If DU were around when Clinton was President...

[Curtland1015]

Would people have come down on him as much as they are against Obama?

I'm not saying President Obama is doing a perfect job. But it seems like quite a few people have already passed judgment and lost all hope in the man, despite him only being in power for six months.

I'm not saying you shouldn't complain about the guy if he's doing something you disagree with. You certainly should. But at the same time, think back to when Clinton came to power. The economy was in the dumps. Bush had made a mess of things, and it took more than six months for Clinton to exact change. I think it's unfair to condemn the man for not following through on all his campaign promises when he isn't even finished with his first YEAR.

Bush II has made this country WAY worse off than his father ever did, yet just a little ways in, it seems like many have already lost all faith in the man.

Hell, I'm not happy with everything he's said and every direction he's taken, but I am willing to give the man a little more time to find his voice as the most powerful man in the world before I write him off.

Well, that's about it. I just needed to vent a little. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't raise their voice if they see something they don't agree with. I'm just saying it's a little premature to "abandon all hope".

[zbdent]

1. one word ...

NAFTA ...

[JHB]

3. plus...

removal of barriers to corporate consolidation in media and finance.

[mod mom]

53. plus...

financial ties to Jackson Stephens

[Soylent Brice]

21. !!

:rofl:

for real.

[sandnsea]

2. People complained about Clinton then

He got a lot of grief from Democrats over welfare reform, and a lot of other policies. I don't think it would have started in 6 months, but I think for a lot of people, the centrist bullshit of the 90s has contributed to the lack of confidence in change now. I understand it. I just think some people need to chill, others need to realize this is what they would have gotten with Hillary anyway, and others need to recognize they need to move in order to live in leftwing utopia.

[scheming daemons]

4. Yes.... DU would've been brutal to the big dawg.....

He was the one who first put in DADT.

He was the one who signed DOMA.

He was the first one to fail at getting Health Care Reform done.



He was a GREAT president..... but the "progressives" on DU would've skewered him completely.


In fact, a big reason why the GOP overwhelmed us in the 1994 elections is because the "progressive" left stayed home. The Contract on America was as much their fault as anyone's.

They let the perfect become the enemy of the good. And since Clinton wasn't PERFECT in their eyes, they abandoned him and let the pure evil that is Newt Gingrich take control of the agenda in Washington. And we're living with the consequences today.

[RainDog]

12. why do you blame liberals for being liberal

when, when republicans are in office, they unapologetically make policy based upon their ideological beliefs? - and they get votes because of this.

however, if a liberal expects a democrat to actually DO what they say they will do, it is somehow the voter's fault for using the one bit of power they have to express their opinion on the decisions made?

and the sad thing is... after democrats pander to conservatives over and over again, those conservatives continue to attack no matter what. Democrats might as well do the right thing since the DLC way pisses off liberals but doesn't win the religious right or the Limbaugh reactionaries anyway.

in fact, if democrats governed as liberals, they might find more people (because so many don't even bother to vote in what they see as a one-party corporate system) would actually go to the polls and vote.

[Curtland1015]

13. I made a topic last week about just that.

Democrats are, in general, WAY to acommodating to the right.

The thing is, the actually say they will be. EVERY politician says they'll "reach across the aisle". Of course, Dems are the only ones that actually mean it. So when they take the other side's opinion in mind (honoring their campaign promise...) the right still skewers them for being "too liberal", while the left skewers them for not being liberal enough.

So, I think you're right, they should just say "screw the right" and push through what they want while they can, so at least ONE side will be happy.

[RainDog]

16. in retrospect, the right wingers seems to be happy to draw unemployment insurance

and to have medicare to pay for granny's health care.

they're just too stupid to recognize what is to their benefit at the time that these policies are enacted because, for whatever reason (and I think religious brainwashing plays into it with the anti-commie crap that comes along with that whole mindset) too many American people vote against their own self interests.

It was a real eye-opener for me when I learned that JFK had to push through unemployment insurance in the U.S. over republican objections when every other western democracy had this program since WWI.

For 60 years, SIXTY YEARS - Americans did not have the most basic protection against the most abject poverty if they lost a job due to poor management, fraud or simply bad luck that every other western democracy had long implemented.

we see the same thing now with health care.

[scheming daemons]

15. Clinton was what he was. By letting the perfect become the enemy of the good....

...liberals let something WORSE take charge for 12 years. Newt and company.


Obama was "good" for liberals... not "perfect". And because of that, liberals allowed something much much worse to take hold of government power.


When you have a President that is 75% on your side... beating the hell out of him over the other 25% just makes the opposition grow stronger.

That's what the hard left doesn't understand.


By killing Obama over the handful of things that he is NOT a perfect liberal on, the left is empowering conservatives.


It's 100% or nothing. And that's a bad place to be, because you'll NEVER have a President that gives you 100% of what you want. And if you focus on the places where you disagree, you'll end up with another Bush administration...and that 0%.

[RainDog]

17. bullshit

bullshit bullshit bullshit apologies for pandering to the right wing.

you FAIL to acknowledge that democrats do not gain votes by this pandering. you miss the entire point and continue to blame liberals for expecting the democratic candidate to actual govern based upon the values they claim to hold.

I am really sick of this "blame the voter" crap. If democrats want votes then they need to answer to the voters. that's why it's supposed to be a representative democracy and not the shell game we currently experience.

[blm]

20. CLINTON let fascists take charge when he deepsixed BCCI report and all its outstanding matters

throughout the 90s.

WE helped him do it by NOT getting into the streets and rebelling against Clinton's decision to side with secrecy and privilege of the powerful elite over the America's right to open government accountable to the people.

[Clintonista2]

22. Blm I need your help! My microwave is part of a CIA plot to assassinate me!

And Donald Duck is sending signals to my brain!

[blm]

24. You have a strange way of stating YOU believe BCCI matters were concluded to the nation's benefit.

If you want to refute what I wrote, put on your big boy pants and do it.

[Clintonista2]

25. So you're not going to help me?

I'm fairly certain Donald is working for the BCCI! Only you can stop them!

[blm]

28. Ask your babysitter to help you.

And, maybe if you perform well during potty training, your babysitter will read you the BCCI report.

[Clintonista2]

29. She's in on the plot!

Along with the CIA, Mcdonalds, and my Italian next door neighbors!

[Forkboy]

35. Well, hopefully you'll be abducted by those in it and we can be spared your posts.

[Clintonista2]

36. They're coming for you next!

[Forkboy]

39. A long as they get you first.

[blm]

50. Mr Fork..do these exchanges sound familiar? No...couldn't be...THAT poster was tombstoned.

.

[Forkboy]

51. There's a certain familiarity to it, yes.

[subcomhd]

40. STOP IT!!!!!!!!

OMG, you have had me laughing so hard I couldn't catch my breath. Seriously, thank you.

[RainDog]

30. yeah, funding Osama bin Laden and supplying nuclear components to Pakistan is funny shit

blm's complaint, and that of many others is, in fact, very similar to the current complaint that the current president is covering for criminal acts to the detriment of this nation. when no one is held accountable for their criminal actions, these criminals continue to hold power and continue to do harm to this nation and the world.

anyone who wants to read about the problem of bcci can start here-

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/

Time reporters Beatty and Gwynne did an excellent job covering the problems BCCI created - and the above link notes the problem for southern politicians and the way they were co-opted by BCCI money. maybe that's where your sarcasm stems from - the wish to discredit someone in order to cover for corruption.

But the essential point is that BCCI funneled money to terrorist organizations and provided a way for Pakistan to buy nuclear components supplied by Bush I that, we now see, is an all-around negative for the world since that country was then and is now highly unstable.

It was a problem when Iran-Contra was not fully vetted. It is a problem that the war criminals of the Bush II administration are not held accountable and that we have lost international status and power because both parties think it's politically expedient to pretend our treaties are not obligations of the highest order (which, oh yeah, isn't exactly constitutional, either.)

A lot of Americans are sick of the corruption and see it as the greatest problem in this nation's ability to govern effectively. Maybe if Clinton had kept his dick in his pants he would have been more effective in holding republicans accountable for their actions. or maybe he's just corrupt.

[Clintonista2]

31. Actually, Blm's tinfoil hat conspiracies go beyond the BCCI

Like her claim that Clinton carpet bombed detroit with cocaine, which you will undoubtedly agree with.

[RainDog]

32. are you referring to the fact-based reports from Gary Webb about the CIA importing cocaine?

because his reports for the San Jose Mercury News were correct and, even tho Time, etc. had to acknowledge this, they never apologized to Webb for smearing him and destroying his career.

Robert Parry, nominated for a Pulitzer, former Newsweek reporter, was also a casualty of the war on truth about activities from the Bush I years. He's written some powerful things online about the way in which Webb was railroaded.

We see this same whorishness now with the big media outlets in regard to the lies about the invasion of Iraq by Bush II. Why some "pundits" still have jobs is beyond me since they were wrong, continue to be wrong, refuse to admit they were wrong and yet big media pretends they have something worthwhile to say.

but, yes, the reality is that the CIA frogmen were discovered smuggling cocaine into America as part of the whole Iran-Contra operation.

No wonder the right wing is so big on the war on drugs. They want to keep their profit margins high.

[Clintonista2]

34. And what does Clinton have to do with that?

[blm]

38. Was he governor of Arkansas when Poppy Bush's cocaine dumping operations were using Mena airport?

You believe a governor of a small state was so unaware that he never noticed the massive drugrunning that was going on there and neither did any of his law enforcement officials. I don't.

You believe that as President with access to relevant documents kept secret by Reagan and Bush, Clinton handled the outstanding matters in BCCI that included IranContra and CIA drugrunning that also funded global terror networks, in an open and accountable way that benefited this nation. I don't and the records back me up.

[subcomhd]

41. Clinton Chronicles

You get your info from jerry falwell?

[blm]

42. No. They distorted what went on to pin blame on Clinton. It was Poppy Bush's operation and

Clinton looked the other way, as any ambitious governor of a small state would do, especially if he agreed with Reagan and Bush's IranContra policies.



Why pretend any of this was informed by Falwell's BS when it clearly came from narco-terrorism hearings in the senate and Gary Webb's Pulitzer prize winning report?

Why the need to conflate the two?

If you don't think Poppy Bush was dumping tons of cheap IranContra cocaine into American cities in the 80s and used Mena Airport as a hub, then say so.

[blm]

45. SO? No explanation of WHY you conflate Poppy's covert IranContra dealings with Falwell's BS claims

that Clinton was the ringleader?

[blm]

33. Prove it. I said Clinton looked the other way while GHWBush dumped cheap IranContra cocaine

into black communities all over the country using Mena Airport in Arkansas as the hub for the operation.

CIA documents presented in a courtcase in 1998 proved that operation was going on. Gary Webb's investigative report about the CIA's cocaine dumping was proved to be right.

YOU use delusion to back up your narrative because that's all ya got.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. That is not at all true. It is, in fact, a fucking lie.

Clinton spent his first two years dealing with the fucked up Bush economy, not signing off on Republican social agendas. Even DADT, in '93, was a qualified success for him - you might remember that it was, at the time, considered an improvement over the then current status of gays and a step in the direction of equality. It took literally years for it to be demonstrated how full of loopholes it was, but the fact is gays in the military are NO worse off under DADT today than they were before DADT. It was a compromise which actually changed nothing.

The real problem was that after 12 years of Republican presidents, too many Democrats underestimated the importance of off-year elections at the same time that the republicans were whipping up the religious right. I'm talking about the 'third way' Democrats - the fucking DLC and blue dogs, who thought that having a Dem in the WH made all the difference. It was NOT the progressives who stayed home. Blaming '94 on progressives...

I AM ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SPEECHLESS AT THAT FUCKING DLC TALKING POINT.

The perfect may be the enemy of the good but the DLC is the enemy of the Democratic Party.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. umm yes.

[WI_DEM]

6. probably even worse.

[surrealAmerican]

26. ... maybe even MUCH worse.

Face it, Clinton was much more conservative than Obama. People here would have been up in arms (figuratively) about welfare reform, and rightly so.

[subcomhd]

44. yes

I have caught so much shit on DU for saying Obama is more progressive than Clinton.

[johnfunk]

7. You would've seen a BIG pushback against media and the GOP on the Lewinsky flap, criticism of NAFTA

Hindsight is 20/20: we now see that DU, since its inception, has been enormously more influential as a nexus for organization than the hubristic, self-congratulatory Free Republic ever was. While FR was pretending that its power and influence were growing (when in fact they were nothing but an online meat puppet for the most reprehensible special interest stringpullers on the harc right), DU changed and kept up with the real issues confronting average Americans, proving to be far more responsive to change than FR (which still seems trapped in 1980).

[johnfunk]

8. ... and (I almost forgot)...

... given the skills of a number of regular DU contributors, you might well have seen a number of GOP horndogs -- and a number of Clinton's abusive attackers -- outed far more quickly as the Lewinsky flap progressed.

[Curtland1015]

9. Well, that's very likely true! Ah... if political blogging was in full force back then.

*Day dreams*

[RainDog]

10. yes

and when the "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is" moment came along, people would ream him online for this stupid legalism.

and just like then, people would say he should simply say it's really not the business of the right wing to sniff people's underwear (or their blue dresses.)

you must not be aware of how many democrats REALLY didn't like Clinton's DLC ways when he was in office. quite a bit of the negativity toward Hillary during the primary for people I know stemmed from her association with this same group that, even now, obstructs reform that so many Americans want.

I thought Obama was going to be better than Clinton. I'm still waiting to see that.

Frankly, I am so disappointed in the way that Obama shat away the early opportunities he had (because of the negatives the conservatives had when leaving power) by trying to suck up to the religious right, Goldman Sachs, the torture branch of the CIA, big pharma and insurance that I don't even care to hear what he has to say anymore because, based upon his actions vs his campaign, the words don't match the actions.

Obama has made big mistakes by refusing to listen to people like Krugman and Steiglitz on the economy. he's made big mistakes by allowing bad debt to remain unresolved/unaccounted for. he's made big mistakes by pissing off the base by pandering to the religious right.

Democrats can't win if liberals stay home or vote for a third party candidate. Independents are not too happy with the handling of the financial crisis...which will continue to be a crisis until banks have to own up to their debt and bad decisions. As a woman, I take offense at his appt of an anti-choicer - in an office I find both unnecessary and offensive (faith-based b.s.) and, given the trajectory he seems to be on, I still wish, just as I wished during the Bush years, that I could immigrate to a liberal democracy because I am sick of the intrusion of religion in my govt.

[bluestateguy]

11. There would have been a full scale rebellion when he signed the welfare bill in 1996

That would have been really ugly.

[blm]

19. There SHOULD have been fullscale rebellion when he DEEPSIXED BCCI report for GHWBush in 1993.

.

[Redneck Socialist]

14. Worse

Many people consider Clinton the best republican president we've ever had.

[dsc]

18. I lived in the gay area of Chicago in early 1993

and yes, gays had huge problems with him in the aftermath of DADT so I think he would be compained about too.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

27. I used to say Clinton was the best Republican president EVER, lol!

I so confused one not very political person they actually thought he was a Republican. :P

Not that everything he did was wrong by me, it wasn't. It just that things like NAFTA, DADT and DOMA really stuck in my craw.

We'd have eaten him alive here! Yet, during Bushes reign I'd have given anything to have Clinton back. Even with all his warts.

:shrug:

[snooper2]

37. We would be reading/posting all the juicy details :)

:rofl:

(PROSECUTOR). ... Now directing your attention back to February 28th, 1997, the day that you wore the blue cocktail dress. ... You mentioned that you believe that there could be semen on it. Could you describe what you did with the president that led you to believe that?

A. We were in the bathroom and - can I close my eyes so I don't have to ...

Q. Well, you have to speak up. That's the only ...

A. Okay. We were in the bathroom and I was performing oral sex. I'm sorry, this is embarrassing. And usually he doesn't want to - he didn't want to (ejaculate).

Q. Ejaculate?

A. Yes. And this has sort of been a subject that we had talked about many times before and he was always saying it had issues to do with trust and not knowing me well enough at first and then not feeling right about things, and not that he said this but I took away from that to sort of mean that maybe in his mind if he didn't (ejaculate) then maybe ... he didn't need to feel guilty about that, that maybe ... that was easier for him to rationalize.

And it was on this occasion ... that after we had engaged in oral sex for a while and he stopped me as he normally did, I said to him, you know - this is so embarrassing, I'm sorry. I said to him, you know, I really - I want to make you (ejaculate). ...

Q. Okay. Why don't you just describe the position that you were in once he had tried to stop you. What did you do that led you to believe (that) might get semen on your dress?

A. I told him that I really cared about him and he told me that he didn't want to get addicted to me and he didn't want me to get addicted to him, and we embraced at that point. ... It's just a little tiny spot down here and a little tiny spot up here and ...

Q. ... When you're pointing down here, you mean sort of your right lower hip area?

A. ... I don't know if it was my right or left, but lower hip area.

Q. Okay. And the chest area would be the second place that you thought you might have gotten some?

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. And is that from when you ... did actually continue to perform oral sex on him later?

A. I believe so.

Q. Did you ever see something that you thought was semen on the dress that led you to conclude that?

A. The next time I went to wear the dress.

Q. So at the time you didn't notice anything on the dress?

A. I don't believe so.

Q. Okay. What happened then the next time you wore the dress that led you to conclude that?

A. ... I think I wore the dress out to dinner that night, so which is why I'm not sure that that's what it is. ... So it could be spinach dip or something. ...

... I really don't remember when it was the next time I went to wear the dress, but I gained weight so I couldn't wear the dress and it didn't fit.

... At that point I noticed it and I kind of thought, "Oh, this is dirty, it needs to get cleaned." And then I remembered that I had worn it the last time I saw the president, and I believe it was at that point that I thought to myself, "Oh, no." ...

Q. ... Why did you tell Linda that you thought there was semen on the dress?

A. I think it just sort of came up in conversation somehow ... as kind of this funny, gross thing. And then the next time she was at my house I still couldn't fit into the dress and believe that I said to her, "Oh, look, you want to see this? You know, this is what I was talking about."

... But I just want to say because I know everybody here reads the newspapers and listens to TV that I didn't keep this dress as a souvenir. ... I was going to clean it. I was going to wear it again.

...

[bvar22]

43. You don't understand.

It is not about the person.

It IS about The Policy.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Winterblues]

46. What specific Promises did Clinton make and then fail to keep?

Transparent government, following the rule of law, accountability, One brigade a month, Change we can believe in,.. He did not fullfill his Health Care plan but I know of nothing else.

[blm]

47. To vigorously investigate Iraqgate. Iraqgate headlines helped Clinton win, yet, when he took office

what happened?

John Hogan submitted a report in 1996 that was a whitewash. In every case it examined, the report concluded there had been no violations of law. And in a classified addendum eventually made public the intelligence community and the executive branch were exonerated of having "illegally armed Iraq," despite extensive evidence of intelligence community involvement unearthed by the Gonzalez investigation and the U.S. Customs Service.

Iraqgate was another piece of BCCI, just like IranContra. Poppy Bush knew exactly what he was doing when Jackson Stephens bankrolled his boy Bill Clinton's presidential primary campaign.

Read Clinton's book and maybe you can tell us how Clinton resolved all these outstanding matters to your satifaction.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

48. Have you *SEEN* people speak about Clinton? They lump him in with Bush and Reagan.

[noamnety]

49. Some DUers would have come down hard on him

for NAFTA, for gutting welfare under the guise of "reforming" it, for Plan Colombia, for starving a half million Iraqi children, for drug wars that contributed to an explosion of the incarceration as a business plan for the US, for DOMA, etc.

And most of the DUers would have whined that people complaining about a half million dead children as US policy were "naysayers."

[Sebastian Doyle]

52. When he was wrong, absolutely.

NAFTA, DADT, DOMA, and the FAUX Noise Enabling Act of 1996, just to name a few.

[B Calm]

54. I still to this day say Dan Burton, Henry Hyde and Helen Chenoweth

committed perjury when they said their marriage vows to GOD!

[scarletwoman]

55. Three words: President Al Gore.

I will always regret defending Clinton against impeachment. If we had let him go down we would have had Al Gore for president. That might have been a very good thing. At least it might have made it harder for GWB to win the election in 2000.

sw