Indian workers. After being a year behind schedule, they fired the Indian PM and all of his staff and rehired American workers, who now have to go through and undo a lot of the "absolute shit programming and methodology" (not my words, but the words of a consultant via a recruiter contact I have) to get the system up and running.

This shit is common. And it's even worse at companies like D***** A********* (large company that recently went bankrupt), who hire professionals to do the fit/gap analysis, then give them a ton of shit and try to get them to quit so they don't have to pay them, and then hire H1s to actually do the programming.

[Fovea]

12. oooh oooh oooh!

I know the answer to this one.

One nation subsidizes education heavily, one uses education as a cash cow
that leaves students in debt for decades.

Gosh, maybe we are not as obsessed with getting rich as we are being able to pay our usurious debt...

I hate this simplistic meme.

[Greyhound]

87. This is a very big part of the problem. n/t

[OhioChick]

14. Wipro (Indian IT Co) finds fewer than 25% of Indian grads employable:

"The problem extends even to India's much-hyped engineering graduates, who have been the backbone of the country's booming outsourcing industry in the past decade.
Every year, India produces about 650,000 engineers. But Pratik Kumar, executive vice president for human resources at the information-technology and outsourcing giant Wipro, says his company considers fewer than a quarter of them employable."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/02/AR2009050200702.html?hpid=moreheadlines

Speaks volumes coming from Wipro.

I've worked with many H-1B's from India....at many companies over years...I have yet to work with any that had PhDs.

[musette_sf]

35. +1

[Deja Q]

69. +100

[OhioChick]

80. +100?

:blush:

:hi:

[Greyhound]

90. +10 n/t

[NeedleCast]

15. Whining about employability then mentioning Six Sigma

Means you are probably an idiot.

[YOY]

19. MBAspeak. Great for industries where it actually works but not elsewhere.

Some MBAs like to throw it everywhere to make themselves look more clever...like the word "synergy"...it's a word from chemistry...but some MBAs like to use it in place of "complementary".

Personally, it makes me want to slap them.

[NeedleCast]

25. Six Sigma is a great scam

Along with most other "certification" type programs. It's created a huge cottage industry of "certification buying" where people (and, unfortunatly) managers, see these certs as the be-all, end-all of the industry. Six Sigma is especially galling with their "belt" system as if these guys are some sort of project management martial arists. I've only worked with one Six Sigma trained PM in the past and he was a total disaster any time something out of the norm occured. He sounded great during the frequent meetings we had trying to un-fuck his various projects though.

This shit is why so many American Style corporations are in the shitter...these chumps are running around trying to employ their Six Sigma best practices to real world issues and, generally, failing, because they can't think past their Six Sigma Black Belt certification class.

I work with an IT team of four. None of us have any "official" certifications. Only two of us have college degrees. It is EASILY the best IT team I have ever worked with.

[YOY]

32. As a PM that is why I don't have it.

It works in some cases...but not mine.

I'll stick with what I know.

[musette_sf]

33. +1

all that many certifications mean are that (1) you or your boss ponied up the dough for you to attend the courses and (2) you sat your ass in the seat and filled out the paperwork.

[NeedleCast]

38. Yup, I went to a SharePoint Boot Camp class recently

that reminded me exactly why I don't go to IT classes.

For $1,990 dollars I got a two day class (with boxed lunch!) which was, essentially, an "instructor" (and I use that term loosly) reading the step-by-step instructions from some random Element-K SharePoint guide. There was nothing "boot camp" about it and nothing that I couldn't have figured out by dropping 40 bucks on SharePoint for Dummies. Basically, you (or your employer, in my case) pay 2K to add a bullet to your resume (and I did that only grudgingly). Because the class is so generic and has such broad goals, it doesn't really cover anything that you might actually want to do in SharePoint when designing a real world site.

[Grinchie]

64. Thank you for the info on the Sharepoint Boot Camp.

I days of yore, I once was a Microsoft Certified Professional starting Win 3.1, and than focusing on Win 95 and WinNT. I remember the Win32 Developers Conference in 1993 that was chock full of well written Information, documentation an source code for the push towards Win32.

As the years progressed, they began requiring Certification, as well as the requiring additional employees, which did not fit well with my sole proprietorship. So I withdrew from the MCP program and watched with amazement at the proliferation of the MCSE examinations grew exponentially. At the same time, all the MCSE Exam book started showing up on the bookshelves at the Staceys and Borders. At the same time, books dealing with theory, fundamentals of software design and engineering bacame fewer in number.

Additionally, MS decided to "Enhance" MSDN, which until then was full of well written documentation regarding all things MS, and actually made it slower, less informative, and much more compartmentalized. MSDN is almost the deformed predeccessor of Microsofts failed attempts at the search engine business. At this point, it is so fat and overbloated, it is almost a painful task to fire it up, and I have a kick ass PC.

I think that Certification was just another growth industry for MS. It really is nothing more than glorifying Rote learning with standardized testing. At the same time, the documentation for the product was diminished and provided to the MSCE people to parrot to the masses duped into believing that Certification would solve all their problems.

It was an Illusion.. If Windows Vista is an example of the benefits of Certification, then I rest my case.

I no longer trust Microsoft to be looking out for my best interests when it comes to stability of product enhancemnet. They seem more involved in patching up the faults and failures of their crappy implementations long enough for the next "Major Release" of Windows. Collusion with the Hardware Vendors almost mandates new computers coupled to new OS releases, and the general inability to install an OS and forget about it for 2 years at least. Now we see ongoing maintenance, sometimes automated, which at times will actually remove functionality, out of security concerns.

Screw em. It's time to go back to basics and relearn what we have all been led to forget.

[NeedleCast]

91. I (briefly) worked for Harris Corporation about a year ago while I was between jobs

Doing some consulting work for a new section they set up to be used for internal technical training so they didn't have to rely so heavily on outside courses and paying a (horrifying) rate for an external LMS.

I was sitting in a room full of people in expensive suits and the goal of our little meeting that day was to figure out what certification they were going to pay bonuses to new hires on and which ones they should drop (the list was about 200 certs long, mostly MS and Cisco, but with some other random bullshit thrown in there). So basically if a new hire had cert (x) and cert (y) they'd get (z) hiring bonus.

So this is going on for many hours as the suits try to figure out what's worth what. I finally stand up and say "look, why don't you write technical job descriptions and go to the effort to actually have your manager interview a new IT hire with questions that can determine whether they're capable of doing a specific job instead of handing out thousands of dollars to people who have proven they can read an MS study guide and take a test?"

Silence.

It goes to show how much the IT field has started to lean on certifications. When IT project managers can't conceive of asking interview questions based on situations that might actually occur and instead just go "well, he's got a degree and he's got some certs, lets pick this one."

[YOY]

76. If you just read the book you're gold.

RTFM...not just for geeks anymore.

[valerief]

42. GWB has an MBA. Nuff said. nt

[YOY]

51. So do I.

Stop the insults please. Blueblood legacies are in a class of their own. They don't earn their positions. They are their by virture of their daddy's friends.

[valerief]

94. I'm no MBA but I'm a yellow-belt. I doubt I'll move on to their other colors. nt

[YOY]

95. Meh...6 Sigma is rather useless to me.

I've got the manuals for everything I need and a nice little set of templates that I keep in step with both simplifying and streamlining things. Standard PMI code works grand.

I just don't see it as viable outside of manufacturing...but it is overly pushed as a set of tools for everything...kinda reminds me of that Steven Covey stuff...I make my own rules :)

and I'm in the software end of transportation.

[Ikonoklast]

114. Please don't forget...

'change the paradigm'.

I want to punch in the face anyone that ever says that.

Twice.

[MindPilot]

28. LOL!!

There is cereal on my keyboard now, damnit!:spray::rofl:

[NeedleCast]

31. We'll send an H1B to replace it as soon as I can train them on how to plug in a USB device

It's not covered in Six Sigma or MSCP.

[w4rma]

17. BS. (nt)

[Recursion]

18. Six sigma? seriously?

Grads avoid that because it's worse than useless. Agile development is everything in software.

[ChromeFoundry]

21. Most American Grads Are ‘Unemployable’ at slave labor wages

the word 'fucktard' comes to mind.

[musette_sf]

26. i'll be thinking of Vineet

when i have my meeting tomorrow with an H1B who totally misunderstood the requirements, didn't review the code himself (written by "offshore") prior to implementation, and implemented something that doesn't work. funny how the last two people in his position (NOT H1Bs) seemed to have no problems understanding requirements, tech process and methodology. his methodology SUCKS.

and the Six Sigma comment is a joke.

[rufus dog]

34. but this is a perfect example of the game being won

So you have two consultants on the payroll, one to manage offshore and the developer. Some genius decided this would be more cost beneficial as compared to hiring one person who you could sit down with and define the requirements and have that person code.

Let me guess, you were told all is great until the piece of shit code was delivered. No tomorrow you will hear the finger pointing that the specs were unclear. So you need to add the true cost of having someone spend 3x time creating specs for offshore.

[musette_sf]

36. oh, i've already gotten "the specs were unclear"

SO DON'T FORGE AHEAD WITHOUT GETTING CLARIFICATION.

now i will spend 3x the time really needed to get this POS fixed.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

75. I spent a good portion of my life cleaning up the shit left by Indian developers

and made a lot of money doing it. Much of the code I've seen (and cleaned up) is technically sound without having any basis in practicality. It's like many of these Indian grads learn exactly how the technology works, but never learn how humans (especially Americans) function.

For example, one piece of software I worked on required the user to remember long numbers that were used to identify vendors. Amazingly, the Indian company that built the software didn't give them a way to search by vendor name, address, etc - all the lookups had to be done using the vendor identification number. The users ended up with large lists of numbers that they stored in Excel spreadsheets so they could look up vendors in the system. And while the number search technically matched the specs, the fact that something as fundamental as this made it through the first phase of development is mind blowing to me.

[rufus dog]

27. Oh this is going to be a rant

Nayar - Your workers were not raised in a Caste System and have the audacity to actually question managers.

Nayar - Your workers are not reluctant to phony up a resume to meet your current outsourcing requirement.

Navar - Your workers are, based upon the reluctance to put anything on a resume, do not request training on the methodology and software that you represent them as knowledgeable, thus raising your costs.


So although I have a big FUCK YOU for Navar, it is not his fault, he is playing the game. And US corps are driving the gamesmanship.

[Grinchie]

72. I once was responsible for reviewing Resume's while at Intel

All of them were H1-B's, and after reviewing many of them, they all had the same work experience at the Ministry of Parliment. The text was boilerplate and identical.

Since I was at Intel, I utilized its great wealth to attempt to verify the information, and all I was able to do is get someone on the phone that spoke broken english that could not comprehend that someone was doing a personnel check.

Of course, the ultimate person that made it through my check passed the interview OK, but was not the sharpest tack in the room. However, the other team members relented and hired the person.

After being given explicit instructions on the design of a module, they ignored it and basically did it their way. They were in, and they knew it.

[stray cat]

40. In my limited experience - the students from the top schools in India

have a much stronger background in the biological sciences than those from the best schools in the US. Thats the idea of free government schools if you don't make the grade early you don't go - so those students work hard in highschool so they can go to the excellent free universities.

[OhioChick]

44. See Post #14. Should enlighten you. n/t

[conscious evolution]

41. Very true

I have seen way to many people over the years work more on their career than their job.I have fired many a worker over the years for this and I will continue to do so as there is nothingthat will wreck a business faster than incompetent ass kissers,bootlickers and yes-men.

Sigma six? That has to be the biggest bullshit management fad since TQM.

[One of Many]

47. TQM, bs mgmt fad?

"41. Very true

... biggest bullshit management fad since TQM."


Tell that to Ford, Chrysler, GM and the Japanese auto industry ... lol

[MindPilot]

54. New name--same process

before TQM, it was ZD and before that it was the "efficiency expert" standing behind the worker with a stopwatch.

And yes, auto manufacturing is a perfect place to apply those techniques.

BTW how is that TQM program working out for GM & Chrysler? :D

[krabigirl]

53. agree with you. And yeah, Six Sigma is total bs.

[conscious evolution]

61. At a prominent Atlanta university

sigma six is seen as a good money maker for the school.
How do I know this?A friend of mine is the person who taught it at one time and he flat out told me that is what it was all about-Providing a revenue stream for the university.

[Greyhound]

92. You can substitute any tool certification program in that statement.

It's just another loan processing scheme, meaningless in understanding what is needed or in filling those needs.

[TahitiNut]

43. "preoccupied with getting rich" == unwilling to work for a 3rd world wage

Vineet is just chock full of SHIT.

[bridgit]

45. Sir, please shutdown your call centers and send the work anywhere but India and so it is...

that for all your millennia of human development, elephants and Raj'y monarchs I still can't understanding a thing you're talking about on the phone and tell that idiot of yours to stop suggesting that I "reload" my sound card and authorize a fucking replacement you don't have to be a genius to know that when it's busted it's broke, sheesh! That can't be your idea of an intelligent workforce and yeah yeah yeah I seen Monsoon Wedding, so stop already turning a blind eye to your lower caste washing their feet in a plastic bucket.

edit for: -s-

[proteus_lives]

48. Whatever.

I think he's just covering his own ass because of all the visa stuff.

The best IT guy I've ever met didn't even go to college.

[Stevenmarc]

49. Too bad Americans weren't born with a caste system mentality

where everyone knows their place.

[LeftHander]

50. India IT culture is "Git er' done" mentality....

the crappiest, bloated code I have seen comes from India coding "sweatshops".

[Deja Q]

68. Vista pushed me into Mac territory to be sure...

Uncle Steve (Ballmer) can threaten to offshore all he wants. Apple's been doing remarkably well with computer sales and are top ranked by Consumer Reports.

[backscatter712]

52. Asshole!

It's excuse of the week to hire Indians instead of Americans.

We all know the true reason: Indians are cheaper, and our heads-up-asses Congress are continuing to give away the store with NAFTA-style trade agreements that undercut us.

[Greyhound]

56. Using "tools" and memorizing methodologies IS NOT "IT"!

This is what happened to the golden egg laying goose. Learning how computers do what they do, understanding the process at the machine level and the capabilities of the "magic box" is IT and the corporations and Clinton administration cooked it up to create a few billionaires.

All this asshole is talking about (along with the parasites and mangers that run what is now called IT) are tools. Just memorize the words, scripts, and idiosyncrasies that are specific to the tool some MBA picked because they had a cool sales presentation and kicked back a few bucks.

Most of those referred to as IT workers today are nothing but low-level, cheap, script kiddies. They know what buttons to push and what incantations to write to make the box do something. Unfortunately they don't know how the box works and therefore can't fix it when it doesn't. Just go buy another tool and let that one try. Result; an OS that is over 50,000,000 lines of code + drivers and can bring a Cray to it's knees.

These tools write the code, and just as we told the brain-dead MBAs for years, computers can't write tight, efficient code. Because it can't think, programs written by computers are inherently inefficient, it has to address every problem through a brute-force approach. There is no elegance and the bloat grows exponentially.

That is why the awesomely powerful box you're sitting front of right now is so damn slow and makes so many stupid mistakes.

"Unemployable" in Indian, means they want to earn a living and will question authority, two things Indian society will not tolerate. They want trained monkeys, not knowledgeable human beings.

[musette_sf]

62. +1

[Greyhound]

63. Thanks, glad somebody read it. Here's another kick for a thread that might

actually be relevant to some people's lives.
:kick:

[Grinchie]

74. Not true, Once they get in, you only get the appearance of obedience

The training is superficial in many cases, which is why the quality of software varies so much.

There are many very intelligent H1-B's, and once to find one, it is a godsend. Unfortunately, 85% of them are seat fillers provided by the IT Outsourcing firms.

[Greyhound]

86. There are many great developers from everywhere and there are many more terrible

developers from the same places. But beyond that, the primary reason IT is in such a terrible state is that the people that control the purse strings don't have the first clue what they're doing. This is what happens when mediocre minds, armed with spreadsheets and the single mandate of eliminating costs, are allowed to make all the decisions.

And there are still millions of un/under employed American IT workers available.

[leftyclimber]

93. Bingo.

Left software QA a couple of months before the tech bubble burst, about the time when we were starting to create images, scripts, and QA manuals to ship to the "additional help" we were starting to get from "outside consultants" in India. They couldn't even follow a fucking TEST PLAN at this joint, which is like "click x. Click y. This is what should happen. did it work? Report back in detail if that's not what happened." It was an unmitigated disaster, but upper management just saw dollar signs.

At that point I think they were keeping us on in North America so we could do all the "consultant" work over, because we did that a LOT. Then upper management stopped caring at all, because they realized people would buy their shit whether it was decent or not, and they could sell utter crap at a higher profit margin if they unloaded us. And by "us" I mean the talented people from all over the world who knew how the boxes worked and busted our asses to turn out something we were proud of.

But the writing was on the wall. I cashed in my options and got the hell out of Dodge. Haven't been able to find a steady job since, so I went back to grad school, where I am now.

We were all willing to be lifers there. It was a good place to work. Now we're all just fucking bitter.

[Greyhound]

107. People would be shocked to know how many times this story

has been repeated over the last decade with only slight variations.

One of the most ignored news stories of the century.

Disgusting.
:puke:

[leftyclimber]

138. And yet people will still gripe about how crappy their software is.

Believe it or not, folks, there was once a bunch of development folks who really wanted to deliver really good stuff to you. We were there. We were.

[TahitiNut]

141. Tell me about it. I was a Systems Programmer back when we actually wrote SYSTEMS CODE.

I knew the O/S inside/out and comprehended error-free reentrant coding techniques better than some knew where their desks were. I wrote critical O/S code ... for telecomm, database, and systems error recovery (BEFORE there were 'products' purporting to do it). I wrote microcode. I wrote machine code. I wrote channel programs. I wrote a Relational Data Management system for financial planning BEFORE IBM could even spell SQL. When we installed a new release of an O/S, we KNEW it cold ... at the code level. I could run barefoot through a 'hexadecimal report' and find the cow turds. I had my eyes glued to fiche readers more than boob tubers watch TV. Then came the Object-Code-Only days ... and (so-called) systems administrators that didn't know their ASP from their BAL. In the latter years, I was constantly nauseated by the Son-Of-Autocoder types who regarded themselves as Masters of the Universe. Idiots.

[leftyclimber]

146. Oh, TahitiNut.

I used to bust your code for you.

I miss you. I really do.

[Greyhound]

163. OMG, a paleo-geek! I am in awe.

My regards and thanks.

Greyhound

[TahitiNut]

165. Yup. I was "in" on the development of Ethernet, too.

Working at Xerox, I knew Metcalf and Boggs and was a "early adopter" of Xerox's research internet. I programmed CSMA/CD shit before people knew a 'net was for more than hair and fish. I was a user of the Arpanet ... and Autovon and Autodin even before that. I programmed Z80-based CP/M machines to do emulation on the internet. I knew the Z80 SIO chip like it was a child of mine. I did asynchronous comm programming in Macro Assembler ... like tip-toing through the tulips. I did SIO/PIO device emulation on "big board" ... providing a test bed for a variety of medical and telemetry device monitoring.

I loved it. For some reason, my brain works in a way that allows me to "live" in that 'virtual reality' of asynchronous event programming. The same 'mentality' served me well in analyzing the complexities of organizational behavior in an Audit and Operational Analysis role.

[NightWatcher]

60. if I could find India on a map, I'd go kick his ass

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

67. It's on the island of Hispaniola

that's where Columbus found it.

:hi:

[hayu_lol]

73. If you are looking for a weekend flick to watch...

get OUTSOURCED and sit back for an hour or so of bellylaughs and high comedy.

Storyline is of an American executive shifted to India to train his replacement in an Indian call center...and all that that entails.

The film is a riot throughout.

[Grinchie]

81. I agree, "Outsourced" was a lot of fun.

I was outsourced years back which forced me into Bankrupcty. I left the IT Industry and turned into a Farmer.

I know this is one career that I'll have for a lifetime, and the benefits it provides are innumerable. The thought of spending my life in a cubicle behind a screen 8 to 10 hours a day for a wage that is nothing more than Monopoly money tranferring the fruit of my labor to the Government via taxes, and the Corporations through profits no longer interests me.

I recently watched the movie "America: Freedom to Fascism", which proposes that taxes on an individuals wages in exchange for labor is "Voluntary" and not "Mandatory" like we are led to believe.

So I questioned, how are we led to believe that Filing a 1040 is Mandatory, and it led me to this conclusion.

When you work for a company, they withhold a certain amount from your paycheck. At the end of the year, this is a considerable amount, and you have not seens any use of this money for an entire year. In order to get it back, YOU MUST FILE A 1040 IN ORDER TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK! Otherwise, you forfeit it all.

That one fact alone places you into the requirement to file a State return, which in California, is mandated only if you are required to file a Federal Tax return.

What this means to me is that the Employer reinforces the need to file a 1040, only because you need to get your own money back! It is only then that we get suckered into the myth that taxes on wages in exchange for our personal labor is taxable.

It's a wonderful scam. It's a positive feedback loop that suckers millions of Americans in every year.

To get a better understanding of the ramifications of this, you can watch the Full movie on Google video. The Director, Aaron Russo also has some other interesting interviews on the web. One of them discussed a Tax rule change for the AMT that was implemented Retroactively for two years! Thats right, you follow the law, then they change the law and make it retroactive, snaring many people in Back Tax hell. (TAMRA) and the 1986 Tax Reform Act.

I get the impression that Corporate America knows about the income tax scam and plays along.

[devilgrrl]

65. Bullshit.

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

66. Vineet,

fuck you.

[high density]

71. Americans too expensive to train! Wow.

That is a new one. The fact is that nobody in Corporate America wants to train. They want somebody to come in on the job with five years of experience so the worker already knows how to do it. This is great for people mid-career but makes an impossible job market for fresh grads. Right now Corporate America is carrying out a self-fulfilling prophecy where they whine there are not enough people for the jobs while not offering opportunities where inexperienced entry-level people can grow.

[Greyhound]

96. Nope, those of us with that have that are too old, too expensive, too sick, whatever.

About 10 years ago, after being requested to deliver the bad news to the floor, I asked the CEO of a mid-sized software company, "If you fire all the junior developers to use cheap outsourced code, where will you get your next generation of senior developers?"

He glared at me and left the room.

Three years later the company was gone and their only decent app was in the hands of Vivendi. Of course he didn't give a shit, he got several million bucks and went off the beach somewhere.
:grr:

[Deja Q]

77. Hey Vineet, do you do your work to make money? Can you understand the idea that your boss wants to

make money too -- off your labor and talent? ;)

:dunce:

Naah.

:dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce::dunce:

[MrScorpio]

78. One person's living progressive wage and full health benefits is another person's "rich"

The global economy is still working out all the kinks

[Deja Q]

79. In the end, Ballmer (money-making, 'survival of the fittest') will be rich and the rest of the world

will be bass-ackwards poor.

:shrug:

I want to share your optimism, but blind jibes like his only provoke antagonism. Rightly so, I regret to say.

[Grinchie]

82. Rich doesn't necessarily mean "Healthy" or "Well Fed"

If these people are unable to produce the basics of life, when the money loses it's value, they will be in the same boat as the rest of the world.

Money means nothing if nobody wants to work for it anymore, and focus on living a rich, rewarding and meaningful life.

[Deja Q]

85. Well, in order to obtain a rich, rewarding, and meaningful life, we need money.

:shrug:

Once you re-order global society, let me know. Until we are, I am pro-America. If some paradigm shift happens, I'll analyze the scenario at that point.

[bridgit]

102. Or "wise"

[NashVegas]

88. Take a Look At Twitter. Everyone Wants to Be Fucking Richard Branson

And none of them want to sell albums out of their trunk for two years, or struggle with running and growing a small business from the ground up.

They all want to be name brand entrepreneurs who spend millions of other peoples' money to infuse a start-up, sell it a year later and move to the next thing.

The trouble isn't American education, it's American morals, or the lack of them.


The half that doesn't want to be Richard Branson wants to be Seth Godin, who is nothing if not PT Barnum for the online marketing crowd.

[alarimer]

97. Translation from CEO-speak:

They are unemployable at the wages CEOs want to pay.

[OhioChick]

99. Bingo! n/t

[One of Many]

104. Wow

This entire thread, IMHO, is a case study in why the US is getting it's ass handed to it in business. A stream of arrogant, borderline racist and emotionally deficient US workers blaming anyone and everyone but themselves for not stacking up in the market place. It's management's fault, it's the process guy, it's India, it's the lawmakers .. anyone but us. Totally unwilling to pursue new methods or use new tools to better serve their customers. Eff training, we don't need it and it stinks anyway and also people with certifications are dooshes. Honestly, look in the mirror and start asking some hard questions of yourselves. The underdeveloped countries are in it to win it and are hungry as hell. You on the other hand are content to call BS on anything and everything new or different while suckling at every last drop of crap the corporate grapevine will add to your crappy attitudes. Not a single solution in this entire thread, nothing but blame for everyone but yourselves. Get a frikkin' grip.

[OhioChick]

105. Get a fucking life.

Signed up today just to post shit like that?

[One of Many]

106. Yep

and?

[OhioChick]

108. Speaks Volumes..... n/t

[Greyhound]

109. Enjoy your stay, the pizza's on the way. n/t

[bridgit]

110. hhahahahaha, no, wait - Pft, I can't take it!!

:spray: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[One of Many]

115. back atcha

It's ok not to post if you have nothing to add. Really.

[ChromeFoundry]

117. when are you going to follow your own advice? n/t

[One of Many]

119. Fair enough

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5782804&mesg_id=5786934

[high density]

118. Not stacking up.

Yeah, sorry for not wanting to work for $7/hr.

[One of Many]

136. Yea

'cause you're entitled to more right? Who cares what you make as long as your costs are in line with your wage? Are you in a race or something?

[high density]

140. How is the wage of an Indian in line with the cost of living in the USA?

The fact is that the cost of living in USA is vastly different than India. Corporate America is doing their best to create a wage parity between the two and now wonders why we aren't buying lots of new cars, homes, etc.

OK, that's enough responding to the trolls for one night.

[One of Many]

142. You're right

and that (or a combo of cost and value) will have to equalize one way or another.

[conspirator]

125. Ha ha ha! "Totally unwilling to pursue new methods" You mean ...

getting paid a slave wage for a stressful job that is writing quality code.
This same shit is happening in UK. They want to pay macdonalds salaries to software developers.
Let the indian geeks who "pursue new methods" do it then, those salaries are not worth the stress.
Lets see the quality of the work and the costs of maintenance in the long term.

[One of Many]

127. Yeah that'll work

Ignore, entrench, resist ... big help that.

I say compete on every level, stick it to them, and prove that you did.

grumpy entitlement attitudes are not helpful to you or your peers no matter how you serve it up.

[conspirator]

129. Sorry, slavery is not for me. Some people would accept it. I rather face extintion nt

[One of Many]

134. say hello

to the t-rex. I choose not to lay down.

[Hannah Bell]

157. skilled work for $7/hr without complaint = "laying down".

[Deja Q]

175. Nice response.

:thumbsup:

Sadly true, however.

[HughBeaumont]

126. Lighten up, Francis.

The US is handing itself it's own ass in business, part and parcel because China and India have volunteered themselves to become the wealthy's personal slave states. Don't know why modern MBA schools forgot to teach or factor in their faith-based Freidman equations the very concrete standard that is "gainfully employed people have to buy your products; otherwise, you'll have no business." DUUUUURRRR!

No, let's just fire everyone that's too expensive, (even though the average American wage hasn't risen in real dollars since 1979) and hope they'll all get new jobs making the same as they did or more! Then, we'll be in BIZNEZZ!! :eyes:

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OhioChick]

131. +1 n/t

[One of Many]

133. again

added nothing. thanks for playing. kthksbai.

[sendero]

135. There's nothing to add..

.... you get it or you don't. It's clear that you don't and you didn't answer my question for obvious reasons.

[One of Many]

137. got IT?

I did answer your question so .. huh?

[OhioChick]

143. Is that you, Vineet? n/t

[Azlady]

147. Please explain what..

"kthksbai" means, One of Many

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[notadmblnd]

155. And just what would you like on your pizza?

deep dish or thin crust?

[DatManFromNawlins]

160. Why not talk about something you have a clue about?

And leave the adult conversation to the adults, mmmmkay?

We are talking about skills here, not something you can learn by sitting and reading a book. Most of these skills you only learn by getting experience in a working environment. Many more are prohibitively expensive for your average employee to get on their own dime... we're talking classes in the neighborhood of $8-30K a pop. And the Indians? They don't know this shit EITHER. But they'll slap it on their resumes along with their "engineering" degrees (which means they paid for a diploma mill certificate), get hired by an H1 firm, and then learn on the job for pennies on the dollar. This is how American companies get around the entire H1 issue. They're supposed to hire H1s when there is a lack of skilled American workers, and since the H1s will work for scraps and lie on their resumes, then the companies can cover their asses by saying "hey, look at the nice resume!"

But then, I've actually done IT work and have been an IT recruiter. I've read more resumes in a week than you've probably seen in your entire life.

[One of Many]

169. Nothing new

Snarky personal attack. Sweeping generalizations, labels, and accusations. Topped off with a statement that you can't prove nor that has any bearing on the topic. fail.

[Deja Q]

174. "Pat, I'll try to take a clue for $500".

Pat: "No, you can only buy a clue."

So, One of many, here's a clue: It's about money, quality, and perceived benefits. Nothing tangible.

BTW: We've dealt with the results of your countries: Cheaply built, toxic garbage... the IT programming and service being worse. And if you want to talk arrogance, let me know -- I'll dig up a few URLs to sites featuring some "underdeveloped" people in all their blatant arrogant glory.

One more clue: You're being played for as fools, just like the rest of us are. Once it's cheaper for work to come back to "developed" countries, what will you do then?

[Deja Q]

178. To lose is to win and he who wins shall lose.

BTW: You think we're suckling? WTFF do you think you're doing? Why, yes, you're suckling too! Or just sucking, since you can't see the whole situation...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

113. Translation: They want a fair wage

This guy is no better than the CEO turds who cry about US and state labor laws. Cheap labor is what it's all about now.

[One of Many]

116. Agreed

So solution #1 - Turn the tables. The US should adopt a policy that to do business with this country, to import products and services, the supplier and all of their suppliers must abide by agreed upon labor and wage standards.

[ChromeFoundry]

121. This approach was tried in NAFTA

Great idea. But, along with environmental line items...lobbyists always get their way at the end of the day.

[One of Many]

123. Thousands of light bulbs that didn't work

So we should try it again.

and again.

etc.

Solution #2 - A personal one, lower your own cost of living, whatever that takes. Move to the sticks. Buy a used car. Whatever. If wage is the driver then beat them on wage (price) plus value. There is a point at which a (lowered) but higher wage plus better value wins over cheap at all costs. Pressure your own suppliers (cable, internet, power, gas, etc) to do the same. Drive down prices locally to compete globally. Shitty option maybe but there it is. Beat them at their own game all the time lauding the more respectful and sustainable labor protections in the US where they exist.

[Juche]

156. Why not pressure them to raise costs instead

China's currency is undervalued as it is. I know this thread is about India, but outsourcing involves China heavily too.

Not only that, but by requiring places like China or India to allow more labor unions and more environmental protections will make them more expensive, and easier to compete with.

We should not adopt the labor and environmental standards of China to compete. Why can't China improve its labor and environmental standards to keep up with ours instead?

Aren't wages in India and China doubling every 5-7 years or so as is? Ask them to reevaluate their currency (if undervalued), to increase environmental standards and allow labor unions and the US becomes more competitive.

[quakerboy]

159. Nice try

But that is not possible for most.

India's Per capita income is $820. Can you eat on that? I probably could, but there would be no clothing, no car, no home. If I live in a box outside the office, I might be able to live on that wage. As long as my boss doesn't care if I shower or wash my clothing.

And the next time you manage to persuade Comcast and Texaco to lower their prices to accommodate, let me know, because last time I looked they were both raising, not lowering their prices.

I would propose tariffs. Make the same work cost the purchaser the same whether it comes from here or there. If they choose to go with a less protected worker there, then the extra goes to the government to make sure workers are taken care of(health care, anyone?). And they should do the same. If we grow corn and sell it cheaper than their farmers, they should tax the imports to even it out. Each country and company should prosper or not based on product and the "value added", not based on their ability to manipulate markets or labor conditions.

[Yavin4]

124. I Traveled To India Last Year To Hire Programmers/DBAs

I went to Bangalore India last year to hire programmers/DBAs for a start up company, and I was shocked to learn that most of the applicants did not even have a computer at home. In fact, most of their IT workforce do not have computers at home.

We didn't even get that many applicants, approx. 50, and they didn't exactly blow me away. We could have gone any where in the U.S., and we could have found the same level of applicant or even higher.

Indian IT is a lot of hype. They're competitive primarily because of their low cost.

[roamer65]

170. Bingo. Low cost and extremely mediocre.

I have had to work with a lot of Indians, and they don't seem to be any smarter than the comparable American IT worker. Just like us, some are good, some are crap.

[notadmblnd]

151. Sounds like a bigot/racist/prejudiced person

and he's full of shit too.

[Juche]

152. Every education system has its flaws

Find me a nation that produces people who are not only good workers in their particular field, but also people who are creative and knowledgable about various aspects of their field, who can deal with new and novel situations and who have great interpersonal skills.

I have heard Indians are very good, but their education system trains them to almost shut down in a new setting, and does not really emphasize social skills.

Chinese and other southeast asian cultures seem to have problems too with their educations.

So unless someone figures out the perfect educational system, I am not impressed.

Plus you have to realize education should make you a better citizen too, not just a better employee. It should make you better at critical thinking, more introspective, more civic, etc.

[DatManFromNawlins]

161. There is no flaw in the educational system with regards to IT

If you go to school to be a process tech, you still have to be trained when you graduate to learn how to work on the specific equipment you will be in charge of.

If you go to school to be a lawyer, you don't start handling cases on day 1. You learn from other lawyers on the job.

If you go to school to become a doctor, you don't get to have autonomy regarding patients as soon as you graduate. You still have to go through residency.

So why on Earth would anyone expect a computer science graduate, who has just completed one of the more rigorous degree programs there is, would automagically know everything there is to know about an IT system he's never seen before? It takes on the job training, just as every other job in this country. And even the term "IT" is a misnomer. What does that entail? Is it networking? Is it database design? Is it software architecture? Is it chip design?

How about this: you say you are a ERP systems programmer. Which one? BAAN? Peoplesoft? Oracle? SAP? JD Edwards? Agresso? Epicor? Sage? None of them are the same. They all have different architectures, different program logic, different ways that they store data, different programming languages. And then once you've figured out which one you're working on, you don't suddenly know how to work with all the modules. General Ledger? AP? AR? Business Warehouses? APO? Supply Chain management? etc, etc. Each of these modules for each of these systems is so complex that you will often need 2 or 3 programmers working on one of them simply to handle the load.

I doubt there's a single person posting in this thread who has railed against American IT workers who could pass even a sophomore level computer science curriculum. They are almost uniformly a bunch of dumbasses who have no clue about what it takes to work in the IT fields.

[Canuckistanian]

153. Fact: Most CEO's are assholes

Doesn't seem to hinder their employability, though.

[Zynx]

164. Most CEOs are overpaid and overglorified bureaucrats.

[seabeyond]

154. we hard the same bullshit a decade adn half ago from japan. n/t

[armyowalgreens]

158. In other words, we demand fair pay.

Nice one sir. I'll be graduating in a few years and I'm not looking to get rich. But I'm also not looking for a job that barely covers my rent.

[Dob Bole]

166. My last job was doing Tech Support for $7.50 an hour...

so he's wrong. And frankly, the higher the unemployment rate gets, the more wrong he'll get.

[Deja Q]

176. I've been in tech support. Give that to anybody else who wants it:

I've been in that arena for 2 decades and I'm getting tired of being the scapegoat for poorly made garbage when not dealing with end users who don't know where the bloody "ESC" is... (One of many reasons we're not adopting Vista... and in all probability Windows 7 too.)

[JDPriestly]

167. And the Obama administration refuses to renegotiate trade agreements

or simply break them by taxing imports and shutting our borders to these creeps. We need free college education so that our students can think about developing their knowledge and skills instead of about how in the world they are going to repay their student loans.

Our "capitalist" system is not working, and I have never been a socialist, never. But what we are doing today is not working, and it is about as close to "pure market economics" as it gets -- too close to work I am realizing.

[EricSmith]

168. It is India, Inc typical MO.

Wipro CEO: "It's a method of competitiveness. Currently, I think it's a non-issue because the talent is not available in the U.S. So what jobs are we depriving people of? I'm very clear: You are getting into another shortage of IT professionals and those who complain they are not getting jobs, their jobs are getting displaced, are going to be on the fire list anyway because they were not doing their jobs well enough. I don't think they are being deprived of their jobs because of outsourcing."

http://www.mercurynews.com/bizreports/ci_4765737

[Deja Q]

173. Don't worry, he too will change his statements when he realizes it's about sticker costs only

[Orsino]

171. "Too expensive to train" =

"unlikely to be satisfied with repeating a boring script two hundred times per day."

[Omar4Dems]

172. Sadly, he may be right

Education and skills training is low priority in the USA now. :cry:

[Rebubula]

177. Meh...

...so some dick from a country with more people in poverty that live in the entire US, a class system that would make a Southern Plantation owner blush and pandemic pollution is insulting our graduates...Hmmmm....so what?

He may be right, but he still needs to look in the mirror...

[RagAss]

179. he lies. The lies fill his pockets with $. The US CEO's play along because the labor is cheap.

A fucking monkey could see through this shit !

[Skittles]

180. as someone who has to work with offshore "Indian grads"

I can say for a fact Vineet is full of SHIT

[EvolveOrConvolve]

183. Amen to that

I've worked with many, many Indians who were great people and average "engineers" (I put the word in quotes because many don't seem to know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to electronics, IT, software design, etc.)

Plain and simple, Vineet wants to save money by purchasing cheap labor. I don't have a fancy MBA degree, but even I know that saving a buck now costs $10 later; unfortunately, CEO's are paid on the next quarter's projections and not what is going to happen to the company in 1 or 5 or even 10 years. That's part of the reason our economy is in the shitter right now - assholes like Vineet who can't see past the quarterly income statements and their own compensation package.