release of more torture pics undermines current charm offensive

[Sp00kD out]

It occurred to me that the release of "new" prisoner abuse photos would completely undermine the current obama charm offensive. It would only inflame the tensions that the obama administration is trying to cool. Any success in the middle east and against muslim extremists depends on turning over a new leaf and neutralizing recruitment to extremist groups. When the majority of muslims take a moderate, rational view of the west, the extremists are pushed to the fringe, and we might just have a chance for some semblance of "victory".

[katandmoon]

1. Would you still feel that way if Bush were president?

[Cant trust em]

2. I've been asking myself that question a lot recently

I think that in many cases, I didn't really think too critically of Bush when he was in office. It was really easy to jump on the bandwagon here at DU. Now that Obama has taken office, I find myself re-examining positions that I never really gave too much thought.

[katandmoon]

7. It's known as the Obama bandwagon

[Cant trust em]

9. I figured you'd say that.

You could also call it the Bush bandwagon.

[Winterblues]

3. When would/did Bush* ever have a "Charm" campaign?

If we remember it was the Bush* Cabal that created the pictures and the events they depict..We know why Bush* would balk at their release but Obama??????

[Sp00kD out]

8. of course not

It was his administration's policies that led to the abuse in the first place. It is precisely the damage caused by the previous administration that obama's foreign policy agenda is trying to undo.

[Soylent Brice]

4. all excellent points, but when someone states

transparency has a place in their administration you can't suddenly claim "takesie backsies". it's not like we're on the playground and the popular guy gets to make up the rules as the game progresses.

he had it right the first time when he started releasing the memos. he had it right with transparency. backpedaling is for the repuliCON party.

i understand what his intent is. i am all for the safety of our troops, BUT there is a significant majority of people in this country who will never wake the fuck up unless they are completely shocked out of their apathetic existences.

america needs a shot of penicilin to cure our apathy and complacency, and those photos are just the right dosage if you ask me.

welcome to DU. we're all pretty much split here on this issue, so more power to you for being able to present a clear, concise, non flame-baiting argument on the subject.

[Cant trust em]

5. I feel like the administratin has struck a fine balance on this one

I think they've definitely made moves towards more transparency and rode the line pretty finely.

It's a close one to be sure.

[Soylent Brice]

11. toeing the line has never worked for either side. too easy to misstep and fall.

[Cant trust em]

13. Sorry, but I think that these decision are too complicated

for such a simplistic outlook. I think it's a false choice to say that you either have to be transparent and release everything, or value security so you release nothing.

[Soylent Brice]

16. i see your point, but that begs the question: who's the "decider" then?

i've heard that rhetoric before. * the "decider", making those "tough decisions" that are keeping us little simple-minded folks safe at home.

* convinced americans the patrioct act, military commisions act, and the warantless wiretapping, was all part of this "complex" plan to keep us all so safe and snuggly.

and if we can't release the photos now, then when? after we pull out of iraq and afghanistan will we hear the, "let's move forward and put the past behind us" meme again?

this country is in a perpetual state of denial.

[Cant trust em]

17. That's why I think that releasing the torture memos, but possibly not the photos

strikes the right balance. It sparked a lot of debate and anyone who saw the Mancow thing should get the point now. I think that releasing the photos might go a little too far. I don't think that the photo release is the be all and end all of the torture transparency.

[Soylent Brice]

23. RWers don't care if Mancow think it's torture.

and photos aren't the end all. it's the truth. the holocaust wasn't pretty, yet there's a whole museum dedicated to photos and documentation.

why is it so important to publicly display atrocities that other countries have wrought, but not our own? does our proverbial shit not stink?

BTW, i'm glad to have been able to debate this with someone who has been so respectful of my opinions. thank you. it doesn't happen often, and i wanted to thank you. as well as Sp00kD out for presenting this OP in such a manner as to open a civil debate.

[Cant trust em]

28. The holocaust memorial didn't come out until long afterward

Also, I'm not sure about any possible backlash with its release. In that analogy, the counter argument would have been that by opening the memorial, the Jewish population would be enraged and ignite a violent insurgency against Germany. I'm not sure that there's a parallel between that and how the muslim world would react. We're in a very precarious position right now. Obama has built up a little more goodwill in that part of the world and I am concerned that this could blow the lid off of a situation that is just simmering.

As for the Mancow, I think you're right and the RW doesn't care. But most people in the country aren't RW. They're in the middle. They are the ones who are able to be influenced and likely were when they saw his interview on Olbermann.

I've also appreciated the tone of this dialogue. It is a rarity these days when we can honestly speak our opinions without being yelled at.

[Mari333]

6. I am sure that Germany wasnt too happy with pictures of the Holocaust either

but if the truth isnt brought into the light, it will fester .
the photos need to be released, the healing only comes AFTER that.

[Sp00kD out]

10. perhaps the time for healing

can happen when we get out of the clusterfucks in afghanistan and iraq. It is my opinion that everything should see the light of day, but not while we are trying to win the hearts and minds of the midde east. I am all for presecution of crimes, but the public doesn't need to see these pics for that to happen. Broadcasting those photos now would undermine our best shot at bringing our men and women in the military home. When they are out of harms way, the healing can truly begin.

[Mari333]

14. thats the excuse that Bush used

I didnt buy it then, I dont buy it now.

[Sp00kD out]

18. im not making excuses

for anyone, just stating what I find to be obvious. I don't feel the need to defend or justify anyones actions but my own. You must admit that releasing the pics would have negative consequences for the newly found middle east diplomacy...and if you can't, then you must be unable to reason.

[Mari333]

22. the consequences would be that we wouldnt be covering up

and the middle east knows when we cover up...we need to not only show the pictures, we need to apologize and make amends.
until then, why should they trust anything we say? we are still occupying 2 countries and bombing their people and stealing their oil..our diplomacy is bullshit until we own up to our behaviour.

[Soylent Brice]

15. i'm sure his speech has helped a lot of folks in the middle east

come to realize we mean to repair broken ties with that part of the world, but the arab world has also asked in response to his speech that actions speak louder than words, and to back it up with said action.

just as we are.

also, broadcasting those photos would not change the image of our troops in the minds of arabs any more than seeing a predator drone come swooping over their village on it's way to blow up a mosque suspected of housing terrorists. they've seen enough civilian casualties to make their own assessment of our troops at this point.

[Soylent Brice]

12. +1

how do we heal as a nation if we don't know exactly what we're healing from. too much speculation and conjecture about what photos are and aren't. with so many outside sources confirming the worst, it means nothing still if proof is no where to be found.

the approach being taken still leaves way too much room for "torture deniers".

[Uncle Joe]

19. Just for a hypothetical, lets say China invaded the U.S.

bombed, raped, tortured and held indefinitely; breaking all norms of civilized international behavior, treaty and obligation, members of your family, friends and neighbors.

Finally China changes leadership and the new attitude is, we're sorry but let's just look forward and forget about those un-pleasantries, would you be charmed?

On the other hand what if the new leaders in China pulled all the stops out to expose and prosecute their own previous leaders for imposing those policies which resulted in the unjust hurt and pain suffered by your family, friends and neighbors, would you be inflamed or would this give you a different perspective regarding a dominant nation so powerful and confident as to prosecute it's own top leaders for war crimes? Would this give you pause regarding the endless propaganda drummed in to you as to the character of this demonized nation?

I believe cold, hard, blind, justice for the leaders, promoters and legalizers of torture and war crimes here at home will only empower the moderates while marginalizing the extremists. over there and here.

[Soylent Brice]

21. *standing ovation*

:applause:

[Sp00kD out]

24. i completely agree

My post was never intended to be apologetic for the reluctancy of this administration to prosecute OBVIOUS international crimes.

[Uncle Joe]

25. I believe banning the release of those photos

hinder the possibility of enough political will accumulating here at home to bring about those prosecutions.

Dick Cheney combined with his corporate media propaganda minions are doing their best to fuzz up the picture as to what is OBVIOUS.

I certainly don't believe they will quit should the photos be released but their lies and conning of the American People regarding this issue will have less impact.

P.S. Welcome to D.U.:hi:

[Soylent Brice]

26. cool. that's good news to hear.

i don't think Uncle Joe implied you were against prosecutions, rather, i believe the scenario was presented to show how things could and are potentially progressing though.

without the photos where is the real evidence? what can we possibly use to prosecute the * cabal? more than enough memos have been release that should be able to be used to prosecute at least Bybee, but yet... crickets.

the photos would be the last nail in the coffin of the prior administration, and a warning to anyone in the future who would think to repeat those atrocities in the name of the U.S.A.

in other words, no matter how painful, no matter the repercussions, no matter how earth-shattering the following events would be, it's imperative those photos be released for the sake of true justice.

[Sp00kD out]

27. a disconnect

Who would be doing the prosecution? If the US government, they already have the evidence. If the UN, do you think this administration would disregard a subpeona for the photos? In either case, evidence would not be released to the public.

[Soylent Brice]

29. that's why the photos should be released to the public.

put the fate of our country in the hands of its citizens. if people in this country have a conscience they'll demand prosecutions. if they don't then we'll know we're truly fucked either way. at least we'd know where we're going as a nation.

[Strong Atheist]

20. Welcome to DU!

:toast: