What really happened at Chappaquiddick?

[CTyankee]

With the 40th anniversary of this event coming up on July 18th, I thought we could explore what DUers think really happened. I am old enough to have remembered the incident well, and how torn I was about what went on that night.
One theory at the time had it that Kennedy was not even in the car and Kopechne drove over the embankment into the water by accident. See http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,942138-2,00.html. I don't believe that Ted Kennedy "let her die" as the RW would have it; but I am not convinced that his story was completely true...

[dysfunctional press]

1. other: who gives a rat's ass?

[CTyankee]

2. I thought that after 30 years time it would be interesting to see how history had

treated the incident. It was a really big deal at the time and has been used, at various times, by the RW as a Big Stick to hit liberals over the head with.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

34. Second that -

why does this incident always come up? It's as if that's all that ever happened in the life of Ted Kennedy.

How come we're not doing polls about how Chimpy Fucknuts stayed out of Vietnam, or how Cheney dodged the draft, or Newt's divorces, or - oh, take your pick?

This needs to be stopped. Enough is enough. The man's led an exemplary life, done more good than any of us will ever accomplish if we had a hundred lifetimes, and one tragic error - haven't we all made really big mistakes that shame us when we think of them? - should not define him.

Rat's ass, indeed........................

[CTyankee]

58. I would agree with you except that it is such a part of our political culture

that it assumes a tragic stature (and perhaps that is generational). I remember being so profoundly affected by it. My very first vote was for JFK. His assassination was a hugely defining moment in my life and that of my entire generation. The same could be said for RFK's rise and his assassination. Then Chappaquiddick. It is very difficult for me to accept and even "hear" your complaint, altho I must because you have a generational voice that is equally as valid as mine, of course.

I agree with you, tho, that Kennedy has, through his devotion to public service, done SO much to help so many people that we should all be eternally grateful for him. I am not dissing him here. I WOULD like to get some insights on how history has judged him. Call it the "academic" in me...it's a worthy topic from that perspective, don't you agree?:hi:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

65. I was a freshman in college in November of 1963 -

I was in South America when MLK, Jr. was murdered, and I had just landed in Miami for a short trip home when RFK was shot. I stayed in the airport for the whole night, until the news came that he had died.

Life-changing, yet. Transformational, yes.

I remember being at a classmate's uncle's vacation home in Rockaway when Teddy was in that plane crash, and I remember the conversation we had about a contract being out on the Kennedy brothers.

But, Chappaquiddick was not a big deal for me, not like the murders. To put it coldly, Kopechne had no meaning for me, an unfortunate girl who died, but no one who might have influenced my life. Plus, I was launching my own life, and the selfishness of the young can carry them a long way.

We have all made terrible mistakes, and I daresay none of us wants those mistakes periodically splashed across the front pages of web sites, newspapers, anyplace.

I'm not sure I agree that it's a worthy topic. It's certainly gossip fodder, and continues to be used by the rightwingnuts to prove how evil the Kennedys are/were. But significant? To Ted Kennedy and his family, of course. To the Kopechne family, absolutely. But, to the Americans story, I'm not sure it makes any kind of contribution. I don't know that it kept Teddy from running for President, because I vividly recall his being asked why he wanted to run, and he was stuck for an answer. I think he found his niche in the Senate, and did a splendid job there.

It's always a worthy topic to discuss, absolutely. We of that generation have a quite different set of perspectives on all of it, and, while I wish it had turned out so very differently, it's never boring..............

To us, all of us:

:toast:

[CTyankee]

79. what a nice remembrance! Thank you so much, tangerine!

I guess it is the closeness of the two assassinations that really clouded our tinking about Chappaquiddick. We simply did not want it to be that way. Impossible. Unthinkable.

Which is why now I am asking this question because I am really interested in how history (with liberals especially, no need to ask conservatives!) is considered NOW.

As ever, your point of view is so valued. How has history treated this event? As a student of history through my long life, I ask this question...

[shanti]

98. yes

the man's in the winter of his life. it doesn't affect our life. leave it alone.

[TexasObserver]

3. 40th, not 30th.

[CTyankee]

4. Oops! Thanks for the correction. nt

[TexasObserver]

10. I knew you'd want to know while you could change it.

I've been a Teddy fan for 41 years, in spite of his initial reaction to the tragedy.

[DevonRex]

5. Other. I think it was a set-up.

[CTyankee]

6. How so? nt

[DevonRex]

15. Because JFK and RFK were assassinated. Isn't it a little too convenient

that this happened to Teddy? After all, surely the American people would have finally become suspicious if a THIRD Kennedy brother were assassinated, right? So Teddy's reputation was destroyed. Political assassination, wouldn't you say?

Not saying I'm certain of this. But I'm suspicious enough to wonder...

[CTyankee]

20. Could be, but I have always suspected that Ted was very irresponsible in those days.

He was in the shadow of his famous brothers and drank an awful lot. He just seemed reckless to me, and I revered JFK and RFK.

At any rate, I also believe that the years that passed and his remorse and realization that he was the standard bearer for the family made him a better man and he devoted himself to public service as a result.

[DevonRex]

24. I think we should all reconsider what we assumed or suspected about Teddy.

Those rat bastard republicans would do anything to discredit a Kennedy. And through it all he has served well and loyally.

[Sebastian Doyle]

25. Just because Teddy may have been driving drunk

...doesn't mean his brake lines weren't cut. Or the car sabotaged in some other way. One doesn't exclude the other.

[CTyankee]

30. That doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

I have seen a map that shows where the car started from and where it ended up. To get to the ferry taking them to Edgartown (where they were going) they would have to have turned left at an intersection. It was late and very dark and deserted. For some reason the car turned right and headed towards the embankment where it went into the water. The bridge there only takes you to a thin strip of beach (where you need to deflate your tires in order to drive on it). It makes sense to me that the turn left was either his mistake because he was too drunk to know better or that he wasn't in the car at the time. There was no reason for Kennedy and Kopechne to go to the barrier strip.

Chappaquiddick is not at all well lit. It is and has been very rustic and secluded. Only 30% of Martha's Vineyard is paved to this day! That's how they want it there...here is a map so you can envision it better http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl. You have to enter "Chappaquiddick" in the Search box, tho...sorry.

[Tan Gent]

23. Well heck, you must be right and that's why he was never elected to anything.

:shrug:

[DevonRex]

27. You do realize that JFK was assassinated while president and that RFK was

assassinated while RUNNING for president, right? So stands to reason that somebody might not like a Kennedy being president. With that incident, Teddy would never go higher than Senator from Massachusettes. And that's just the way republicans wanted it.

[Tan Gent]

35. As it happened, I was in Dallas the day JFK was killed by Oswald

and in the Air Force when Bobby was assassinated. I remember them well as I was politically active at both times. When Teddy screwed up, I was not surprised. Not happy either.

[Fearless]

49. How astoundingly empty of actual content! Bravo and welcome!

To be frank, I'm not supporting or negating any view of yours, but if you want to last around here, you'll want to stick to the more relevant when supporting points. Being in Dallas doesn't make you an expert on JFK or the assassination any more than being in New York City, London, Madrid, Oklahoma City, etc. makes you an expert on terrorism.

[Tan Gent]

54. I merely mentioned those facts to show that I was around then

and was paying attention. It is possible, I suspect, that some posters here were not. Are you suggesting that I must adhere to some particular set of allegations...like yours in particular...to avoid being tossed out of here?
That's ...interesting to say the least.

I will however award you points for pure snide.

[Fearless]

56. Not at all...

Actually what I'm saying was two entirely separate statements, neither of which was snide. You can believe that or not, I couldn't care less.

The first is that the comment you made does not make you an expert. In fact the further comment you made still does not make you an expert. Just because you were alive means nothing in regards to the topic in debate. The fact is, few if anyone (myself included) here is truly capable of educated opinions on the topic discussed.

The second point is that you will of your own free will decide this place is not for you with comments in that vein. Certainly it isn't against any rules or regulations to say what you said, but there are those who will feast on that. It was me giving a friendly attempt at advice for a new poster so that you don't have issues with fellow posters in the future.

Clearly the advice was unwanted, so have a nice day anyways,

Fearless.

[Tan Gent]

62. My mistake. I will be forever in your debt for the sage advice.

Thank you very much.

[Fearless]

88. You're entirely welcome.

:+

[MinM]

28. Brian De Palma's "Blow Out" (1981)

Starts with a Chappaquiddickesque scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khsPBdyBxlY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blow_Out

The film alludes to elements of the Watergate scandal and the JFK assassination.<4> The film also recalls elements of the Chappaquiddick incident,<3> although De Palma intentionally tried to downplay the similarities...

Democratic Underground - Ted Kennedy survived a fatal plane crash in 1964. - Democratic Underground

Sen. Edward M. Kennedy smiles and waves a bandaged hand from the back of an ambulance in this July 9, 1964 file photo, after being transferred from Northampton, Mass. to New England Baptist Hospital, in Boston to treat injuries sustained in a private airplane crash. Medical Corpsman Roger Eckert, of Buffalo, N.Y., left, helps the senator move. Kennedy underwent surgery Friday Oct. 12, 2007 to repair a partially blocked artery in his neck, which was discovered during an examination of a back injury from the 1964 plane crash.

http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2006/05/sen-edward-kennedys-plane-downed-by.html">Real History Blog: Sen. Edward Kennedy's Plane Downed by Lightning?

[DevonRex]

31. Thank you SO much for that information and those links!!!!

:hug:

I had a conversation with somebody here about this quite a while back, and now can't remember who it was. There was also something in the Nixon tapes that was quite suspicious. I wish I could remember...

[MinM]

100. You are welcome.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3179462717908405974&ei=zIFaSuD2EILCqQK_3dn1Bg

[tibbiit]

29. I have always thought this

If they (the pukes at the time were just as evil as today, they just didn't have talk radio, newspapers, cable tv and internets) don't assassinate by bullet, then by character weakness... ted drinking and the clenis.
THey needed to get rid of all kennedys... with that in mind... what about jfk jr?
tib

[DevonRex]

32. We'd have to be brain dead not to have wondered about JFK jr.

I mean, seriously.

[TheUnspeakable]

94. Have you ever seen this?

The Assassination of JFK Junior - Murder by Manchurian Candidate

Perhaps not an air-tight case-but it raises some very interesting questions.

[Raspberry]

41. This didn't "happen" to Teddy

It happened to a young girl names Mary Jo. She died. Stop acting like Ted Kennedy was the victim here. If a Repub had driven his car off a bridge with a girl trapped inside, then failed to report the accident for many, many hours, everyone here would be calling for prison. Instead, Ted Kennedy's reputation was hardly destroyed. He stayed out of jail, and he has been in the Senate for 40 years since. Seems to me, his life has been just fine. Mary Jo Kopechne, however, has been dead for 40 years.

Furthermore, if it had been a set-up, how could "they" have predicted that the girl would die? Or that Ted wouldn't report the accident? No matter the cause of the accident, he was responsible for his actions afterward. There really isn't much of an excuse not to have reported it immediately, with rescue/recovery efforts started ASAP.

[undeterred]

47. Do you believe everything happens exactly

as the mainstream media reports it? Hook, line, sinker?

[Tan Gent]

48. You are risking life and limb here by questioning this (or any) conspiracy theory.

I'm new to posting but I've been reading here for years. I know what I'm talking about.

[Raspberry]

50. Thanks for the words of advice

I guess I don't understand why EVERYTHING that happens has to be part of some huge conspiracy theory.

[Tan Gent]

51. Yes...there are conspiracies and there are CONspiracies.

Their evilness varies greatly depending on whose ox is gored.
:D

[Hannah Bell]

57. it's the opposite.

[Tan Gent]

69. Who could possibly take issue with such impeccable logic?

:silly:

[karynnj]

85. I agree with you

I think Kennedy is a phenomenal Senator. He also has to be a basically good person NOW or it would be difficult to explain the incredible affection that people like Senator Kerry have for him. (then his treatment of his wife was not good either.)

I don't see the need of some to make this into a conspiracy theory where he is innocent. That was not even his own story. You can argue the difficulties of his life, but this is still something he will always have in his past.

[tabatha]

40. Agreed.

They could not assassinate a third brother.

[Adsos Letter]

7. I think he panicked, as humans are known to do, then lied about it.

as humans are also known to do.

[CTyankee]

11. I thought that at the time but I was intrigued by the theory that he wasn't even there.

The theory was that Kennedy was driving Kopechne to the ferry to go back to Edgartown but stopped when he thought he was being followed by a police car. Kopechne, who didn't know Chappy very well, then turned right when she should have turned left and wound up going into the water next to a small bridge that connected Chappy with a narrow barrier island that wraps around to Edgartown. Kennedy walked to the ferry, not knowing what happened to her.

[BlooInBloo]

8. I have no fucking idea.

[Sebastian Doyle]

9. Let's see.... they killed JFK. They killed RFK.......

Anybody ever consider the fact that "someone" might have been trying for a "sweep" and eliminate the last Kennedy brother before he became a threat (perhaps by calling for investigations into the murder of his brothers).

And hadn't Teddy already survived a plane crash by this time?

:tinfoilhat: Tinfoil? Not really by much, in this case.

[DevonRex]

18. Exactly. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

55. just coinkydinks

:sarcasm:

[Common Sense Party]

89. "They" killed JFK and RFK? The same "they"? You have some sort

of evidence that Oswald and Sirhan were in cahoots? In the same Skull and Bones secret society? I'd LOVE to see that evidence.

[Sebastian Doyle]

93. Oswald may have been ONE of the shooters who hit JFK

But if you believe Sirhan ever was in a position to kill Bobby, then you probably believe the moon is made out of green cheese.

[givemebackmycountry]

12. I heard Poppy Bush had something to do with it.

Off to do a little bit of research.

[CTyankee]

13. Let us know what you find! nt

[HopeHoops]

14. It was Colonel Mustard in the Library with the Candlestick.

I thought that shit was resolved years ago!

[pipi_k]

16. I had to vote "other" because

even though I'm old enough to remember the incident, I wasn't there, don't know what actually happened, and don't know what was going through Teddy's mind at the time.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

17. His drunk ass ran off the road and left her in the car to die.

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. If only Mary Jo had been packing heat.

she would still be alive today. :sarcasm:

[Tan Gent]

37. That's not sarcasm, it is just sick.

...

[Sebastian Doyle]

38. Well, if you hadn't just arrived from Freepistan

you would understand the history of the poster I responded to, and why that sarcasm was indeed appropriate.

Enjoy your visit. And your pizza. :hi:

[Tan Gent]

43. Oh, I see - you are one of the pure ones.

You can probably get me tossed...a tribute to the Democratic big tent, obviously.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

60. He just doesn't like losing arguments, pay him no mind. Welcome to DU.

[Tan Gent]

63. Oh shucks...thanks!

:D

[CTyankee]

80. Well, since I am a liberal grandma at age 69, who cast her first vote for for JFK in 1960

I find your post very funny. And ever since then I have worked for Clergy and Laity Concerned for Vietnam, the ACLU in New YOrk, the ACLU in Washington, DC, the League of Women Voters (D.C headquarters) and Planned Parenthood of CT.

Would you care to question this, my dear Sebastion? Any time...take your time...:hi:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. Maybe if she had shot his drunk ass before he started driving.

She would certainly have been out of prison long ago. Please do not construe this post in any way as advocating shooting drunk drivers.


David

[ColbertWatcher]

87. Guns solve all our problems.

I forgot where my sarcasm tag went.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

91. Why do people keep making idiotic comments like that?

[Mudoria]

39. Truth

[emilyg]

82. Exactly.

Waited hours to report it.

[tritsofme]

19. Everyone who says "who cares?" The the answer is obviously Ted Kennedy.

It was this incident more than any other, we should remember, that stopped him from being President.

His life has a huge investment in the fallout from Chappaquiddick.

I don't know what really happened out there, but I will say it does not surprise me when wealthy powerful people use their wealth and power to avoid responsibility for their actions.

[Lex]

21. One of the right-wing's favorite masturbatory topics.

Along with the Clenis.

[Common Sense Party]

90. Just like Pickles' vehicular manslaughter got several DU'ers rocks off

over the last 8 years.

[Tan Gent]

22. Teddy fucked up. There isn't any rocket science here.

It didn't destroy his reputation to me, any more than Bill Clinton's did but I sure wish they both had been more forthcoming. Condoning stuff like they did is not the way to win over traditionalists.

[CTyankee]

33. nobody died when Clinton had his affairs. This is different.

So we can't be too cavalier about this. However, I do put some credence in the theory that he wasn't there by the time the car went into the water and that it was just an accident. His story didn't make too much sense...

[Tan Gent]

36. Well that's true, of course and I didn't mean to imply it was different in any substantive way

with respect to the sociopolitical upshot. If he wasn't there, he never did manage to produce evidence for that allegation. Bottom line, I thought he was sufficiently penitent for essential absolution -by me, anyway-.
I have no idea how it played with the unknown and unseen magicians of the universe.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. I Love The Kennedys

But when it comes to matters of life and death we shouldn't be concerned about tactics like winning over traditionalists...

[berni_mccoy]

42. Wow, for a second, I thought I was on FreeRepublic.com

[Lex]

44. yeah, seriously

only my freeper uncle goes on and on about this crap

[undeterred]

45. Other: Somebody was trying to kill Ted Kennedy.

[Fearless]

46. Hey, reality check... was anyone there?? Guess then it's just speculation...

[CTyankee]

61. It really is. You are absolutely right.

That is what makes it interesting. I have always had this question about it in the back of my mind...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. I Have An Autographed Photo Of Ted Kennedy Which I Gor After The Accident

My mom and I worked on his 1980 campaign...

It was so long ago...I thank the Lord I was never put in that position, given all the time I was driving when I shouldn't have been...

[hyphenate]

64. I thought the official line, after modern forensics,

was that Kennedy was a passenger, not the driver.

It doesn't bother me, and I can see why some people don't want to hear about it anymore, and that's all fine, but we Democrats always seem to let the repugs bully us in discussions like this. Senator Byrd and his participation in the KKK is another tale always being brought up by them--Dems don't seem to have the backbone to trade stories one-on-one, and while I attribute that to our superior propensity of turning the other cheek, it makes us look particularly wishy-washy in appearance.

We've been in these situations so many times, and no one has stepped up to the plate and tell the repugs off, in public, and settled the topics right then and there. If we can't do that, they will continue to spew their worst, and make us look like cowards ad infinitum.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

81. Absolutely correct -

I'm so sick of Democrats who can't take it - Harry Reid is their poster boy.

I want Democrats to be ballsy and get down there and slap together the tits of those rightwingnut assholes. That's what I want. We've got a lot more on theirs than they ever had on any of ours..............

[peacetalksforall]

66. CT Yankee - devote your energy to figuring out one of the mysteries of

the past administration. Or maybe you can work in the popular ideas about the death of Marilyn Monroe.

You're free to do it, but I think the territory is well covered by right wing haters. What good does it do for more opinions? Has anything happened recently to shed new light on it.

You're great with the spot light.

[CTyankee]

76. You know, you really have the wrong person here. I am a 69 year old grandmother of four.

As it happens, I have a Master's Degree in Liberal Studies, which is not a right wing territory, by any stretch.

What does it do for any stretch? Well, what do you take off the table for intellectual discussion? You tell me.

[MrSlayer]

67. The ratfuckers were trying to kill Kennedy but failed.

And unfortunately a young woman was killed instead.

[Octafish]

70. John Dean might know, according to Nixon tapes...

"If Teddy knew the bear trap he was walking into at Chappaquiddick. . . ." -- John Dean on White House tapes.

Ted Kennedy almost died when his light airplane crashed in early 1964, killing the pilot and an aide to the Senator. Kennedy broke his back in the "accident." Sen. Birch Bayh (D-Ind. and father to present D-Ind.) kept Kennedy alive overnight in the sub-freezing temps.

[ellie]

75. Hey Octafish!

Thanks for the link! You always have the best links!

[fascisthunter]

99. WOW... I have never seen that quote

[Tan Gent]

71. The ratfuckers just didn't use enough thermite.

Fortunately for Ted...less so for the young woman.

[mitchum]

92. And I think THAT is the correct answer

[Raine]

68. I think Teddy was drunk

he tried and tried to save her but because he was loaded he couldn't. :-( I love Teddy though, I love all the Kennedys.

[ColbertWatcher]

72. Other: Teddy did not know how to help another person from a rapidly sinking car.

Nor did Kopechne know how to get out of one.

Even if Teddy wasn't drunk off his ass, did he know how to get a passenger out of a flooded vehicle?

Does anyone?

[CTyankee]

74. Boy, is that a good question! I don't know...does anybody else? nt

[emilyg]

84. Maybe so. He waited hours to

report the accident.

[ColbertWatcher]

86. That's something else altogether.

Maybe his advisers made him wait to sober up? Or, maybe he got things straightened out with the lawyers first?

Who knows.

I'm just asking about the time in the car.

[JonLP24]

96. Wait for the car to submerge fully underwater... then open the door

You can't open the door when you're half way in because the pressure is not equalized. Wait for the car to become fully emerged then open the door.

Of course confusion and disorientation as well as panic can play a major role in getting out or helping someone out of a sinking car.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

73. BFEE has to be part of it somewhere

:sarcasm:

[PretzelWarrior]

77. it was the one-armed man

[Hepburn]

78. Years ago on another messsage board...

...I met a local who I became friends with. The skinny ~~ supposedly ~~ is that at the time of the accident, he was not in the car. Long explanation to this ~~ which I forget most of, so I will not post ~~ but I recall from all the evidence presented to me, I fully agreed with what was said.

[CTyankee]

83. I read the book on this called "The Bridge at Chappaquiddick."

The theory was that he got out of the car because a police car was following him and Kopechne. He didn't want to be seen with her. So he got out and she continued on but she turned right instead of left (to get to the ferry to Edgartown) and ended up in the water at the little bridge at Chappaquiddick going to the sand spit.

It kind of makes since if you think about it. To think differently, you would have to accept that Kennedy went all the way to the little bridge, left it after the car sank, walked all the way back to the ferry, etc.

It doesn't add up to me...

[1]

95. does it really matter at this point?

teddy is effectually brain dead at this point.

why drag his good name through the ashes?

[CTyankee]

97. Yes, you make a good point...nt