"Anti-Catholicism is the anti-Semitism of intellectuals" -Peter Viereck

[hedgehog]

I am from the far left wing of the Catholic Church, if that is the proper term. I find myself increasingly in contempt of the clerics who have made an idol of the priesthood and the Pope. Still, I am flabbergasted at the contempt that springs to life here on DU whenever the Catholic Church is mentioned. I'm not defending the pedophile priests or the bishops who sheltered them. I'm talking about the mockery of Catholic beliefs that is practically word for word lifted from anti-papist tracts of the 19th century.

Catholics believe that Jesus is God and that He is present in the Eucharist.I don't try to explain it any further than that. I maintain if it could be put into words, it wouldn't be necessary to have the Eucharist.

Yes, the Catholic Church as an organization is guilty of the worst crimes. Just this summer, the Ryan report documented of what Catholics did to each other in Ireland during the 20th century. Ironically, the only people who would tend to claim the Church is perfect tend to be the same people guilty of the worst crimes in the name of the Church.

Still, is it necessary to mock people's beliefs at every opportunity? I can't count the number of times I've seen such phrases as God Cracker. While I agree it seem silly to see Jesus's face in pancakes or tree stumps, I come from a community that in many ways follows the precept of "whatever floats your boat". If someone finds comfort in a water stain, who am I to deny that comfort?

So, go ahead and condemn the Pope for forbidding the use of condoms. Most Catholics heartedly agree with you. Tell us all about how mean Sister Nails of the Cross was to you back in 1953. I am with you all the way in telling the bishops to butt out on the same sex marriage issue. But please, step back from attacking people's beliefs except as they interfere with your life. Unless someone is forcing you into a church to be baptized and take communion, back off.

[MNDemNY]

1. I will back off when all churches pay taxes, same as other businesses.

Religion is a lie, and should not be subsidized by the public.

[hedgehog]

3. It might solve a lot of problems. Put the churches on the same footing

as the Rotary Club and YMCA.

Still, what does discussion of tax status have to do with denigrating beliefs in a vile manner? (not that you have done so, but others have.)

[anonymous171]

36. Nonprofits should have to pay taxes too. nt

[zbdent]

40. that would screw up a LOT of "charities" that Repukes hide in ...

[Clintonista2]

171. And it would screw up a LOT of legitimate organizations that are trying to help people

So what's your point?

[Bill McBlueState]

2. a lot of people are just anti-irrational

People like that are going to confront irrational beliefs, regardless of which religion supports them.

[hedgehog]

6. Is it possible to do that in a respectful manner? Also, are you as

rabid about the Dalai Lama's belief that he is the latest reincarnation of a long line of tulkus?

[Bill McBlueState]

9. Am I as rabid as what? n/t

[hedgehog]

12. The references to the Eucharist as a cracker have become

a cliche here. I have never seen similar mockery of Tibetan Buddhism, for example, which suggests the mockery is more motivated by anti-Catholicism than it is by pro-rationality.

[scheming daemons]

14. Do Tibetan Buddhists have a similar pseudo-cannibalistic ritual?

If so... I'll mock it.

[hedgehog]

87. Referring to communion as pseudo-cannibalism is exactly the kind of

mockery that seems reserved exclusively for the Catholic Church. It is a deliberate misunderstanding of a core belief.

[Sal Minella]

108. How is this a misunderstanding?

Aren't Catholics required to believe that they are taking the body of Christ into their mouths when they kneel for communion?

Where am I wrong on this? I had several weeks of instruction from a priest, and this was one of the pieces of dogma I could not get past.

"Transubstantiation" is the word, I believe? The changing of substance?

Whereas Luther believed in "co-substantiation," that the bread and body of Christ existed together in the wafer?

Where am I in error?

[Arugula Latte]

112. No -- What about Mormons' magic undies?

Sorry -- Silliness is silliness. And the Catholic Church is the one that says it turns into a human body! What is that if not cannibalism?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. when was the tibetan buddhist all upset with the PM of england? soon as that happens

the mocking will start.

[spoony]

79. Um, are you refering to Harper?

He's the PM of Canada. Not England. Also, England does not have its own PM. It's the UK.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

80. yes, i am but you see how since it was in the news and there was outcry that he didnt eat the wafer

correctly, that people who are not part of this religion, may not think a PM of any country is obligated to eat a wafer correctly.

i am sure if hindus complained that clinton didnt eat prasadam correctly, people would mock the idea that god comes to eat the prasadam at night etc

[hedgehog]

90. My understanding is that people remove their shoes before entering a mosque,

and that men cover their heads when entering a synagogue. One can choose whether or not to enter a mosque, synagogue, church or temple. Once one enters though, it is only common courtesy to follow the customs of the worshipers. If I may be excused for saying so, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."

There are two issues at hand: PM Harper's behavior and the fact that some here have taken discussion of his behavior as an excuse to mock Catholic beliefs.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

126. not its not, its much more akin to the prasadam, the PM dressed appropriately for church

your hypersensitivity that the rest of us have to buy in to this wafer transformation is the real problem

[Burma Jones]

58. There are a lot more Roman Catholics than Tibetan Buddhists

With a lot more sway in the world.

That's probably why.

[Deep13]

144. It IS a cracker! It's baked and pressed flour!

That's a cracker. I am not required to believe your fantasy about it turning into part of a dead guy. What Catholics believe about that has no bearing on reality. It's just not true!

And you might see more anti-Buddhism when Buddhist bishops start telling people how to vote and how to conduct their private lives. There is no real Buddhist institution in this country. You know this, of course, so your argument is dishonest.

[DireStrike]

149. You might have picked a more popular religion to compare it to

But I guess after Catholicism and non-catholic christianity, there is a huge drop off in the reference value of a religion...

Interesting though that the litany of weird beliefs held by orthodox jews and muslims are never remarked on.

[Deep13]

167. Never?

First of all, criticisms of Christianity are often implicit criticisms of Judaism since the former lifted Yahweh from the latter. Second, it is not either of them that has a headlock on American politics. Finally, I've been pretty critical of Islam.

[LeftyMom]

162. Then you aren't looking.

I know I've personally participated in several threads that were extremely critical of Tibetan Buddhism, and I'm sure there were others I missed.

[Maru Kitteh]

166. I'm such a rube.... I couldn't figure out how being a "cracker" had anything to do with it.

I was hearing/seeing something like "look at that crazy cracker."

I getcha now. The private, individual spiritual beliefs of any person ought be respected by any liberal.

[scheming daemons]

13. The Dalai Lama, while a great guy, is equally full of shit

Just has different superstitions than the Catholic church.

[jobendorfer]

43. well, to be fair --

I've heard the Dalai Lama say -- in a public forum, I might add --
that where Buddhist teachings and the findings of science contradict,
the teachings should be amended to agree with the scientific findings.

Beyond that, the only thing the Dalai Lama's tried to sell to me is the notion that
Tibet ought to be self-directing. Don't have a problem with that, personally.

J.

[Deep13]

135. That's true.

AFAIK, he's the only major religious leader to concede that scientific proof trumps faith.

[Deep13]

133. I agree. Except I don't think he is such a great guy.

I think he peddles his greeting-card sound-bites as philosophy to part gullible people from their money. He's been doing that ever since his CIA funding dried up. While I would not blame a foreign leader for taking CIA funds to help fight off a Chinese invasion, it does seem to be at odds with his pacifism and worldly rejection. Well, that and his desire to be to reestablish a feudal theocracy with himself as absolute ruler.

[Sal Minella]

27. The Dalai Lama isn't working overtime trying to change my country's laws

so my daughter can't get a legal abortion if she needs one.

The day the Dalai Lama starts trying to change women's reproductive rights, that's the day I will start being disrespectful to him also.

Respect has to run two ways in order to work.

[hedgehog]

92. Again, it is more than valid for people to criticize the Church when it

interferes in secular affairs. I do that myself. What I am talking about is the casual mockery of religious beliefs.

[defendandprotect]

89. I think all organized patriarchal religion deserves the same questioning and

challenge --

Meanwhile, REINCARNATION was once taught by all the world's religions . . .

until it became inconvenient for the elite.

[Deep13]

140. I fully respect religious people to the degree they are respectable, and most are.

It is your ideas I have no respect for, because they don't deserve it. And D.L.'s claim that he is the reincarnation of whatever and, therefore, born to rule is absolutely laughable.

I resent your use of the word "rabid." Being passionate about the truth is not a disease. I believe the evidence makes my view of this subject right. I think it is pretty dishonest for someone with admittedly no real evidence to call me diseased for pressing my own view.

[bananas]

51. Atheists are irrational and have delusional beliefs

Atheists are irrational: 21% of atheists and 55% of agnostics believe in god
Atheists are delusional: 27% of atheists& agnostics think God guided evolution; 13% say God made us as we are

edit to add: people who are anti-irrational are going to confront irrational beliefs, including atheism.

[armyowalgreens]

127. The belief that a god exists or has existed is irrational...

I don't care if Richard Dawkins himself comes out in support of a God existence. It's still irrational.

Anyone who believes that a god exists is not agnostic or atheist. They are, however, incredibly dumb.

[struggle4progress]

75. Everyone has irrational beliefs. Some people choose theirs carefully

[Zynx]

84. Irrationality is hardly confined to religion.

[Bill McBlueState]

161. exactly.

That's why opposition to irrationality can't be writted off as opposition to religion.

[YOY]

4. You know...I've pointed out that some of what the Church does and says is technically "left wing".

And they they are neither evil nor good. Usually

Being the jaded agnostic Catholic that I am I still can't hate them as a whole. I just know too many decent kind and caring Catholics who walk it like they talk it. The same religion that brought us Torquemada, the Crusades, and the persecution of Copernicus brought us Francis of Assisi, the Sistine Chapel, and affordable (getting to be not so much these days) high-quality private education.

Now the RW dipshits who want to repeal Vatican II? They can just fucking convert to Southern Baptist or Evangelical Snake Handling or some other Rapture Ready death cult perversion of the teachings of kindness and acceptance and fuck off.

That's how I felt when I still believed and I still hope for it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. when your church decides to be nice to me and my people, i'll be nice to your church.

however, i dont care what religious superstition one wants to believe in. all religions have a core of silliness. catholicism is no exception

[hedgehog]

7. Again, A lot of Catholics agree with you and are fighting to wrest control

of the Church from the clerics. Disagreeing with Church teachings on sexuality and Church interference with secular law is a very good thing, IMO. Outright mockery of basic beliefs is another.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. one thing leads to the other. stay off our laws and our sexuality, we will not find

as much reason to demean you.


(probably why the dalai lama and his rebirth doesnt get as much ire)

[hedgehog]

16. There is that. I've yet to see anyone mock the Episcopalean

belief in Eucharist.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. did the Episcopalians just raise a huge hue and cry about this?

if so, they will be mocked too.

you cant criticize a prime minister for not following your traditions, without expecting some backlash.

[Deep13]

71. Speaking as a former Episcopalian...

...I can tell you that the church does not insist people believe the host of the eucharist actually becomes the body of JC. It was seen as symbolic by most believers. Of course one may ask, symbolic of what exactly? Cannibalism? Still, it is not as dishonest as saying the eucharist encompasses two miracles: 1. the substitution of the cracker for the actual body of JC (I wonder if there is much of him left) and 2. the miracle of it still looking and tasting like a cracker.

I never heard anything homophobic from the pulpit. I never heard anything about abortion or anything misogynistic or racist either. Some of the members expressed some of those ideas, but it never came from the leadership. In the 1990s, Sweetie and I went to the Episcopal Cathedral in Cleveland once when we were downtown anyway. By chance, the sermon was on homophobia and how immoral it is to discriminate against gay people. The priest said Easter was about breaking barriers, including traditional prejudices. Not sure how that speech squares with the holy book he was relying on, but it was very positive.

I'd probably still attend that church if it was not for the fact that I don't believe in god. That is kind of a deal-breaker for most churches.

[theHandpuppet]

22. Thank you

When any church's "core beliefs" include the propagation of misogyny and homophobia that have led to the persecution of millions, I have little sympathy for anyone who believes they are being picked on for choosing to align themselves with said church. Just cry me a river. :nopity:

[Deep13]

63. Why don't you just find a church that agrees with you...

...instead of supporting one that would burn folks like me and Pri at the stake if it could?

Anyway, it is only because your side lost the argument in the 1700s that you are allowed to disagree with the Church without ending up on the end of a rope.

[trotsky]

24. Great response. n/t

:thumbsup:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I Don't Like The Catholic Church's Stance On Homosexuality

But they are light years ahead of other churches when it comes to understanding human sexuality. The Church teaches that homosexuality is part of one's nature as is heterosexuality and that homosexuals should be accorded respect. They also believe homosexuals are called to lives of celibacy. But progress is being made.


For the record I'm an unhyphenated Christian and look at all text including the text on human sexuality in context.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. i think the churches stance is immoral and causing a lot of death and unhappiness. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. I'm Not A Catholic And I See Leviticus And Paul's Writing In Context

I am not going to defend the Catholic Church's position on human sexuality.

I'm just pointing out their teachings are more benign than the teachings of many other churches.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. and all churches/mosques/temples whatever get criticized justifiably

so pretending catholicism is the only one that gets criticized is BS

they may get criticized more or less depending to what degree the vatican has decided to intervene in sovereign nations

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I Was Merely Discussing The Church's Views On Human Sexuality Not Defending The OP

Other than to say I feel bad if she feels bad that her faith is under attack.

But when it comes to social justice issues the Catholic Church is very progressive. Pope Paul was a key player in the Solidarity movement in Poland and wrote quite critically of unfettered capitalism. I know the current Pope has just written about the obligations of the developed world to the underdeveloped world and how we need to be better shepherds of the land...

The Church as a whole opposes capital punishment and most wars including the one in Iraq...


As an aside I feel funny about being a defender of the Catholic faith...


PEACE
DSB

[Deep13]

64. Sure, but I'm not going to use Fred Phelps or the Mullahs as the benchmark for ethics. nt

[trotsky]

35. "light years ahead...when it comes to understanding human sexuality"

Yes, like the institution that forbids ANY kind of birth control and puts celibate individuals in the position of giving advice to married couples is any farther ahead of where they were 2000 years ago. Hell, I take that back - they WERE farther ahead just 150 years ago when they allowed abortion up until "quickening." They've regressed.

[spoony]

66. How about just being nice to its members who are on your side.

Like on DU.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. i am hardly not nice to her based on her religion. however she wants me to endorse her religion

and i dont have to and shall not. if i find something i think is irrational, i shall state it.

you seem to think i follow around catholics being mean to them based on their religious choices

[Toasterlad]

130. How Is Saying, "I Think Your Religion Is As Intellectually Valid As Scientology" Not Being Nice?

If you mistake someone attacking your crazy beliefs as a personal attack on you, YOU'RE the one with the problem, not someone else.

[H2O Man]

8. I've spent time

in the Catholic Church. Mainly as a child, when I had no say. At that time, I rejected it, largely because I found the people in charge to be -- to borrow John Lennon's line -- "thick and ordinary."

As a teen and young man, I came into contact with some of the left-wing from the church. People who worked on jail reform, and some who were influential voices of sanity during the anti-war protests (including a couple of brothers who were forced to go "underground").

Many decades later, I still have relatives and close friends who are Catholic. In terms of religion, they do their thing, and I do mine. But in terms of working towards social justice, we work as one.

[scheming daemons]

10. I'm not anti-Catholic.... I'm anti-ALL-organized religion. I guess that makes me a Uber-Intellectual

I like it.

[SidDithers]

17. Why should religious beliefs be immune from mocking?...

Political beliefs certainly aren't. Neither are economic beliefs.

What makes religious beliefs so special?

Sid

[Feron]

67. I agree.

[defendandprotect]

93. There used to be a law in Italy which barred citizens from laughing at a priest on the street --

however . . . I think we need to laugh at religion way more than we're doing now!

[paulsby]

105. lots of countries , like france for example, criminalize mocking of religion

the laws refer to (for example) "vilifying" religion.

check the bardot case.

is it hate speech? arguably, yes. doesn't matter in the US because we have a 1st amendment that protects hate speech. many other countries criminalize it. and of course the laws, like most speech codes, are subject to being used extremely arbitrarily.

heck, france makes it illegal to criticize a police officer. seriously.

[defendandprotect]

132. I'm sure there are places where criticism of "pro-life" murderers is considered hate speech . ..

Criticism of the RCC which has spewed 2,000 years of "hate" speech against their enemies
is simply rebuttal to their "hate" speech verus women, Jews, homosexuals, Africans, Native Americans.

In fact, even after holding Jews in their ghettoes for 1,100 years -- barring them from
education, professions, careers and even contact with the rest of society and forcing them
to wear YELLOW STARS -- when the Jews were finally released due to action by government . . .
the RCC proceeded to spew another 100 years of vile propaganda against Jews.

In fact, it wasn't so long ago that you could still hear the expression "prefidious Jews"
from RCC pulpits.

We have ever right to question and challenge religion and I think DU'er probaly need to see
some of the RCC's villifying hate speech vs women, Jews, Homosexuals . . .
Actually, I think you point to the need for DU'ers to experience the vileness
and brutal nature of RCC "hate" speech -- and maybe soon, I will post some of it.

Meanwhile, see the "Hammer of Witches"/Burning Times --

James Carroll on the Vatican Crusades --

and re hate speech vs homosexuals, I think the RCC is still preaching intolerance for
homosexuals from their pulpits, if I'm not mistaken.
Certain Prop 8 was "hate" speech.

The Bible is one of the primary examples of "hate" speech --

The evidence against the RCC Church . . . is voluminous --

PLUS certainly the torturous Crusades qualify as "hate" speech --

and then there's the RCC connection to having spread anti-Jewish fervor throughout
Europe -- and because of that they have been called upon to sign a "Confession of Guilt
and Co-Responsibility for the Jewish Holocaust in Germany.

[paulsby]

136. i agree. that's what makes us (the US) better in this regard

we DO have the right to unfettered criticism, even if it's "hateful" w/o worry about running afoul of the govt. that makes us unique. US does not have hate speech laws.

[armyowalgreens]

104. Those who are afraid of criticism often have the weakest beliefs...

Yes I am saying that religious beliefs are weak. If they weren't, being criticized would not bother the OP or my parents or my sister or anybody else who is religious.

[MADem]

19. I've never heard the phrase "God Cracker." And I don't think people "mock people's beliefs" so much

as they take justifiable umbrage at the molestation of children WITHOUT consequences, that has been going on for decades.

They look at fat men in dresses, living large in Rome, and ask "Where's the justice for the children? Where's the justice for the adults who were once innocent children, and just 'can't get over it' and move beyond such a profound betrayal of trust?"

This strawman about "mocking" beliefs is a way of deflecting from the real issue--that bad men (and they were mostly men who perpetrated these crimes) walked off scott-free from committing horrible crimes against children, and they were aided and abettted by fat men in authority, in rich red and purple silks who live in the lap of luxury, courtesy of the donations of "the faithful" who were the unknowing supporters of men who were criminals.

That's the issue--not all that other stuff. Don't use that condom if you don't want to--but I can't help but notice that the average Catholic family is much, much smaller than they were four or six decades ago. I don't think that people are fucking less, or that infertility is selectively inflicted on Catholics alone....so some Catholics are clearly playing the "cafeteria" game, and, if not availing themselves of that condom, they're certainly preventing conception in SOME fashion. They're in effect "mocking those beliefs" while they continue to associate themselves with the organization.

Whether that's down to tradition/culture or belief, I'm not the one to say. I do find it interesting, though.

[burning rain]

20. Real friendship means real respect.

It means profound interest in your friends and what they think. I'm an atheist and the vast majority of my friends are believers. If they invite me to go to a religious service with them, or say they fear for me ending up in hell, I'm grateful for the expression of their love for me, while considering them misguided. I believe in keeping it friendly, but when I see something I consider ridiculous, like the Christian belief that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, I'm going to say so.

[awnobles]

21. When they stop

Telling me I was born indebted with my very soul I might stop mocking them. When they renounce the union of religion and government. When they sell the Vatican and give the money to Charity. When they admit the dogma associated with their interpretation of the Bible is self-serving and illogical. Probably not though because mocking is the best tool for pointing out idiocy.

[Mrs. Overall]

23. As an ex-nun, I discovered that there are two (and perhaps three) huge divisions

in the Catholic Church.

My order was liberal and progressive and we didn't care a shit as to what Rome said. We functioned autonomously (as do most active US women's religious orders)and our focus was social justice--helping others. We worked in soup kitchens, in prisons, gave sanctuary in our convents to immigrant families who were in danger of deportation, worked with the dying, elderly, children, prostitutes, homeless. When mass was offered in our chapels, we distributed communion to everyone, Catholic or not, in good standing with the Catholic Church or not. I learned so much from these amazing, selfless women, who went about their good work not caring one iota what the hierarchy in Rome said or even what the local bishop might say.

Although I no longer consider myself Catholic, I absolutely respect the liberal wing of the Church. However I do despise, criticize, and mock the Church as a patriarchal institution and I despise, criticize, and mock the current extremist right wing movement in the Church that is working to reverse much of Vatican II. And I do not like or respect Benedict nor his backward vision.

I may no longer believe that Jesus is present in the host (and I respect your right to believe it), but I am completely with you, hedgehog, in terms of the active good that the left wing of the Church continues to do on a societal level.

[chaplainM]

57. In response, here's a quote from Sam Harris

"Everything of value that people get from religion can be had more honestly, without presuming anything on insufficient evidence. The rest is self-deception, set to music."


You can practice charity, without believing in a big sky-daddy and a talking snake.

[bananas]

109. Sam Harris is a woo-woo

Sam Harris's Faith in Eastern Spirituality and Muslim Torture

By John Gorenfeld, AlterNet. Posted January 5, 2007.

The best-selling author of "The End of Faith" may argue against Christianity, but he is also supportive of phenomena such as reincarnation and ESP, and calls for "compassionately killing" the "Muslim hordes."

<snip>

[texasleo]

25. It's odd that the far left coddles Islam.

[Mrs. Overall]

29. What does that mean?

[Sal Minella]

60. It means texasleo doesn't like Moslems much. At all.

[Mrs. Overall]

65. I know. I just wanted leo to type it out in black and white, but he won't, darn it.

[Iggo]

77. Or the "far left", it seems.

[trotsky]

45. That's a bullshit right-wing meme.

Why repeat it here?

[frylock]

48. plenty of right-wing assholes on this board..

it's a big tent, after all.

[trotsky]

54. Yeah, far too many.

:mad:

[frylock]

47. care to elaborate?

or is that something you just pulled from out your ass?

[Mrs. Overall]

55. It's not replying. Typical hit and run.

[Mrs. Overall]

56. Just checked your post history and it seems you dislike "the left" don't you?

Here is a good comment from this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5935285#5935699

"If the kid were a white Christian, the responses here would be the exact opposite.
Gotta love the extreme left."

Methinks your days on DU are numbered.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. i dont want to bomb the vatican either. nt

[Karenina]

26. You may need to differentiate between

what people will post behind an "anonymous" internet handle and how they would behave IRL. If you hold a belief that rings true in your own being, no amount of mockery can shake it. I ask most respectfully, why the term "G_d Cracker" ;-) should cost you any energy. Our faith is our own.

The Catholic Church as an institution has richly earned the contempt you see heaved upon it. Those uncountable Catholics who have, throughout history, truly walked the walk are another category of being. The mystical concepts are entirely another matter.

No one's mockery has the power to shake mine as I keep them private.

[Sal Minella]

41. I am fond of people who keep their religious beliefs to themselves.

I don't want to look down anybody's throat or up anybody's bum or into anybody's religion, and I appreciate their cooperation in treating me the same way.

[Karenina]

62. Naaaa, Du!!! Sehr lang nicht gesehen!

Good to see you! :toast:

[trotsky]

30. Then leave the church.

There's one thing and one thing only that will force the church to change on anything less than a glacial timeline - a mass (pardon the pun) departure of all those Catholics who disagree with it. I for one am sick and tired of the GOOD Catholics who just give lip service like yourself. "I disagree with the pope too!" Or there's things like "But MY diocese is liberal!" Yeah and the point is, the church hierarchy desperately wants to crack down on both of those things. Leave the church, and take your time, money, and work with you. Go back when they've changed.

[hedgehog]

86. As it happens, that is exactly what has been under way since

the Birth Control Encyclical was issued. (more properly Humanae Vitae)

"Ten percent of Americans are former Catholics, a population that by itself could make up one of the largest religious denominations in the United States."

http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=10683


I believe this entire process is inadvertently being accelerated by US bishops who are busily closing and combining parishes in response to the shortage of celibate male priests. Unless the institution changes, the Church is in real trouble.

[trotsky]

99. So join them!

What are you waiting for?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain

The Catholic Church is an institution. And, being one, is open to attack for it's practices and policies.

[anonymous171]

33. The funny part here is that I am more liberal than most of my atheist friends.

Attaching Atheism to the progressive/leftist movement is a very dumb idea.

[Fumesucker]

68. Yep, there are just *soooo* many atheist Republicans..

You can't turn around without bumping into a Republican proclaiming his (or her) atheism.

[spoony]

72. Most call themselves libertarians.

Which is just to say that they're Republicans who want to legally bang hookers.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

114. Randroids are a minority of atheists. The vast majority are left of center. -nt

[DailyGrind51]

38. "Pope Benedict on Economic Justice" Washington Post

Pope Benedict on Economic Justice

THIS CATHOLIC'S VIEW

By Thomas J. Reese, S.J.

Pope Benedict's long awaited encyclical calls for a radical rethinking of economics so that it is guided not simply by profits but by "an ethics which is people-centered."

"Profit is useful if it serves as a means towards an end," he writes in Caritas in veritate (Charity in Truth), but "once profit becomes the exclusive goal, if it is produced by improper means and without the common good as its ultimate end, it risks destroying wealth and creating poverty."

He decries that "Corruption and illegality are unfortunately evident in the conduct of the economic and political class in rich countries...as well as in poor ones." He also says that "Financiers must rediscover the genuinely ethical foundation of their activity, so as not to abuse the sophisticated instruments which can serve to betray the interests of savers."

Benedict, like Paul VI, whose encyclical Populorum Progressio (Development of Peoples) he is commemorating, is concerned about the "The scandal of glaring inequalities." Both Benedict and Paul hoped that economic development would "produce real growth, of benefit to everyone and genuinely sustainable." Benedict disappointedly acknowledges that "The world's wealth is growing in absolute terms, but inequalities are on the increase" .

"The dignity of the individual and the demands of justice require," he affirms, "that economic choices do not cause disparities in wealth to increase in an excessive and morally unacceptable manner, and that we continue to prioritize the goal of access to steady employment for everyone."

In his encyclical, Benedict calls for charity guided by truth. "Charity demands justice: recognition and respect for the legitimate rights of individuals and peoples," he says. "Justice must be applied to every phase of economic activity, because this is always concerned with man and his needs," he writes. "Locating resources, financing, production, consumption and all the other phases in the economic cycle inevitably have moral implications. Thus every economic decision has a moral consequence."

The encyclical notes the globalization that has taken place since Paul's encyclical was issued over 40 years ago. Alas, "as society becomes ever more globalized, it makes us neighbors but does not make us brothers." True "development of peoples depends, above all, on a recognition that the human race is a single family working together in true communion, not simply a group of subjects who happen to live side by side." The goal of such development is "rescuing peoples, first and foremost, from hunger, deprivation, endemic diseases and illiteracy."

Sounding like a union organizer, Benedict argues that "Lowering the level of protection accorded to the rights of workers, or abandoning mechanisms of wealth redistribution in order to increase the country's international competitiveness, hinder the achievement of lasting development."

Rather the goal should be decent employment for everyone, which "means work that expresses the essential dignity of every man and woman in the context of their particular society: work that is freely chosen, effectively associating workers, both men and women, with the development of their community; work that enables the worker to be respected and free from any form of discrimination; work that makes it possible for families to meet their needs and provide schooling for their children, without the children themselves being forced into labor; work that permits the workers to organize themselves freely, and to make their voices heard; work that leaves enough room for rediscovering one's roots at a personal, familial and spiritual level; work that guarantees those who have retired a decent standard of living."

The pope disagrees with those who believe that the economy should be free of government regulation. "The conviction that the economy must be autonomous, that it must be shielded from 'influences' of a moral character, has led man to abuse the economic process in a thoroughly destructive way," he writes. "In the long term, these convictions have led to economic, social and political systems that trample upon personal and social freedom, and are therefore unable to deliver the justice that they promise."

Benedict even supports "a political, juridical and economic order which can increase and give direction to international cooperation for the development of all peoples in solidarity. To manage the global economy; to revive economies hit by the crisis; to avoid any deterioration of the present crisis and the greater imbalances that would result; to bring about integral and timely disarmament, food security and peace; to guarantee the protection of the environment and to regulate migration: for all this, there is urgent need of a true world political authority, as my predecessor Blessed John XXIII indicated some years ago."

While Benedict acknowledges the role of the market, he emphasizes that "the social doctrine of the Church has unceasingly highlighted the importance of distributive justice and social justice for the market economy." He unflinchingly supports the "redistribution of wealth" when he talks about the role of government. "Grave imbalances are produced," he writes, "when economic action, conceived merely as an engine for wealth creation, is detached from political action, conceived as a means for pursuing justice through redistribution."

Although Benedict's emphasis in the encyclical is on the theological foundations of Catholic social teaching, amid the dense prose there are indications, as shown above, that he is to the left of almost every politician in America. What politician would casually refer to "redistribution of wealth" or talk of international governing bodies to regulate the economy? Who would call for increasing the percentage of GDP devoted to foreign aid? Who would call for the adoption of "new life-styles 'in which the quest for truth, beauty, goodness and communion with others for the sake of common growth are the factors which determine consumer choices, savings and investments'"?

Benedict believes that if people understood God's love for every single human person and his divine plan for us, then believers would recognize their duty "to unite their efforts with those of all men and women of good will, with the followers of other religions and with non-believers, so that this world of ours may effectively correspond to the divine plan: living as a family under the Creator's watchful eye."

Thomas J. Reese, S.J., is Senior Fellow at Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University.

By Thomas J. Reese | July 7, 2009; 1:14 AM ET
| Category: Georgetown/On Faith , This Catholic's View

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2009/07/pope_benedict_on_economic_justice.html?hpid=talkbox1

[anonymous171]

39. But he said "God" so he is wrong. nt

[trotsky]

44. You realize, of course, how disingenuous that is.

Lots of us have plenty of room in our minds to hold two ideas at once and to simultaneously applaud the church for its occasional progressive announcement while condemning it for the nasty shit it's responsible for. (Having nothing to do with the mention of "god" at all.)

[comrade snarky]

165. Concerned about Glaring Inequalities?

Benedict, like Paul VI, whose encyclical Populorum Progressio (Development of Peoples) he is commemorating, is concerned about the "The scandal of glaring inequalities. ....... He unflinchingly supports the "redistribution of wealth" "

I might take that more seriously coming from someone who doesn't crap in a gold toilet.

As Stephen Colbert said "You'll always be cardinal Ratzinger to me".

[Arugula Latte]

46. I find "I demand that people respect my faith!" posts kind of strange.

As Mark Twain said, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

I respect facts, not made up stories. Just because something is labeled "faith" doesn't make it deserving of respect. In fact, I'd argue the opposite -- something not based on rationality isn't deserving of respect. I don't think people should be prevented from expressing their views -- so in that sense I guess I "respect" faith, but that's as far as I go.

I just hate how we're brainwashed in this country into thinking believing in baseless myths is a virtue. That goes for any "faith" -- not just Catholicism.

[spoony]

74. It's only strange because few other groups of people

have to beg DUers to show them common courtesy and not call them names.

[DailyGrind51]

88. Thank you!

Intolerance also applies to "creed" even in public law.

TITLE 42--THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE

CHAPTER 105--COMMUNITY SERVICES PROGRAMS

SUBCHAPTER II--HEAD START PROGRAMS

Sec. 9849. Nondiscrimination provisions


(a) Discrimination based on race, creed, color, etc., as basis for
denial of financial assistance

The Secretary shall not provide financial assistance for any
program, project, or activity under this subchapter unless the grant or
contract with respect thereto specifically provides that no person with
responsibilities in the operation thereof will discriminate with respect
to any such program, project, or activity because of race, creed, color,
national origin, sex, political affiliation, or beliefs.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/cor/byagency/hhs9849.php

[defendandprotect]

96. Did the Catholic Church show "courtesy" to women . . . even now . . .or homosexuals?

And, I kinda remember a rather hectic period of discourtesy re Jews . . . ??

Even now, the Vatican still refuses to acknowledge the full personhood of females

as it acknowledges the full personhood of males . . .

and it is teaching those beliefs to a new generation of member's children every year!!

Is that "courtesy" . . . ???

Was Prop 8 "courtesy" . . . ?

Was the campaign run by the RCC and the Mormon Church against the Equal Rights

Amendment -- with tax-exempt dollars -- "courteous" . . . ??

How about "pro-life" murder . . . is that "courtesous" . . . ?

Crimes cannot be responded to with courtesy.

[Arugula Latte]

111. Beliefs aren't inherently deserving of respect. I don't respect rightwingers' beliefs, for example.

Religion is on the same spectrum as politics, IMO. Religion is not deserving of special treatment.

Why should people have to pretend that something patently absurd is NOT ridiculous? The person posting has a right to profess a belief, but the person responding has a right to respond that the belief is stupid, silly, unfounded, not based on facts, etc., etc., whether that belief is political, religious, philosophical, what have you.

[spoony]

113. I'm talking about the people, PEOPLE deserve respect

and to not be called names. You can criticise a belief without being a nasty person.

[Arugula Latte]

115. So you're fine if I say that believing a cracker turns into Jesus is a ridiculous belief

and that is just one of millions of stupid, irrational beliefs that are swallowed whole by people due to "Faiths" of all stripes.

I guess these beliefs just exist in a vacuum without people attached to them? ... Okay, whatever ...

[Toasterlad]

129. Kind of Like How Homosexuals Have to Beg the Church to Stop Persecuting Them?

[defendandprotect]

137. Like Prop 8 wasn't "hate" speech . . .!!!! !!!!

[Tsar_Bomba]

49. Why should I trust religion to

leave me alone when history shows that religion does not?

[Arugula Latte]

50. Welcome to DU, Tsar!

:hi: :toast:

Good post :thumbsup:

[Deep13]

52. Anti-Catholic (religion) =/= anti-Catholic (person)

To use your example, being against Judaism is not the same as hating Jews.

I'm all for letting people think or believe what they want, especially if that right is reciprocated to me. But it isn't. Religion is supported by tax exempt income and property, by aggressive indocrination of children and by an undeserved deference. Whatever your personal beliefs, the fact remains that if you support the R.C. Church with your dollars, you are supporting anti-abortion campaigns, opposition to birth control in overpopulated and disease-ridden places, opposition to certain medical research, misogyny, homophobia and a twisted world view based on guilt, sexual repression and self-loathing. What you believe affects what you do and what you do matters. You may as well say that you are the left wing of the Klan and don't agree with what they do, but you still pay your dues. Sorry, but that disclaimed is not good enough. You have a right to be whatever religion you want. On the other hand, I have every right to point out the evil that your religion causes.

And by the way, the only reason you are free to disagree with your church is because that church has been weakened by political reforms based on the very criticism you complain about. If we did not have liberal democracies in the West, the RC Church (along with the rest of them) would still be burning heretics.

Anyway, 75% of the USA is Christian and the biggest single denomination is R. Catholic. So go cry on someone else's shoulder.

[defendandprotect]

139. Great post . . ..

:)

[Deep13]

150. Thanks. nt

[MichiganVote]

53. So you like people to be rational in the face of an irrational organization.

You may consider yourself to be far left in comparison to others in your church, but in my estimation you are just cut from the same cloth, even if it is the hem of the garment. Just because you feel entitled to judge the comments of others as an attack, that does not mean that others must agree with you. I lived that dogma and I ain't living through that sort of reasoning again.

The Catholic Church has shown itself to be false, and I don't mean back in the dark ages. It is a church that has miserably cut and hurt and wounded people for life. It lies and it deceives. If you can find comfort in that I think you may need counseling to set yourself straight. Lord knows the shrinks have done a good business with Catholics for decades.

[Burma Jones]

59. Does this mean Evangelicals worship the Cracker God?

The Presbyterians, the religion of my Childhood, use tastefully cubed bits of Wonder Bread and individually portioned servings of Grape Juice brought to our seats on trays of the finest silver while lovely music is played by a professional organist......

Whatever Floats yer boat......

[ContinentalOp]

70. But it's still OK to make fun of Scientologists and Mormons right?

Because your insane superstitious rituals are slightly older than Xenu or magic underpants, so they're obviously above mockery.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. no shit. i remember everyone getting on the mormon bandwagon during the prop8 mess

but mention that the catholic church invited the mormons to participate and all of a sudden you were an anticatholic bigot

[hedgehog]

95. It's not the fact of criticism that's the problem, it's the fact that

all too often criticism over a specific issue (Catholic bishops opposition to same sex marriage) quickly becomes an occasion for mocking every aspect of the Catholic faith.

[defendandprotect]

142. Well, I don't see people criticizing the Pope's

jewels, headwear and satin pumps . .

but I guess it could happen!!!

[Deep13]

76. *bing*bing*bing*bing* We have a winnah!!!!

:applause:

[spoony]

78. Where did the OP say that?

Or ever say that? And can you not post even a single thing about religion without being so belligerent?

[ContinentalOp]

81. The OP specifically mentioned criticism of Catholicism as being equivalent to anti-semitism.

i.e. anyone who thinks the Eucharist is goofy is a Nazi. I didn't see any blanket complaint against all mockery of personal beliefs (Xenu, ghosts, indigo children, chemtrails, 9/11 conspiracy theories, etc.) and clearly it is widely popular and acceptable to mock some of these personal beliefs on DU. It's only the O.P.'s personal beliefs that are of concern to her. If you dare criticize those you're a Nazi.

[spoony]

82. You're not getting that from the OP, though

Omission of other groups is not proof of disdain or apathy toward them. If you post on a thread about homophobia condemning it, would someone be justified in replying to you that you're obviously fine with racism because you didn't also mention and condemn that? Of course not, and similarly you ought not assume that the OP doesn't care about incivility aimed at others just because this thread is about Catholicism. I can't speak for the OP, but I've alerted on posts and threads that were hostile or insensitive toward Wiccans, Muslims and Jews as well as those being nasty toward Catholicism or Christianity.

[ContinentalOp]

85. Well, I'm coming from the other point of view.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to make fun of any crazy beliefs whether they're religious beliefs or bizarre right wing political beliefs. I don't understand why the Catholic church is above criticism. :shrug:

[hedgehog]

97. The point of the quotation is people who hold themselves above anti-Semitism,

who feel that anti-Semitism is wrong, have no qualms about expressing anti-Catholicism. Anti-semite is not synonymous with Nazi.

While the OP was triggered by the anti-Catholic vitriol in the Harper threads, you do make a good point that it is rude to mock other people's beliefs. As someone well known to DU has said, “we can disagree without being disagreeable”.

[ContinentalOp]

101. Anti-semitism is not synonymous with Nazi, but the only point of the quote in your OP...

is to make the inference that anyone who is dismissive of Catholic beliefs is essentially as bad as the Nazis. Why else mention anti-semitism? You can be opposed to ethnic bigotry and still have valid criticisms of Jewish religious practices (or maybe not, apparently you can't even criticize the political actions of the state of Israel without being labeled an anti-semite.)

And I certainly hope it didn't seem like I was making the point that it's rude to mock other people's beliefs. Or rather, it might be rude, but that doesn't mean it's always wrong or should be disallowed. I have no problem for example, with being rude toward people who hold repulsive right wing beliefs.

[Toasterlad]

134. Historically, The Jews Are a People As Well As a Religion.

Anti-Semites don't target religion. They target PEOPLE. Your comparison is faulty.

The Jewish faith is open to as much mockery as the Catholic faith. You know why you don't see it mocked as much here? Because the Jewish faith doesn't spend all its resources oppressing women and homosexuals, aiding and abetting pedophiles, and doing its level best to keep every person in a third world country ignorant and servile.

You claim to abhor those aspects of the Church with which you don't agree, but, as a Catholic, YOU DON'T GET TO MAKE THAT CHOICE. If you are truly a Catholic, you are beholden to the Church and ALL ITS TEACHINGS. You are REQUIRED TO OBEY. If you don't embrace ALL that the Church stands for - TODAY, the good and the bad - you're not a Catholic. You're just a nostalgic ex-altar boy with a thing for ancient, pointless ceremony.

From one ex-Catholic to another: it's time to let go. You'll have much more respect for yourself when you turn your back on this evil institution of voodoo and intolerance once and for all.

[defendandprotect]

145. In fact, the RCC coined the term "anti-Semitism" . . .

but it's dual attack on Jews is not unlike its attacks on Native Americans and
African enslaved here --

[hedgehog]

94. Did I say it was proper to make fun of Scientologists and Mormons?

I don't know any Scientologists, but I do know a good many Mormons. While I don't believe what they believe, I don't go about referring to magic underpants nor do I attempt to enter the parts of their temples off-limits to non-Mormons. I may criticize the Mormon Church for its interference in politics just as I criticize my own church, but that is different from mocking belief.

[ContinentalOp]

98. No but since those groups and others are mocked FAR more frequently on DU than Catholics...

I have to wonder why you singled out mockery of Catholics as being equivalent to Nazism. :shrug:

[jgraz]

124. Hell, I'll say it

Their beliefs are batshit crazy.

[Deep13]

131. Again, the insistance on undeserved respect for one category of belief.

If a belief or an opinion is ridiculous it ought to be mocked. The mere fact that the subject of the belief is a purported god does not change that. This insistence that religious belief deserves some kind of special deference is in itself a religious judgment. By insisting on it, you are judging me by the standards of YOUR religion. MY belief is that objective fact is what matters and not belief at all. Why do I have to suppress my beliefs to conform to yours?

[defendandprotect]

83. Sounds like you want criticism of the RCC and religion in general to be banned???

If you are from the "far left" of the church, then you know that Vatican II/Pope John
XXIII was about democratizing the RCC . . . ending its dictates . . . its fascist rule
over members lives and opening the church to the right to personal conscience and
free thought . . . EVEN IN RELIGIOUS ISSUES.

DICTATES/DOGMA will always be mocked when people are free to do so -- even when it comes
from a hierarchy as large and powerful as the Vatican!

Catholics believe that Jesus is God and that He is present in the Eucharist.I don't try to explain it any further than that. I maintain if it could be put into words, it wouldn't be necessary to have the Eucharist.

And . . . if you wish to bring those personal beliefs out into the public arena, then we
also have the right to tell you that Jesus was a mythical figure and that the idea that
you reduce your Christ to a wafer may offend our sensibilities/our spirituality!

Yes, the Catholic Church as an organization is guilty of the worst crimes. Just this summer, the Ryan report documented of what Catholics did to each other in Ireland during the 20th century. Ironically, the only people who would tend to claim the Church is perfect tend to be the same people guilty of the worst crimes in the name of the Church.

This is not about any entity being "perfect" and you, of course, know that --
It is about male-dominated hierarchies having gained power and control over nations --
infact, by introducing the cross with the sword. Not to mention the Crusades.
Not to mention the Vatican's sad history in spreading anti-Jewish/anti-Semitic hatred
throughout Europe.

Still, is it necessary to mock people's beliefs at every opportunity? I can't count the number of times I've seen such phrases as God Cracker. While I agree it seem silly to see Jesus's face in pancakes or tree stumps, I come from a community that in many ways follows the precept of "whatever floats your boat". If someone finds comfort in a water stain, who am I to deny that comfort?

Again, this is a public website. This is a public arena -- the Town Square, so to speak.
It's a place where all issues are discussed and none are taboo.
Again -- do you want to make criticism of your religion taboo?

So, go ahead and condemn the Pope for forbidding the use of condoms. Most Catholics heartedly agree with you. Tell us all about how mean Sister Nails of the Cross was to you back in 1953. I am with you all the way in telling the bishops to butt out on the same sex marriage issue. But please, step back from attacking people's beliefs except as they interfere with your life. Unless someone is forcing you into a church to be baptized and take communion, back off.

And, while obviously are are taking this personally, I have never seen a thread here which
attacked any individual Catholic. Have you? Excluding pedophiles, of course, and those
who have protected them . . . by name.

What we have had is criticism of the Vatican - of its male hierarchy, its wealth, its dictates,
its myths, its abuse of women and its anti-Jewish and anti-homosexual teachings . . .

Its role in promoting genocide of the Native American and enslavement of the African in America.

It's "Manifest Destiny" and its "Man's Dominion Over Nature" which give license to exploitation
of the planet/nature/natural resources/animal-life --

and which beliefs/teachings have been suicidal for humanity and our planet.

[hedgehog]

100. I have repeatedly in this thread and elsewhere criticized the

Catholic Church for its activities in the public sphere. I invite others to do so as well. Again, I think there is a difference between expressing disagreement or disgust with a particular action and a whole sale attack on every aspect of faith and every wrong thing ever done in the name of the Church. It's as if any discussion involving Japan devolved into retelling of the Bataan Death March, mention of the Japanese whaling fleet and some remark about how funny it is that many Japanese speakers confuse L and R sounds.

[defendandprotect]

151. People are piling on . . . is that what you're suggesting?

You want only one from Column A and one from Column B when a poster posts?

If you mention the Crusades, perhaps, then you can't mention the Papal Bulls re

Native Americans and Africans?

Or, if you mention oppression of women then you can't mention oppresion of Jews?

Posters aren't criticizing the church for the sake of something to do!

They are pointing to teachings which are wrong, behavior which is wrong -- and

past outrages for which the Vatican has never atoned.

In fact, last I heard the Pope zig-zagged around those problems and suggested that

it was the "people" of the church who should confess their sins.

You've not made clear why you are still supporting, financing and in admiration of

a church like this -- why don't you enlighten us?

[ProudDad]

91. Anti-Catholocism is the best response of one who was subjected to "Catholic indoctrination" (n/t)

[RagAss]

102. Pretzel Logic

[armyowalgreens]

103. Your religion has a long history of blood shed and intellectual slavery...

As do all other religions.

[hedgehog]

106. Blood shed, unfortunately yes. Intellectual slavery, not as much as

either right wing Church members or detractors would like us to believe. In any case, certainly either topic can be addressed without going out of the way to mock core beliefs.

For example; I can argue with anyone that the Vietnam War was a mistake, but I have stood in solemn silence here:


Likewise, why were we all so disgusted because Cheney wore a parka instead of a top coat:




Humans recognize some things as sacred. It is rude of anyone to mock what another holds sacred.

[armyowalgreens]

110. Sorry but nothing is sacred. And nothing is above criticism.

"Mockery" is an inflammatory word. Criticism and mockery is not the same thing.

[armyowalgreens]

116. Also, Catholicism has one of the most organized network of "schools"

on the planet.

School and religion should not mix. The fact that children can take theology classes right after a science or history class is kind of self-defeating.

And lets not forget the centuries of cruelty, from the catholic church, towards other religions or criticism. If one fears death from the church because they aren't toeing the line, they are an intellectual slave.

So yes, your religion has a long history of intellectual slavery. Much of that stems from the long history of blood shed.

[anonymous171]

122. Have you ever gone to a Catholic School?

Or even read about them?

[armyowalgreens]

123. I have a ton of friends that graduated from catholic school. One of my cousins graduated

from a catholic school.

Why?

[Toasterlad]

143. I Have. 12 Years.

I have never experienced more hypocrisy before or since than from the priests and nuns at Catholic school.

[DaveinJapan]

164. I have...

it's an extremely indoctrinating and oppressive experience, at least the one I went to was.

[SoCalDem]

107. I sure liked it better when people did not even KNOW the religion of their friends & neighbors

Quick.. no googling..


What church did Eisenhower go to..

Goldwater?
Roosevelt?
Lincoln?
Truman?


I have known people for decades, and never known what "faith" they were.. It's just not a deal-breaker/maker for me..

[RPM]

117. "Anti-Intellectualism is the anti-Semitism of Catholicism"

Perhaps it has something to do with the church's meddling in the endeavors of science over the years...

[pnwmom]

118. The Catholic Church isn't against intellectuals. And the Church turned away

from meddling in science long ago.

[RPM]

120. Stem Cells?

No - they still meddle.

[armyowalgreens]

125. The pope said that condoms are bad.

You don't consider that meddling in science?

[Sal Minella]

168. Not just that condoms are "bad," as in condoms = birth control.

The pope said that condoms are not effective in hindering the spread of AIDS, a blatant untruth. He forbade the use of condoms even by married couples when one spouse has AIDS.

The blood of many many more premature deaths is now on this pope's hands. And he should believe that the sin of lying to his faithful believers is on his soul.

I feel bad for those who still believe that the pope cannot err when speaking in church matters. These faithful are being served most miserably by this sorry excuse for a pope.

[Toasterlad]

147. Claiming Homosexulity Is a "Sin"?

Please find me the science in that position.

[hedgehog]

119. I rest my case.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6026304

[Arugula Latte]

128. So we're supposed to "respect" people who think the Virgin Mary appeared in a stump?

:wtf:

[Fuzz]

121. Throw whatever stones you want, then cry foul when your ox is gored.

[Toasterlad]

138. "Blessed Are You When They Revile and Persecute You...For My Sake"

I don't recall anything in the Beatitudes about whining over lack of respect.

It never fails to amuse me how religious people NEVER understand their own religion.

[spoony]

155. It never fails to amaze me

the lengths DUers go to to justify their nastiness, even claiming that you're doing us a favour. Lol. Interesting tactic.

[Toasterlad]

157. I'm Not Trying to Justify Anything. I'm Quite Content With My Dislike of Religion.

It's JESUS' words. If you've got an issue with it, take it up with him. He's the one who said "turn the other cheek".

[Sal Minella]

169. Shhhh. Most Christians don't like having Jesus's words quoted.

Understanding what He actually said might interfere with their Christianity, yanno?

Edit -- those lines about caring for the sick and providing food for the hungry -- the teabagger crowd really, really does NOT want to hear that stuff. You can quote the lines in the Bible where it says "God Wants You To Be Rich" ... oh, wait.

[NashVegas]

141. Truly Understanding The Positive Uses Of Religion Is Beyond the Scope of Most People

I don't believe for a single minute that the Church's intellectual leaders and poohbahs honestly believe there's a god present in the eucharist, but I'm sure they understand the symbolism in the cells of their being.

On the downside, truly understanding the scope of what their hypocrisy does to the lay people - especially children who were unable to reconcile what they're taught in Catechism with what some of the priests have been up to in the rectory, in any healthy way - seems beyond those leaders, as well.

[Toasterlad]

146. What Exactly Are You Saying?

It sounds a lot like you're saying that it's okay to spread faith in nonsensical beliefs as long as you can use that faith to steer gullible people into doing good.

Sounds a lot like the ends justifying the means, to me.

[NashVegas]

152. Sometimes

An irrational argument is the only thing that gets people off their asses, and the symbolism is a language of short-cuts communicating to people on your side. If you disagree, I can point you to all the Twittiots with their avatars still greened out.

[Toasterlad]

158. I'm Uncomfortable With USING People to Acheive ANY Objective.

You could argue that EVERY cause "uses" people to some degree, but I don't believe that having ignorant people doing the right thing for the wrong reason is an honorable method.

[Deep13]

148. What about conservative Protestants...

...who insist that Roman Catholicism is a perversion of "true" Christianity. They do not believe everyone's religious views are valid. In their minds, they are right, everyone else is wrong. If all religious beliefs are equally valid and deserving of respect, how do you square the conservative point of view with yours?

[Dappleganger]

153. To be fair

The Church teaches that protestantism is a perversion of true christianity, that they are heretics who have fallen away and need to be brought back to the 'one, true church.' Not that most RC's believe it themselves, but it is what the church teaches. It's like when the Roman Catholics and Orthodox excommunicated each other.

[LeftyMom]

154. A childhood of beautiful Saturday mornings spent in CCD says I get to mock Catholicism all I want.

The good news is that all of those Saturday mornings gave me YEARS of material.

[spoony]

156. Well, hedgehog, I dunno about you

but this thread has been thoroughly depressing for me. Even the most basic calls for civility have been thrown on the ground like a napkin at a Viking feast. They enjoy their venom too much to acknowledge any common ground with liberal believers. There is no hope in appealing to people here for courtesy.

[ContinentalOp]

160. Venom IS my religion.

Why can't you respect that? :shrug:

[Sal Minella]

170. And why exactly should YOU be granted religious tolerance when no one else is???

:P

[ContinentalOp]

174. That seems self evident. I'm ME.

Everyone else is not me. Duh.

:P

[Sal Minella]

175. Ah. Yes. Of course. Obviously. Whatever was I thinking.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

If only, if only ALL religious folk would exercise such patience with us non-believers as you have shown .....:)

[TexasObserver]

159. No, it isn't.

[saltpoint]

163. I disagree with the hinge about Catholics and Jews, just for starters.

One may be anti-authoritarian and thus find the Vatican insufferably authoritarian, even as one may admire Francis of Assissi for being so spiritually aligned with the poor and with animals and forest glens.

I think a great deal of the objection to the Catholic Church among progressives involves their relationship with authority as opposed to the specific Christian brand.

Most people around the world know the Pope is dead wrong on condoms. He ought to publicly apologize for an uninformed and dangerous position.

[invictus]

172. What other Christian denominations eat Eucharist "bread" in a ceremony?

Just curious. No offense intended by calling it "bread."

[hedgehog]

173. It is most often referred to as bread, especially in hymns.

As far as I know, most Christian Denominations engage in ceremonies recalling the Last Supper. Some groups celebrate Communion daily, others reserve it for special occasions such as Easter and Christmas. In the 19th century, Catholics were taught to reserve taking communion for very special occasions, and that they had to go to confession first to ensure they were worthy. This attitude lingered into the 20th century, but most American Catholics today take communion at every Mass. Part of the infighting in the Catholic Church today is between those who consider communion food for the journey and those who think it is to be considered an award for good behavior. Theologians will tie themselves in knots debating the exact meaning of the words and whether it symbolizes the Body of Christ or is the Body of Christ. IMO, getting tied up in knots like that kind of misses the entire point.

The source for the communion ceremony is here:

Luke chapter 22 verses 15-20

When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles.
15
He said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer,
16
for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God."
17
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, "Take this and share it among yourselves;
18
for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19
Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."
20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.



Regardless of what else you might believe about the communion ceremony - it is also a way of commemorating a good man about to die for what he believed. As such, it is shameful to see how often it is mocked here.


On edit - I recently attended a series of Saturday pray meetings with Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists and Evangelicals. We all shared communion which included cups of wine and cups of grape juice to accommodate those who won't partake of alcohol. People from different prayer traditions and different classes came together to pray and discuss how we could make life better for people in our community. That is also what communion is about, and what is so often mocked here on DU.

[Sal Minella]

176. Trying to "make life better for people in our community..."

"...is so often mocked here on DU." ... ???

You apparently click into a DU website much different from the one I click into. Alternate universes at work here, or something.

But if you want to feel persecuted as part of your religious practices, I am certainly not one to try to interfere with anybody's desire to feel persecuted.

I will, however, fight back whenever your church tries to force its "One True Faith" dogmas into my life.

[JackDragna]

177. You're being a tad hypocritical

The Catholic Church is a social institution, one that claims to do good for people on a spiritual and temporal level. As such, it is subject to the criticism of others. You don't get to both tell people about the good you're doing and avoid having people point your flaws. To whatever extent people look for excuses to jump into threads about the Church and post insulting comments, I'm not sure. However, if Catholics want to be taken seriously, they must accept criticism of even their most fundamental beliefs as valid, even from people who, as you put it, are not "interfered" with by the church.

[RagAss]

178. So what? Religions were formed based on negative reactions to the Catholic Church.