San Francisco to Consider Cat De-Clawing Ban

[The Straight Story]

SAN FRANCISCO, CA - An animal welfare advisory board to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors is recommending the city ban the veterinary practice of de-clawing cats, except in cases of medical necessity.

The San Francisco Commission of Animal Control and Welfare voted 5-1 Thursday in support of a ban, arguing the practice is cruel and often done simply for cosmetic purposes or to prevent pets from clawing furniture, Commission Chair Sally Stephens said.

Stephens said the procedure involves amputating the last bone in a cat's paw and, though doctors use anesthetic, some cats can suffer long-term pain and behavioral changes, such as refusing to use a litter box.

"So basically it's kind of barbaric," Stephens said.

A proposed ordinance in San Francisco would be modeled on a ban already in effect in West Hollywood, the first city in the country to ban de-clawing. The practice has also been banned in several European countries.

http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=63052&catid=2

[dysfunctional press]

1. then they should also ban bobbing dog's tails and ears.

we used to de-claw our cats(front only), and we had one siamese for whom it WAS a 'medical necessity'- she was polydactyl, and had two claws that were grown together and couldn't retract.

we don't declaw anymore, but we do still have one cat that's de-clawed up front- a 13-year old red tabby named mars.

[Maru Kitteh]

18. I agree on all counts. We also have one cat who needed surgery but he kept his unaffected claws.

But about bobbing dogs ears and tails for cosmetics... I just find that practice barbaric.

[slampoet]

33. and all pugs, bulldogs and other smushed nose breeds that have breathing problems.

[Hepburn]

50. Totally agree....

...I just hate to see those poor dogs wearing those "ear halos" in order to reach some non-biological look.

JMHO

[harmonicon]

151. they certainly should

[blondeatlast]

190. Absolutely agreed. I have a beautiful, pound adopted Soft Coated Wheaten

Terrier who has a magnificent tail that might have been docked.

It breaks my heart to think of her without it. I vehemently oppose the ban on declawing, btw.

[dysfunctional press]

192. okay, i'll bite- why do you oppose the ban on declawing cats...?

i had a long-haired gray cat that had to have it's tail removed- i took it in as a stray, and his tail had already been broken somehow, and he couldn't lift it. i didn't realize that he had no feeling in it until i accidentally stepped on it and it elicited absolutely no reaction from him. BUT- upon closer inspection, i found out that his dead tail was Infested with fleas...PLUS- whenever he'd use the litter box, since he couldn't raise his tail, he'd drag his long-haired mop thru whatever he'd just left behind...when he came into a room, you could always tell if he'd just been to the litter box.

[blondeatlast]

193. I'm not in favor of declawing but a ban isn't acceptable to me

with what I know of it.

There are medical necessities, of course, as in your cat's case. If it's a case of say, getting rid of a beloved pet or declawing it (and I know of just such a situation), I'm okay with the owner's decision. I don't support declawing--but I don't want to make a decision for someone in a difficult situation, either, so I can't support a mandated ban.

[dysfunctional press]

195. the ban allows for medical necessity.

as for the situation you mention- if the cat is that 'beloved', they definitely wouldn't consider de-clawing it, especially if it's an older cat- as it's even more difficult for them to cope with it being done. what are the particulars of the situation?

[EFerrari]

2. Good! n/t

[BlooInBloo]

3. I always thought declawing cats would confuse them...

in a "shit doesn't work the way it's supposed to, and adaptation isn't my strong suit" kind of way.

[hyphenate]

14. From evidence researched in a number of areas

They find that declawed animals end up becoming biters. And that is even worse, because the animal's life is screwed if he's biting his masters.

[gristy]

28. My cat is declawed and is a biter - it's her only defense

She was found by a friend as a stray - already declawed. :(

[Dorian Gray]

203. We had a cat

that was declawed years ago. (Also found that way as a stray.) She was really sweet, but even as a child I was upset that someone had taken her fingernail's out. Ouch!

I think it's banned in England. And I think it's a good thing. Of course if it's medically necessary, I have no problem with it.

I believe many vets refuse to perform the removal these days, no?

[raincity_calling]

147. My cat is de-clawed - sweetest little thing you can imagine

I did not de-claw her. She was that way when I adopted her. I can however see why the former owner may have done it. If my cat had claws, the door to my apartment would be destroyed - she begs to go in the hallway (or outside - I take her on a leash) and when begging, reaches for the door knob and scratches at the door.

My cat has never once bitten me or even hissed at me in the 4 years that I have had her. She is truly the sweetest most gentle cat I have ever encountered.

I don't like the idea of de-clawing one bit, but if it means an abandoned cat can get a home rather than be euthanized, I support it.

[hyphenate]

199. You're lucky

with that. I think one of the things which might contribute to that is whether there are other cats in the family, and whether there is any kind of stress put on the cat. An old friend I had had an inherited declawed cat, and the poor thing had four other cats in the household, and of course she couldn't defend herself against the others. So she hid a lot, and stayed in my friend's bedroom most of the time because she was so fearful.

[tblue37]

166. My best friend adopted a young stray declawed cat that he found a little over a year ago.

She is adorable and loving, but when startled, she bites--and bites hard. When he is out of town, I take care of her. I have three other cats, and she is nervous while she is here--at least for the first two or three weeks. If I am petting her or she is on my lap and she sees one of my cats coming too close, she will bite me. I have had a couple of deep wounds from her. I just finished a 7-week stint of caring for her while he was in China. She didn't bite me this time--but only because I have gotten really good at spotting the signs before she gets me. But twice before when I cared for her, I ended up with deep wounds in my arm. I told him that I thought she was such a biter because she has no claws to defend herself with.

[hyphenate]

198. It's that way with most cats

except for a handful (like the poster before yours) whose cat has managed to escape that tendency. I did some work when I lived in L.A. with some of the rescue groups, and sometimes, someone in rescue wanted to put their fists through the wall because of frustration in seeing owners putting declawed cats out of the house. And it was usually the "furniture" reason they were doing it. Even my SIL who now has two cats inherited from her son, my nephew, and of whom one is declawed. They're older cats, and they were all housecats, but she's got them going out to do their business. Thankfully they only go as far as the backyard in a gated community, but I get as frustrated as I did in L.A.

In a lot of cases, declawed cats get very timid and fearful, and their entire personality changes. What might have been a confident social animal turns into a hider and real fear. One guy I knew did away with their cat's claws, but had no trouble keeping the claws on their schnauzer, whose claws were longer and noisier than the cat's. Of course, he was also a repug, so maybe that had something to do with it. ;)

[Gormy Cuss]

4. I think declawing should be allowed on one condition.

After the vet explains about the first bone amputation if the owner still wants to go through with it, he/she must submit to an amputation of his/her own fingertips.

Declawing just isn't necessary -- Softpaws or clipping the cat's nails prevent the scratching problems without harm to the animal. It's weird that vets continue to do this procedure.

[and-justice-for-all]

7. Actually trimming the nails can sever the vain inside the nail

and cause extensive damage.

[REP]

13. Not really, if you mean the quick

Any vet tech can show you how to do it. It's quite simple; only the sharp tip needs to be removed.

[litlady]

17. Agreed - I've trimmed cat nails for a good decade and not hit the quick. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

29. It can, but only if the nails are cut too short.

As others have pointed out, it's pretty easy to learn how to cut them the right way. The hardest part was learning how to hold the cat so it doesn't squirm too much or try to bite.

For people who are too skittish about clipping, there are nail caps ("Softpaws)that prevent furniture scratching.

[davidpdx]

100. I am very skittish about clipping our cats nails and won't do it

My wife does it and I usually hold the cat. We do it every 2 weeks.

[Dappleganger]

129. Yes it can.

And if you have a kitty whose nails split regularly, resulting in sharp point that tear down to the quick that is prone to become infected, that's not going to be helpful to them.

[Gormy Cuss]

142. Realize that even if SF institutes a ban there would be exceptions for medical necessity.

For the cat you described a vet may concur that declawing is better. For most cats however it's not medically necessary and provides no health benefits -- it's strictly for the convenience of the owners.
That's why it's a hot topic. It's like docking tails on dogs or clipping their ears -- most of the time it has nothing to do with the well-being of the animal.

[ProfessorGAC]

207. I've Been Trimming Kitty Nails For 30 Years. Never Even Close

Never had a problem. Never hurt the kitty. They just sit for the minute and a half it takes. No muss, no fuss.

One would have to be negligent, blind or have a complete lack of trust from their cats. Mine just sit on my lap until i'm done.

And, they are CLEARLY more content when their claws aren't getting stuck on blankets and throw rugs.

Better for us, better for them.

Seems like win-win, to me.
GAC

[and-justice-for-all]

5. I can not imagine what my furniture and my legs would look like

if I did not de-claw my indoor kitties. Outside Cats I would not do so, but I think de-clawing indoor Cats is fine. Indoor/Outdoor Cats I would not de-claw either.

[REP]

10. My furniture looks fine with 5 unmutilated cats

I have pretty good furniture, too but there's no furniture worth harming a creature who can feel pain over. Cats can be trained - it's the human that's often the problem ("too hard" "too busy" "declawing is easy" etc).

[Maru Kitteh]

+1 ...... - 4 unmutilated indoor cats here

[Luminous Animal]

30. 3 cats here, 6 others over the past 20 years

and none have scratched my furniture.

[and-justice-for-all]

39. Yeah, all the ones I have had have been fine...

they do not have any malformations or infections from the surgery and they also heal quick.

I have had 5 kitties over the past 15 years.

[Lorien]

141. Four here too. No problems. The EU has already banned paw mutilation

all you need are sufficient scratching posts.

[tblue37]

167. You must be a fan of Maru, the WonderCat with the bag on his head,

who jumps in and out of tall boxes. I worship Maru.

Those of you who have not seen Maru, follow these links and laugh your fannies off! He is very smart and creates his own games to amuse himself. My favorite is the one where he puts a bag on his head (with a small hole in the bottom he can see through) and then walks around the apartment, from room to room, obviously enjoying the different perspective on his environment. But the other two are very funny, too.

bag on head vid
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofrSio_jZO0

big box vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdhLQCYQ-nQ

sliding wildly into boxes he really cannot fit into
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ6hkUbYb0

[Maru Kitteh]

189. OMG. I'm *DYING* over here! That Maru looks JUST LIKE my Maru !! (pic)

Thanks so much for those links. What an adorable kitty! I love it!

Here is my Maru.

[tblue37]

197. Your Maru is beautiful! nt

[HCE SuiGeneris]

202. You forgot one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_AbfPXTKms&NR=1

:D

[tblue37]

204. Actually, I had never even seen that one. Thanks! It's

adorable--as all of his vids are. (There is actually one more, but I didn't include it because it's boring. He is supposedly playing with a toy mouse, but he really is just watching it, because his human is making it move too fast.)

[hyphenate]

19. I remember years ago, I had a wicker clothes hamper

which I had gotten for about $15 at that time. And the cats loved it--to pieces. I found they just weren't into destroying anything else if they had the hamper. So I usually would let them go at it, and figure that $15 was a bargain compared to every other option!

(And yes, after that, I kept buying hampers for them to kill, and I only had to do it every couple of years.

[litlady]

27. 5 here as well...

we have lots of scratching posts and pads that they happily claw up. It was very easy to train them not to scratch furniture with a simple "no" when they attempted it and a removal to a pad or post when they exhibited scratching behavior.

[MzNov]

35. Shelters are full of poor kitties

who were given up because they scratch a couch or did some other thing that could have been avoided if the owner had taken just a short time to address the behavior. As you know too, cats are not dumb. All I ever needed was "the look" and once in a great while a little water spray bottle.

[tblue37]

168. I train my cats with finger snaps. A snap, accompanied by a

firm, "Heeeey!" means no. Soon I just have to snap my fingers and they know to stop whatever they are doing that they shouldn't do. I also clap to call them to me. (I teach, and I sometimes lose my voice. It helps to have nonvocal signals, for when I can't speak out loud.)

[MzNov]

175. exactly! nt

[FarrenH]

24. Cats climb and grip things with their claws

As one poster implied above, its the equivalent of lopping off the last digit of your fingers. It causes cats immense disorientation and stress to have all their claws removed. I am absolutely horrified that you think your furniture is more precious than the mental wellbeing of a living creature with a sizeable brain. Do you lack natural empathy?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[REP]

38. I'm almost with you

Declawed is better than dead, and some people really don't know and believe what unscrupulous vets tell them. I'm willing to the benefit of the doubt, because as much as I disagree with declawing, the life of a stray is so much worse. It's a horrible bargain that with more education maybe won't have to be made.

So my gut says, "Right on!" but my head says, "maybe he really didn't know, and at least they have a home."

[Luminous Animal]

66. The San Francisco SPCA and Pet's Unlimited,

the two top cat adoption centers in San Francisco, will refuse to allow a cat adoption if the owner's intent is to declaw. Both have an education process, both require an adoption application, and both retain the right of inspection of the home. I do understand that the life of most feral cats is brutal and short but I can't support mutilation for convenience.

[MzNov]

154. You are certainly correct about the convenience part

one of the techs at the SF Humane Society once told me that cats had been returned because they did not match the owners' furniture! They probably declawed too.

I'm so glad this law is going further and hopefully all of CA will be covered soon. I've worked with cats in rescue and as pets for so many years, my heart breaks all over again every time I see someone who defends declawing.

:-(

[and-justice-for-all]

48. Dumb..nt

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[REP]

57. It's "you're" and they use their front claws to climb

You're welcome.

[raincity_calling]

148. I do not condone the practice however my cat has been

declawed (she was like this when I adopted her) and she gets along just fine. She is very agile and is not disoriented or stress out. As a matter of fact she is the most laid back cat I know. So, I think there is a lot of misinformation out there about the effects of the procedure.

[tblue37]

169. I mentioned above that I often take care of the stray declawed cat

that a friend adopted. I have a cat tree in my apartment, which she loves, but she often starts to fall from it, since she can’t grip with her front claws. Fortunately, my cat tree is by a bookshelf and a couch, so she can save herself when that happens. But when he bought her a cat tree, he didn’t put it by anything, and she kept falling off it, until she got to be afraid of it. He returned it to the store, but after watching her play on my tree, he says he will get her another one and put it near something so she won’t keep falling off. I think it’s sad that she can’t enjoy climbing the way she is meant to climb.

[MzNov]

34. No, it is not fine.

You need to be more educated about the effects of de-clawing and also take more responsibility for making sure your cats do not claw you or your furniture.

The cities in CA who have already banned de-clawing know what they are talking about.

Declawed cats become biters, among other worse habits.

No one who values their material objects more than sharing life with a pet should have animals in the first place.

[and-justice-for-all]

41. I am quite educated thanks...nt

[Luminous Animal]

45. Perhaps, but not about cat mutilation commonly known as declawing. (n/t)

[and-justice-for-all]

46. My Cats are not Mutilated...but thanks for your concern..

I have 3 very healthy felines.

All of which still 'claw' at things just like if they had front claws.

[Luminous Animal]

70. And instinctual scratching proves what?

And, if I cut off your fingers to the first knuckle, I would, indeed, be mutilating you.

[and-justice-for-all]

72. Yes, they instictually stratch like normal...even without front claws..

they are not mutilated..

[Luminous Animal]

81. But they can't scratch. I had a mastectomy and I sometimes get an itch

that I cannot scratch. It drives me crazy and I even end up using a hairbrush on the scar in an illogical quest to find relief. The fact that your cats go through the motions of scratching does not mean that they get the satisfaction of scratching. Of course, we cannot know but what we do know is that purposely cutting the ends of any creatures toes is and amputation and mutilation.

[anigbrowl]

143. Yes they are. Just as surely as you would be, if...

you had had your fingernails surgically removed. Just because it was done under anaesthetic doesn't alter the fact that you've removed a part of them that normally grows. The instinctual scratching proves nothing. If you had had your fingernails removed you'd probably make do with your fingertips for a lot of tasks too.

enjoy your furniture, you sad person.

[tblue37]

170. Not the fingernails--the entire finger, up to the first knuckle.

Merely removing a human's fingernails would not be anywhere near as drastic a mutilation as declawing is.

[harmonicon]

153. apparently not, based on your previous posts

[MzNov]

159. Here's a start

from Best Friends Animal Sanctuary, one of the best animal shelters on earth

http://www.bestfriends.org/theanimals/pdfs/cats/declawing.pdf

[hyphenate]

200. I certainly appreciate

you adopting kits, but if you will do me a small favor: do a scope of different sites that cater to animals (cats in particular) and their lives. See what they have to say about the procedure of declawing, and why they oppose or accept it. If you want some basic sites, I would choose Petco, the Humane Society of the U.S., American Humane Association, Best Friends, American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, etc. If you really want to see what these very dedicated groups think of the declawing, you will hear from veterinarians, advocates, and other people who deal with animals all the time. I would also throw in there the Pasadena Humane Society, which is one of the most progressive groups in the country, and a site called Snik Snak, which is run by some rescue people. As a matter of fact, here is a link for you, with illustrations showing declawing http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/declaw.html. Please, if you will, read it carefully. And look at the other groups' sites, and then, when you are finished, would you please let us know if reading about the procedure and all the caveats mean anything to you?

It's not going to matter to you about our own impassioned pleas and discussions, and I know for a fact that I kinda go in the opposite direction if anyone tries to convince me of anything! But if all the animal organizations give you detailed information, you might hesitate a little, because to me, all of these groups share one thing is common: they love animals.

That's all I can ask--just a chance to see if you feel a little different about the subject after you have read facts, and not subjective discussions.

[Dappleganger]

125. Become biters?

That's news to me, and definitely didn't occur with our two declawed cats.

[litlady]

128. Depends on the cat, certainly.

I have seen some cats become biters because that is their only defense mechanism. Others (like my childhood cat) can become really scared. But of course some will have no problems.

[iris27]

161. Happened to one of my friend's cats.

She got her already declawed, turned into the shelter that way. And it quickly became obvious why she was turned in...she would bite for any number of reasons, and sometimes without any provocation whatsoever. Hell, she'd even bite while being petted - while purring! Luckily my friend is the biggest animal lover I know...but she went through a lot of Neosporin before that cat passed on.

[anigbrowl]

140. Get a scratching post and stop complaining

WTF, your cat might claw you occasionally and...what? you won't bleed to death.

[Lisa0825]

155. 1) Domesticated cats belong indoors. 2) My cats claw my stuff and I couldn't care less. nt

[tammywammy]

187. 2 indoor kitties here with claws

My furniture looks the same as when I bought it. They never scratch the furniture. I trim their claws myself, never hit the quick.

[lindisfarne]

6. Banned in Great Britain. n/t

[litlady]

8. Declawing is inhumane and is banned or discouraged in nearly two dozen countries.

It has various negative effects on cats and is usually done by selfish humans who care more about their furniture than their family member. That may be direct but I don't see any other reasons. I adopted a declawed cat and he had balance issues and was scared of everything for most of his life. I don't understand why it is still legal here.

[Ohio Joe]

9. I showed this to my cat, Animal, and she said

"Try it... we'll see who pulls back a bloody stump"



Hey! I'm just relaying the message :D

[Maru Kitteh]

21. How pretty! She looks just like my Chessie girl. :-)

[Ohio Joe]

25. Thank you!

She is getting up in years, she'll be 17 this Christmas. Still mean as a snake though... well, to anyone but me :D

[chatnoir]

82. Wow, what a beauty

S/he looks just like our Thora. :)

[valerief]

11. Sure, if they ban pit bulls, too! nt

[hyphenate]

12. This has been one of the most divisive topics

in animal welfare for a very long time. I come out on the side of NO declawing personally, and I think it's one of the most horrific things someone can do to a cat.

However, as an animal rights activist, I realise and know that some people will never adopt a cat with claws, simply because of the old wives' tales about them scratching furniture or anything else that might be considered "precious" in the house. As a result, there are and would continue to be, too many felines that would never get adopted and that would be put down as a result.

So where do you start? Perhaps the solution is teaching prospective adopters that claws don't need to be removed in order to make a cat from scratching household items. Training them right from the start to use a scratching post, using pedi-paws, or one of the many nail "caps" out there are pretty good hedges against cats ruining things.

And yes, that means that education needs to be done in any city or town that makes declawing prohibited. A certain portion of adoption fees should be used to teach people exactly why declawing is so awful. Not only must you then make sure no declawed cat is allowed outdoors, but also showing that a declawed cat has no way of defending themselves if they do manage to escape.

I'm glad to hear of these declawing bans, but it really needs to go much further in making people understand WHY this is so.

[pyoom]

16. This is an excellent point. nt

[noamnety]

23. we did it with mine for somewhat different reasons

I had the cat, I was fine with her having claws.

Then I started dating husband, and once that was an obvious serious thing, we had a problem. Every time her claws would touch his skin (not clawing, she doesn't do that, just relaxing and the claws naturally stick out some), he would get horrific hives from it. It was like doing the scratch test at an allergy clinic where they don't break the skin, they just press it, and put the oils or whatever on you to see the skin reaction.

The front declawing was the compromise so she wouldn't have to go to a shelter. He's really vigilant about washing his hands every time he touches her, but the claws were more than he could handle for medical reasons. She was probably 2 or 3 years old then, she's 16 or 17 now curled up next to me. I wouldn't do it without serious cause, I wouldn't have done it if it were just my life affected by it, and I wouldn't have gotten a cat if I was already in a relationship with someone who was that allergic to them, but honestly looking at her curled up here next to me, it's very difficult to view her as an abused traumatized animal.

[misanthrope]

150. He couldn't wear sleeves around her?**nm

**

[noamnety]

174. It was his hands as much as his arms

but no, he was not willing to wear michael jackson style gloves and long sleeves in his own home 24/7 for the next 15-20 years for a cat he didn't especially want to begin with.

[misanthrope]

183. Sounds to me like...

...this, "...for a cat he didn't especially want to begin with," is the key part of the phrase.

I remember dating a woman once who let it be known she wasn't fond of having my dog around. Her pooch was different because it was a "purebred." I wasn't sorry to see her go because it might have been the dog at that time but it wouldn't be long before she continued to try and reshape me to her liking.

We all make our own choices for our own reasons, I guess.

[noamnety]

184. We had compromises all around, for sure.

He married into the cat, he puts up with her, feeds her sometimes, sometimes changes the cat box and for more than the last decade, he's been coping with allergies because of her. I can't blame him for being ambivalent about that - if he had a ragweed garden and I had to put up with it for the last decade, I wouldn't exactly be embracing that as part of the relationship. So I get to keep the cat, the formerly feral cat got a home for the last 16 years instead of dying in the wild or being put to sleep by the humane society, and the husband got ... well, I can't think of anything he got in that deal except a decade of stuffy noses, but he's a good sport anyway.

[hyphenate]

201. Funny

I remember many of my friends talking about how their pets actually chose the mates in their lives.

The sequence kind of went like this:

Meet person. Talk. Mention the pet, watch to see how person reacts. If he/she doesn't make a big case of it, fine. However they make a production of it, time to drop that person immediately.

On to step two: ask person if they want to come and have some coffee/tea/drink of the moment in your apartment/house/condo. If they come, have Fluffy or Rover in another room so they can't see them. Have person relax for a little while to see if they mention your pet in some context. Toward the 2/3 time mark, go and open the door where Fluffy or Rover is, and see what happens. You will either have the pet wanting to kill your date, or sucking up. Somewhere in the middle usually means that Fluffy or Rover hasn't made up their mind yet.

Step three: There will be a moment when pet or date will make it demonstratively easy to tell whether date will stay or leave and never come back. The pet's reaction to said date will be a growl or a hiss, and that's the end of your date. Your date's reaction will likely be he/she forgot they have to wash their hair--immediately.

If pet and date immediately connect, on the other hand, you can start reading wedding magazines, and count yourself lucky you found soulmates in both two legged and four legged versions. :)

[LWolf]

53. I agree that the place to start is

to teach cat owners how to teach cats not to scratch furniture.

I could use those lessons myself. I'm 49, I've lived with cats all of my life, and my furniture shows it. I don't have a single chair or couch that isn't scarred. My cats have always had access to scratching posts. They prefer furniture.

Scarring up furniture isn't an "old wives tale." Cats will scratch furniture, even when they are offered alternatives.

While I also oppose de-clawing, I have to say that it is absolutely NOT one of the most horrific things one can do to a cat.

How about tying a litter of kittens up in a sack and throwing them into the river?

How about the torture and abuse of black cats that has caused some shelters to refuse to adopt black cats for a period before Halloween?

All of the things that humans do to deliberately harm cats are much more horrific than misguided pet owners wanting to protect their furniture.

Education is the key. Cat lovers don't declaw them to hurt them. They just need to understand the process, and the consequences.

[pyoom]

55. I agree. I think most pet owners care for their pets and just

need access to quality veterinary services and the information to allow them to make an educated decision.

[litlady]

61. Good points - education is always the key!

My current crop of cute kitties doesn't scratch the furniture but I have definitely owned a cat that could not be taught. However, soft paws or nail trimming are still better than declawing.

Agreed about the more extreme offenses against cats. When I was young I witnessed a few horrible things such as a poisoning, a black cat hung from a tree, and many abandoned cats. All of my current kitties were rescued from lousy situations as well and declawing is not worse than those things but educating cat owners is still important.

[LWolf]

79. I'd never even heard of soft paws

so I looked it up. What a great idea!

My cat is an indoor/outdoor cat. She has 6 acres to play on, so I don't want to cover her nails. If I were in town, I'd keep her in, and use soft paws. I will definitely pass that on to anyone I know considering declawing.

:hi:

[pyoom]

15. Against the practice for my own cats but a flat-out ban is going

too far.

Personally, I think a pet owner needs to teach a pet to use the tools its been given correctly rather than just taking them away. However, I've lived with declawed cats and they didn't seem in pain or crippled. The practice doesn't rise to the level of cruelty and thus I think any governmental ban of it is inappropriate and, in fact, infringing on the rights of pet owners.

[litlady]

22. I see your point but should pet owners have rights that override those of the animal?

I have worked in pet rescue and have seen cats in pain, balance issues, and personality changes including fear or anger. I have likewise seen cats that are declawed that are let outdoors and cannot climb trees or other natural behaviors. Worse for a cat allowed outdoors, it has no ability to defend itself.

Declawing has been determined to be cruel in nearly two dozen countries including most of Western Europe and I see no reason why cruel practices against animals should not be banned. Though pets may still be considered property, recent laws have been granting more rights to animals, especially pets. If someone cut a human hand in the equivalent location, it would surely be looked on as cruelty.

[pyoom]

32. I'm not sure how to attribute the difference in results.

I'd likely be for banning the practice if, as a matter of course and all cases, it inevitably led to the ailments you're describing. And, certainly, if I was a vet and a pet owner told me they would still be letting their cat outside after the procedure I would strongly advise them against it.

However, cats are generally indoor pets in an urban area like San Francisco. Further, if in many or most cases there is no long-term physical detriment to the cat from the procedure, those cases in which there are could be cases of veterinary malpractice. If vets are simply performing the procedure incorrectly then that would be a training and licensing issue, not a case for banning the procedure outright.

The point made above by another poster is also an important one to keep in mind. Potential indoor-cat owners might be dissuaded from adopting a cat if they don't have the procedure available and aren't sure they'll be able to account, somehow, for the cat's tendency to scratch (through training or an effective scratching post). In that sense this is very much a broader feline-health issue and governmental bans are usually inappropriate for those types of situations.


Posters above mentioned more cosmetic procedures like cropping. I'd be for banning such non-practical surgeries well before I would be for banning declawing.

[litlady]

43. Still have reservations...

The only position in defense of limited declawing that would move me is saying that it would generally benefit feline welfare because more homes could be found. In fact, I really thought about that with your post and the prior poster's reponse. However, I am not convinced that it is better for a cat to be in a home where they are valued less than something as insignificant as furniture. Either way, there is certainly no benefit to the cat to be declawed and thus it strikes me as a procedure almost solely done for the selfish convenience of the owner. No arguments on cosmetic procedures; cropping and other such surgeries are of no benefit to the dog and only serve the vanity of the owner.

[Luminous Animal]

44. My daughter has a friend whose finger was blown off 2 years ago.

Her friend (sans 1/2 of an index finger) is not in pain now. But she was for a very long time. "Declawing" cats, a misnomer, it is amputation and cats after suffering through such amputation will not have the luxury of wheelchairs or any other useful apparatus while they are healing. They are forced to feed, drink, and use the litter box (and, by instinct, scratch at their litter) all on post-op amputated feet. "Declawing" is not practical, in is downright cruelty and any cat owner who feels the need to engage in such perverse practicality should consider owning fish instead.

[and-justice-for-all]

51. complete exaggeration...

You make it sound as though their back lags have been removed.

When in fact, there is no real harm in de-clawing the fronts. My cats, as do all the other de-clawed cats, are NOT at all for loss of functionality. My Cats are very health, they still scratch at things just as they would with claws.

I have also NEVER had any little box issue with them because their fronts were de-clawed and my Cats never go outside either, so I am sure you would find that be a Gitmo like and evil as well.

[Luminous Animal]

54. "Declawing" is amputation of the cat's toes to first knuckle.

That is that.

[and-justice-for-all]

58. Bullshit...

They walk and act normal, they are not handicapped because of a front De-claw and that is that.

[REP]

63. Jesus fucking christ. Yes it is. Know what the fuck you're defending. Google is your friend.

Defend it all you like but for fucks sake - know what the helll you're talking about.

[pyoom]

64. It is an amputation but I haven't personally seen the loss of functionality

for indoor cats that other posters have described.

When an ex of mine and I moved in together, she brought two declawed female cats. Being against the procedure myself, I did get down on her for having taken such useful gifts from them but she told me that if she had not had them declawed she may not have gotten them at all- and they were both shelter-adopted.

She was an extemely caring parent for her cats and they were totally fine without the claws.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[litlady]

74. Don't think you were talking to me but just in case...

I have been on DU for nearly two years; I just don't regularly post. I am most definitely not a fundy nutter and we would probably agree on many other things. However, I deeply disagree with surgeries for the owner's convenience. I also have indoor cats rescued from the street or a shelter and thus I respect your doing that. But cats should not be declawed and I have personally seen negative side effects of it in one my cats that I had for nearly two decades.

[and-justice-for-all]

80. So I would assume that you have not had them spayed or neutered either..

I mean, after all, that takes away from the Cats natural instinct to breed.

[litlady]

90. Of course they are fixed!

Because that is for their benefit (lessens diseases such as cervical cancer) and prevents many more cats from being euthanized. When fixed young enough, cats do not notice their lack of hormones. However, many cats will stay aware of their lack of claws. There is no reason to declaw a cat, but it is unethical to not spay or neuter an animal.

[and-justice-for-all]

103. Sorry, but you can not have it both ways...

Taking away any of the cats natural functionality is, by some definition, cruel and barbaric.

so your answer is void. Either front de-claw and spay and neuter are cruel and barbaric or they are not. Both are a physical alteration of the animal.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hyphenate]

205. I don't want to butt into a private argument here

but I thought I would make a couple of points, if you don't mind.

If you have checked out some of the sites I listed last night in a prior post, you will see the effect of declawing on the majority of cats. Not every cat will react the same way, and a large part of the cat's behavior will depend on what stressors are a part of their life.

However, comparing cat (and dog) sterilization with declawing is not really a fair comparison. Every day, pet overpopulation means that millions--yes, millions--of animals are put down every single day as a result of people not having their pets spayed or neutered.

Every species, including our own, is geared to nature's necessity for its continued existence. For example, there are more rabbits during a year when a predator has a healthy population, and less when there are less of those predators. Rabbits are "food" for a lot of carnivores, and that's one of the reasons why they procreate at an astonishing rate. Elephants don't need to have that kind of a life-cycle, and they produce less progeny, and have a longer gestation period.

Cats and dogs are the same way, except that they don't mean to be. They have been domesticated for millennia, and their numbers should have adjusted over those years, to a point where they have a smaller litter. However, for some reason, many cat litters consist of more kittens than it is able to cope with, and there is a severe overpopulation of then.

It is therefore in the best interest of the family to have their felines, and yes, their canines, sterilized to keep them from breeding. It IS in the best solution for most people and their pets, because lower the numbers, and you lower the number of animals that will get euthanized as a result.

I am personally not fond of cat breeders, because they continue to experiment with their animals and therefore end up with multitudinous animals that they will reject, and cause more litters born which they have very little interest in. They end up breeding freaks and mutants that often don't live past birth. Yes, while this a small percentage of the whole, I find that ANY animal born in such a manner should be protected and loved. And like greyhounds, breeders often kill these interim "links" along the way.

Our children and grandchildren are losing their compassion, and we hear horrendous stories every day about animal cruelty cases, and I've gotten to a point where I can't deal with it anymore. I have friends who try to keep those cases from ever surfacing in their minds, but if they won't look, who will?

I'm not going to talk about some of the horrors I've become familiar with through the years, but I can say that some people should be locked up for some of their crimes against animals.

Anyhow, this is why you must understand that equating declawing with sterilization is pretty much the "apples and oranges" kind of argument, and different stances on both are necessary.

[REP]

94. Fail.

Sorry. :hug:

[REP]

76. Riiiiiiight, babycakes. Check my profile.

[Luminous Animal]

75. And you know they were fine because they told you so.

Jeesh. Some side effects of declawing:

# Post-surgical complications. Lameness, abscesses, and claw regrowth can occur days or weeks or many years after surgery. In one study that followed cats for only 5 months after surgery, about 25% of cats developed complications from both declaw and tenectomy surgeries (digital tenectomy or tendonectomy is a procedure, sometimes promoted as an "alternative" to declaw, where the tendons that extend the toes are cut).

# Pain. It is impossible to know how much chronic pain and suffering declawing causes. However, we can look at similar procedures in people. Almost all human amputees report "phantom" sensations from the amputated part, ranging from merely strange to extremely painful. Because declawing involves ten separate amputations, it is virtually certain that all declawed cats experience phantom pain in one or more toes. In humans, these sensations continue for life, and there is no physiological reason that this would not be true for cats. Cats typically conceal pain or illness until it becomes overwhelming. With chronic pain, it may be that they simply learn to live with it. Their behavior may appear normal, but a lack of overt signs of pain does not mean they are pain-free.

# Joint Stiffness. In declawed (and tenectomized) cats, the tendons that control the toe joints retract after the surgery, and over time these joints become essentially "frozen." The toes can no longer be extended, but remain fully contracted for the lifetime of the cat. In cats that have been declawed for many years, these joints cannot be moved, even under deep anesthesia. The fact that most cats continue to "scratch" after they are declawed is often said to "prove" that the cat does not "miss" her claws. However, this could also be explained by the cat's desperate desire to stretch those stiff, contracted joints.

# Arthritis. Researchers have shown that, in the immediate post-operative period, newly declawed cats shift their body weight backward onto the large central pad of the front feet and off the toes. This effect was significant even when strong pain medication was given, and remained apparent for the duration of the study (up to 40 hours after surgery). If this altered gait persists over time, it would cause stress on the leg joints and spine, and could lead to damage and arthritic changes in multiple joints.

[pyoom]

78. I know they were fine because they walked just like cats with claws,

did not exhibit symptoms of any kind of pain and even allowed us to touch their paws without any unusual reaction.

[Luminous Animal]

84. So, because the cats you, personally, observed seemed fine...

without the benefit of meaningful communication, it is fine for all cats? Leaving aside the very true fact of animal mutilation, there are quantifiable long term health issues for cats who have been declawed, the casual observations of exceptions to the rule should not be guiding policy.

[pyoom]

86. No. What I'm saying is that at least two indoor cats have had the procedure done

in such a way that it did not negatively affect their observable quality of life, and that, if veterinarians can be trained to perform the procedure with such results, the decision of whether to perform the procedure or not should be left up to a cat's informed owner, most of whom truly do care about their pets.

[Luminous Animal]

95. The procedure is the same for every cat.

The first joint is removed. How the cat deals with the procedure and it's subsequent effects on health and well-being, is up to the individual cat through no conscious volition of their own. The skill of the vet is irrelevant. Any cat owner who amputates their pets cares more about their inanimate possessions than the care about the pet.

It is remarkably easy to keep a cat from scratching. I am 51 years old and I have had over two dozen cats that I've adopted, fostered, and cared for and not one has ever scratched my furniture because I have taken the time to and provided resources to ensure so.


20 or so years ago, my sister and I had a raging argument because she wanted to declaw her first cat to protect her obscenely expensive furniture. I lost that argument but shortly thereafter, she came to visit (we live on opposite coasts) and she witnessed that, even with 5 cats, nothing in my house had cat scratch damage. Nothing. She's had many cats since then and rather than declawing them, has utilized well-known practices to make them happy and protect her furniture, without declawing them.

[pyoom]

101. I have cats with claws intact and although we do have scratching

issues, we have dealt with it effectively. I agree that owners need to consider and try what they can to reduce scratching without resorting to surgery.

However, the practical issue remains and I think your argument holds much more water with regard to cosmetic procedures. Easing the fears of potential cat owners about how their home's quality might be affected will increase adoption from shelters.

Ultimately, it is a trade-off- one I would not make for trivial concerns such as the looks of a dog's ears or tail, but if it means more cats find happy homes- and the ones I've seen, again, have been happy- then I think it's a good one to make as far as the law is concerned, particularly in a mostly indoor-cat city such as San Francisco.

[Luminous Animal]

109. I don't know why you assume that most cats live indoors in San Francisco

It is mostly a residential city with connecting backyards and most people that I know let their cats wander outside. The two top cat adoption centers in the city are decidedly against declawing.

[pyoom]

120. Well, I assume most cats live indoors in the city because in densely-populated areas

outside cats have a decidely shorter lifespan than indoor cats (and actually in rural areas, too). I mean, we are talking about the health and quality of life of a cat.

In densely populated areas, there are the dangers of getting hit by a car or other traffic issues, being exposed to and maybe stolen or abused by strangers, disease (as in rural areas), and other animals such as dogs, raccoons, rats, ticks, mosquitoes, and especially other cats.

I've never had any hard-and-fast rule of my own about whether cats should be kept inside or outside. It seems to me to be highly situational, but know that a cat is happiest when it is able to spend a good amount of its time outside (the inside/outside cat). However, when the dangers outside the home pose such a risk to the cat that I can readily see it being injured or killed given years of exposure to it, I'm much more likely to keep it inside.

Cities are big and busy and in them those dangers are high. It's just my opinion, but if I lived in San Francisco and cared about the health of my cat, I'd keep it inside.

[Luminous Animal]

137. That is because you do not know the terrain of San Francisco.

Most of the city's blocks have a wide swath of connecting back yards where the cat's hang out. They don't go out into the street because there is no need to. The sound and fury of the street out front is frightening and they do not like it all. Whereas, the peacefulness of the trees, flowers, sun, butterflies and bees in the backyards are far more attractive. Cats in the most parts of the city don't hang out front in traffic. They loll about in back in the gardens. I was far more worried about my outside cats when I lived in the suburbs than I do living in the city. In the suburbs, there was little enough traffic to give the cats a sense of security and just enough to turn that security into danger. As far as other dangers, the other cats get along quite well. The only time that we had problems with cat fights was when a non-neutered male moved into the neighborhood. On a sunny days there are as many as ten of them lazing about on the roof an old carriage house two houses away, they know how to stay out of the dog yards (though they might tease a dog now and again by walking along the top of a fence) and, oddly enough, they seem to have worked something out with the raccoons. I once watched one of my cats walk out the cat door at the same time a raccoon was walking in. We don't, fortunately have ticks, and mosquitoes are rarely an issue we get, like, seven a year. (I grew up on Lake Huron in Michigan and in Delaware so I know mosquitoes.)

There are, absolutely, parts of the city where allowing a cat to go outside would be folly. But, as much as I adore cats, if I lived in that part of the city, I wouldn't have one. There is a nothing like working in the garden and watching your best furry pal living the good life beside you.

[pyoom]

139. Again, like I said, it's highly situational.

I do know San Francisco and most areas I would not consider welcoming to an outside pet. However, I'm sure that it also has many less common areas where the risks for an outside cat are minimal enough to allow it to go outside, and it will be happier for it.

I always remember, though, that across the board and in pretty much all situations inside cats live longer than outside cats. It's just a matter of balancing the cat's happiness for being outside with the level of risk. Population density increases exposure to most of the risks I listed above and trades off new risks for risks seen more in rural areas than urban- trading dogs for ticks, for example, traffic for perhaps more disease. Even relatively quiet, low-traffic residential neighborhoods can carry significant risks for cats just considering the number of pets already cruising the neighborhood, whether from fighting or disease.

But even in the worst neighborhoods there are many potential inside-cat-owners and the declawing issue plays into their thinking. It's important to keep that in mind when setting policy.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

188. Closing your mind to the facts does not alter reality.

It is amputation.

[MzNov]

157. It also affects the muscle in this part of the cat's paw.

A lot of kitties' personalities change quite a bit after their little claws are ripped out.

[and-justice-for-all]

67. +1 and thank you...nt

[azurnoir]

20. I had a cat declawed once 30years ago

and after the horror of that I swore that I would never ever do it again
agree 100% the practice should banned

[Politicalboi]

26. It should be banned

I have Mama Kitty who has destroyed my bedroom screen that she hangs onto when she wants in. Now she is working on the other screen. She really isn't even my cat. She came with the house, and has had 5 kittens last year here with us. I took her down to get her fixed right away. But she is outdoors. I could never have an indoor cat. I think that is cruel too. They need to lay in the sun, eat bugs, catch gophers, birds not so much. I hate when they kill birds. Declawing to me is like cutting your fingers off. They stretch with their claws too.

[LisaL]

77. Cruel for a cat to be indoor?

Is it not cruel if your cat gets run over by a car, attacked by a pack of dogs or is skinned alive by some crazy maniac?

[WillowTree]

104. Interestingly...

....an animal shelter once refused to let me adopt a cat because I said that I sometimes take my other cat outside with me. Their stated reasoning was "exposure to germs". I swear to Heaven, I never heard of such a thing!

Living in a condo, I can't just "let her out", though I wouldn't do that anyway. Too many things can happen to a cat and there are too many sick people who subject them to horrors that I can't even conceive of. But I sometimes take my older cat to the park with me and stake her out on a 6' leash to explore and sniff and do her kitty thing while I read and she loves it. Sometimes I take her to the cemetery with me, too, when I go to tend my parents' graves.

I wound up getting that cat they wouldn't adopt to me by having a friend go in and get her for me. Screw that shelter (where I had adopted twice before, by the way) that would rather keep an animal in a cage than let her go to a loving home because of something like that.

That was the only one of the many cats I've had over the years that I didn't have declawed (or wasn't already declawed when I got them). She was just about two years old when I got her and I felt that that was too late and that it would be traumatic for her by that age. Not one of the others ever showed any signes of after-effects from the declawing and I would do it again so long as my vet was willing to do it. Period.

And by the way, she was the only biter I ever had. When she wasn't clawing up the front hall carpeting.

[flvegan]

36. Good! I won't even use a vet that performs the procedure.

I'm very proud of our most-used vet (our rescue uses around 6 wonderful, charitable and compassionate vet offices) who called me a month or so ago in excitement to tell me that he was no longer docking dogs' ears/tails.

[AsahinaKimi]

37. When i mentioned declawing to him...

This was the look I got.

[DainBramaged]

42. Barbaric. Cats are EASILY trained NOT to scratch the furniture

but what do some people know? My beautiful and beloved (late) Picaso was declawed when I got him. His favorite thing was stretching hext to me on my desk and "clawing" the edge when I sat down, because he was happy. Then the unstoppable head butts began. He did NOT like me to touch his paws, but he never "scratched" anything but the edge of the desk.


I miss him terribly. :cry:

[ZombieHorde]

47. I bet it is still legal to cut off the tip of human baby's penises. nt

[Hepburn]

56. Only on the males....

....:evilgrin:

[ZombieHorde]

59. Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina. nt

[REP]

62. Really? Many TG people will differ with you.

[pyoom]

69. Oh, come on. That's just petty.

In fact, I disagree with your statement. Transgendered people very often will go through surgery to set their physiology in line with how they perceive themselves, using the rule/social norm "Boys have penises, girls have a vagina." Even they wouldn't argue with it.

Yeah, there are the extremely rare exceptions to even that but let's more or less try to stay centered in reality and not argue the pointless.

[ZombieHorde]

71. So would some unfortunate amputees. nt

[Berry Cool]

49. People who want to adopt a cat need to understand that it's a living, breathing creature

and not just a household accessory whose welcomeness in the household is predicated on its not doing anything to destroy the other household accessories.

The sad part is too many people get cats because they want the benefits of having a cat in the house (companionship, something cuddly to hug and pet, etc.), but they can't deal with the downside, such as the fact that the cat may want to scratch their furniture. Their attitude is that anything they need to do to the cat, including declawing, to make the unwanted behavior stop is OK--and if they can't make the unwanted behavior stop, they will get rid of the cat before they will tolerate the furniture destruction. Thus, doing what they need to do to make the behavior stop is justified because it "prevents the cat from being homeless." *sigh*

The negative side of what cats do isn't fun, but I accept it as part of the consequences of cat ownership. Nothing is all beer and skittles.

I think nail trimming and caps are a more humane solution for cats that simply can't be taught not to attack the furniture. And I should know--I own two who cannot be taught.

Declawing a cat because you don't want it to scratch your furniture is like a woman insisting on having her husband's penis cut off because she doesn't want to get pregnant again--and threatening him with divorce if he doesn't agree to submit--rather than saying "Honey, how about you get a vasectomy?"

[and-justice-for-all]

52. ...

:eyes:

[REP]

60. That wasn't explained?

The pain for my custom leather furniture is long over. My cats, however - still alive. Yours, too.

Why so hostile? Why all the rolling eyes and fuck-yous?

[litlady]

68. Agreed - many don't want to accept responsibilities of ownership.

In the pet store the other day there were many giving up their pets to the no-kill agency saying things like "I have allergies," "it's too big now," and "we don't want it anymore." Those are just the ones from the other day. I can't tell you how many people buy pets from a hamster to a dog that don't realize the responsibilities of having them. I have had lots of pets over the years and can say that there may be scratches, bites, urine issues, ruined carpets/blinds/furniture, fecal matter, vet visits, cleaning, general attention, and depending on the pet a few years to over a decade of care. That is the responsibility of owning a pet and so many just give up when that is too hard. Education truly is the key.

[and-justice-for-all]

83. In regards to all the "De-clawing is cruel" crowd....

Have you also not had your Cats spayed or neutered? That, in and of itself would fit into your definition of "mutilation" and "cruelty" seeing that it takes something away from the Cat.

So, I would assume you do not take your Cat to a Vet that practices this "cruel and barbaric" practice. Obviously when you spay or neuter, the Cat no longer functions as a whole Cat. Since some of you are hell bent on NOT altering the Cat in any way, you most not have had the Cat spayed or neutered, correct?

So, if you have had your Cat Spayed or neutered, I suggest you shut the fuck about some one having their Cats front claws removed. Either way want to look at it, it is psychical alteration of the Feline.

[REP]

85. Can you explain the purpose of spaying and neutering? It is to decrease the number of cats killed.

Cats (and dogs) and overpopulated. Unfortunately, surgical sterilization is the best option for reducing the population.

It is surgery I've had myself. Unlike declawing, sterilization is a surgical procedures humans can have done; no surgeon would do perform a procedure similar to declawing on a human unless there was physical damage (crush injury, frostbite, etc).

You know your argument is silly.

[LisaL]

87. Well to be fair neutering is castration.

I don't think it's done on humans all that often.

[REP]

89. That's one way to perform a sterilization

There are others.

[LisaL]

98. What others? Male cats are castrated.

Vasectomy isn't done on cats, if that is what you are trying to imply.

[REP]

106. Not implying. Can and are done.

[LisaL]

115. What exactly "can and are done?"

Do tell.

[REP]

126. The stupid. It burns.

VASECTOMIES and TUBAL LIGATIONS.

OMFG. Please tell me you did know this and can use Google.

[LisaL]

132. The stupid. It does burn. What about

"And to simply do a vasectomy to render the male sterile would not alleviate the scent marking, desire to breed, territorial defense and other testosterone driven behaviors."
don't you understand?
http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/Spayandneuter.htm

[trotsky]

96. Well, devil's advocate here, but declawing also decreases the number of cats killed.

By making them adoptable for more people, like hemophiliacs I suppose or people who don't want the cat to be able to scratch. My cat isn't declawed, I trim his claws regularly, but sometimes one will get sharp out of nowhere and I'll feel it when he jumps on my lap, or up onto my shoulder especially.

Just saying that it's not quite as silly an argument as you are making it out to be. Because really, if it comes down to it, would you rather a cat be declawed or put down because no one adopted her?

[and-justice-for-all]

107. +1 Trotsky...thanks..

and not to mention that their live expectancy is doubled when they are taken in, either from the street or from a shelter.

So, being front de-clawed and taken is is far better then not.

[REP]

113. Not directly; if the cat doesn't exist, it can't be euthanized

Upthread, I did say declawed was better than dead, and hoped with education, that choice would be made less and less. I'm not the hysteric in the thread; it's the pro-declawer who can only see his way or fuck you.

[trotsky]

119. Sorry, didn't see the post where you said that.

But yeah, it's directly (though not in as great numbers as spaying/neutering), because the more people who CAN adopt cats, the fewer that will be killed. And some people will insist on a declawed cat.

[flvegan]

135. That's not completely accurate.

First, why is such a beloved animal, about whom so much care was taken to remove the claws doing in a shelter anyway?

I digress.

I've done a LOT of work with shelters. Because the demand for declawed cats is a premium, I've personally seen and heard of instances where a declawed cat will be kept occupying a cage while a litter of young cats that have been there since they were 8 weeks are euthanized because now they need 7 cages because they've grown but not been adopted.

[trotsky]

172. Uh, I think you've got that a little backwards.

It's not that people look specifically to adopt a declawed cat, but they might want to declaw the cat they adopt. If declawing is made illegal, that isn't an option so they might not seek to adopt at all. So your question is rather ridiculous.

And your anecdotal evidence is duly noted. I've worked with two different humane societies and haven't personally seen or heard of that happening ever. So :shrug:.

[Luminous Animal]

138. There are numerous ways to keep a cat from scratching without amputation.

I'd rather a person utilize any or all of them rather than mutilate a cat.

[trotsky]

173. Well sure in an ideal world.

But if the choice is between declawing and euthanasia, which would you rather have happen?

[LisaL]

179. My cat has allergies so what he scratches is himself.

Would have been a lot better if he didn't have nails.

[noamnety]

131. FYI: You're wrong about the surgeons.

"no surgeon would do perform a procedure similar to declawing on a human unless there was physical damage (crush injury, frostbite, etc)."

There are surgeons who perform toe amputations on women so their feet will be pointier and fit better into high heeled shoes.

I realize the ethics are different because the women have a say in it, whereas cats don't. I'm just pointing out that surgeons in fact do similar procedures on humans who have no physical damage.

[Luminous Animal]

88. Hahahaha!!!

Spay or neutering does not impede quality of life. Just ask my husband who has been snipped. Or my sister who has been cauterized. But, I doubt either one of them would have volunteered to have their fingertips cut off.

You did not have your cat's claws removed, you had part of their toes amputated.

[REP]

92. Plus who said anything about not "altering" a cat

Since "altering" is another term for sterilization ...

It's not about "altering" for fuck's sake. It's about unnecessary mutilations that do nothing for the cat. Sterilization prevents unwanted litters as well as certain types of cancer, pyometra and other conditions painful to the CAT, not furniture.

[LisaL]

99. Your husband hasn't been castrated I hope?

Neutering isn't the same as vasectomy. It's castration.
The kind of arguments equating neutering with vasectomy are ridiculous. If castration was done in humans I assure you it would have been considered cruel and impeding the quality of life.

[Luminous Animal]

105. Aahh, just found that out.

Through google. Though my male cats do still have balls. Though, nothing compared to balls on feral cats I've seen. I also found out that male cats can have a vasectomy which could be a great option for an indoor male cat. I think the difference being the quality of life for the cat population rather than the convenience of the pet owner. It really is very easy to train a cat not to scratch your furniture.

[LisaL]

136. Vasectomy isn't a great option for an indoor cat because it

won't alleviate undesirable (in a pet) behaviors driven by testosterone.

[REP]

108. Find out what an orchidectomy is and get back to me

Hint: Lance Armstrong

[LisaL]

110. Why don't you read how the procedure is done in animals.

And it's done to healthy animals so whatever was done to Lance Amstrong has nothing to do with it.

"NEUTER... another term is castration. In this surgery the doctor makes an incision in front of the scrotum and through that incision accesses each testicle. The fibrous coverings of the testicles are incised and each testicle is removed after securely ligating the blood vessels that attach to each testicle. The benefits of having a dog and cat neutered are well documented. And to simply do a vasectomy to render the male sterile would not alleviate the scent marking, desire to breed, territorial defense and other testosterone driven behaviors. Even in guard dogs and hunting dogs, many owners report improved behavior and manageability when the dog has been neutered."
http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/Spayandneuter.htm

[REP]

116. I obviously know far more about this than you do; you seem to be unaware of much

Such as veterinary tubal ligations and ligations of the vas deferens. Nor do you know what an orchidectomy is or that human males do have them performed.

[LisaL]

117. I provided a link and you just run your mouth.

[REP]

118. Talk to yourself much, babycakes?

:hug:

It's okay.

[LisaL]

121. Hah?

You can't support your claims so now you can do no better than insults?
Figures.

[REP]

122. I've supported mine. You run. Bless your heart.

It's okay!

:hug:

We both know I know a lot more about the many, many ways an animal can be sterilized and you learned some new words, so good for you! :)

[LisaL]

124. I personally don't think you have a clue about "many, many

ways an animal can be sterilized."
You have provided no links to support that idea. And even if there are "many, many ways" an animal can be sterilized, what is done to neuter male cats is castration in a vast majority of cases.

[REP]

127. Bless your heart. I know you don't think.

[LisaL]

130. Why don't you quit running your mouth and provide links

to all these different procedures performed on male cats to get them sterilized?
Since you know so much and all.

[REP]

133. What are you babbling about?

Do your own homework, child.

[LisaL]

134. Do you own any cats or dogs?

I simply can't imagine how you could.

[Hallie Burton]

177. You might want to do yours

The word is Orchiectomy, not orchidectomy. Orchid is a flower.

[flvegan]

114. Keep trying to justify your cruel decision.

And use spell-check next time. Jesus.

[Lorien]

144. Er, yeah. Humans legally have THEMSELVES sterilized, but it is NOT legal for

a doctor to amputate your fingertips for cosmetic reasons. Stop being so willingly obtuse; you know that spaying and neutering are done to lessen the suffering of animals, while declawing is done to allow lazy, materialistic people to own pets that they won't have to train or provide scratching posts for.

"And justice for all" is a funny name for someone who doesn't believe in justice for the most vulnerable among us.

[harmonicon]

156. "psychical alteration" - you're a laugh riot!!

Man, when I was cat-sitting for my friends the other week, my girlfriend gave the cat some catnip toys. That was some real psychical alteration of the animals, and without surgery too!!! Would you be okay giving a cat a lobotomy? I bet it wouldn't fuck with your furniture then, and I bet it also wouldn't show any signs of pain.

[Deja Q]

91. Should those in favor of this be compelled to take in every clawed kitty?

:evilgrin:

[REP]

93. I feel as though I have ...

[Luminous Animal]

97. Me, too!

And, in my ideal world, I'd have dozens. I did, once, have eight at the same time. I loved it!

[Ikonoklast]

146. We currently have ten, down from twelve.

Two kittens have gone to their forever homes where their new owners are against de-clawing, two more will go out tomorrow to their new home, same thing, no de-clawing.

Looks like we will finally end up at seven adults and one kitten that has taken a real liking to my son, and sleeps with him every night.

I love all my kitties. They are always pleased to see me when I get home, and I miss them terribly when I'm out on the road.

I don't care if they scratch at the furniture occasionally. I can always buy new furniture; it's just 'stuff', not a living, breathing creature.

[Luminous Animal]

162. Yes! That's it! It's just stuff!

I've never once seen people here post pictures of their sofas.

[LisaL]

178. Maybe because it's DU and not "rate my space."

Plenty of people post photos of their furniture. Just not on this site.

[davidpdx]

102. I agree that declawing is a questionable procedure

but as to passing a law banning it, that seems a bit much. We have a cat and talked about declawing, but chose to instead clip his nails every two weeks. I wouldn't put my cat through the procedure unless it was needed. Too much risk.

[JitterbugPerfume]

112. a barbaric practice

I agree

[Dappleganger]

123. Our declawed Maine coon kitty can climb trees...

open doors with the right door handle, fend off obnoxious dogs, jump onto the fridge from the floor and thwack a balloon until it dies.

We love him dearly but he was destroying our furniture even with regular nail clipping (his nails broke often and became very sharp). If we had known about laser at the time we'd have opted for that procedure, but unfortunately we didn't. We used the laser procedure with the next kitty who needed it done.

Two declawed kitties living in perfect harmony in our home full of other pets, and here for life.

[elocs]

145. I've read that claw damage is the #1 reason that cats get surrendered to shelters, or worse.

Given the choice between probable death and the amputation of their front toe if they could I think most cats would choose to be declawed. It's time people dealt with reality as it exists.

[harmonicon]

158. how do you explain all of the declawed cats in shelters then?

When I was a kid, our first two cats came from shelters. One was declawed (already), and one was not.

[Luminous Animal]

165. You read that, did you?

Where?

[iris27]

180. Declawing didn't save my best friend's cat from the shelter.

After her former owners declawed her, she became a biter since she had no other defense. If probably anyone but my friend had gotten her (HUGE softie heart for all creatures), or if the original owners had mentioned the biting when they surrendered her, she would have been killed - as a direct complication from her declawing.

[Jennicut]

149. My 1 year old orange Tabby Daisy has her claws. She drives me crazy scratching our chairs but I

could never de-claw her. She is my little kitty, I would not want to hurt her.

[Luminous Animal]

163. That is so nice!

But there is a lot that you can do to keep her from scratching your furniture. I've fostered scratcher and the first thing that I do is buy up to 5 cardboard cat scratchers (http://www.petguys.com/-079593113000.html) and put them where cats like to scratch and then I cover the previous favorite cat scratching spot with lawn & garden grade plastic. The cats really don't like the plastic because they can't dig in and quickly switch to the cardboard scratcher. Every day I move the scratchers a foot or two away from the furniture to a designated cat scratching spot.

[misanthrope]

152. I thought humans were supposedly the more intelligent animal...

...but from reading a lot of this thread, I seriously doubt it now.

People ostensibly have the smarts to learn how to deal with cats and their claws. You know how they act, you know what they will do. Take your sizably larger cerebellum and improvise ways to train the cat out of the behavior or mitigate the damage to your material belongings.

My wife and I have five cats and we've managed to find ways to keep them from ruining the things we value. Heavy fabric, duct tape, cardboard and inventiveness can do wonders toward dreaming up "protection" that is easily removed when guests arrive.

Has modern life so derived us of our resourcefulness that we can't deal with this? I hate to see some of these posters put in a situation where they had to survive by their wits in the wild.

[mitchum]

160. Fine with me...as long as I can still have Tom...circumcised

I keed! I keed!

[LLStarks]

164. My uncle is a vet and works for Purina, he believes that front declawing is beneficial to cats. n/t

[Strong Atheist]

176. Belated Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[noamnety]

185. What is the benefit?

I've never heard anyone state that it has a benefit to the cats, only to the owners. (Except an indirect benefit that owners are more likely to adopt a declawed cat)

[chatnoir]

194. "Beneficial"??

I've heard declawing described myriad ways but beneficial isn't one of them.

[saltpoint]

171. Seems like you'd be tinkering with a cat's psychic myth thingy if you

removed its claws.

[UndertheOcean]

181. Good !

[iris27]

182. Good! Next they need to ban tail and ear docking in dogs.

It kills me to look at my sweet, happy mutt and her sad little stump of a tail, and know that some jackass decided to cut off her tail when she was a puppy...and then later decided they didn't want her anymore. She's a husky/akita mix, neither of which is a typically docked breed, so I can't even imagine what the hell their motivation was!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

186. It is a barbaric procedure. I agree wholeheartedly...

as does my feline friend.

[spin]

191. I had my cat declawed because of different reasons...

The cat was a tiny kitten found by a neighbor's hiding in the engine compartment of his car in the winter. The kitten would fit in the palm of your hand.

He told his 12 year old daughter that he intended to dispose of it. She brought it to our house.

For a while the little fellow lived outdoors. We provided food and a small shelter in a cooler with a hole in the side. He was cute and a brave little fellow who used to play with the other dogs we owned. I remember one time a Rototiller that a roomer owned was carrying him around in his mouth. We named the little kitten Grim because his chances of survival were so slim.

I live in a big old house that used to be a hotel with my daughter and her husband and three grandchildren. They own three Boston Terriers.

My son in law came up with the idea of adopting the kitten as an indoor car. He's not real fond of cats but he thought the little kitten had a real personality. We live on a major highway and cats tend to get run over frequently. It was logical that the cat would have a longer life if he lived indoors.

Another factor that influenced my son in law's decision was that the week before I was to move into the old hotel we all had bought, my cat died probably perhaps because of cheap contaminated cat food from China. He wasn't eating his Science Diet so I decided to temp him with cheap cat food. He did start eating what I call "McDonalds for cats" but a week later I took him to the vet and his liver functions were off the chart. The vet talked about heroic procedures but told me his chances of survival were very slim and he would suffer. It hurt to put him down, but it seemed the best choice. (Did the cheap cat food from China cause the problem? Who knows? Two months later the news about cat food poisoning cats reached the news. It could be coincidence but my cat was well cared for and had no previous problems.)

But my son in law and daughter feared that if the kitten had claws, he might damage the eyes of their Boston Terriers.

I talked the situation over with the vet and decided to have the procedure performed.

So now I have a new friend that sleeps with me. He enjoys his life although he is only an indoor cat. He plays with the Boston Terriers all the time. They chase him, he chases them. Sometimes I think he believes he's a Boston Terrier.

Does he miss his claws? Sometimes he has a hard time jumping up on things and seems a little uncoordinated, but he can still jump up on shelves or the high headboard of my bed. He runs down the hallways and is probably the loudest cat I have ever owned. He sounds like a small horse. He still scratches at walls and furniture but does no damage. He uses his litter box without problem. He does nip when you play with him, but never draws blood.

Would I recommend the procedure? No, unless you have good reason. My situation was unique, had I not decided to have him declawed, he would have had to survive as an outdoor cat with a short lifespan where I live.

But he seems perfectly normal and happy.

[ThatsMyBarack]

196. My Goldmine is declawed in the front.

When I first got him, I was still living with my parents who had two (little) dogs. My mom made me get my new kitty declawed so he wouldn't hurt them.

Twelve years later, Goldmine is almost 13, and a happy, healthy sweetheart for a declawed kitty his age. :loveya:

[gmoney]

206. Breaking: SF shelters overrun with unwanted cats.

(eom)