Is bashing Dennis Kucinich the new DLC talking point?

[rudy23]

I've known DU'ers for whom Dennis was not their cup of tea.

I just haven't seen any vicious attacks on him the way I've been seeing lately on here.

Is this part of the DLC's strategy for branding left-leaning Democrats as losers on the internets? It sure seems like it. Pretty orchestrated and unnatural, in my opinion.

Why would any Democrat HATE Dennis Kucinich enough to call him nasty names?

[Taverner]

1. The irony is DK usually isn't my cup of tea, but right now I'm behind him 100%

Single payer is worth fighting for

Some of his other initiatives I did not care for (department of peace for example)

But Single Payer is a must...

[Robb]

11. Same boat here. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. Great politics. Too much woo. n/t

[rudy23]

156. Too much for my tastes, too. Not enough to unload on the guy all of a sudden .

Curiously at the same time that Rahm Emanuel and the Blue Dog DLC Dems try to argue away 72% support, a 60 Dem Senate, and the biggest Democratic voter mandate for change in recent history--so they can sell us out to insurance companies.

I can handle that some don't love him. I think others recognize, too---that's not what this is.

[Ken Burch]

252. Too much "woo"?

Are you really that jealous that he got Elizabeth and you didn't?

[lumberjack_jeff]

289. Yes... but that's not what I mean by woo.

I saw him give a speech here during the early part of the primary campaign. The first 10 minutes was a long-winded speech about all humans sharing a cosmic consciousness and being children of the stars... or something.

I was really relieved when he shifted gears and started talking about stuff.

[Duer 157099]

333. JFC. But if he had started off with a prayer to the invisible giant daddy in the sky

that would have been completely non-wooish, right?

I hate our culture so much. Talking about "cosmic consciousness" is "weird" but invisible sky demons is perfectly normal, nay, required.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

[earcandle]

201. Oh yes! Read it here!

http://www.noodlebrain.com/110thCongressHR676.pdf

[Demeter]

242. Kucinich's Wife Would Make a GREAT First Lady, Like Michelle

and his politics are more real than just "Audacious Hype".

[progressoid]

298. Me three.

[BlooInBloo]

2. I love Moonbeam McCrazypants' ideals. I just wish (a) he wasn't batshit insane...

and (b) that he had some idea of exactly how those ideals are to be achieved.

I mean, I want peace, love, and goodwill to all as well. Doesn't mean I should be President.

[Raster]

8. So please, enlighten us all: how is Congressman Dennis Kucinich "batshit insane"?

And please, no bullshit, reich-wing hyperbole... just the facts. How is the Congressman insane? What evidence do you have to support that statement? Seriously, I would really like to know.

[1monster]

150. Well, isn't it obvious? He isn't on the take in bed with corporations and he fights for US.

Which is proof positive that he is batshit crazy insane. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Butch350]

159. How about the UFO thing?

[DUlover2909]

171. UFO's are REAL

That doesn't mean alien life or extra-terrestrials are REAL. How about the UFO thing? He saw something in the air he couldn't identify. That's all. Thanks for the repub talking point.

[wroberts189]

211. President Carter said he saw one too.nt

[eridani]

222. OK, then maybe Reagan and Carter both were batshit insane

--if that is the criterion you want to use. Carter sure isn't.

[fascisthunter]

259. repeat after me: Unidentified Flying Object

it's a term used by our own military when they cannot identify a flying object.

But you knew that...

[Bryn]

294. I saw one when I was very young

call me crazee if you want. I consider myself lucky. Just because you've never seen one doesn't mean others don't. I am totally deaf and have never heard a bird sing...should I say you are bat crazy for claiming that you can hear the birds sing just because I don't?

[JDPriestly]

304. What does UFO mean? Unidentified flying object.

We all see them all the time. They are unidentified because we don't know what they are. That does not mean that a scientist couldn't identify them. We use the term UFO for two things. Lots of English words have more than one meaning. A UFO can also be used to mean a flying object that no one can identify. To determine whether that is the case, the object and all the details about it would have to be reported.

I like the fact that Kucinich was ready to admit that he had seen something that he could not explain, that he could feel awe and wonder at something.

I am more concerned about those who claim to only see what their eyes can perceive. In fact, there is a whole universe of UFOs, planets, stars, an immense space filled with things that have not been identified by any human on this earth. I respect those who acknowledge their awe at the immensity of the universe beyond human understanding because, in fact, we humans are so tiny, so powerless in the vastness of the universe. There is so much we do not see or perceive. There is therefore so much out there that we cannot identify.

[rudy23]

12. This is what I'm talking about. Is Dennis Kucinich that far "left" of the average Democrat?

Enough to inspire this kind of hatred?

Dennis has been voted in time and time again by his constituents---what about him makes you think he's "batshit insane"?

I'll say it again---why are DU'ers calling one of our own "batshit insane"?

[BlooInBloo]

14. Because he thinks aliens talk to him. Next question?

[rudy23]

16. So did Ronald Reagan. His own party didn't torpedo conservatism and link it to him.

And you know that's not why.

[BlooInBloo]

19. Um, I'm not going to support someone for Pres. who's batshit crazy just because he's got a D...

Not when there's a bunch more D's who AREN'T batshit crazy who are available.

[rudy23]

29. My version of 'batshit crazy' is selling out to insurance companies when Democrats have the largest

mandate we've had in decades. I think that's way crazier. At least in Dennis' case, nobody died as a result of his belief.

And I agree, I won't vote for what I define as 'batshit crazy' for corporations, just because someone has a D behind their name.

[Enthusiast]

172. I'm with you, rudy23

Dennis is doing exactly what I want. Too bad there are so many other Democrats that are corporate sell outs, unlike Dennis.

[Dr.Phool]

224. I know Dennis and his wife personally. Neither are crazy.

I've voted for Dennis in every election, since his first City Council run. I can't vote for him any more, since I moved to Florida.

Dennis is one of a few Congressmen who stands up for working families. I'll support him forever.

No need to respond, because you're the first person I've put on ignore in six years on this board!

[Rainbowreflect]

314. I don't know him personally, but agree with everything you said.

Dennis is my hero. I don't believe being open minded and fighting for the little guy is a bad thing. But that's just me.

[tomp]

261. libel. nt

[tomp]

262. self delete. nt

[Bryn]

296. I suppose you would much rather for more D's

who are in bed with CEOs of Corporations, in for $$$$$$, many of them have sold us out. I am totally deaf, I've never heard a bird sing so I am calling you bat crazy for claiming that you hear birds sing. It's same as for some who have seen UFOs and the others who have not are calling them crazy. I am one of lucky ones to have seen one when I was very young.

[Hippo_Tron]

73. Reagan had dementia for much of his presidency, his party should've torpedoed him

And they probably would've if the media had bothered to report it.

[Raster]

24. Kucinich has *NEVER* claimed that he thinks aliens talk to him.

I've searched. I cannot find any link to that verifiable statement. Perhaps you have one?

[BlooInBloo]

27. ...

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/10/kucinich_had_a_ufo_encounter_according_to_friend_shirley_maclaine.php

""Dennis found his encounter extremely moving," MacLaine writes. "The smell of roses drew him out to my balcony where, when he looked up, he saw a gigantic triangular craft, silent, and observing him.

"It hovered, soundless, for 10 minutes or so, and sped away with a speed he couldn't comprehend. He said he felt a connection in his heart and heard directions in his mind." "

[Raster]

30. That is a Shirley McLaine quote. Not Kucinch. Please, try again.

We aren't discussing Shirley McClaine. We are discussing Congressman Dennis Kucinich and your claim that he "thinks aliens talk to him." He NEVER says any such thing.

[BlooInBloo]

31. hahaha! Sorry - I don't have videotape, signed by Moonbeam McCrazypants...

Any evidence I could possibly get would of necessity be somebody saying he said it.

BTW - It would be interesting if Moonbeam McCrazypants ever denied saying that.

[Raster]

35. You don't have shit, except pithy, pissy responses.

But it won't stop you from repeating it ad naseum, now will it?

[BlooInBloo]

36. Um, almost all we do here is repeat what other people say. Not sure why that's an issue.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

131. It is

when you launch ad hominem attacks and resort to juvenile name calling, I don't use this often, actually I don't think I ever have on DU but "you sound like a freeper".

[Enthusiast]

177. He probably is a freeper. nt

[kestrel91316]

213. He has seriously made me wonder that in recent weeks.

He earned an ignore from me with this thread's namecalling of Kooch.

[Raster]

229. You know something, NO. Don't put people like this on ignore. That's what they want.

Challenge their lame-ass statements. Make them back up the crap they're spewing. And in true cyber-bully fashion, when you stand up and refuse to tolerate their bullshit, they fold like an ugly fucking deck chair.
:kick:

[conscious evolution]

245. He is

[fascisthunter]

260. I've figured that for a long time now

[colorado_ufo]

290. Of course.

BlooinBloo: He/she is "bloo" (blue, sad, depressed) because he/she is in a "bloo" (blue) state.

[Forkboy]

301. Nah, just an idiot who thinks he clever.

[timtom]

244. It's only the rules on this board

that prevent me from calling you "a fucking idiot".

So, I'll keep you on ignore instead.

[tomp]

267. that's bull. you're projecting.

YOU are the one who has no original ideas.

AND, it depends who you are echoing. you are echoing opponents of progress.

[glitch]

44. Not that pithy. Unless you are trying to be fair to the lisp-readers. :) nt

[Raster]

45. pithy: brief and forceful

pithy, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[glitch]

57. And "having substance and point : tersely cogent"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pithy

[Raster]

58. well, you got me on the "substance" part!

:evilgrin:

[glitch]

59. I thought I'd get you on lisp-reader ;) nt

[Raster]

60. All right, you had me there too!

[Ignis]

70. Now that was funny.

:rofl:

[glitch]

87. Thank you Ignis! nt

[Ignis]

91. It'th my pleathure, really. (nt)

[glitch]

96. Keeping it fair, right on! :) nt

[arikara]

109. Ignore works better

than trying to reason with a ****-****. Let it spew to itself.

[GReedDiamond]

162. Personally, I'm pretty fucking disgusted with the FReeper-like...

...mentality of the Kucinich haters.

Makes me wonder why I bother coming here. If I wanted right-wing talking points bullshit, I'd listen to Rush or watch Fox News.

[Enthusiast]

178. Me too, GReedDiamond. nt

[bahrbearian]

38. Tell it to Neil Armstrong

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[provis99]

147. odd that a poster with a "Union, Yes" avatar would insult the most pro-union guy in the House

but consistency of ideals isn't your cup of tea, is it?

[Grinchie]

157. It's called the Wolf in sheeps clothing tactic.

Rap yourself in the flag, while you work feverishly towards it's collapse.

[kenfrequed]

270. Well...

The right has reason to fear someone like Kucinich. They have grown to like weak willed, spineless, accomodating, "moderate," and corporatist democrats.

They are easier to defeat if you have to run agaisnt them and it is easier to block them or ram legislation past them.

[Enthusiast]

175. Stop with the name calling!

Many of us think very highly of Dennis.

[troubledamerican]

179. I heard BlooInBloo is a COINTELPRO mole

I don't have any DIRECT evidence, but I think somebody else said it somewhere

[Individualist]

192. His posts are more typical of an eight year old child

whose parents don't believe in supervision or discipline.

[troubledamerican]

198. I heard BlooInBloo is actually a 12-year-old child, but since I heard it from you...

I'll consider it reliable hearsay evidence that Shirley MacLaine said BlooInBloo is an 8-year-old orphan.

[Ken Burch]

254. It might explain why he has trouble spelling the word "blue"

(...just sayin'...)

[kenfrequed]

I head that he has pictures of bigfoot.

Some random celebrity told me BooInbloo has seen bigfoot and had lunch with him. It must mean that no matter what anyone says about him, and no matter how rational his policies, that he must be cuckoo for banna-berry coco puffs.

[Ken Burch]

253. Are you EVER going to stop calling him "Moonbeam McCrazypants"?

There's no way the man's ever actually done anything to deserve such a spiteful, childish insult.

[HillbillyBob]

310. Then it is only hearsay, which is proof of nothing.

I too have seen things in the sky I cannot explain. I lived near a nuke ballistics build/ test area. Folks said I could not have seen anything goin that fast and I was crazy. Turned out I had seen..the stealth bomber and fighters being tested.
I would vote for DK for pres, because he at least really cares to try to represent the people. What he does on his time if not unlawful or uncouth (neither of which seem to apply to him) is his business.
I don't see him behaving hypocritically unlike a lot of others, or whoring out to corporations like others.
Funny he seems to be the only one actually working for the people and you all have to spout the rpig line..whose side are you on anyway?

[Individualist]

132. A woo woo is someone who uses Shirley McLaine as a source

[ControlledDemolition]

142. Are you saying it didn't happen? How do you know? n/t

[Grinchie]

155. So he has Spiritual connection. WTF are we, goddam machines?

Fucking Mechanist believe that man is nothing more that some independant machine, yet somehow, like minded people are able to come together and do great things. Others can have visions that help create Electrical Genroators and Motors. Others can visualize matter down to the atom, and predict it with uncanny precision thousands of years before instruments are even developed that are capable of verifiying it.

People thoughout history has been know the heal with a touch, or esperince premonitions of future events. We can manytimes think that same thing another is thinking independantly, and arrive at the same conclusion simultaneously.

How do you explain these facts? You just want to ignore the fact that we are all bundles of energy and electrical signals? You want to restrict are senses to only the physical realm of photons, touch and smell?

No BlooBloo, there is a huge world out there that man is too blind, and to stupified to comprehend. We have a whole society that is led to believe that they are powerless individual, and you fit that role perfectly. If your attacks weren't so childlike and distateful, maybe you would be tolerable here, but the reality is that you sound like nothing more than Rush Limbaugh or Sarah Palin, parrotting the "Palling around with terrorists" line..

Sqauwk!

[DUlover2909]

176. I don't believe that story for one second.

[NorthCarolina]

265. And "W" speaks to god, and god speaks back...and that's from the horses mouth

err, well maybe from the horses ass in this case would be more appropriate.

[kenfrequed]

268. So...

You are going to take the word of a Hollywood flake on this? I mean seriously. This is your sole piece of evidence? I think there is a har hitting journal you should probably research, it might give you a lot of material you can use in future posts and it draws on testimony and research that is of equivalent veracity.

It's called The National Enquirer.

[Enthusiast]

174. But the RW wants you to believe

he thinks that. Dennis is for single payer. That is enough reason to try to discredit him.

[JonLP24]

33. He has consistently stated by UFO, 'Unindentified flying object' which is the standard definition of

what a UFO is. I've seen the Phoenix lights myself when I was younger but never did I believe aliens talked to me. I seen what was considered at the time a UFO but never cared to pay attention if it was ever in fact identified.

[Ignis]

74. Sadly, you're wasting your time.

Someone's decided that DK's a "woo," and no evidence you present to the contrary will be considered.

So it goes.

[GreenArrow]

95. more likely

"someone" wants others to decide that DK is a "woo".

[Ignis]

104. You know the drill: Ridicule, marginalize, attack the man, etc.

We certainly can't talk about policy! :banghead:

[NikolaC]

158. Exactly

It seems that, without fail, every single time Dennis has tried to bring up real issues and ways to address them, he is demeaned. Aside from calling him crazy and a grandstander, his critics have yet to come up with any answers to the problems that this country is facing, which is what he is trying to do. So, the only choice we are told that we have with Dennis is to either ignore him or make fun of him. God forbid we listen to someone who is trying to do his job and hold some of these criminals accountable and call attention to the need for single payer health care...

[Enthusiast]

181. RW methods, all the way. nt

[rudy23]

115. And by association, a public option for healthcare. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

56. Aren't anonymous lies fun? nt

[Raster]

62. Yes and soooooo easy to repeat.

[nashville_brook]

114. uh -- actually, he doesn't think "aliens talk to him" -- that's right wing hyperbole

he said he saw something inexplicable. there's a big difference. what you said ("thinks aliens talk to him") is hyperbolized to impugn DK's mental health, and, is offensive b/c it operates as a smear on DK's progressivism. it's something Limbaugh would say, and it's disappointing to see DU'ers stoop to this level.

Jimmy Carter also reported seeing something he couldn't explain. So have quite a few military officers, as a quick google will reveal.


______________



Military UFO Quotes


"That it could be an aircraft constructed on this earth, I do not believe possible."
-Commander Juan Barrera, in command of Aquirre Cerda airbase, commenting on a UFO he allegedly witnessed.

"We were naturally anxious to get hold of one of the . We told pilots to do practically anything in reason, even if they had to grab one by the tail."
-Major Jeremiah Boggs, U.S. Air Force (Note: a recent visitor has complained that this quote misrepresents Boggs. Let it be known that Boggs was an “anti-UFO” guy.)

-Colonel Joseph J. Bryan III, Founder of the CIA's psychological warfare staff, special assistant to the secretary of the Air Force, advisor to NATO, and board member of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomenon (NICAP).

"These UFOs are interplanetary devices systematically observing the earth, either manned or under remote control, or both."
"Information on UFOs, including sighting reports, has been and is still being officially withheld."
-General Benjamin Chidlaw, Commanding General of Air Defense Command--See Unverified Quotes

-Colonel L. Gordon Cooper --See Astronaut Quotes.

"The UFOs are no figment of the immagination."
-Lieutenant-Colonel Lou Corbin, Army Intelligence

"I had the evidence that a crash did happen here....Give this information to the young people of the world and this country....They want it. Give it to them. Don't hide it and tell lies and make stories. They're not stupid....It's their information. It doesn't belong to the Army or the Department of Defence. If it's classified, take the classification off and give it to them!"
-The late Colonel Philip J. Corso, who made this impassioned plea not long before his death (Summer 1998). Colonel Corso was a member of President Eisenhower's National Security Council and later went on to become head of the U.S. Army Research and Development department's Foreign Technology Desk where he claimed to have worked with General Arthur Trudeau in "seeding" American military and industrial institutions with technology under his stuardship which came from a crashed alien craft in Roswell New Mexico.

"This was no ordinary UFO. Scores of people saw it. It was no illusion, no deception, no imagination."
-Air Marshall Azim Daudpota, Zimbabwe, commenting on a UFO witnessed in July of 1985 by many people and tracked on radar.

Seargent-Major Robert O. Dean, former NATO intelligence analyst for SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe)

"...They made...a recomendation to General Limnitzer, the American four star general that I worked for. And they suggested this is so sensitive ...'The conclusions that we have reached, we believe could be...substantially earthshaking to the people unless they're prepared for it. We believe at this point that this should be given the highest classification NATO has' at that time was and still is Cosmic Top Secret." --From a videotaped interview in which Dean discussed SHAPE's alleged report entitled "An Assessment" based on a 3-year investigation of UFOs being tracked on radar over central Europe.
"Wright Patterson Air Force Base... was the headquarters for the foreign technology division of the U.S. Air Force. It later became the headquarters for the alien technology division of the U.S. Air Force. Wright Patterson, for many many years was the central repository of not only the hardware, but some of the little bodies and even some of the living crew members who had been retrieved. But it became very clear after a time that there wasn't enough room at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. We litterally filled up hangar after hangar with hardware. We're storing it now in at least three different Air Force bases and much of it is being kept underground at a place not too far from Las Vegas just beyond Nellis Air Force Base which is repeatedly refered to as Dreamland, Groom Lake, or Site 51. That, today is one of the biggest repositories of hardware." --From the same interview.
"Of course UFOs are real--and they are interplanetary.....The cumulative evidence for the existence of UFOs is quite overwhelming and I accept the fact of their existence."
-Air Chief Marshall Lord Hugh Dowding, commanding officer of the Royal Air Force during WWII. Statement made in August of 1954.

" ship the material from Roswell directly to Wright Field by special plane."
-Colonel Thomas Jefferson Dubose, adjutant to Brig. General Roger Ramey at the time of the Roswell Incident, in a statement which contradicts the official story that the material was first flown to Fort Worth, Texas, where Ramey posed with Major Marcel and pieces of a weather balloon for the media.

-Lieutenant-Colonel George Edwards--See Scientist Quotes.

"Reliable reports indicate there are objects coming into our atmosphere at very high speeds and controlled by thinking intelligences."
-Rear Admiral Delmar Fahrney, U.S. Navy Missile Chief

"We got no conclusions, except after this, do not give us the old routine of Venus, weather balloons, aircraft and the like which has been given as a general panacea for almost every case of UFOs."
-Captain Jose Lemos Ferreira, with Sergeants Alberto Covas, Salvador Oliviera, and Manuel Marcilino, after an alleged encounter with a UFO on a flight out of Ota Air Base, Portugal.

"I am convinced there was thought behind the thing's maneuvers."
-Lieutenant George Gorman, North Dakota Air National Guard. In October, 1948 Gorman (flying an F51) chased a "ball of light some eight inches wide" for about thirty minutes, through a series of twists, turns and circles, nearly colliding with it on at least one occasion. The object was also witnessed from the control tower at the Fargo Airport through high-powered binoculars.

"UFOs are impossible to deny....It is very strange that we have never been able to find out the source for over two decades."
-Colonel Fuijo Hayashi, Commander of the Air Transport Wing of Japan's Air Self-Defense Force. This statement was made sometime in the 1960s.

-Admiral Roscoe M. Hillencoeter--See Government Quotes.

"We frequently see unidentified objects in the sky. We are quietly investigating them."
-Lieutenant-General Akira Hirano, Chief of Staff of Japan's Air Self-Defense Force, September, 1977.

"UFOs are real and they may come from outer space....photographs and various materials show scientifically that there are more advanced people piloting the saucers and motherships."
-General Kanshi Ishikawa, Chief of Air Staff of Japan's ASDF, in a statement in 1967.

"Air Force interceptors still pursue Unidentified Flying Objects as a matter of national security to this country and to determine technical aspects involved."
-Major General Joe W. Kelly, 1957

"Something is going on in the skies....that we do not understand. If all the airline pilots and Air Force pilots who have seen UFOs--and sometimes chased them--have been the victims of hallucinations, then an awful lot of pilots should be taken off and forbidden to fly."
-Captain Kervendal, of the French Gendarmerie

Major Donald E. Keyhoe, USMC

"The Air Force had put out a secret order for its pilots to capture UFOs."
"For the last six months we have been working with a congressional committee investigating official secrecy concerning proof that UFOs are real machines under intelligent control." --from a live national broadcast on CBS in 1958. Keyhoe had an approved script to follow, but when he deviated unexpectedly from it with this astonishing statement, the audio was cut-off in the middle of his sentence, "for reasons of national security."
" made and flown by intelligent beings."
-Major Shiro Kubuta, of Japan's Air Self-Defence Force (I think). Kubuta and his pilot, Lt. Colonel Toshio Nakamura, were scrambled in an F-4EJ to intercept what they were told was a Soviet Bomber. Once Airborne they were informed that their target was actually a UFO which had been sighted by ground and was being tracked on radar. When they closed upon the red, disk-like UFO, it began to maneuver around the plane, causing Nakamura to take evasive action. A dogfight of twists, turns and dives insued, which after several minutes resulted in a collision, which caused the jet to crash. Both men ejected. Tragically, Nakamura's parachute caught fire and he fell to his death.

"That movie Close Encounters of The Third Kind is more realistic than you believe."
-Steve Lewis, Former Air Force intelligence officer who spent many years investigating the UFO phenomenon for the US military. This statement was made after his retirement when he announced that he was convinced UFOs were intelligently controlled, extraterrestrial vehicles. He would give no further details of his work, but said that very little of the information in possession of the military had been released.

"The nations of the world will have to unite for the next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of Earth must some day make a common front against attack by people from other planets."
-General Douglas MacArthur, in a 1955 statement. MacArthur is thought by some to have been involved with General George Marshall in establishing the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit in 1947, supposedly formed to investigate UFO crashes, it is said to have been disbanded in the early 1950s.

"It appears to be a metallic object......tremendous in size....directly ahead and slightly above .... I am trying to close for a better look."
-Captain Thomas Mantell, USAF--Reporting to the tower at Goodman airforce base on a UFO they had picked up on radar and requested him to investigate. They were his last known words. Mantell's plane was later found strewn across a stretch of ground just southwest of Franklyn, Kentucky.

"I was amazed at what I saw. The amount of debris that was scattered over such an area... The more I saw of the fragments, the more I realized it wasn't anything I was aquainted with. In fact, as it turned out, nobody else was aquainted with it.....There was a coverup some place about this whole matter."
-Major Jesse Marcel, U.S. Army Intelligence Officer in a videotaped interview. Among the first to arrive at the crash site in Roswell, Marcel was well acquainted with all the weather balloons launched by the 509th Bomb Group, presumably including the Mogul balloons, one of which the U.S. Government now claims accounts for the Roswell wreckage.

"In concealing the evidence of UFO operations, the Air Force is making a serious mistake."
-Lt. Colonel James McAshan, USAF

"Flying saucers are real. Too many good men have seen them, that don't have hallucinations."
-Captain Eddie Rickenbacker, "American Ace of Aces," medal of honor-winning commander of the 94th Aero Pursuit Squadron in WWI, with 26 "kills".

"UFOs sighted in Indonesia are identical with those sighted in other countries. Sometimes they pose a problem for our Air Defence and once we were obliged to open fire on them."
-Air Marshall Nurjadin Roesmin, Commander-in-Chief of the Indonesian Air Force, 1967. Also, see the quotes below, by Air Commodore Salutun.

Air Commodore J. Salutun, National Aerospace Council of Indonesia, and Indonesian Parliament Member.

"The most spectacular UFO incident in Indonesia occurred when during the height of President Sukarno's confrontation against Malaysia, UFOs penetrated a well-defended area in Java for two weeks at a stretch, and each time were welcomed with perhaps the heaviest anti-aircraft barrage in history."
"The study of UFOs is a necessity for the sake of world security in the event we have to prepare for the worst in the space age, irrespective of whether we become Columbus or the Indians."
"From their maneuvers and their terrific speed I am certain their flight performance was greater than any aircraft known today."
-Colonel Carl Sanderson, USAF, commenting on his sighting of two circular silver UFOs in close proximity to his plane over Hermanas, New Mexico. The UFOs were said to make a series of seemingly impossible maneuvers before disappearing at an astonishing speed and showing up again over El Paso, Texas.

-Frank H. Schofield, Commander-in-Chief of the Pacific fleet in the 1930s---See Historical Quotes.

"Flying saucers are probably real extra-terrestrial spacecraft."
-From Project Sign's "Estimate of the Situation"--the final report issued by Project Sign which began in 1948 under the auspices of the Air Technical Intelligence Center in an effort to solve the UFO mystery. They studied 243 cases before issuing this final statement to the pentagon.

" something definite in the sky...If it had proved to be hostile we would have destroyed it."
-Major Gerald Smith, USAF--One of the F-106 pilots scrambled under orders from NORAD (North American Air Defense Command) to investigate a UFO over West Palm Beach, Florida on September 14, 1972. The UFO was viewed through binoculars by the FAA supervisor, George Morales, sighted by an Eastern Airlines captain, police and several civilians, as well as being tracked on radar by Miami International Airport and Homestead AFB.

"And don't tell me they were reflections, I know they were solid objects."
-Lieutenant D.A. Swimley, USAF, commenting on a sighting of eight disc shaped objects he and several fellow officers watched circling over Hamilton AFB, California, on August 3, 1953. The objects were also picked up on radar and spotted by many civillian pilots. F-86 Sabres were scrambled to intercept the objects, but the jets were apparently too slow.

"The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious. There are objects approximating the shape of a disc, some of which appear flat on bottom and domed on top. These objects are as large as man-made aircraft and have a metallic or light-reflecting surface. Further they exhibit extreme rates of climb and maneuverability with no associated sound and take action which must be considered evasive when contacted by aircraft and radar."
-Commanding General Nathan F. Twining of the Air Material Command, U.S.A.A.F., in a declassified letter to the Pentagon.

"Headquarters wouldn't let us go after it and we played around a little bit. We got to watching how it made 90 degree turns at this high speed and everything. We knew it wasn't a missile of any type. So then, we confirmed it with the radar control station, and they kept following it, and they claimed that it crashed somewhere off between Texas and the Mexico border."
-Colonel Robert Willingham, USAF from an affidavit filed in the 1970s. Willingham and his navigator(?) were test flying an F-94 on Sept.6, 1950 out of San Angelo, Texas when they were alerted by radar control operators of a UFO in their area.

[sabrina 1]

321. Wow, that is an impressive list of 'woos'! n/t

[Just-plain-Kathy]

136. DK never said "aliens talked" to him. Why would you make that up?

[Enthusiast]

184. He only wishes to discredit Dennis.

That is the only reason to get all Reich Wing on someone. DU has a number of full time GOPers on here trying to stir things up.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

287. I believe you're right. ..n/t

[Adir Pykhtin]

139. When did Kucinich ever claim that an alien talked to him? n/t

[Dragonfli]

151. Never - BooBoo is just making shit up as usual n/t

[Grinchie]

160. I thnik BlooBloo was one of the first to demonize DK when a Dennis Kucinich 2012 post surfaced.

The poster was finished with Obama because of Michal Taylor, and stated that he would now focus energy on Getting DK elected in 2012.

Same disgusting attacks immediately.

Then the other Monsanto apologists arrived. It appears that DK is forever on the hit list of the BioTech industry because he actuall yhad the balls to introduce mandatory GMO labeling which would allow us to trace back our foods to Monsanto or Bayer or BASF GMO sources.

Of coursem the bill was defeated in the Republican congress, but the fact remains that we all want GMO ingrediants already present in our food supply labeled. Thie is Non Negotiable, and Obama blew it with Michael Taylor's appointment.

SO I am in agreement, the DLC owns Obama. It's evident by the recent appointment, and his cozy relationship with the federal reserve. The Democrats in the Congress even went so far as to prohibit the Audit the Fed bill from being amended to the Appropriations bill, while the democrats allowed many other amendments that violated the same rule that they used to prohibit Audit the Fed!

It was Democrat Ben Nelson of Nebraska, a true RAT, sold out to the Federal Reserve.

Everybody that loathed the DLC looked the other way when Rahm was brought on board.. When Hilary was brought on Board, When Pannetta was brought on board, Biden, carried on board.

It's over folks, the DLC are in full control, and are working hand in hand with the Corporations no matter how much you try and deny it.

Time for me to abandon ship while their are a few liferafts remaining and start working to elect some real Democrats with ethics and social consciousness.

[Dragonfli]

161. "start working to elect some real Democrats with ethics and social consciousness."

Thank you for that rather positive reaction to an unfortunate truth.

You are correct, I was getting close to just giving up entirely now that the fix is in, but you are right - the only positive thing left to do is work the fringes and get some good people in their to help even the odds.

I am glad you posted that as it helped me remember that I fought for a better deal during the bush years and I should continue to fight the "new right" clothed in Democratic robes that are little more than the employees of the corporate interests.

No reason to stop trying to take on the windmill now.

[Grinchie]

163. What else can we do?

Why spend energy supporting those who will feed upon us.

In fact, I am ready to starve this administration utterly, and give all my resources to more deserving people.

I voted for Democracy, not Corporatocracy, but the DLC believes it knows better. They are going to be in for a terrible shock when the status quo fails to keep the suckers hooked and in line.

I think the most disturbing thing about this whole mess is that we were really directed to one candidate.. Obama, and it was planned.

McCain was Status Quo. Hilary has a junk yard full of wreckage in her closet, and a closes analysis of thr past, and the results of the first "Media Friendly" Clinton Administration reveals a lot of dirty tricks, tampering with the DoJ, Corporate giveaways, including the First dose of Micahel Taylor years ago, the man who brought us "Substantial Equivalence" and all the legal loopholes that came with it for the benefit of the Corporations. Repeal of Glass Stegall, Hedonics adjustments to the CPI, NAFTA, Favored Trade partner status with China, Drug War continued full speed ahead, with Herbicide to boot. CAFOS, and the list goes on. The more I studied on Clinton, the more I saw the framework being laid for the subsequent abuse taken by Bush.

Add to that, Hilary was a an old more experience Sarah Palin, but with a history. A shoo in right?

Then we had Obama. Unknown, talks the hope and change rhetoric, and is a charismatic charming person. He can communicate, and looks like a real progressive. He was the Powers that be's insurance card. As soon as the election was one, Here come all the same faces of the old Clinton crew, and the DLC starts getting to work.

[RoccoR5955]

141. When did Kucinich say that aliens talk to him?

This is a BS remark that was pulled as a stunt to stifle his ideas via the mainstream media. The only question that Russert asked Dennis in that debate was if he believed in UFOs. What a freakin crock!

And even if aliens did talk to him, I'd believe that before I believed in a talking snake!

[Dragonfli]

149. Unlike The "Christians" that talk to a mythical sky being that tells them to grab money and to hate.

He is far more sane than any of the sky being people that occupy the new "faith" dept of government.
Insanity(faith) based initiatives or whatever they call it these days.

Your Hero talks to the sky being as well doesn't he?

Talks daily with this "super-hero sky being" I understand, much like Bush.

[DUlover2909]

173. OMFG Are you serious?

[Sherman A1]

239. Just put `em on ignore

I did apparently awhile ago and it saves a whole lot of time and patience.

They are never going to change.

[avaistheone1]

202. He did not say that.

Get your facts straight.

[sabrina 1]

228. Batshit crazy was claiming there were WMD's in Iraq

That craziness, supported btw by many people with a D after names, got over a million people killed. Now THAT'S crazy!

People claiming to have seen an unidentified object, a claim made by a least 17% of the American public, not to mention the 70% who believe that the government is hiding facts about UFOs, so far, that kind of 'batshit craziness' hasn't gotten anyone killed. And, it puts Kucinich in the realm of 'normal'.

Your priorities seem a little 'crazy' to me.

[Ken Burch]

319. Any plans to actually apologize for "misspeaking yourself" on that?

Now that it's been proven that Dennis NEVER thought aliens talked to him?

[girl gone mad]

334. That doesn't bother me any more than..

getting blow jobs from an intern does. What does it have to do with ability to do his job?

As long as he is an effective, progressive leader, he can believe in ghosts or fairies or even an all-knowing magical creator, for all I care.

On edit: it looks like their isn't any truth to your claim, anyhow.

[bobbolink]

81. In Europe he'd be considered "moderate"!!!

I find it interesting that on a website where we are not allowed to advocate for any other than Dems, that this kind of hateful talk about a Dem is condoned.

There is nothing about his policies or his politics.... just the same gambit as the RW.... ad hominem attacks.

Why is that allowed?

And what do people get out of doing this? Does it make them feel superior? Smart?

Personally, I'll take a bat for company to one of these namecallers anyday!

[Selatius]

108. Sadly, even in Europe, his brand of politics is slowly being pushed aside.

Neoliberalism is currently infecting the European mainland. Many center-left parties in Europe today were further left 20 years ago. Only the socialist parties seem to be sticking to their guns, instead of embracing neoliberalism or simply being resigned to its seeming inevitability.

[eridani]

223. According to the political spectrum survey, he is slighlty to the right of DU n/t

[Sherman A1]

238. Agreed

DK is a Democrat. Far too many are DINO's in my opinion.

[LanternWaste]

50. I perceive illegal occupations...

I perceive illegal occupations, for-profit health care, and a national obsession with deregulation as Batshit Insane. Guess we all have our own definitions...

[G_j]

65. name calling

seems to be your forte.
I suppose you are proud of yourself.

[rcrush]

94. Why is seeing an UFO supposed to be crazy?

You just dismiss the possibility all together?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

129. Case in point

"Batshit insane"? Where have I heard that kind of attack on DK before? It still amazes me that so called discerning DUers parrot right wing talking points and are completely oblivious when doing so.

[cui bono]

130. oh geez....

Way to make the OP's point. :eyes:

And btw... no one's talking about him being president right now. Any other dumbass comments to make?
Have you even ever listened to what he fights for? You couldn't possibly have and still talk about him like that.

[John Q. Citizen]

137. Yeah, but the difference between you and Dennis is that Dennis isn't an asshole.

That's the difference.

Plus you couldn't get elected to dog catcher and Dennis has been elected to public office more times than Hillary, Obama, and bush jr. combined.

Besides those things though I see your point, sort of maybe... well no not really.

I guess I really don't see your point.

What is your point?

[Grinchie]

152. You think that repeateing that diatribe will make your fantasy come true?

One line wonder. McBlooBloo

[DUlover2909]

170. That's not a fair thing to call him.

Kucinich is a man of ideals and I have never heard anything out of his mouth that is either crazy or unreasonable. I can't believe I am seeing this post here.

[Ken Burch]

249. Dennis would be much more likely to be feeling the love from you

If you didn't insist on calling him "Moonbeam McCrazypants".

:eyes:

And it's not like his presidential campaigns harmed anything.

If he hadn't run in 2004, there'd have been no anti-Iraq War candidate, which would have meant that opponents of the Iraq War would have had no reason to vote.

[fascisthunter]

263. you know what's batshit crazy

going to democratic forums to try and disrupt for fun. A bit pathetic actually.

[midnight]

269. The last time I heard Dennis speaking it was to inform the

expert doctor of why providing public health care wouldn't work via using the Canadians as proof. Dennis had to inform this medical doctor on almost every point. That the Canadian model didn't have it's customers waiting the six month this doctor was claiming but a three week wait period for elective surgery. That no one or close to no one ever went bankrupt from medical need, or care. So I'm not sure what discussion makes Dennis sound crazy, but if this is the type of talk that makes him sound crazy, that's unfortunate.

[warren pease]

291. "Batshit insane..." "Moonbeam McCrazypants..." Really...

And just who the fuck are you to be dissing one of maybe a couple dozen remaining members of congress -- and that's a generous guess -- who have managed to stay out of the same pockets that have bought and paid for the rest of the miserable swine?

The current crop of Democrats in both chambers can't be relied upon to support anything remotely progressive. Since most are wholly owned subsidiaries of the same businesses that fund the GOP, it's hardly surprising that they espouse the same corporate values, while working to undermine anything besides feel-good, band-aid approaches to serious and complex social malfunctions.

And these malfunctions are steadily destroying this country, polarizing rich and poor, bankrupting the treasury, justifying genocide through the phony war on terror, slowly strangling public education by chronic intentional underfunding, increasing mortality and chronic disability because of this predatory for-profit medical system ...

These days, only Kucinich acknowledges that virtually all systems that prop up the US are badly broken and need a major overhaul rather than a minor tuneup. All the blather from the rest of these corporate suck-ups about the wonderfulness of the American people and their entrepreneurial spirit and never say die and our leadership in the world and root root root for the home team, blah, blah, blah... that doesn't do shit except get some people to sit down, shut up and settle for more of the same.

I'm not remotely interested in behaving like a good little DLC lap doggie. Why are you?


sf

[musette_sf]

3. new?

i didn't know they'd stopped.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. They just picked up the pace, with his pushing single-payer into the discussion. nt

[rudy23]

49. Bingo. Kucinich is being used as a weapon against us in the healthcare debate. Sickening.

The DLC is trying to vilify Democratic ideals by tying them to a figure who is very easy to attack, superficially.

They underestimate us.

[Jefferson23]

275. Consider this too if you will. Crap is being laid out to the press like this:

In a potentially alarming trend for the White House, independent voters are deserting President Barack Obama nationally and especially in key swing states, recent polls suggest.

Obama’s job approval rating hit a — still healthy — low of 56 percent in the Gallup Poll on Wednesday. And pollsters are debating whether Obama’s expansive and expensive policy proposals or the ground-level realities of a still-faltering economy are driving the falling numbers.

But a source of the shift appears to be independent voters, who seem to be responding to Republican complaints of excessive spending and government control.

“This is a huge sea change that is playing itself out in American politics,” said Democratic pollster Doug Schoen. “Independents who had become effectively operational Democrats in 2006 and 2008 are now up for grabs and are trending Republican.http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090709/pl_politico/24717

Look at who Schoen is: "Center-Right Nation" Watch - Doug Schoen Edition by: David Sirota

Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 13:45
Doug Schoen is the DLC-affiliated pollster for Republicans like Mike Bloomberg - the guy who bashes progressive organizations from the right, the genius strategist who makes his name on perpetually telling Democrats to capitulate to Republicans on major issues (Think about where Barack Obama would be if he had followed this genius's advice and supported the Iraq War, for instance). Yet, because the media rewards anyone who is a reliable progressive basher, Schoen is still billed as a political "expert" on the pages of fringe publications like the Wall Street Journal's editorial page (not to be confused with the much more credible news section of that same paper):

"This election is not a mandate for Democratic policies. Rather, it is a wholesale rejection of the policies of George W. Bush, Republicans, and to a lesser extent, John McCain...As New York Sen. Chuck Schumer has made clear, we don't have the money or flexibility to do everything Barack Obama wants to do...If the Democrats govern as if there is no Republican Party, they are likely headed to the kind of reaction that Bill Clinton faced when he made the same misjudgment after the 1992 election victory."

Laughably, Schoen contradicts himself in a span of two sentences.

David Sirota :: "Center-Right Nation" Watch - Doug Schoen Edition

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9625

They see Dennis as a big threat.

[rudy23]

7. I've never heard it like this. I knew some people who thought he was a bad messenger of Dem ideals

but never these vicious attacks based on the impracticality of Dennis's "leftness."

It sounds to me like it's a top-down attack, b/c the timing is so weird for so many to come out against DK in this harsh manner. Why now, and why here? I won't try to guess who is orchestrating this attack, but I can guess their initials.

D. L. C.

[Individualist]

32. Your guess is correct

[musette_sf]

34. try initials R E

[rudy23]

37. Way ahead of you. He's a annoying MF. nt

[hootinholler]

52. Where were you during the primaries?

It was gang bang rape of DK the whole time.

-Hoot

[Grinchie]

182. "timing is so weird for so many to come out against DK "

It is an illusion. There are only 3 or four in general that meterialize out of the shadows to immediately pounce on any thread that shows DK's merits, such as sensibility, ethics, wisdom, and a willingness to tell the truth.

Their only attacks are:

Name Calling
He Talks to aliens.
Is Ugly/Unelectable

They also will directly demean anyone that expresses support for DK as "Your stupid, why would you waste you time of someone who is unelectable"

It's like they have a right to tell me what I should do, while they apologize for the latest DLC motivated giveaway Obama rams down our throats.

I had forgotten about the DLC for the most part until others reminded me that they still exist in some form, but have probably changed their name to "CHANGE"

They basically owned the other thread supporting DK, but this one has a wider cross section of positives for DK, so it's a better sample.

The vocal, empty barrels usually can not compete with the honest posters here on DU, and that's what makes DU one of the better forums on the web. Yes, there are idiots and trolls everywhere, but the sunshine burns brightly on them here at DU

[Ignis]

71. They just crank the hate up when DK interferes with profits.

How dare he speak in favor of the public option?!

[flvegan]

101. OR when he talks about doing the right thing, which normally flies in the face of

whatever Obama is doing. Some cheerleaders never let their pom-poms rest.

[Ignis]

103. The only "right thing" some understand is $$$.

I think it's just the fact that DK has a conscience that makes him such an outlier in politics.

[Vidar]

5. The corporate scum hate him & try to marginalize him at every turn.

[Mari333]

9. corporate scum indeed, and those who prefer corporate scum

run their country into the ground.
I love Kucinich, hes always right on.

[Enthusiast]

189. Anyone that tries to marginalize him

is corporate scum. That is why they are here.

[Horse with no Name]

6. I had conversations with republicans before the heat of the election cycle

that liked what he said. Democrats are the ones that shot him out of the water.
It was the DLC'ers that said he wasn't pretty enough or he was too "far left" to win.

[eridani]

233. Some Repubs like what he says about single payer

www.republicansforsinglepayer.com

[rudy23]

10. See, this unrecommend function favors bloggers who blog in groups.

If it was DLC staffers who were orchestrating an anti-Kucinich/left Democrat campaign, then they would work together to take this off the greatest page.

Lone wolves have a disadvantage b/c we only get to unrecommend once.

[Raster]

77. Unfortunately the "owners" of this website are not foreign to DLCers.

[Sebastian Doyle]

13. Actually it's a very old DLC talking point.

Just like bashing Howard Dean. Or Bernie Sanders. Or anyone else who resists corporatist bullshit.

[RufusTFirefly]

67. Exactly right. And it's depressing how readily people are brainwashed by it

When you think about it, Dennis Kucinich and single-payer are really kindred spirits. Conventional wisdom tells us that both are "unelectable." Nobody can really say why except by using a kind of circular logic that runs on unsubstantiated memes, distortions, and downright lies. But many people listen obediently to conventional wisdom and never really question where it's coming from. So there you have it.

[Grinchie]

186. You forgot endless repetition, and make sure the Attack is the fisrt thing people see

It's amazing how quickly the attack dogs can zero in and plant a negative post.

[Enthusiast]

190. Right you are, Sebastian Doyle nt

[tritsofme]

15. I generally find the antics of his cult following around here to be much more tiresome

than he is, usually.

If that is any consolation.

[rudy23]

17. By 'cult following', do you mean 'Democrats'? nt

[bigwillq]

18. That's how I feel about the antics of the Obama cult (nt)

[Mari333]

23. +100

[Dragonfli]

154. I do as well - but they are far more frightening, They are like Rush's Ditto-heads

They don't think for themselves, they just think what they are told to think.

[tomp]

271. dennis is the anti-obama/pelosi/reid and that is a good thing. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. By "cult following" do you mean those

who think the Democratic Party should stand up for ordinary citizens instead of coddling the corporations?

If anyone has a cult following here (in the sense of uncritical admirers who defend everything he does and says, even if it's the same as what Bush did and said)...

[charlie]

48. We're supposed to be grownups

Sensible realists. Y'know, the sort that came within a hair of putting Joe Lieberman (chairman, DLC) into the veep's office and on the fast track to the presidency. Who value Evan Bayh's (chairman, DLC) pragmatic approach to healthcare, appreciates Harold Ford's (chairman, DLC) efforts to campaign across the aisle, and admires Michael Steinhardt's (chairman, DLC) nonpartisan embrace of Bush/Cheney. Why support the jug-eared New Ager instead of blow-dried suits just because he's more often right on issues? Get real.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. Of course we have to become adults and recognize that

the left was all wrong when it said that financial deregulation was dangerous, that "free" trade would accelerate the loss of jobs, that Iraq would be a quagmire, and that it was a bad idea to cut the social safety net because good times wouldn't last forever.

We should hang our heads in shame for all our bad calls. :blush: :sarcasm:

[Grinchie]

188. Lydia, that only works if people have working memories.

Facts, Knowledge, and logic never work to the benefit of the Politician or theocrat.

[Cleita]

21. Yes, they have always tried to make him look like a left wing loonie when

in fact what he does is speak the truth and won't spin anything. I noticed that they are also trying to make the doctor's group Physicians for a National Health Plan also look like left wing loonies when in fact they are not political but a think tank that has found a solution to our health care problems. Unfortunately, it has made them some very powerful corporate enemies in the health care field and their toadies in the DLC are more than happy to spread their propaganda.

[Raster]

26. Hell, we have plenty in our own little DU-land more than willing to promulgate the...

..."left wing loonie" bullshit. Just take a look at this thread.

[Cleita]

53. Yep and I believe many are operatives who are paid to disrupt. Of course

I'm not mentioning names because it's against the rules but some are so obvious. The centrist politicos really fear Dennis I believe. He has a way of speaking the truth and making the crooks in Congress squirm, like when he was the only Congressman with the cojones to introduce impeachment bills against the last administration who are criminals and traitors. The truth was very uncomfortable for them no matter how much they tried to obfuscate the fact that our last President was a criminal and a traitor and tried to bury what Dennis was trying to do.

[rudy23]

88. If not for that rule, I would have a list that was very hard to dispute. nt

[Grinchie]

191. It's ok Rudy, the bad pennies are usually easy to pick out

I guess it's my experiance as a software engineer and database analyst.

After years of working with mundane details and disparate peieces of data, you get a talent to identify patterns everywhere.

These patterns are unmistakebale, and allow one to pick out the BS from the Misinformed, from the outright crazy.

[conscious evolution]

247. You should post it anyway

What are the mods gonna do,delete it?If they do then someone else will post it.Then again and again till everyone knows who the dlc scumbag gatekeepers are.Once everyone here knows who they are then no one will pay them anymore mind.

[rudy23]

284. Just keep this thread bookmarked. ;) nt

[timtom]

22. "Is bashing Dennis Kucinich the new DLC talking point? "

No, it's been going on for a number of years...

[Individualist]

25. It is a DLC talking point but not a new one

DLC trashed him big time during the '04 campaign, and DLC supporters here do the same.

[rudy23]

41. It seems like they're doing it in a new context now. Trying to brand those not on board with the DLC

as loonies while President Obama carries out his center-right platform.

It seems like this is Obama's strategy for keeping the left at bay. Just brand us until it's Cool to be Corporate.

I am thrilled that Obama is president, but he is extremely overconfident in his ability to shut the left up so he can carry out his 'bipartisan' platform that has been bought and paid for by the corporations he's indebted to.

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. Don't forget how we went after him 2008

The DLCers on DU managed to stop the Democratic Party from making a terrible mistake by nominating Kucinich.

[Grinchie]

193. Ah here he is to Chime in.

You're late.

Why am I not suprised that you are a DLC thug?

[Freddie Stubbs]

256. You probably not surprised, because I am usually supporting real Democrats

[NorthCarolina]

278. The DLC is not reflective of "Real Democrats"

with the DLC, who needs Republicans?

[Freddie Stubbs]

288. President Obama seems to like them, as he has hired so many to work in his administration

[NorthCarolina]

322. Obama has also openly indicated he considers himself a "New Democrat"

which is a new moniker for "DLC", but without the negative public perception. So there is little doubt he (Obama) likes them. I consider someone like Bernie Sanders or Russ Feingold or Kucinich to be the epitome of a Traditional Democrat. Neither the "New Democrats" or DLC, or whatever they want to label themselves today, nor Obama are what I would consider Traditional Democrats, but rather they are reflective of Traditional Republicans before their take over by religious fanatics. There is really no longer a traditional democratic party as both political parties now lie to the right of the general public.

[kenfrequed]

292. Where to begin...

A. As much as I support Kucinich it would have been tough for him to get the nomination. Not impossible, but tough.

B. As much as I despise the DLC, don't break your arm patting yourself on the back too hard. The corporate owned media did not like Kucinich much either. The Des Moines register (a very conservative newspaper) did as much as anyone to try to wreck the Kucinich campaign.

C. What the DLC did accomplish in trying to undermine Kucinich was to wreck the democratic parties bargaining posture by mistaking the compromise for the majority. This has been their mistake all along. Compromise has always been the way of politics, but when your entire organization is predicated on compromising with your opposition then you create a point where the compromise will be halfway between the DLC and the right wing conservative republicans.

We are now feeling the sting of that strategic idiocy with Healthcare reform. As of today the blue dogs have decided AGAIN to hold up the whole damn thing for favors, vanity, and health insurance campaign donations.

Had he gotten a little farther or a little more support he could have tagged the Democratic party positions a bit more to the left of "center" which would have created a more dynamic debate and ended up with a system that would probably have fewer giveaways to the pharmecuitical companies and the insurance lobby. If you want you can take credit for that.

D. Undermining the only candidate that put out traditionally progressive ideas should probably not be something anyone but a republican should be proud of.

[Freddie Stubbs]

295. It was necessary to crush Kucinich to show people that he was outside of the mainstream of the party

Last year's primaries was essentially a race between two moderates, Obama and Clinton. People now see our party as the moderate party, not the liberal party. And guess what? We're winning elections.

[kenfrequed]

299. Sorry

That is an absurd and over simplifed analysis. Most democrats (and all candidates really) tend to do somewhat better when they can:

A: In the eyes of the public Obama was not considered a "Moderate." He was considered a fairly progressive democrat. If you want to wrangle around and around about safe points made in speeches here and here go ahead. His voting record in lower offices told a different story. Oh yeah and he used the word "change" an awful lot for a moderate-stay the course sort.

B: After 8 years of Bush the American people were wanting something else very badly. I don't think you can automatically assume that they all wanted a moderate. Additionally democrats that embraced ideas like bringing the troops home, healthcare for all, and any number of any progressive issues.

C: When you poll people on the issues they end up favoring not just Democratic issues, but issues that are significantly to the progressive side of the Democratic party.

D: Presently it is the Blue dog conservative democrats that are holding up healthcare and risking wrecking the party for vanity, favors, and campaign contributions from health insurance companies.


- why are most of your posts one liners by the way? Do you spend all of your time cruising as many threads as you can to throw in your "pearls of wisdom"? Or is the board here not worth detailed responses?

[hootinholler]

28. They can add a few more unrecommends and take this off the greatest again too n/t

[OutNow]

39. Can I join the Dennis cult?

If Dennis is the head of a cult please tell me how to join it. When Dennis ran for President in 2004 I attended a fund raiser concert in Austin set up by Willy Nelson, my favorite hippy country singer. As if that wasn't enough reason to attend, Michael McDonald and most of the Doobies, Bonnie Raitt and Michelle Shocked also performed. It was the best music / political event of the year, maybe the decade. I'm hoping that if I join the Dennis cult I'll be invited to similar events.

BTW - It sure was nice being at The Austin Music Hall with a couple thousand Texas progressives.

[earth mom]

40. Yep there are several jerks around here that do everything they can to discredit Kucinich

Sometimes DU looks like Faux news. :puke:

[Raster]

76. Yes they do, and one has to ask themselves "why"?

When you can't get rid of them via small planes, you have to resort to small minds.

[Enthusiast]

194. Good one, Raster! nt

[Raster]

225. Danke!

[girl gone mad]

42. No. Attacking every person who dares to criticize their agenda is.

Kucinich, Krugman, Sanders, Turley, Dean, Helen Thomas.

That's what you do when you can't defend your worthless ideas.

[knixphan]

46. Seconded.

[Raster]

64. Thirded, and fucking tired of the deliberate attacks and misinformation.

[chill_wind]

220. And add to that good guys like David Sirota,

Glenn Greenwald and Jeremy Scahill, who remain committed to the same issues they were committed to long before Jan 19 2009. Even our only two most successful NON-RW corp media voices (KO and Maddow) who have become the rare exceptions to the relentless, pervasive RW noise machine get knocked down here with alarming enthusiasm at times. In the grand scheme of RW corp media, I especially don't take the latter two for granted for a broadcasting milli-second, ever.

[Echo In Light]

47. Many Dems are more so aligned w/moderate repubs than Lefties like DK. Sad but true.

[rudy23]

51. Especially when they're paid to. nt

[Cleita]

54. LOL! So true. n/t

[cui bono]

135. the DUINOs

DUers in name only.

[LWolf]

55. Why?

Because the dlc/centrist/corporatists/3rd way dems have come into power with the election of Obama, and he makes them look bad.

[G_j]

61. because he's not a coward, and he tells the TRUTH!

that is threatening

[rudy23]

69. Bingo. We have to be vigilant in protecting his/our image, and not letting them get away with it.

Keep making them look bad until they realize they have to meet us on our side of the fence if they want to stop looking so horrible.

[troubledamerican]

183. Because he recently EVISCERATED "Dr. Neocon DLC Talking Points" on widely-seen video?

[LWolf]

330. That, too.

Pelosi & Hoyer could learn something from him.

[TreasonousBastard]

66. I have met him and...

I agree with most of his stands and positions, in principle.

But, I found him to be an asshole-- able to reasonably articulate his positions, but unable to work with anyone to accomplish anything.

There is a DUer I met who worked for Kucinich early in one of his campaigns and quit because of, as he described it, the incredible confusion and stupidity within the campaign.

I would like to like Kucinich, but he is, in the end, the sound and fury signifying nothing.

(To answer your question, it's not so much the Kooch himself, but there are some of us who get frustrated beyond repair by the Kuchinichers who keep pushing it.)

[rudy23]

68. There are a lot of a-holes who can't work with anyone in Congress. Why pick the one who

seems to be the most faithful to the general Democratic platform?

Not dismissing your experience, but why would that bring out so-called Democratic bloggers to attack him in chorus during this healthcare debate? I'm sure some Democrats genuinely don't care much for him, but that's usually not enough to bring about a chorus of vicious attacks.

And he's rarely attacked for being an a-hole, but for being too left, "kooky", or "batshit insane." It seems pretty orchestrated and unnatural, to me.

[TreasonousBastard]

78. As I, and someone else, said...

it's not so much Dennis himself, who would simply bask in obscurity, but his chorus of fans drive some of us crazy.

It's come down to a choice between "You're one sorry-ass dumb motherfucker to believe in that guy" or "Your hero is one sorry-ass dumb motherfucker"

We choose the "polite" response. although it could be argued that we should try harder to just shut up and let it go.

[Raster]

72. You "have met him"...but found "...him able to reasonably articulate his positions, but unable...

...to work with anyone to accomplish anything."

Wow, must of been one hell of a meeting.

"I would like to like Kucinich, but he is, in the end, the sound and fury signifying nothing."

Textbook attempted Kucinich marginalization.

[TreasonousBastard]

79. OK, prove me wrong-- show me what he has accomplished.

[sabrina 1]

230. He has accomplished revealing the truth about the

Iraq War supplementals, for one thing. It was he who revealed the clause that required the Iraqis to sign over control of more than 80% of their oil to multi-national oil Corps, proving that those of us who had been vilified for claiming that the war was not about any terrorist threat, but about oil, were right. I appreciated that revelation as it made my arguments with right wing-nuts far easier to support.

And that is just one thing he accomplished, and for doing his duty and telling the truth to the American people he was threatened with censure by our 'not batshit insane' Congress :sarcasm:

Just because someone is in the minority doesn't make them wrong especially in DC where the people are at the bottom of the list of concerns for a majority of their so-called representatives.

There IS value in truth-telling, despite what you might think. He is a thorn in the sides of those who would lie to or hide facts from the American people and that makes him one of the most valuable Reps. in Congress.

[GReedDiamond]

169. "Textbook attempted Kucinich marginalization"

...based entirely on one person's anecdotal experience and third-hand stories told to that one person by others.

I'm very tired of Kucinich haters.

I wish Kucinich was my Congressional Representative (actually, I wish he were my President). Unfortunately I'm stuck at this point in time with David Dreier (R, The Closet) for my "Representative," although there is virtually nothing he does that represents me.

[G_j]

75. I've met him also

perhaps your experience is more deeply involved than mine, but 'asshole' is certainly the last thing that comes to mind.
:shrug:

[TreasonousBastard]

82. When asked "how" he would accomplish...

some of his wilder plans, the answer was always some variation on "Trust me, it will be done because it is the right thing to do."

This from someone who spent most of his life in politics.

[Cleita]

80. I too have met him and worked for him on campaigns and find him

to be genuine and not an ass hole, so stop saying that!

[TreasonousBastard]

83. Then your experience is far different from mine.

[LWolf]

84. I've met and spoken with him twice.

Both times, while there were others eagerly waiting for access, he focused intently on me, listened carefully, and responded intelligently and thoroughly, then took my hand and thanked me for being there before he turned to the rest of the room.

One of those gatherings was disrupted by 2 Larouche supporters. I was impressed with his courtesy, his patience, his calm, and finally his firmness in allowing them a moment, addressing them, and then shutting them down when they wanted to disrupt.

The polar opposite of "asshole."

Trouble in the campaign? Perhaps. He didn't have any political sharks organizing for him, and he didn't have the budget of the mainstream candidates, that's for sure.

I'm curious...what do you think we (Kucinich supporters) are "pushing?"

I don't care if he runs for president; I personally would rather see him as Speaker.

I'd like it if someone who isn't bought and owned by main street and corporate interests would run for president, giving me a chance to vote FOR a candidate, rather than AGAINST one. I've given up expecting it in the GE. I was pissed that 4 states got to deny me that chance in the last primary.

I'd be happy to vote for any Democrat from the left wing of the party for president. It doesn't have to be DK; there just haven't been any others stepping up. Perhaps because there are so few left in the party as a whole.

Is it that we continue to push his ideas, his policy, his agenda, when they so obviously conflicts with the current Democratic administration?

We do so because they are so obviously superior. :shrug:

[RoccoR5955]

143. Kucinich/Sanders '12 Take Back America

We need leaders like these two. They are two people who have worked for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations.

[LWolf]

329. THAT is a great team. nt

[mvd]

187. And from his site, a nice list of accomplishments I'd say

From his website:

"In Congress, Kucinich has authored and co-sponsored legislation to create a national health care system, preserve Social Security, lower the costs of prescription drugs, provide economic development through infrastructure improvements, abolish the death penalty, provide universal prekindergarten to all 3, 4, and 5 year olds, create a Department of Peace, regulate genetically engineered foods, repeal the USA PATRIOT Act, and provide tax relief to working class families.

Kucinich has been honored by Public Citizen, the Sierra Club, Friends of the Earth and the League of Conservation Voters as a champion of clean air, clean water and an unspoiled earth. Kucinich has twice been an official United States delegate to the United Nations Convention on Climate Change (1998, 2004) and attend the 2002 World Summit on Sustainable Development in Johannesburg, South Africa.

In his district, Kucinich has been recognized by the Greater Cleveland AFL-CIO as a tireless advocate for the social and economic interests of his community.

Kucinich led the effort to save Cleveland's 90 year-old steel industry and the thousands of jobs and retiree benefits it provides. While hundreds of community hospitals have been closed throughout the country, Kucinich led a community-based effort to reopened two Cleveland neighborhood hospitals.

Kucinich worked with the nation's largest railroads to create a merger agreement that improved rail safety while diverting a heavy volume of train traffic away from heavily populated residential areas of his district.

In Cleveland, Kucinich has been honored by the Cleveland AFL-CIO, the Ohio PTA, the NASA Glenn Research Center, the Salvation Army, the United States Post Office, the Department of Veterans Affairs, Ohio Department of Jobs and Family Services, Ohio’s Boys Town, and the Human Rights Campaign."

http://kucinich.house.gov/Biography/

And of course there were his articles of impeachment which finally made a case for it.

While I'd like him as President, I agree with you. He might be able to make a bigger difference as Speaker.

[LWolf]

328. He's been acting on what we want,

while the rest sit on their hands.

He's earned my support.

[bbgrunt]

86. gosh, you could say the same thing about a lot

of dems. I'm frustrated with Feingold because he doesn't seem to be able to sway enough dems to his point of view. I feel betrayed by Conyers' ineffectiveness. Diane Feinstein is positively diabolical. Chuck Schumer is as bad as Arlen Specter when it comes to reliability. etc. etc.

nooooo, sorry. Your statement that he is an asshole just seems like more of the same dem bashing that is so devisive and traitorous to dem ideals.

[Grinchie]

205. Boo Hoo Hoo

Anyone that focuses on ethics and ideals, who is confrinted daily with masses to neurotic people working towrds their own detriment is an "Asshole".

I'm an Asshole anytime I find an ignorant, stupid person that pretends to be an authority on something, but doesn't have a clue on the subject.

Some democrats believe that everyone has to be politically crorrect, and kiss everyobodies ass, otherwise they can't work under that horrible pressure.. Oh the agony.

Well, that's Bullshit. I would much rather work with a team of wolves that works together when it's necessary and gets the job done. I don't care if someone tells me to work harder, or that I can do better, but I expect the same for others as well. I don't have to love everyone I work with, otherwise, not much would ever get done.

Too many people have a thin skin these days. They are coddled beyond recognition, and don't have the stamina to work for the long haul.

[Hippo_Tron]

85. He demagogues some very complex issues, IMO, and that bothers me

Central bank independence is a good example. Almost every major economic power has a central bank with a certain degree of autonomy from the federal government. Now I can certainly understand arguments that our central bank should be less autonomous and more transparent. There have been numerous academic studies done that show the merits of having less central bank autonomy. If Kucinich wants to reign in the fed then he should look at the scholarly work done on the subject and use that to make his case.

Instead of doing that he goes on the house floor and makes ridiculous one-liners like "the federal reserve is no more federal than the federal express" and aligns himself with the conspiracy nuts like Ron Paul who think the fed killed JFK and are responsible for every bad thing that has happened in this country. When he does that, I'm really not inclined to take him seriously.

[rudy23]

89. Enough to call him "batshit insane" or "a little shit?" B/c that's what others were doing.

Your criticisms are of a far different nature than the bashing I'm talking about.

I have criticisms of Dennis Kucinich, too. There are plenty of feasible criticisms to have about the guy that don't smack of an orchestrated effort to SMEAR the guy and LASSO him to the left side of the healthcare debate.

[Hippo_Tron]

105. No, generally I only refer to people who are batshit insane as batshit insane

Kucinich isn't batshit insane, although from time to time he does say some things that border on it. Whether or not he actually believes those things is a different matter. But the fact is that in politics your opponents will often try to associate your side with negative qualities such as "insanity".

The point is that you are correct that opponents of single-payer like the DLC do have an incentive to paint him in a certain way and they will absolutely do that. No, it's not fair, but absolutely nothing about politics is fair.

The thing you have to take into consideration, however, is that this game is played by both sides. Those who support positions that are further to the left than those that the President have an incentive to paint the President as a "corporate sellout", "DLC shill", "Republican lite", "spineless wimp", etc., etc.

Now I admit that most people who attack the President from the left have less money and less access to media than those who are attacking single-payer advocates from the right. That does not, however, make their tactics anymore intellectually honest.

What you see on DU is kind of a vicious cycle of attacks. The fact is that some people like the President and they don't like the picture they paint of him. In retaliation they take the worst picture that can be painted of Dennis Kucinich and they start repeating it here, because Dennis Kucinich is more or less the most popular face with those who are critical of Obama from the left. Note, I don't mean that to say that the left started it or the President's supporters started it, this game is played simultaneously.

[rudy23]

124. Good points.

I agree that the attacks on DK are no more unfair than some of the name-calling of Obama.

The key difference here is, where the attacks are coming from and why. If these attacks are coming from the White House's political team, then what they're doing is taking our idealism that got them elected, and using it to vilify us in a life/death debate that was one of the key issues in the Pres. race.

Think about how shitty that narrative sounds, especially once it goes mainstream. Obama uses his supporters until he doesn't need us, then he promptly sells us out.

[Grinchie]

208. Don't anyone be fooled that the DLC doesn't own media as effectively as the Right wing.

Hilary virtually had a complete blackout regarding her illegal campaign fundraising in 2000, and the evidence of control goes back to Bill clintons days in Arkansas when he was womanizing all over the place.

[Enthusiast]

196. Allowing the country to continue

on this path IS batshit insane. That is for certain.

[Grinchie]

206. Too bad that it's all true... But that doesn't bother your does it?

Or maybe it does bother you, but you like the idea that a small, private group of people can control the direction of business and technology at will?

He is not the only one saying it. In fact, this is public knowledge for anyone with a Browser and Internet connection to see.

[Hippo_Tron]

317. A small group of people (9 specifically) get to interpret the constitution as well

Those people just like the federal reserve board of governors are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate and they can be impeached and removed from office by Congress.

[ecstatic]

90. Moreso misplaced frustration that leads to the attacks

DK is not the answer to all of our problems.

I liked Dennis K. a lot, especially back in 2003. What I came to realize was that he could never be an effective leader in our party. In every interview I saw, he was torn to shreds. How embarrassing! We need someone who can speak effectively for us and recruit allies and build relationships.

Not only that, but DK has done some disturbing things in his past. Changed stances on important issues like abortion and some lingering questions on his racial views. He even said he would love to be running mates with Ron Paul!

My view of him is a lot more cynical now. I think DK has learned over the years that he can keep the money flowing as long as he puts on a show for liberals like you. He knows nothing he says or does will ever be implemented, it is all for show. Ask his constituents how well served they feel. I think the answer would be very telling.

[rudy23]

92. So all this misplaced frustration just so happens to come out 8 months after the election?

What did DK do recently to prompt all this hate?

Which makes me think---is it something DK did, or is the debate that's going on right now that's prompting this clearly orchestrated DK hatefest online.

[ecstatic]

106. The "hate" comes in response to OPs like the one that said "Kucinich 2012"

Most of us are on the same side and want the same things YESTERDAY. The difference is our reactions to not getting the things we want immediately.

One segment, after 6 months, is declaring that Obama must be defeated in 2012 because he couldn't wave a magic wand and get everything done. People like that can never be satisfied and many of them push Kucinich as the hero who could save us all. But the rest of us know that even Kucinich would be torn apart because he is only human and can't change the country and the world in 6 months.

[rudy23]

110. I don't think it's the amount of time Obama's taking, but the direction he's moving in.

Was time a factor in his appointment of Michael Taylor to the FDA?

[truedelphi]

217. Good - a succinct answer to the

Infallible, empty souls here who think that having a Corporate-owned tool in the WH is somehow going to help most people in this nation.

No halfway intelligent person expects the entire economy to rebound in six months. But when what we get is the either clueless or absolutely corrupt Geithner/Bernanke duo running the show, it is not any longer a matter of time, it is a matter of judgement.

A person considering this is left realizing there are only two possiblities:
Obama is inept and of poor judgement
Or
Obama is corrupt.

[Grinchie]

210. He didn't do anything.. Obama just asked the country to bend over once to many.

This whole thing flared up because of the Michael Taylor appointment on Monday.

This pissed off a huge constituency that formerly supported Obama. They were already on the fence, after FISA, GITMA, Lack of Justice regarding Bush/Cheney and the abuses of power. The recent decision to keep visitor logs secret, Vilsack, Hilary, Emmanual.

But now, it's clear that we get to keep GMO unlabeled, the horrors of the CAFO churning along without hesitation, and a cap a trade system that doesn't do anything for the environment. The Military is still burning piles of money, and the Federal Reserve is having slumber parties in the white house.

The Taylor appointment is the worst mistake that the DLC has made so far, and the frightening thing is that most DU'ers don't have a clue why, nor do they care.

[rudy23]

243. This sums it up best. nt

[truedelphi]

216. Seems orchestrated to me.

But then, I end up going, Probably just me.

[LoZoccolo]

93. Unrecommend HA HA HA HA! n/t

[slay]

99. Some people just like being assholes

:eyes:

[Individualist]

102. +22 recommends

...in...your...face!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

[slay]

236. Very cool : +104 recs now

DK is one of the ONLY politicians I would actually trust. He's a dying breed - a true man of the people. What an amazing, awesome guy.

[slay]

97. There are indeed some people on DU who bash Kucinich in every DK thread

And they do indeed seem to have DLC leanings. Good call - I've noticed it too. :hi:

Dennis is awesome - I feel sorry for those who either don't see it, or even worse do, and still choose to attack him.

[scheming daemons]

98. Rudy23.... your thread is currently +21.... doesn't that invalidate your opinion of rec/unrec?

[rudy23]

111. At one point that thread was +9, then a minute later, +2

No, the fact that I'm plus 21 on that thread means nothing to me, nor to anyone else who's now getting their anti-corporate posts knocked down by corporate bloggers.

[dionysus]

100. uh, i doubt the DLc gives any thought to dennis kucinich, and i hate the dlc.

[rudy23]

117. No, but they give a LOT of thought to discrediting the Democratic wing of the party. DK is just

the guy they're trying to use to "tar" us.

[Odin2005]

107. Dennis is a grand-standing buffoon, unlike Bernie Sanders.

[rudy23]

113. "Grand-standing buffoon"---I'm going to keep track of these.

You're proving my point----this is a pretty atypical amount of DK bashing for it not being an election cycle. So what else could be provoking this?

Could it be---the healthcare debate where so many DLC'ers want to sell us all down the river? Where DK represents the true left who want UHC? Seems a lot more likely to me.

[KoKo]

126. Really? Have any evidence to back that blanket statement up?

Links? Even your own "off the cuff" verification by posting instances?

:shrug:

[chascarrillo]

145. I do.

Dennis Kucinich was one of a handful - less than 10 - of Democrats who voted to rename Washington National Airport the Ronald Reagan National Airport. He bragged about this to Ron Reagan on the latter's radio show during the last Presidential Primary. This was a vicious slap in the face to unions.

Fuck the twerp.

[Enthusiast]

197. Why the name calling?

Why act like a typical freeper?

[chascarrillo]

207. Um, isn't calling someone here a "freeper" name-calling?

[fascisthunter]

309. saying someone "acts" like a freeper

isn't quite the same thing

[Kingofalldems]

112. It's not DLC, it's repubs posing as Democrats

It is a good way to infiltrate and be allowed to trash Democrats at will.

[rudy23]

119. What's the difference? nt

[Individualist]

128. It IS DLC

neocon enabling, corporate and military industrial complex loving DLC.

[slipslidingaway]

116. Recommendation: +35 (95 votes) n/t

[rudy23]

118. Wow. 60 people unrec'd this thread. I'm sure some just didn't like it, but doesn't that prove my

point better than anything else I could say?

[slipslidingaway]

121. Appears that way, one thing to not like and ignore, another to

actually unrecommend the thread.

[charlie]

123. Uh-uh

30 unrec'd it. It took 30 recs to cancel those, plus another 35 to take it into positive territory.

Kooch has a pretty good-sized contingent of support here.

[rudy23]

125. You got it . Yes, he's got support, and for some weird reason, a new wave of vile antipathy

It's just so happened to come along as the White House tries to buck their liberal base on the healthcare debate. Hmmm....

[rudy23]

120. My math might be a little off, but the point remains. nt

[slipslidingaway]

122. Yes, the point remains. n/t

[slipslidingaway]

127. Another point is that single-payer not for profit HC is what insurance

companies fear the most, that is why it has been excluded from the discussions and was excluded from the presidential debates.

There never was a follow-up question from the moderator or from any other candidate, they wanted to bury the topic as fast as possible.

Corporate interests have been successful.

:(

[Grinchie]

214. Wait a minute, Emmanual just announced he was for it

Right after he announced he was against it and got his ass handed to him.

[slipslidingaway]

277. Emanuel for single-payer, not for profit HC??? That must have

been the public option, some people refer to a SP system as the public option, but I believe that causes more confusion.

:)

[rudy23]

134. Btw, anybody hiring? nt

[Fearless]

138. To the DLC: "Run to the hills. Run for your lives...."

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

[RandomThoughts]

146. Well you got the violins and the comments, how about some songs.

DLC has irritated me before also.

Run to the hills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO6RplZHYAs

You better run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz1RiIp-9mU

But like in all things, I wish them the best, God Bless.

[Dragonfli]

144. We are seeing the new policy in action as paid DLC lurkers take away recs on this thread.

It appears to work as intended - good job! (in the same way that the Chinese do a good job with their content on the web)

[Grinchie]

148. He's got my support. Obama can go take a hike.

[TygrBright]

153. Whaddaya mean, "new"? n/t

[LynneSin]

164. Wait, 70 recs? I thought the Right-wing DUers were DLC ops out to repress this kind of post

:eyes:

And btw I like Dennis

[Dragonfli]

218. Why yes, it is obvious, how? Let's take a look shall we,,.

In algebraic terms let us say:

Repression = (votes - "Recommendations")/2 and Actual Recommendations = ((Votes - Recommendations)/2) + "Recommendations"

At the Time of My Post there were 84 Recommendations (166 votes)

Therefore

Repression Or R=(V-R)/2=41

Actual Recommendations Or AR=((V-R)/2)+R=125
_______________________________________________________

This post had in grass-root support 125 Recommendations

With a DLC spoiler factor of 41


It only got 84 recorded Recommendations and yesterday it would have gotten 125
Any questions?

[scheming daemons]

165. A pro-Kucinich/anti-DLC thread that currently has a +69 score.... guess all the gnashing of teeth

...by those who thought "progressive" threads would be unrec-ed into oblivion was premature.

[Better Believe It]

167. 40 voted to remove this thread from the greatest

Who do you think did that?

I know.

An unorganized group that has nothing to do with the DLC and other "moderates".

Sure.

That's the ticket!

[scheming daemons]

180. So.... 2/3 of DU approved of the OP, while 1/3 did not.... and you have a problem with that?

It's called Democracy... and this thread shows it works.


This was a pro-Kucinich thread... a group of people that claim they're an oppressed minority here under the new system.... and 2/3 of the people that cared to vote on the thread voted for it to go to the greatest page.


hundreds of people have viewed this thread and 40 people unrec'd it. And to you, that's fascism?


And guess what? The site is "Democratic Underground"... not "Progressive Underground". So yes.... "moderate" Democrats are as welcome here as leftist Kucinichians.

[Better Believe It]

272. 100 have now voted to remove a pro-Kucinich post from the front page of DU

100 viewers is a lot. It was obviously an organized action by people who just don't want to see anything positive about Kucinich on DU. Is that really so difficult for you to understand? I didn't support Kucinich when he last ran but I do support the right of Kucinich supporters to post without being trampled on by organized cliques.

That to me is not fascism .... a word that some people who don't understand the meaning of terms like fascism and democracy like to throw around a lot.

The attempt by 100 DU'ers to remove the post from the front page smacks more of censorship than fascism. And this new procedure gives a huge opening to individuals and political cliques who want to police posts on DU and control/dominate discussions and debates on DU.

Does someone also need to explain the meaning and practice of censorship to you?

[scheming daemons]

279. I unrec'd it, and I'm not part of an "organized action".....

100 people out of 4000 views is actually not a lot at all.

And how is it that 100 unrecs is an "organized action", but 300 recs is NOT?

You're being disingenuous.


Do Kucinich threads have some inalienable RIGHT to the Greatest Page, just because they're about Kucinich? That's assinine.



And this sentence makes no sense:

"I do support the right of Kucinich supporters to post without being trampled on by organized cliques."

A. being unrec'd is NOT being "trampled on".
B. THIS THREAD IS ON THE GREATEST PAGE. So obviously the "organized effort" of those that dislike Kucinich is much much less than the ORGANIZED EFFORT of those that want to promote Kucinich threads.

[Better Believe It]

300. I believe that some people are and some people are not. So what's your point?

The effort of over 100 people to remove the Kucinich post failed .... this time.

There should not be a next time.

People who recommend a post for "the greatest" are not trying to exclude or censor.

Those who try to remove a post from "the greatest" are trying to censor.

You really don't understand the difference?

Come now.

One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to understand the difference.

[rudy23]

240. Exactly. nt

[Better Believe It]

166. It's called "Naderizing" Kucinich in order to isolate and marginalize him.

Nothing like a "swift boat" type character assassination campaign to get the job done. The DLC swift boated Ralph Nader and Democratic office holders they opposed.

[scheming daemons]

185. Nader wasn't a Democrat. He was actively trying to DEFEAT the Democratic Party...

...so yes, that makes him the enemy of this site.


Dennis Kucinich *IS* a Democrat... and is therefore worthy of general support on Democratic Underground.


This is a site for Democrats. It isn't "Green Underground" or "Independent Underground" or "Leftist Underground".


Why on earth should Ralph Nader or Cynthia McKinney NOT get hammered at Democratic Underground?

They're NOT DEMOCRATS!

[RufusTFirefly]

199. Indeed, this reveals the lies behind Dennis bashing

When Nader ran, we had an alibi. He wasn't a Democrat.

But with Dennis -- whoops! -- that excuse doesn't work. So folks have been scrambling to come up with another explanation.

Kucinich reminds us of the country we could be but aren't and of the way that we have capitulated to a corporate-centered view of the United States that would appall most of the country's founders, especially Jefferson.

Looking in the mirror can be painful. But it's an important first step. Unrecommending this thread is a great way to avoid that first step.

[Better Believe It]

215. Kucinich never participated in the character assassination campaign against Nader

Senator Bernie Sanders is a socialist and not a Democrat. Do you also think he and his supporters are enemies of DU?

Criticizing the political views and opinions of Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich is not the same thing as conducting a swift boat like character assassination campaign against someone.

Do you understand the difference?

Kucinich, McKinney and Nader are not the enemies of progressive causes.

[GreenArrow]

255. "Kucinich, McKinney and Nader are not the enemies

of progressive causes" while sadly, the DLC often is.

[Ken Burch]

251. The best way to have neutralize them would have been to embrace parts of their agenda

They had the policies the Democratic ticket SHOULD have been supporting, anyway.

We could also have done it by backing Instant Runoff Voting and proportional representation. The fact is, our party had no right to demand that progressives support it in 2000 when our party was making sure its platform was arrogantly anti-progressive.
We lost in 2000 because triangulation no longer worked. Why do you STILL refuse to accept that?

Our party never benefited from any campaigns to demonize the left. The Nineties showed that a Democratic administration in which progressives were silenced and powerless couldn't be distinguishable from a Republican administration And Dennis did more to bring Nader supporters back to this party than anyone else, so this party actually owes him respect and gratitude.

[rudy23]

241. I believe Naderizing is part of that plan to smear the left, too. I've seen a strange uptick there

--I know that's been even more common before than Dennis bashing. It seems to fit that strange pattern of orchestrated overreaction that's tipping off what I think are the paid bloggers.

[northzax]

168. people are still talking about Dennis Kucinich?

I mean besides here? why?

[G_j]

203. why?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6015277


(for example)

[chascarrillo]

209. Why do people praise someone who only discovered a woman's right to privacy once he ran for prez?

The man is a charlatan, plain and simple.

[suzie]

226. You must be DLC, whatever that means.

Because you can't think that Dennis Kucinich is a charlatan just because he changed his position on women's reproductive rights in the same moment he decided to run for President--holding that viewpoint is just unacceptable.

[rudy23]

282. It stands for Democratic Leadership Council, a group who has many stated goals that run contrary to

typically Democratic values. Mostly this is in favor of corporations, who in their mind they must cooperate with in order to maintain power.

[fascisthunter]

266. wow... you are still here

[northzax]

332. yep. still here

expecting me to be tombstoned or something? for questioning the mighty Kucinich?

[RB TexLa]

195. The DLC? You mean someone is going to accuse someone other than Karl

I mean "KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKarl rove" of something like this? How could he have so quickly lost his all powerful status among kooks? I guess he must be repairing his weather machine.

[valerief]

200. I love Kucinich. I feel like he's actually representing Americans, unlike the others in Congress. nt

[earcandle]

204. people fear Dennis's brains and if they are corrupt, no wonder!

Oh yes! Read HR676 here!
	

http://www.noodlebrain.com/110thCongressHR676.pdf

[democracy1st]

212. How could any democrat/liberal/progressive hate DK ..K& R

[suzie]

227. Because he only discovered he was pro-choice when he decided to run

for President and realized that the "progressive" constituency wouldn't adore him if he continued to espouse extreme anti-choice views?

And because that kind of hypocrisy is exactly what "progressives" always accuse other Democrats of?

[girl gone mad]

237. Maybe it was the first time he really thought about the issue on a political level..

not just a personal level. Many people are morally opposed to abortion but are pro-choice for practical reasons, such as the realization that outlawing abortion would be impractical and could lead to a higher death rate among teenage girls.

It's not a black and white world. Obama says he wants to reduce the number of abortions, which would imply that he believes there is something morally wrong with abortion.

[suzie]

307. Come on, Kucinichites would be jumping up and down

if either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama had ever espoused the anti-choice, anti-woman stances of Kucinich.

And sorry, but I'm of the same generation and relatively same age as Kucinich. To state that he never really thought about the issue on a political level is quite silly. We're of the generation who actually heard the stories about backroom abortions firsthand.

[charlie]

311. I've never heard "Kucinichites" give Al Gore grief

for a similar turnabout before his first presidential run. Not a stellar defense of Dennis' earlier stance, I know, but both have been dependably pro-choice since their conversions.

[LWolf]

335. "heard the stories"

And I'm the one who almost lost her mom at the age of 3 because of one of those backroom abortions. I adamantly support the right to choose, for better reasons than "hearing about it."

I also understand those who are uncomfortable with abortion.

I listened to his explanation. Which, btw, came well before he ever ran for president. He ran for president in '04 because people asked him to, in response to his "Prayer for America."

I'm glad he changed his thinking.

I wish more people would change their thinking about choice.

[Ken Burch]

250. Even when he was antichoice, he was more progressive than any other candidate

Why does "choice"(which I support strongly, btw)matter more than anything else on the agenda? There's no way that you can argue that Bill Clinton was a better president on women's issues than DK would've been-and he represented the view of our party's leadership in those years-be pro-choice(and half-heartedly pro-choice at that)and be right-wing on everything else(like when he betrayed every poor woman in the country by signing the punitive "welfare reform" bill and never even arguing that the whole case for that bill was built on lies.)

[suzie]

308. Hey yeah, Bill Clinton sure appointed some anti-choice

people to the Supreme Court, so they could overturn Roe v. Wade, Griswold, whatever else, didn't he?

DK would have been better than BC on women's issues despite having voted against a fairly significant thing for women--reproductive rights--all the time.

Wow. That's all I can say. Wow.

[Ken Burch]

313. Being pro-choice is meaningless if you abandon poor women

In isolation, choice is only a middle-class issue. What really matters is ending poverty and inequality. There's no way that choice justifies accepting conservatism on everything else. A conservative pro-choice pol doesn't give a damn about women. And Bill Clinton didn't.

[suzie]

336. Dennis Kucinich voted against giving funding to family planning

agencies that provide advice on abortion.

Access to family planning is a middle-class issue? Sorry, you can state the arguments about "ending poverty and inequality" as a way of justifying Dennis K's horrendous record on women's reproductive issues.

But, as a woman I'd have to say that you're simply wrong. Dennis Kucinich didn't give a damn about women. What he cares about is getting praise for being the champion of "ending poverty and inequality".

[Ken Burch]

320. In any case, Dennis moved TO the pro-choice side

If he would have been pro-choice as president, why does it even matter that he wasn't BEFORE he was president? That's a shaky argument for CONTINUING to insist to someone to Dennis' right on poverty and social justice issues(as all the other Dem candidates were in 2004 and 2008). I'm pro-choice too, it's just that that issue isn't more important than a progressive totality of all the issues.

More to the point, Dennis embraced a pro-choice position at the same time that the "mainstream" Dems were all weaseling their way away from one. You should be thankful to get someone to move IN your direction, especially since the general movement was away from it.

[suzie]

337. I don't know that any other candidates were to Dennis's right

on poverty and social justice issues in 2004. Because I don't trust someone on any issue when they change their mind overnight on such a significant one--just so it will make them more appealing to a constituency that they're very desirous of appealing to.

Dennis Kucinich is simply untrustworthy.

[rudy23]

316. And why would now be the time to get upset about that?

It's not election season.

[leftofthedial]

219. nothing new about it

[farmboxer]

221. Kucinich Tells it like it really is. He is a favorite of mine.

We need more like him.

[Rhiannon12866]

231. I've seen it and I have no clue...

IMO, DK is the greatest, championing issues that the "mainstream," won't touch because they might be controversial, starting out opposing the war in Iraq... He's been my candidate since 2003 and, since then, he's only said and done even more to make me admire and support him... :patriot:

[Norrin Radd]

232. kr

[billyoc]

234. He's got the stench of nonconformity about him, and he must be completely marginalized.

Not to put to fine a point on it.

[PHIMG]

235. A Notorious Progressive-come-lately "A-list" blogger loves to trash him too n/t

[Greyhound]

246. K&R. This thread has attracted nearly the entire DU Democratic fifth column.

I'd say you stuck a nerve with this.

Almost all of the usual suspects. One might develop a list from this single thread.

Good job.
:thumbsup:
:kick: & R

[rudy23]

283. Thnx, I agree about the list.. nt

[Raster]

285. Seconded!

[90-percent]

248. Good ole Denny

Dennis got more money from me in the 2008 campaign than Barack did.

Corporatism is wrecking this country and especially wrecking the principals it is based on.

The fact that more Congressional Democrats ARE NOT LIKE DENNIS is where the problem is. There should be over three hundred Dennis's in Congress!

Dennis fights for working people and therefore I support him...enthusiastically!

-90% Jimmy

[fascisthunter]

257. it's not really coming from Democrats

as much as it comes from Freepers posing as dems.

[saltpoint]

258. Dennis Kucinich is a peach. I hope Ohio progressives in his district

keep sending him to the Congress.

[midnight]

264. I'm a fan of Dennis Kucinich. Man is that man smart. I love that

he carries a pocket size book of the constitution around. Maybe we should put a copy of one of those in all the hotel rooms.

[Reform]

273. ah yes same old story

Much the same treatment Ron Paul got from his own party for trying to talk about real issues.
Maybe it's cause D.K wants a real air pollutant and energy plan, not this big cap and trade industry that wont do crap to get rid of it, instead only lines the pockets of powerful large conglomerate corporations.
Who knows maybe its because he has been fighting for 911 first responders to help get them medical services, i know how much some people hate that.
Or maybe it's cause he wants an audit of the federal reserve.
Yeah all that is bat shit crazy :P

[Reform]

276. D.K> FTW

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x335164

[madrchsod]

274. maybe that can`t handle the truth....

[Jennicut]

280. I love Dennis.

I don't think he will ever win the Presidency but he needs to be there to keep the rest of the Dems pulled leftward.

[LynneSin]

281. I'd like to know this. If DU is filled with right-wingers and DLC supporters who unrec everything..

how did this end up on the home page of DU

:crazy:

Dennis is not my cup of tea, however I have alot of respect for the guy. It's a shame he's not running for that open US Senate seat; however, I really like Jennifer Brunner and hope she wins it!

[S_E_Fudd]

286. When he does something stupid he is gonna get bashed...

Which occurs on a fairly regular basis...

[chill_wind]

302. Huh? "Regular basis." Please support your claim with all your examples.

You mean all these things- (quick list from downthread)?

' Single payer / end 'war on terror' / no bail-louts for banks / prosecute torture / no wiretaps / Out of NAFTA, WTO. FOR EFCA.'

I get that he's too left-leaning for middle of the roaders that don't care where the Dem party is going, just as long as it's the right color jerseys not giving a fek. We could use a lot more DK's to get anything meaningful done on all of those matters.

[S_E_Fudd]

303. Oh things like...

Voting with Republicans against the energy bill (opposing those well known toadies of the fascist right Paul Krugman, Henry Waxmon, and Al Gore)

Voting with Republicans against the SCHIP extension...

He is a singularly ineffective congressman, is not interested in governing...

[slipslidingaway]

312. Kucinich and his SCHIP vote...fighting for women and children

who had been excluded since 1996, his reason for voting NO was to highlight the exclusion.


Links and more in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5938303&mesg_id=5943354


First of all Bush had already threatened to veto the SCHIP bill...
then when language was removed from the bill which would cover legal immigrant children and pregnant women, Kucinich voted NO.

Many had been waiting since 1996, see links below, Congress finally included (2009) those who had been excluded.


"In fact, Democratic leadership has long vowed to redress the damage to which they contributed in 1996 by placing the arbitrary restrictions on legal immigrants."


...01/13/09

"...Congressional action on the popular SCHIP measure, which passed Congress with bipartisan votes twice in 2007 but died under President Bush’s veto pen, would give the incoming Obama administration a quick victory on healthcare, one of its major priorities.

...As in the 2007 measures, the increased spending on SCHIP would be fully offset by a 61-cent increase in the federal tax on cigarettes along with tax increases on other tobacco products.

By emphasizing the similarities between his new bill and the legislation that passed two years ago, Baucus seeks to set the stage for a noncontroversial, bipartisan process.

In his statement, though, Baucus implicitly acknowledged one contentious issue he did not include in his draft bill: benefits for legal immigrants..."


The bill then passes and included those who had been excluded since 1996.

Kucinich votes YES and the bill...

"-Expands coverage to children of legal immigrants and pregnant legal immigrants (Sec. 211)."

[S_E_Fudd]

323. He uses his congressional seat as a soapbox...

He has no iinterest in getting his hands dirty by doing the work that is necessary to get things passed...

[slipslidingaway]

315. G-8 Failure Reflects US Failure on Climate Change: Hansen advocates carbon fee-and-dividend

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6032786&mesg_id=6032786

by James Hansen

"It didn't take long for the counterfeit climate bill known as Waxman-Markey to push back against President Obama's agenda. As the president was arriving in Italy for his first Group of Eight summit, the New York Times was reporting that efforts to close ranks on global warming between the G-8 and the emerging economies had already tanked:

The world's major industrial nations and emerging powers failed to agree Wednesday on significant cuts in heat-trapping gases by 2050, unraveling an effort to build a global consensus to fight climate change, according to people following the talks.

<edit>

With a workable climate bill in his pocket, President Obama might have been able to begin building that global consensus in Italy. Instead, it looks as if the delegates from other nations may have done what 219 U.S. House members who voted up Waxman-Markey last month did not: critically read the 1,400-page American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 and deduce that it's no more fit to rescue our climate than a V-2 rocket was to land a man on the moon..."

[S_E_Fudd]

324. Wow..imagine that...

You found someone else that didn't like the bill...

Kucinich ALWAYS finds an excuse not to do his job.., he would much rather have the issue than actually make progress..

And curiously that always seems to put him on the same side as Republicans...

You know...Paul Krugman is hardly one to shy away from expressing his opinion...he thinks its a good bill...

Henry Waxman, who up to now has been DU's favorite congressman (except St. Dennis perhaps)...thinks its a good bill...

Al Gore...who is apparently is now DU's new corporate stooge whipping boy...he thinks its a good bill...

Guess what...it isn't pperfect...but these people are willing to move forward even if they don't get eveyting they want...

Kucinich is the George McLellan of politics...will not move an inch until everything is 100% to his liking...

May get him a cadre of devoted followers...but makes hima very ineffective legislator!!!

[slipslidingaway]

326. That is just BS, he has worked on the Progressive Caucus

outline for minimum requirements for the public option, he is not sitting on the sidelines, even though he prefers a not for profit system.

It has become a right wing, and sometimes corporate Dem talking point, because he does not give in as easily as some...Iraq war, Patriot Act, FISA, China Free Trade (MFN) etc.

The carbon offset market will make some rich people, but it will not help the people who have to live in the areas of pollution or those who are seeing the lands around them being bought up to offset the polution in another part of the world.



The Carbon Connection - New documentary examines the impact of carbon trading

http://www.carbontradewatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=46

"Two communities affected by one new global market – the trade in carbon dioxide. In Scotland a town has been polluted by oil and chemical companies since the 1940s. In Brazil local people's water and land is being swallowed up by destructive monoculture eucalyptus tree plantations. Both communities now share a new threat.

As part of the deal to reduce greenhouse gases that cause dangerous climate change, major polluters can now buy carbon credits that allow them to pay someone else to reduce emissions instead of cutting their own pollution..."

[S_E_Fudd]

327. Name a single important piece of legislation he had a hand in passing...

There are none...

In fact cap and trade has worked, and worked well..here in the US...

But Greenpeace has declared that it “cannot support this bill in its current state.” And some influential environmental figures — most notably James Hansen, the NASA scientist who first drew the public’s attention to global warming — oppose the whole idea of cap and trade, arguing for a carbon tax instead.


I’m with Mr. Gore. The legislation now on the table isn’t the bill we’d ideally want, but it’s the bill we can get — and it’s vastly better than no bill at all.

One objection — the claim that carbon taxes are better than cap and trade — is, in my view, just wrong. In principle, emission taxes and tradable emission permits are equally effective at limiting pollution. In practice, cap and trade has some major advantages, especially for achieving effective international cooperation.

Not to put too fine a point on it, think about how hard it would be to verify whether China was really implementing a promise to tax carbon emissions, as opposed to letting factory owners with the right connections off the hook. By contrast, it would be fairly easy to determine whether China was holding its total emissions below agreed-upon levels.

...

Now, these handouts wouldn’t undermine the policy’s effectiveness. Even when polluters get free permits, they still have an incentive to reduce their emissions, so that they can sell their excess permits to someone else. That’s not just theory: allowances for sulfur dioxide emissions are allocated to electric utilities free of charge, yet the cap-and-trade system for SO2 has been highly successful at controlling acid rain.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/opinion/18krugman.html

[Greyhound]

338. Elmer is back! Congratulations!

{Here's a hint}; try to change your grammatical style and spelling errors, it makes it harder to spot you...

[Bryn]

293. I am a Dennis Kucinich supporter

I was baffled by lack of support for him here on DU when he first ran in the primaries. Worst ... they were calling him "too short with large ears" ... never once looked at his ability, his character, his spine, his courage..the way he stood up for us the people. What is "democratic" here exactly? Or many DUers just not understand our much needed leadership with a strong backbone for our democratic party? What is it? Pray tell?

I am with you on this one.

[grahamhgreen]

297. Single payer / end 'war on terror' / no bail-louts for banks / prosecute torture / no wiretaps / etc

Out of NAFTA, WTO. For EFCA.

Those are his actual positions.

Name calling is fun, but, what's wrong with that?

[earcandle]

305. Just saw Dennis on MNSBC and he was really supportive of Obama and positive about change in

health reform and public options. 

He said there isn't a bill that is chosen yet.

I like his myself!

Oh yes! Read it here!
	

http://www.noodlebrain.com/110thCongressHR676.pdf

get in touch with the democratic process.
google who are the reps and senators of your state
get their PHONE NUMBERS 
send those to everyone on your email list with the link to
HR676
so they can read it for themselves and TELL them that they
MUST call to make a difference.

And what a difference that can make.
Only calls seem to matter, so get on the phone so we can 
get these people who don't care about us exposed and force
them to serve us or to get out.

I mean really, we have to worry about a CDC and pharm industry
making substances out to kill us!  Do we really want all of
this
to continue?  The FDA does not inspect these drugs and even
the commercials for pharms tell us how harmful they are while
showing visuals with themes of safety and health....

what kind of stupidity has taken over the American mind?

Get on the fucking phone already. Your country and OBama need
you to do this, or it won't happen.

Why should we, who are told we are the greatest and wealthiest
nation in the world, not have healthcare included in the
services
provided by OUR FUCKING TAX DOLLARS>... dudes, learn how
government
works.  It is there to provide us with services.  We are not
being
served when our tax dollars pay to have our sons and daughters
kill
people in other countries, but that is what we stupidly give
permission
for when WE DON'T CALL THEM.

so call. already.  

[Duval]

306. Kucinich is right on target. I have

always supported him, and he was essentially bashed by our Corporate Media the way they bashed Howard Dean. The DLC is behind the times, and I hope we won't have to spend tons of money and wait for months before we can finally get a Democratic Party that is united and represents the people, not the big money interests.:kick: :dem:

[ProudDad]

318. Because he's usually right

and they "Can't Handle the Truth"...



:rofl:

[PeaceNikki]

325. He's not my cuppa tea. I don't viciously attack him.

But I don't think he's a solid candidate and I can't take him seriously.

[mmonk]

331. To answer your question, yes. It always has been their plan.

However, Dennis is still popular here. The detractors just post dispropotionate to their numbers on him.