My neighbor and I agreed to build homes on my other neighbors property....

[Postman]

without his consent or input....seems fair, right?

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1098716.html

Report: U.S. okays Israel construction of 2,500 settlement homes

Israel had won agreement from the United States for the continued construction of 2,500 housing units in settlements in the West Bank, despite U.S. calls for a freeze, according to the Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said the United States and Israel have been trying to find common ground on the sensitive settlement issue,

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Another question would be why the US has to give permission

[asteroid2003QQ47]

18. I'll, with your permission, co-ask THAT crucial question! n/t

[Mariana]

24. Because Israel wants to keep the foreign aid checks coming.

Surely no one believes that all that money doesn't come with strings attached.

[wroberts189]

39. and the attack helcopters with tow missiles. nt

[ChadwickHenryWard]

36. Because they are our client.

Without our support, they would quickly be blown to oblivion by the large number of hostile states surrounding them. We sell them huge amounts of weapons, as well as send them quite a bit of aid money. There was an incident in 2005 wherein Israel was negotiating with China to buy long-range guided missiles. The Bush administration made it known that that year's aid package would suffer as a result, and the deal was promptly abandoned. In exchange for this Israel does our bidding in the region. They act as a counterbalance to the Arab states which pretty steadily oppose our efforts in those parts.

[cali]

3. This will be moved and locked- which you're aware of.

Had you posted it in a less inflammatory way, it would have had a chance of staying and actually informing people. You chose not to do so.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. What's inflammatory about it?

It's a great analogy, IMO.

[cali]

5. it's rather a facile and sophomoric analogy but that's not the point

the point is that if you want posts about I/P to have a life on GD, you need to post things in a way that doesn't invite a flamefest- and this clearly doesn't hew to that guideline- as witnessed by the first response.

[Fumesucker]

10. I don't see a flamefest..

I see a bunch of people agreeing with the OP and one person calling it "antisemitic", a rather facile and sophomoric as well as asinine claim.

[chimpymustgo]

17. It's a pretty good analogy. There is no civilized way to accept what Israel is doing to the

Palestinians. And throwing all the threads about the injustice into a basement forum won't make it "all better".

This is a crime.

[madrchsod]

6. your "report" is not correct

[druidity33]

15. how so? nt.

:shrug:

[habitual]

7. K+R n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

8. I Agree with you...

The continued illegal annexation of land that does not belong to Israel is appalling.

[Boojatta]

28. Did you expect refugees who found homes in Israel to bring land with them?

I'm curious about the treatment of Jews in Poland after World War II ended. Was it also "illegal"? Was it also "appalling"? Where were Jews who left Poland supposed to go?

Same question for Egypt, the USSR, etc.

[mudplanet]

32. Well, maybe they should have stolen your home

[Boojatta]

34. Maybe they should have fought to stay where they were, instead of going to Israel.

They could have followed the example of Mennonites. Mennonites knew that North American land belonged to the indigenous people of North America. So Mennonites learned the art of war, fought many battles, and earned the right to stay in Europe.

[mudplanet]

42. I don't know that that's a realistic or humane expectation

I'm unfamiliar with Mennonite history, but I don't think the Mennonites have a history of systematic pogroms against them, not to mention the extermination camps. Also, Mennonites probably aren't subject to racism.


Given what happened in WWII it's arguably understandable that the European Jews wanted to create the State of Israel. But that doesn't excuse stealing other's homes and land, shooting children from tanks, etc., and acting like racists themselves. Their current course can only lead to rivers of blood.

[Raineyb]

50. Oh, well I suppose since they really need it it's not really stealing then

:sarcasm:

Your attitude is disgusting. This is yet another illegal land grab and there can't be any peace while Israel insists on stealing from the Palestinians.

Funny, how that works out even without official empires the imperialist mindset of not regarding the people who live in a place so they can more easily steal from them continues on.

Your attitude is really quite disgusting.

[crikkett]

53. well, my polish family went to chicago and to some extent

lived happily ever after on land stolen from Indians.

[and-justice-for-all]

54. Dumb...

"Did you expect refugees who found homes in Israel to bring land with them?" Really?

This would not be the case if Israel did not bulldoze homes on land that they think they have some divine right to.

[ThomCat]

9. Yup. You boiled it down to the simple issue.

Israel and the US have no legal right to come to any agreement that allows Israel to steal Palestinian land. :(

[varelse]

11. Disappointing, but sadly not surprising

Still, maybe there is hope for a new direction:

Netanyahu, under U.S. pressure, has pledged not to build new settlements in the West Bank or expropriate more land. Further discussions are planned between Mitchell and Netanyahu as early as next week.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. What's your point?

This happens in my neighborhood all the time.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. What's your point?

This happens in my neighborhood all the time.

On edit: Anyone else caught in an echo chamber?

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. The settlers are insane, and the settlements are theft

It's not that complicated.

[SoCalDem]

16. But an invisible entity says it's okay

a la:

There once was a man with two sons..we'll call them Harry & Larry.

The boys had a tumultuous relationship with their Dad, but each loved him . They tolerated each other growing up, as they vied for dad's love and affection.

In quiet times together, Dad told each one how he loved them best, but not to tell their brother. He told them it would be better if this was their secret.

Larry left to seek his fortune, but in the back of his mind, he always knew that someday, when Dad was gone, everything Dad had, would be his..Dad promised

Harry stayed behind, and made his life where he had always been. His life was modest, but satisfying, and he knew that when Dad was gone, he would be the one to continue tending to Dad's land, and raise his family to do the same.

Years passed, and so did Dad. Harry & Larry led their own lives in their own ways, each sure that they were living decent and proper lives. Larry was secure in the knowledge that his homeland was there waiting for him, if he ever felt the need to return. He had a tie to his homeland, but had made his life in another place. Knowing it was there, made him happy.

He gave little thought to Harry, except that he was tending the same fields their Dad had tended, and that his life was very different.

Events transpired that forced Larry and his family from their home, and after years of struggle to stay alive, they finally made their way back to Dad's place.. He had promised it to Larry all those years ago, and he intended to stake his claim. Just so there would be no trouble, he had made sure that government officials had backed up his claim, and he would be legally within his rights to claim what was his.

Needless to say, Harry was not all that pleased when he found out that Larry and his family were planning to move in, and when they did, HE and his family would be forced out. Dad promised that place to HIM, and HE was the one who had never left..the one who had tended those fields since he was a small boy.

He felt terrible about the bad things that had happened to his brother, but HE had no part in making those things happen, and wondered why he and his family had to depart from land that was promised them by his dad..land that he had always lived on.

It was too late for legal help on his side..papers had been signed, lines drawn on maps..drawn by people he never met, or even knew existed.

Because of the terrible things that had happened to larry & his family, Larry armed himself and prepared to defend his re-claimed homeland. He feared that someone would try to take this from him, like his other home had been taken. He vowed that this would never happen again.

Meanwhile, Harry was desperate to try and regain the only home he and his family had ever known. His large family had been pushed into a very small enclave with none of the amenities he had before... they had limited food, water or services, and the ones they did have, had to traverse the land that had been taken from them. their existence was dependent on the largess from the very brother who had pushed them away.

The authorities who helped Larry take over Dad's place, felt guilty for not helping Larry when he begged for help in his former home, so they made sure he and his family had adequate "protection". Harry and his family had no such protection, and were viewed as pests whenever they complained. They turned to local people, like themselves, who had also been pushed out by others from Larry's former home. They had none of the big weaponry, but they knew they had to resist, no matter what..and to try to reclaim what was taken from them.

The logical thing would have been to just share, but during the estrangement the cultural & religious experiences of the brothers had irrevocably changed them, and their extended families did not even know each other. The only thing the two brothers had left in common was the knowledge that Dad had promised EACH of them the same land, as their birthright. there was no way to share, so the only thing left to do was to fight over it..forever, no matter how many family members died in the process.

[bertman]

21. Pretty good analogy, SoCalDem, except I don't think the "original" Larry left home to

seek his fortune. Wasn't he expelled by imperial powers? Or have I been misinformed all these years?

[SoCalDem]

25. As a person raised Catholic, I plead a certain amount of ignorance about the bible.

but, I was always told, growing up, that Jews and Arabs shared that same area for a very long time, and since many (most?) Jewish people actually lived outside the area in modern times, and lived all over the world, that many migrations had occured.

We were always told that once Moses led a whole bunch of them away from Egypt, they settled in the "promised land" for quite some time before spreading out across the world.

Our nuns & priests were more into telling us what we could and could not do.

It's also pretty evident by just looking at the people involved to see that the oned who "stayed" local, still look pretty much alike, while the ones who "returned" in 1947 were very european-looking, since they had lived "away" for a very long time.

[truedelphi]

27. In the back of my mind is another analogy, somewhat similar to the one

You made up.

It is about the White people and the Native Americans.

I wonder about those Americans who say they have no problem with the idea that the Palestinians need to give up their homeland for the sake of the Jewish people as The Big Black Book decrees that God had given them the land.

What if the Native Americans had a Big Black Book? And one day, they show up on the doorsteps of all the people in this country and say, "Sorry about this. Know you have bought your house and been paying the mortgage for the last two hundred years, but you'll have to move out. The Great Spirit says so RIGHT HERE!"

How do you win an argument if your main point of the argument regards the existence of statements made up by a made up person? Whom some people believe in but others don't?

[DUlover2909]

40. I wish my European ancestors would have stayed in Europe.

I would rather be living there. I would prefer not having a history of slavery. I would prefer no colonialism and no genocide of indigenous people. Too bad it happened. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[truedelphi]

46. Can I join you?

"Two wrongs do not make a right." That was one of my dad's favorite all time sayings.

[Raineyb]

51. You ever notice how that phrase is generally used by those who have managed to escape justice?

We discriminate in this country but when people try to do something to fix that and those who have always been privileged don't like the program we hear "two wrongs don't make a right." Oddly enough when the phrase is used by anti-death penalty advocates those who argue for the death penalty aren't interested in hearing it.

The same people who would tell the Native Americans that they can't have their land back are often the same ones who have no qualms about Israel stealing land from the Palestinians because they "need" it as though the Palestinian who had been living there were just using it frivolously or something.

Very interesting indeed.

[debunkthelies]

45. Who wrote the Book?

That's my question, who wrote the Big Black Book that says they are the 'Chosen People' and have the right to take what the Father promised?
Didn't they write the Book that says they are the 'Chosen' and the rest of us are not and therefore have no right to stand in the way of their manifest destiny?
Just wondering:shrug:
I believe the Old Testament was written by the Hebrews for the Hebrews.:think:

[truedelphi]

47. Well in terms of Israel, it seems to ahve worked out some what better for them

Than for the other side. I mean, Gaza was rather bloody several months back.

And Lebanon a few years ago. And then Gaza.

And then Lebanon.

[earth mom]

19. K & R nt

[Umbral]

20. Let me guess, this is some sort of 'Manifest Destiny' thing? nt

[Kickin_Donkey]

22. It's called Lebensraum.

[scarletwoman]

31. Indeed. That is the precise term for it. (nt)

[Enthusiast]

48. Yup

It should be stopped and NOW.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

37. I remember in high school history

when we were talking about Nazi Germany, I compared the concept of "lebensraum" to that "Manifest Destiny" thing we learned about earlier in the year. I got some steely looks, but the teacher agreed.

[Nothing Without Hope]

23. I'm glad - and surprised - to see this thread sill visible.

Some of the usual trolls must be on vacation.

[Divine Discontent]

29. nah

ID is just watching MJ coverage! ha

[Chemisse]

26. Analogies really help put things into perspective.

What is going on over there is just so wrong and unfair and oppressive it's hard for me see the other side at all.

[Motown_Johnny]

30. First you need to go into his house with guns and lock him in the basement. Then you can build

all you want

[wroberts189]

41. Or just bomb the hell out of them and then put up an aid blockade. NT

[scarletwoman]

33. "Not room for both Just room for me"

Come out come out
No use in hiding
Come now come now
Can you not see?
There's no place here
What were you expecting
Not room for both
Just room for me
So you will lay your arms down
Yes I will call this home
Away away
You have been banished
Your land is gone
And given me
And here I will spread my wings
Yes I will call this home
What's this you say
You feel a right to remain
Then stay and I will bury you
What's that you say
Your father's spirit still lives in this place
I will silence you
Here's the hitch
Your horse is leaving
Don't miss your boat
It's leaving now
And as you go I will spread my wings
Yes I will call this home
I have no time to justify to you
Fool you're blind, move aside for me
All I can say to you my new neighbor
Is you must move on or I will bury you
Now as I rest my feet by this fire
Those hands once warmed here
I have retired them
I can breathe my own air
I can sleep more soundly
Upon these poor souls
I'll build heaven and call it home
'Cause you're all dead now
I live with my justice
I live with my greedy need
I live with no mercy
I live with my frenzied feeding
I live with my hatred
I live with my jealousy
I live with the notion
That I don't need anyone but me
Don't drink the water
Don't drink the water
There's blood in the water
Don't drink the water

[2Design]

35. trespassing???? n/t

[slipslidingaway]

38. knr...happy to see that this thread was allowed to remain in GD. nt

[elleng]

43. Anyone read link?

'The United States denied Wednesday that it has reached a compromise that would allow Israel to complete the construction of 2,500 housing units in West Bank settlements.

The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv had reported earlier in the day that said Israel could finish the 700 buildings.

But U.S. State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said the report was "inaccurate" and that Washington stood by its position that all settlement activity must end.'

[Celtic Merlin]

44. Well, that's a bit of good news.

The USA must hold a very hard line on West Bank settlements. That land should be given to the people who are currently inmates in the Gaza Prison Camp.

Israel must begin respecting its own borders if they want others to respect them as well.

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[Grinchie]

49. Anyone have a copy of the 1971 National lampoon magazine featuring OC and Stiggs?

There is a timeless article on Israel. titled "We are still immediately leaving". Nothing has changed, and people wonder why the Palestinians are pissed.

[yellowwood]

52. This is a United States Issue

This issue should stay on "General Discussion" instead of being relegated to I/P because it is about United States authority. Americans own it. As long as the United States "agrees" with such encroachment on the West Bank, people in that region will never trust us (and should not).
An as for Gaza, if we "agreed" to that, it's a shame.