For those of you offended by Bruno, are you also offended by Stephen Colbert?

[Clintonista2]

Stephen Colbert has:

-Claimed George Bush is the greatest president in the history of America
-Said that all gays are going to hell
-Claimed that evolution is a liberal lie
-After the 2006 midterm elections, claimed that the terrorists were the real winners in the Democratic victory

[Warpy]

1. I can't say I'm mortally offended by Bruno

but I do tend to avoid anything that utterly adolescent.

I outgrew that stuff a very, very long time ago. Like when I was ten.

[seabeyond]

37. tend to avoid anything that utterly adolescent. outgrew

abso fuckin lutely. isnt that the truth. but one step further

if a group is bothered, i listen and respect.

[Warpy]

52. No shit.

everybody's got their own capacity for insensitive, adolescent bullshit.

My fuse tends to be long and I'd rather just walk away. I won't diminish anyone else's experience of it, though.

[patricia92243]

2. Have not seen Bruno yet. Colbert is satire. Is Bruno? I've heard that it is supposed to be. But,

as the mother of a gay son, I think caution needs to be taken in satire - that it really is satire - and not hidden ridicule or hate speech.

[Clintonista2]

38. I am gay, and a big fan of Borat/Bruno

But I've been told that I'm supposed to be offended by it. And yes I realize that Colbert is satire, but so is Bruno, that's the point.

[Touchdown]

59. Andrew Dice Clay was satire too.

Just sayin'

[JitterbugPerfume]

3. some people like that sort of thing

I just think it is mind numbingly stupid

Colbert is a satirist. Bruno is a sensationalist.

[bettyellen]

4. Colbert ridicules rabid repubicans, who are hateful and deserve it... so does Bruno ridicule

homophobes or is he perpetuating awful sterotypes? I don't have the answer.

[Sal Minella]

16. If Sasha Baron Cohen wanted to ridicule homophobes, he would

portray an absurdly exaggerated homophobe, not an absurdly exaggerated gay guy.

Colbert doesn't ridicule Wingnuts by playing a socially-conscious, fair-minded Democrat,right?

So Colbert's satire and Cohen's "comedy" are diametrical opposites.

[Bjorn Against]

21. Have you seen the movie?

There is another big difference between Cohen and Colbert that you don't mention, Colbert does not play his audience's reaction for laughs in the same way Cohen does. With Cohen's work we are not so much laughing at Cohen's characters themselves, we are laughing at the public reaction to those characters.

[Sal Minella]

24. We are laughing at the discomfiture of people being conned in front of a camera.

Cohen elicits socially-unacceptable behavior in his (filmed) victims and then holds them up on a movie screen for ridicule by theatergoers. You can't call his filmed victims an "audience" because they are unaware there's a show going on.

Cohen may be a genius at what he does, but so were Madoff and Ken Lay. Letting your genius make you rich (capitalizing on weaknesses in human character) may be legal but it can be morally objectionable.

[Bjorn Against]

29. I don't see any comparision with Lay or Madoff, they were criminals who stole billions

The people who Cohen aims his ridicule at are the bigots, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the hateful people who publicly embarrass themselves in his movies.

You didn't answer my question though, have you seen the movie?

[Sal Minella]

33. Didn't mean to ignore the question. I have watched (or tried to watch,

sometimes tried SEVERAL TIMES to watch) clips of both Borat and Bruno, and I find that even a brief exposure to Cohen's technique makes me squirm so badly I simply can't stand to watch more than a few minutes.

So no, I have not seen the entirety of either Borat or Bruno, but have seen many pieces of many clips, and have seen Cohen interviewed as Cohen, and was not at all surprised to find him insufferable as a human being. He seems to think we all exist for him to make fun of.

Cohen, like Lay and Madoff, has learned to capitalize handsomely on the less-savory aspects of human character -- that's all I meant to imply.

People paying money to watch people like themselves being made idiots of -- pretty pathetic, seems to me. It's "Candid Camera" on a social scale.

[Touchdown]

60. And Cohen is conning movie goers into parting with $10 for what he calls comedy.

And like most of the public, they're suckers and believe him... just like they believed in Madoff. :shrug:

[Andy Canuck]

66. He does play an absurdly exaggerated homophobe,

his name is Straight Dave, and he exposes the true vile nature of homophobia with more courage and bravery than can be imagined. I would say he put his life on the line. Bruno is an extreme character that walks into the extremist's world.

[hlthe2b]

5. You don't seem to understand parody and sarcastic humor....

Which is Colbert's stock and trade....:shrug: Parody can be uncomfortable but Colbert does not become gratuitous to the point of cruelty towards his subjects. EVER.

There is a line in humor that takes it from edgy to cruel.
I find Sacha Baron Cohen crosses it with fair regularity... Cringe-inducing "humor" just makes me feel complicit.
Borat was enough...I'll pass.

[Schema Thing]

6. Good question

I have a friend who love, love, loves Jon Stewart, but just can't watch Stephen Colbert. My friend is smart enough intellectually to know that Colbert is satire, but he can't deal with the way Colbert stays in character.



People who can't deal with Bruno are people who demand a "j/k" from their comedians.


Satire doesn't work (and loses it's power) if there are "just kiddings" after every joke.

[Sal Minella]

8. Colbert is funny because he is satirizing people who DESERVE to be made fun of

because they have adopted ridiculous beliefs. I think Colbert is brilliantly funny.

Sacha Baron Cohen is trying to make fun of inborn characteristics that are simply intrinsically not funny. His "comedy" is fundamentally cruel, not funny.

Maybe he'll develop a wheelchair-bound character who will amuse us by tumbling headlong down escalators, getting stuck in pavement seams in heavy traffic, etc. Hilarious. A blind character who walks into walls, maybe. Laff-a-minute, Cohen is.

[Schema Thing]

11. Homophobes and Rednecks and general American un-progressiveness don't deserve...

to be made fun of?

[Sal Minella]

18. If I put on blackface make-up and break into a soft-shoe routine,

would you assume I'm satirizing racists?

Don't think so. Nope.

[Schema Thing]

23. If you then satirized rascist, yes of course I would.

A person is a racist because they believe black people are inferior, not because of their sense of humor.

[Sal Minella]

25. So when is Cohen going to put on his homophobe costume

and satirize homophobes???

[Schema Thing]

27. that isn't how it works

He gets the rednecks and homophobes and general American lack of progressiveness to reveal them/its selves.



Surely you know this. If not, you haven't watched his schtick and therefor your comments are uninformed.

[Bjorn Against]

31. He already has, Ali G was a very homophobic character

[Sal Minella]

34. Looks like we need to see Ali G. and Bruno interviewing each other then eh? Eh!

[Andy Canuck]

67. He does as Straight Dave.

See the movie.

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. When I get up in the morning,

I spend 15 minutes being generally offended about everything. That gets it out of the way for the day.

[obliviously]

9. Great idea!

Do you have a things that piss me off list that you meditate on?

[Are_grits_groceries]

12. No.

Usually I just stay vexed about whatever comes to mind during that time. If I don't remember something, then I must not have been too offended.

[Toasterlad]

10. Still Waiting for That List About What's Offensive And What's Not.

Hurry it up, will you? All this freedom to decide things for myself is really confusing.

[Clintonista2]

39. And I'm still waiting for the list of things that I am supposed to be outraged over

However, I understand that your list would encompass thousands upon thousands of DU threads, so...

[dsc]

13. when conservative pundits are routinely beaten in the streets

sometimes to death, only to see the federal government do nada about it, then I worry about Colbert.

[Sal Minella]

14. Yup.

[Taitertots]

15. People offended just don't get it

He is not making fun of gays or Europeans with Bruno and Borat. He is making fun of all the people he is filming and the people he is offending. That is why it is filmed in real situations instead of on a hollywood sound stage with all actors.

[Sal Minella]

17. And it's okay with you that the stereotypical characteristics of his characters

are exaggerated to maximize the reactions of his (unsuspecting) victims? The end justifies the means here, you think?

He IS making fun of gays and Europeans, in front of people who dislike them, in order to draw out their empathies.

It's a cheap trick, low-class, no-class, and vile. Like I said, can hardly wait for the wheelchair movie (the guy will be named "Axel" no doubt) and the blind guy movie.

[Taitertots]

20. Scary Movie 2

Mini Me
See no Evil, Hear no Evil
Stuck on me
Plus hundreds of unfavorable retards, blacks, and arabs

[Sal Minella]

22. What is the purpose of this listing, pray tell?

Is there a point?

[Taitertots]

26. The movies making fun of wheelchairs and blind people already exist

I guess you are just too up tight to get it.

[Unvanguard]

28. And they are cruel and objectionable, too. n/t

[Taitertots]

53. Well you can just watch Frasier

or whatever else your Milquetoast palate can handle.

[Unvanguard]

54. If toughness means insensitivity to offensive and objectifying material

I'll gladly be a weakling.

[Taitertots]

56. Toughness isn't insensitivity

Is also isn't over sensitivity. If you can't handle Borat and Bruno just stick to watching Friends.

[tekisui]

35. "Retards"?

[Taitertots]

36. Yeah

People who are retarded.

[cwydro]

47. Retards is not a good term

for people with developmental disabilities.

But perhaps you already knew that.

[tekisui]

48. Dude, that's not the preferred nomenclature.

It is developmentally disabled.

[Orsino]

65. I get it. You are actually making fun of bigots...

...and are not actually bigoted yourself.

[Sal Minella]

71. WONDERFULLY subtle, isn't he........

[Unvanguard]

19. Colbert's persona mocks conservatives--that's the point.

And the entire problem with Bruno is that Cohen's "Bruno" persona similarly mocks gays.

(The moral difference, of course, is that conservatism is actually objectionable for reasons Colbert's mockery gets at, while the stereotypes Bruno exploits--essentially the "ditzy blond" stereotype of women applied to gay men--have no substance to them and hardly constitute legitimate discourse. They tell us nothing of importance about gays; they are just insulting.)

[Clintonista2]

40. Cohen doesn't mock gays. You're missing the point completely

He mocks the bigots he interviews. Go watch his interview with the "gays can be rehabilitated" pastor for example.

[Bjorn Against]

42. Here it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazrAzBP_0I&feature=PlayList&p=E2A383C18E058DBE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=90

[Clintonista2]

44. Thank you. eom

[depakid]

45. "I love Romans"

:rofl:

[Unvanguard]

46. Yes, he does. The fact that he mocks other people too is beside the point. n/t

[Sal Minella]

51. Rakoff's take on the gay-counseling pastor is interesting. (Salon)

http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2009/07/09/bruno_rakoff/print.html

[Touchdown]

62. Oh' I get the point. I don't think Cohen does though.

[-..__...]

30. I wonder how many would be offended by Ari Shaffir....

AKA The Amazing Racist?

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%22amazing%20racist%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

What's really amazing about this guy is that no one has killed him yet.

[Bjorn Against]

32. I watched just a couple minutes of that and it was horribly racist

If that was supposed to be satire it failed miserably. Cohen confronts bigots with his satire, this guy goes out and confronts blacks who have been the victims of racism their entire lives. Satire should be aimed at exposing injustice, I think Cohen's work does that but this other guy is perpetrating injustice rather than exposing it.

[dana_b]

77. agreed

that was horrible.

I haven't seen "Bruno" but I know that "Borat" brought out some of the ugly truths about people - like prejudging a coutry and its people when we know nothing about it. He made an ass out of himself - the 'amazing racist' is just a mean asshole. Mabe he needs a knock in the head to get him to stop.

[csziggy]

41. Sometimes I find Colbert too caustic and I don't watch him regularly

Same as Leno, Letterman, O'Brien and most of the current crop of comedians, I just don't find a lot of what they do funny. I like Jon Stewart but some of his "reporters" are not to my liking.

[Ex Lurker]

70. the "reporters" are the best part of Stewart's show IMV n/t

[csziggy]

74. Some of the Daily Show reporters are funny, others just annoying

But it is probably that I am getting older and the youth targeted humor is just not the style I grew up with.

[backscatter712]

43. Hey, I get a kick out of Sacha Baron Cohen!

I haven't seen Bruno yet, but I got a kick out of him as Borat going to that rodeo, wearing a cowboy outfit festooned with the American Flag, and saying "I hope George. W. Bush drinks the blood of every man, woman and child in Iraq!"

And the funniest part isn't Cohen himself, but the reactions of people around him.

I'll have to see Bruno just to see how Ron Paul reacts to Bruno hitting on him...

[cwydro]

49. I'm no personally offended by him.

I think his humor is crude; Colbert is clever.

No comparison, imo.

[chrisa]

50. I wasn't offended by Bruno, but

I thought it was a stupid movie, with a penis flashing on the screen every five seconds, and some scenes that were practically porn movies. It was basically 12 year old humor / gay jokes every five seconds. I enjoyed Borat. This movie, on the other hand, was terrible.

[apocalypsehow]

55. Who's offended by "Bruno"? The entire thing makes the bigots the butt of the joke, IMO.

:shrug:

[depakid]

58. Same sorts who would likely be offended at Blazing Saddles

[liberalpress]

76. It is offensive to me

to use the words "gay" and "butt" in the same sentence. (j/k)

[philosophie_en_rose]

57. Stephen Colbert doesn't trick people into appearing on his show.

He's ridiculous, but he's actually very nice to his guests and warns them that his persona is an idiot. "Bruno" plays mean-spirited practical jokes on unsuspecting people. Colbert mocking public figures and public news is very different.

[Starry Messenger]

64. I'd never been able to put that into words before.

Thank you. :thumbsup:

My own personal beef with this movie is that as a high school teacher come the Fall (which starts in about a month for me) I'm going to be chasing little homophobes around riffing off this movie without seeing themselves in it as an object of satire. Maybe not, I hope not...but that's my dread at this time.

[Ex Lurker]

69. I suspect you predict correctly n/t

[Sal Minella]

72. Ouch. Yes, young teens tend to lack finely-developed appreciation for biting satire

on bigots. I would deeply dread walking into this, if I were you, yes.

[Yukari Yakumo]

79. Aside from there is almost certainly a BIG FUCKING CAMERA filming to say something is amiss. {nt}

[Touchdown]

61. He's ONLY a comedian. Get a sense of humor. Like these guys.

Andrew Dice Clay: Little Miss Muffet...along comes a spider... Hey! What's in the bowl Bitch? Get over it ladies. It's only his character he's playing!
Eddie Murphy: Hey Fred! How would you like to fuck me up the ass? It's only a joke! Get over it!
Jackie Mason: Obama's a Schwartze! What can I say? He's a muslim! He's only joking. Don't be so sensitive!
MIchael Richards: You know what is funny? You're a nigger! That's what's funny! He's only trying to quiet a heckler. Get a fucking sense of humor!
Eddie Murphy: ASHO ASHO ASHO! hehehe. Yeah I show you! I make special wonton soup for you! It's funny because he's making fun of anti-asian bigots! Get over it!
Al Jolson: Mammy! Mammy! He's only an entertainer. There's a proud history of singing in black face! Don't be so thin skinned!
Donna Summer: I don't want those queers playing my music in their pervert bars! She's got such talent. She really didn't mean it.
I Now Pronounce you Chuck and Larry: Sure, it's got an hour and a half of insulting fag jokes, but the inclusive lecture at the end makes up for all that. What are you griping about?
Amos & Andy: An Dat what he gonna git! They were funny! They gave many people joy in the Depression.
Rush Limbaugh: Did you know the Clintons have a first dog (shows picture of Chelsea)? He's an ENTERTAINER! That's what he does! Don't criticize him... it's all you!

What are you Clintonista? Cohen's publicist? How many threads are you going to write in your defense of him. Some of us don't like him. Get over it, grow a pair, develop a sense of self, don't be so sensitive, et al.

[verges]

75. Okay--

1) Richards wasn't trying to be funny with those lines. He was on an uncontrolled angry rant. He was provoked to anger. The racism is unforgivable. The anger at being heckled, I feel is. It's a very fine line I realize. And it doesn't get Richards off the hook. But you're depiction of it as a joke is off-base.

2) Jolson was a product of his time. He was not the only blackface/minstrel performer out there. Georgie Jessel (who originated the Jazz Singer on stage) and Eddie Cantor were also performers who began their careeres doing minstrel acts. It should also be noted that ethnic humor in general was the mainstream entertainment of the first 30 years of the twentieth century. Is it fair to criticize someone for making a living using their talents in what is a socially acceptable (for their time) way?

3) Apparently you've never looked closely at Amos'n'Andy. The only really objectionable part was that two white actors were portraying black characters on the radio (and I'm not really sure that that is a problem). If you lsten to episodes of the show, you may discover that it's really no worse than many of the shows that have run on UPN over the past ten years or so. Amos'n'Andy, it should also be pointed out gave the first main stream depictions of African-Americans as Doctors, lawyers and other professionals.
Yes, there are stupid characters in Amos'n'Andy who are Black. Thare are also stupid characters depicted on "White" sitcoms. Are they racist as well? Ironically, there was a white version of AA. Lum and Abner. But, instead of African-Americans it depicted rural southerners. There were equivalents for most the major characters. I've never heard anyone complain about them.

4) As for Rush. Rush was doing it to be malicious. He wanted to hurt.

I haven't seen Bruno, and I probably won't. But my understanding is that he uses the stereotype as a weapon against the homophobes to unmask their hatreds. The stereotype characature isn't the end in and of itself. It is merely a tool to achieve an end.

[TheCML]

63. Where is Tipper when you need her?

The American people need to be protected from this filth!

[Sal Minella]

73. Miss the point much??? Congratulations on making my Ignore list,

a small (but select) population of perfect dunces.

[Ex Lurker]

68. I'm offended by neither. But there is a difference between them, and it's a big one

Colbert is funny, Cohen is not.

[fishwax]

78. one can recognize that it's satire and still be offended, b/c not all satire is good or effectiv

The comparison between Colbert and Bruno isn't particularly apt, since they are very different kinds of satire. (I haven't seen the movie, so I can't really speak to how well it plays out.)