I have a question about the American flag...

[Joe Fields]

What prompted my question was a lady, who I saw at my favorite restaurant this morning. She wore an American flag shirt, and I wondered to my wife where it stopped being patriotic and began being blasphemous. Is an American flag bra or briefs acceptable for men and women? How about an American flag thong for women? What about American flag toilet paper? What could be more patriotic? American flag handkerchiefs? Would blowing a nose full of snot into an American flag handkerchief show off your patriotism?

Here's one for you...

I saw a pick up truck with both the American flag and Confederate flag decals on it. BTW, I live in Kansas City, MO., not Montgomery, Ala.

Any thoughts?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. It's a very interesting topic,

and the Supreme Court has an interesting history with the flag.

Here's what you want to read to answer all your questions: http://www.amazon.com/Flag-Burning-Free-Speech-Johnson/dp/0700610545/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246389145&sr=1-1

[Joe Fields]

3. Thanks for the insifht and the link. Yes, as I ate my biscuits and gravy

this morning, my wife and I pondered the question. Just table talk, you know.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

4. If you're old enough to remember

all the protests during the Vietnam war, one of the biggest was flag-burning and then hippies who made shirts and capes out of the flag.

The Supreme Court took care of it very nicely. Saw it all as 'free speech,' but the history is much more complex - and a whole lot of fun to read about (at least for me) - so I hope you'll get it and enjoy it.............................

[Joe Fields]

12. Oh, I remember... I even had bellbottoms that were red, white and blue,

striped with stars, back around 1970, but it ended there. Just shirts and pants, The question of bras, panties, thongs, handkerchiefs, etc... is something that really didn't crop up in the Vietnam era.

[csziggy]

2. Legally, I think just about anything is allowed.

I feel like there should be limits, but that is not something I want to see legislated or policed.

For instance, I made a snarky comment on another thread about Palin "leaning on the flag" but that is more a comment on the symbology rather than a complaint about the way the flag is casually and in my opinion disrepectfully thrown over a chair back and then used as an armrest. If an American politician is so willing to treat the flag that way, I suspect many will be upset and let them know, but I don't think we need a law about it.

[texastoast]

5. There is a lack of grace (not to mention etiquette)

Lots of my "patriotic" puke neighbors just let their flags fade. They never take them down at sunset like they are supposed to if they are not lighted. I just don't like it when the flag is disrespected like that.

A flag on a underclothing would be the ultimate disrespect.

[Sal Minella]

10. G. Gordon Liddy (Reagan Administration) and flag etiquette:

[texastoast]

14. I just have to wash my eyes now

After that image. :P

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

6. I believe David Cross said it best:

"If you don’t have a flag sticking out of your ass, the terrorists win. Have flag pills to eat, then you shit out a flag. So order today! All flags made by Chinese prison labor, guaranteed!"

[MADem]

7. There is a thing called flag etiquette. It doesn't have the full force of law, though.

Mainly because of that whole "protest" thing.

You're not supposed to wear a flag as clothing. Representations of flags on paper plates, napkins, cups, etc., are not appropriate.

ONE FLAG is enough for any gathering--using a dozen or twenty as "bunting" is wrong. If you want bunting, use bunting.

That said, "bunting" clothing, plates, cups, etc., are just fine--a plate with a few stripes and stars on it--no problem. Red white and blue rosette bunting? Go for it. It just should not look like "a flag, or a part of a flag."

Link: http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

Check out the link to the "Wall of Shame," it's interesting....

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. Wall of Shame is interesting, but I have two objections to their objections:

The tissues are not representative of the flag - yes, there are stars and stripes, but the proportions are not representative of the flag. The stars are way too big, and there are too many stripes. The design was obviously made to NOT duplicate the flag, but to merely represent the flag theme, which is allowed as in bunting.

The Texas Legislature showed a representation of the flags which had flown over Texas, in order, from left to right, culminating with the modern US flag. I don't believe this historical recounting has anything to do with the flag code.

[MADem]

17. They're stretching with the tissues, certainly, and they object to

the TX example on the basis that it is a representation of a flag, and

"No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America." (Flag Code, Section 7c)

[Bucky]

19. Right, when they get upset about the flag with the stars in the upper right corner, they forget this

<== The stars in upper right corner. Is allowing this view a form of disrespect?

[MADem]

22. That's not the same. That is a photo, first, and a three dimensional sculpture, OTOH.

Go to the OTHER side of the sculpture, and there you have it.

Photos and sculptures are not forms of "flag display." The code pretty much spells out what to do. It's fairly simple and fairly direct.

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. As a culture, we read left to right. How do you display the progression

of Texas statehood, starting from Mexican possession, through independence, statehood, the Confederacy, and statehood again without putting the Mexican flag to the left of the US flag? Whoa. That's to the left, not to the right. Or do they mean 'stage right', as if it was the flag looking at us, rather than us looking at the flag? And in any case, the US flag is larger, thus, representatively 'above' the other flags.

And it is a representation, it is not a display of flags, in any case.

[MADem]

21. Put the US flag on top, that'll solve the problem--we also read top to bottom! nt

[Alcibiades]

9. The folks who display bothe the Confederate battle flag

and the stars & stripes are entirely ignorant of history, unless they are civil war reenactors, I suppose. Makes no sense whatsoever, but one does see it every now and again.

[dem mba]

13. the stars and bars represent southern pride to some people

and not necessarily the desire to secede from the Union or white nationalism or whatever.

The problem is that everyone else in the known universe equates the Confederate flag with those things...

[scheming daemons]

23. It's the flag of a nation we defeated in war..... it should not be flown ever

by an American citizen.

[Alcibiades]

24. Yes, but folks who think that are flat out wrong

That is to say, those who equate the battle flag with anything other than secession. Why is it that folks think it means secession, or at least pride in the struggle for secession?



Because historically that's exactly what it meant. After the war, it was used as a symbol of the lost cause. It is the flag of Jeff Davis and Nathan Bedford Forrest. If folks want to fly it, that's fine, but they cannot also then claim to be loyal to the United States of America or unsympathetic to the cause of white supremacy, because that's a profoundly ahistorical misrepresentation of the facts, known to all at the time and forgotten by folks who have never bothered to read the original texts documenting the controversy leading up to and following secession.

[immoderate]

11. There is a US flag code...

But, AFAIK, there is no penalty proscribed for breaking it. Here are some provisions that are frequently broken:

http://www.legion.org/national/americanflag/flagcode

• The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
  
  
• The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkin or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
  
  
• No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
  
  
• The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat. When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender.

To me, it's a piece of cloth. I don't worry much about desecrating the flag because you can only desecrate that which is holy. In America no object should be considered holy as we are a secular nation. The flag is a relic of chivalry, an anachronism. The Constitution, OTOH, is a culmination of human genius. :)

Here's Abby Hoffman, wearing a flag. He was not allowed to wear it on TV.


But Roy Rogers and baton twirling sex symbol of the fifties Mary Hartline wore flag costumes on TV frequently ( couldn't find any pictures.)

--imm

[kctim]

15. I also live in KC

and see lots of vehicles with Teamsters and Confederate flag decals.

[Bucky]

16. There once was a reverence for the flag, but those standards have changed

Cultures change over time. People used to get upset about hippies decaling Old Glory to their back jeans pockets. Today flag-themed bikinis aren't even looked at twice. Okay, that's not a good example. The flag as hankie certainly crosses that line.

But the rebel flag plus the national flag is an old one down here in Texas. It's only a contradiction if you think the stars'n'bars can ONLY mean disloyalty to the nation. That's about as narrow minded as people who used to say "Black Power" was inherently anti-White. It's an expression of identity--one I don't happen to think is appropriate, given what all the flag really did stand for--and the person who wears that symbol, as per the First Amendment, gets to say what they mean it to be. It's far too ubiquitous to necessarily mean hatred, although in the right(wing) circumstances it certainly can be a form of hate speech.

Context is important. I'd reckon that the context of the double-flag decal, someone is simply they love freedom and love their regional culture, too, and don't see the two being in conflict. In that respect it's no different than a shamrock neon sign over an Irish bar or a big red dot in a Japanese restaurant's logo. They're saying we're here, we're full of beer, get used to it.

[madmom]

18. My hubby used to work at a foundry and it got quite hot. He said there was one guy there who

always wore flag hankies for head bands and blew his nose on them also. (Not the same ones he wore as headband)He told me this because he is absolutely sure this guy was a repug. This was during the Clinton years.