Lance Armstrong? Hero, villain, or something in between?

[Jackeens]

No problem if this is moved to the sports forum, but I just think the Lance Armstrong story transcends sport??

I'll own up, after reading 'From Lance to Landis: Inside the American Doping Controversy at the Tour de France' and newspaper articles by the author, David Walsh, my gut feeling is that Armstrong is the biggest sporting fraud of this or any other time.

:hide:

Saying that alone might well see this thread zapped, so I'll say no more....even though I'd love to. If it IS zapped, I understand.

What's the big deal? Well, Lance Armstrong's success has been portrayed as an inspiration to recovering cancer sufferers - look what he achieved after battling back from cancer. If that success was achieved through determination, spirit and hard work, great. An absolute inspiration. But if it was achieved dishonestly, in sporting terms, is that not the cruellest of deceits?

I'll be honest, I've yet to meet a European sports freak (like me) who believes in him, and I haven't met many Americans who don't. His supporters say Europeans are bitter about his success...frankly, that's horse manure.

I know, lots of you won't care one way or another about Armstrong, but those who have taken an interest in his story - what do you think?

[MADem]

1. Other--I cannot even hazard a guess. I have no idea. NT

[Sebastian Doyle]

2. The guy was friends with Chimpy

That alone seriously calls his credibility into question.

[Jakes Progress]

22. I see lack of information

never keeps someone from posting.

[niceypoo]

3. Last time he won the Tour

He was interviewed afterward and started whining about 'Freedom Fries' and 'The French'

He is a right wing, Limbaugh listening, tool

[Jackeens]

4. LOL, that's true - and I'm certain it has coloured my judgement.

:toast:

[LostInAnomie]

7. He seemed pretty Democratic during our presidential primaries.

He went riding with John Edwards in Iowa.

I wouldn't read too much into any of his anti-French comments. He has about as much reason to dislike the French and their media as anyone.

[niceypoo]

34. His anti-French comments were right wing talking points

There is a big difference between right wing talking points and reality

[Jakes Progress]

37. Information lacking.

I certainly hope your don't glean your political information as poorly as you sop up sports gossip and lies. If so, Faux news would be your favorite source.

[Gabi Hayes]

5. ask Cheryl Crow

[iris27]

31. +1

(though, it's Sheryl)

[Jakes Progress]

38. jackeens.

You are usually smarter than this. You are reading a Euro-press gossip dump.

Read up on cycling a little more. I know the sensationalist press is more exciting, but it is less reliable than a bill-o report. And more disreputable.

If Lance has managed to fool the French and world doping tests for all these years under the scrutiny that he has been subjected to, he would be the world's greatest chemist. He would be able to do what no other doctor or athlete has been able to do.

Please stop reading trash and believing it.

[Clear Blue Sky]

6. He's been tested a gazillion times, and hasn't failed a single test.

[LostInAnomie]

8. That is true.

You can be sure that the Tour De France tests and retests all of his samples repeatedly.

[Jackeens]

9. Well, that's disputed.

eg: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2140893

and

http://www.tdfblog.com/2005/08/lequipe_story_a.html

And that book I mentioned is fairly insistent that he DID fail tests.

[MajorChode]

39. He has never failed a test

The L'Equipe allegations were about samples that allegedly belonged to Armstrong frozen in 1999 when tests for the alleged substance weren't even available. So it's quite impossible to fail something they didn't even have a test for at the time.
Furthermore the UCI and the WADA conducted an independant investigation in the matter which cleared Armstrong completely, so you're simply repeating old stories that have already been well debunked.
http://velonews.com/article/9932

The book you mentioned is about as believable as a Kitty Kelly biography.

[Obamanaut]

10. I believe that the people who dislike him the most, who think that he

has not accomplished what he has without 'enhancements' are the same kind of people, if not actually the same ones, who are afflicted with nearly terminal wealth envy.

"They have more stuff than I do, and it isn't fair" kind of song. Never mind that they may have worked many more hours each day, and worked harder during those hours - it just isn't fair.

"He must have taken drugs to be able to do what he did." Horsesqueeze! It's all just envy.

[Fumesucker]

16. You are an even better remote dignostician than Bill Frist..

You don't even need a video to tell what people are thinking, you know by some form of intercontinental telepathic osmosis.

I stand in awe of your psychic powers.

[Obamanaut]

19. I think this unscientific poll asked for an opinion. I gave one. It is

truly a shame that mine may differ from someone else's. Another example of "He doesn't agree with me. It's not fair!"

Life can be a bitch sometime. I appreciate your awe. It is well deserved.

[Fumesucker]

21. You basically said that *everyone* who thinks Armstrong may have doped is jealous.

Some people are that simple but by no means all are.

Motivations, even our own, can be notoriously difficult to ascertain, to believe you can accurately tell the motivations of people you have never met is the height of arrogance and folly.

Edited to add: The poll had nothing to do with the motivations of those who may think Armstrong was doping, it was about your own opinion on whether or not he was doping.

[Obamanaut]

What I said was, and this time I will replace a comma (.) with (and)

I believe that the people who dislike him the most AND who think that he
has not accomplished what he has without 'enhancements'...

Some may not like him because he is white, or American, or doesn't have a contract with Trek, or is a (insert group name here) BUT the ones who dislike him the most AND...

As the Patrick Swayze character in Road House said, "Opinions vary." The poll asked for one, I gave one, you disagree, I really don't care. You know my opinion. Disregard it if you wish. Or place it somewhere such that it doesn't bother you.

[Fumesucker]

26. But you never gave your opinion on Armstrong as the OP specifically asked..

You opined on the motivations of others, something that was not asked for at all.

I neither like nor dislike Armstrong, don't know enough about him to have an emotional reaction, I'm anything but a fan of professional sports.

But I do like to bicycle, my avatar is my actual recumbent bike, that's why I read the OP in the first place.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that Armstrong had been doping, I do know a little bit about high level bicycling and it's as viciously competitive as any sport in the world.

[Obamanaut]

29. From the poll - other(details) In post 10 I opine that

the people who believe that he is using enhancements believe that because of envy. I believe that he has not. I have no scientific proof. Some people believe in a heaven, and it is their belief sans proof.

On a good day on my EasyRacer EZ1 recumbent (low end of recumbents) I can average 14 mph for about 10 miles. I have an EZ3 (delta trike) with a trailer that I use for errands, with an even slower average. Stage 5 averaged something like 25+ mph for the 113 miles of that stage (that's the number IIRC) and to me that is awesome.

I have no proof of drugs, pro or con. It is what I believe. Some believe many things without proof. I think our justice system even uses that. OJ was acquitted, yet many believe he was guilty.

Now do what you will, I will respond no further.

[Fumesucker]

43. My 'bent is a bikeE.. also a low end machine..

I'm nearly sixty and can average 13.2 mph for ten miles and am still getting stronger, I started riding again in the spring this year and expect to be up to your average by the middle of the fall given my current rate of progress.

I think you are wrong about many people's motivation because there are a lot of us out here who simply don't care about money as long as we have enough to get by, I know I don't. If I cared about money I'd have spent more time accumulating more, but I think there are very few people who lie on their deathbed and wish they'd spent more time at the office.

Recall the lesson in "A Christmas Carol", Scrooge learned that bringing happiness to others was superior to any amount of mere money.

[Jackeens]

18. So no worries about giving bullshit hope to young cancer sufferers? It's all about money?

[Obamanaut]

24. The man does give hope to young, and not so young, cancer

sufferers. He has survived. He overcame. He has excelled. That can give awesome hope.

And money is important. He has sponsors. The team (and he himself) gets prize money and endorsements. And the money allows him to continue to excel.

[MicaelS]

11. Hero

Why is it horse manure? And yes, I think Europeans, especially the French, ARE bitter about his success.

[Jackeens]

15. So why didn't they obsess about Greg LeMond?

[Obamanaut]

25. LeMond won three. There were endorsement contracts. There

was a contract with Trek for his line of bicycles. There is the line of LeMond racing bicycles. And there is an ongoing dispute between the two of them, according to various publications.

But perhaps the level of obsession is different due in part to the cancer issue combined with the number of wins. Can't speak to that, just a guess in spite of the awesomeness attributed to me by another poster.

[Sophie-Helene]

12. Lance Armstrong? Hero, villain, or something in between?

I've read up on steroids and cheating in professional sports; specifically baseball and track and field. I know that the cheating is always ahead of the testing technology. I'm also aware that professional cycling is one of the dirtiest sports around. I would guess that every single one of the Tour de France competitors is cheating. Including Mr. Armstrong. I have no proof. Just my two cents.

[Jennicut]

35. Very dirty, blood doping is a huge problem right now.

[mitchum]

13. None of the above; a guy who rides a bicycle for a living

[jakefrep]

14. I have absolutely no doubt....

...that in the course of dealing with his cancer, Lance Armstrong took drugs that would be considered "performance-enhancing" by sporting authorities. I'm not OK with denying what would be legitimate medical treatment for anyone else to a professional athlete.

It's up to the anti-doping quacks to prove Lance Armstrong has done anything wrong. So far, they've failed.

[Jackeens]

17. One of the allegations in the book

He admitted to his doctors that he had used performance-enhancing drugs....long before his illness.

[miyazaki]

20. I like Greg LeMond's version of these affairs.

Never liked that other prick.

[Jakes Progress]

23. Now there's a prick.

I met him. He's sour and bitter. He's jealous as hell. It was very obvious.

[miyazaki]

32. ha, I believe that too. n/t

[MajorChode]

40. I agree

LeMond has a lot of issues. His cycling career was probably cut short due the shooting accident and other cyclists who were doping at the time. Much of what he's done since then has turned into failure. Now that Armstrong has far eclipsed his accomplishments, he's not in demand very much anymore.

First he accused Armstrong of doping, then he apologized, then he accused him again, and apologized again. The man is truly a piece of work. I idolized him many years ago, but certainly not today.

[Berry Cool]

27. There are various reasons people have for not linking Armstrong, if they don't.

Keith Olbermann, for example, will never forget that Armstrong crossed picket lines of striking actors in order to do a TV commercial, after promising he would not do so.

This especially annoyed Olbermann not only because he's generally pro-union, but because he had an acting friend (not a wealthy one) who he knew was losing money during the strike and his family was suffering as a result. It bothered him that his friend was suffering by striking and Armstrong came in and did a TV commercial. The real killer was that he had said he wouldn't do it, and then he did it.

Olbermann is also not one to believe that once you've had cancer, you deserve a free pass to be any kind of asshole you want. I am inclined to agree with him on that point. I also believe people with cancer need more than "inspiration"--they need decent health care, for one thing.

Inspiration is cheap. Real help costs money.

[BoneDaddy]

28. Is there an area for those who dont give a shit?

just curious

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Other. Celebrity jock uses/doesn't use drugs. Big deal.

[Jennicut]

33. My brother is a hardcore cyclist and races amateur races and he thinks he is a fraud

Totally blood doping and other kinds of doping. Its rampant in this sport but not many watch it. My brother bikes over 65 miles a day at times. He is crazy but I love him. :)

[Jakes Progress]

36. Yep. He's crazy alright.

Cycling is the most tested sport in the world.

Does your brother dope? If he were half-bright, he would understand that the few who have been caught are because of the testing program. That kind of attitude is prevalent among those who gather news from Faux and the sensationalist press.

In no other sport are athletes tested by surprise multiple times a year. Blood histories and levels are measured over time. Each athlete must be available and have their whereabouts known at all times. One was banned, not because he tested positive but just because he was found to have lied about where he was for a week. His team fired him and he was kicked out of the Tour. First offense - no recourse.

If you watch the tour you will see the van that riders go to after each stage. The winners are always tested and they pick others at random. Lance is the most tested athlete in the world. His blood and urine are tested many times each month.

Mouthing off about someone when you don't really know anything about it except for silly gossip is irresponsible.

[Jennicut]

44. I hope he does not. He does sound like he is very tested.

[earth mom]

41. Don't you live in Europe? If so, you have a biased view. UNREC. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

42. I only know that he was born with a mutant heart and his lactate levels are 1/2 to 1/3 other racers

It's true most athletes have enlarged hearts but it seems Mr. Armstrong had a rather distinct head start in this regard. His very low lactate levels probably indicate an increased number of mitochondria in his muscle fibers that could only be brought about by not just training but genetic advantage as well.

Mr. Armstrong has highly unusual physiology. While it's true he's not the only person walking around the earth with these highly unusual advantages, he is the only one who possesses them in this sport who has trained sufficiently to enjoy their advantage.

I have no idea whether or not Mr. Armstrong has used any kind of illegal enhancement. I do know it would seem to be unnecessary in his case, and therefore, imo, somewhat unlikely.

I can definitely see how those without a more detailed understanding of physiology would come to the conclusion that Mr. Armstrong would have to have doped to achieve what he has. I'm not saying he didn't dope, I'm just saying that based on his physiology, he wouldn't have to dope to achieve what he has achieved.

I have no emotional investment. I don't care about cycling. I don't know jack squat about European sports. Physiology, OTOH, I'm much better acquainted with. Take it for what it's worth.