The Perfect Litmus Test for the Wonderful New Unrec Feature!

[yoyossarian]

Funny thing... I haven't seen ANY GLBT issue posts making it to the Greatest of late...
Gee, I wonder why that might be?

This might just be the perfect litmus test to the question of whether
or not unrec is a good idea...

But if you're all for the tyranny of the average, for quashing debate and keeping
certain voices on the fringes at best, I guess it's obviously
an improvement...





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[eleny]

1. I haven't noticed this...

I don't like the new feature, anyway. So, if it's true that a whole group is being pushed away from the Greatest page, it's important to point it out to the DU owners.

[BlooInBloo]

2. The problem is your eyesight....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6045976


EDIT: I posted it a few days ago, and it got to Greatest as well: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6035989

[Bicoastal]

14. Also THIS one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x142254

Posted yesterday. Maybe it was promoted due to this OP, but I highly doubt it.

[BlooInBloo]

16. This is as good a time as any to see if the truth is what matters, or merely the accusation.

[Bicoastal]

3. WRONG. I just found one in 5 seconds. EDIT: Just found another one.

Way to go.

[apocalypsehow]

77. Shhhhh! You and Boo in Blue are absolutely RUINING a factually-challenged rant! n/t.

[lindisfarne]

91. PreciselyThe kind of approach used by OP is more like Palin supporters use than I'd expect from Dems

[LoZoccolo]

4. Recommended. You're right; this is a channel for hidden homophobia. n/t

[Bicoastal]

6. Are you blind?

[TexasObserver]

64. That's simply not true.

There are many unworthy threads started about worthy topics.

Worthy topics have no problem getting recommends, provided they are well presented and lack the shortcomings of this one.

[LoZoccolo]

67. How is homophobia being filtered out then?

When someone presses the unreccomend, they can do it for any reason, even homophobia.

[TexasObserver]

69. Red herring. GLBT topics are being well recommended, when they're deserving.

Some topics are poorly written, poorly presented, and largely nothing more than personal rants, badly done. Like this one. They don't garner positive numbers of recommends because they're lousy threads, not because of any ism.

When you start threads that suck, don't expect posters to recommend them.

[Deja Q]

74. Nail on the head, you hit. And it's just the same for any other topic.

Anyone who thinks the OP (or anyone else who agrees) is a homophobe is full of themselves.

Ditto for others who think everyone else has a problem for voting down their pet issue.

[eleny]

5. After I posted my first reply I noticed that your posting already had an unrec

And then it went back to plain 0.

[Bicoastal]

7. That's probably because the OP is untruthful.

[eleny]

9. How did you suss out their intentions?

Maybe they've been checking out the Greatest page and just couldn't find any.

[Bicoastal]

11. That's possible, but for either reason, it's not a terribly accurate OP...

...and thus perfectly deserving of an Unrec.

[eleny]

20. Thanks

I can see drawbacks to the new feature. I'm far less likely to even Rec a thread these days. I rec'd this one as a test and it was the first one I rec'd since they installed the new feature.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

18. Not only untruthful, but it has no other content value.

A better test would be to post a compelling article and see what happens to it, then report back. Telling everyone that it's a test skews the results from the get go.

[eleny]

26. Maybe there are far less LGPT threads in the Greatest than there used to be

Can't we give the OP a chance to prove their case? I'm already seeing advocates of the Unrec feature calling people names in this thread. I'm less likely to take your side when ad hominem tactics are used instead of discussing the issue with an absence of vehemence.

[TexasObserver]

66. Good topics well presented are recommended. Others are not.

As you note, the problem is not the topic, but OPs that don't deserve recommending. Most posts which start a thread are simply not recommend worthy, period. And those which whine about DU procedures even less so.

[Sinistrous]

8. I may be wrong, but I have sensed a decrease in GBLT posts lately.

Emphasis on "sensed." If the actual activity is still up, please correct me.

[lindisfarne]

62. Wrong. See #57. This shows how easily people can see what they want, when the evidence clearly

shows otherwise. The repliers supporting the OP failed to think critically and note that OP failed to do basic, obvious research.

[Sinistrous]

95. I see thy heart runneth over with love today.

[Uzybone]

10. If you think DU is a homophobic site find some proof

and make the charge.

Its a pretty serious charge so do not fling it around recklessly.

[eleny]

13. Over the years there have been many, many trolls here

I think this feature is an unintentional gift to them.

[Uzybone]

21. The rec feature was helpful to many trolls as well

any slur could easily be bumped up to the greatest page by a few trolls.

[eleny]

29. Slurs can be and have historically been deleted because of the Alert feature

So I'm not leaning toward accepting your assertion. Slurs are not permitted at DU and DUers are diligent about alerting and the mods do an excellent job of responding quickly. If a slur OP ever made it to the Greatest page, it couldn't possibly have lasted there for more than a short time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. The defenders of the "you suck button" are very clear about what they see as benefits

a) topics that are of a limited appeal to a small DU faction don't deserve visibility.
b) the consensus viewpoints, the articles we can all agree on, is the stuff we want. Good stuff, like "Batboy" and "OMG Hillary looks terrible in that dress".

It is not much of a stretch to suggest that GLBT civil rights issues are not issue number one to most DU'ers because we are not personally affected by it. Is it too much to ask that the architecture of DU be designed to at least validate the fact that there are those for whom it is?

I'm straight, so I can only empathize, but when they feel the need for a GLBT justice forum, a mini-DU in which detractors are politely asked to stay away, can you not see the problem?

[Laelth]

12. k&r from me. Didn't help, did it?

Watch your opinion sink into oblivion.

:dem:

-Laelth

[eleny]

15. I followed your lead and recommended but it didn't bring it up from minus zero either

[Bicoastal]

24. Good. This OP is a prime example of content that WOULD make it to the Greatest Page in the past...

...despite the fact that it's full of shit.

[yoyossarian]

31. Hmmm... VERY well-thought-out responses there...

As I read them, you seem to be saying "NO IT'S NOT!" and "YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT!" and like
that there, huh?

I'll have to give that some SERIOUS thought...
Still, I think my initial observations are valid; there may be one or two I overlooked, but
this changes not a whit the fact that I've NEVER seen such a dearth of Greatest posts
on this subject, not until recently...



THE HIDEOUS OCTOCHENEY SAYS: "I HIGHLY
APPROVE OF ALL FORMS OF CENSORSHIP!"

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[Bicoastal]

37. You have proof of said observations, right?

I mean, besides the part that turned out to be untrue.

So me and other DU'ers who like the new feature are guilty of homophobia until proven guilty, eh?

[BlooInBloo]

39. Just the accusation is all that matters. Even after being shown factually incorrect.

[yoyossarian]

27. Thanx, eleny!

Fact is, I've NEVER received such immense response so immediately on
these pages (and I used to post under the name dxstone, so I've over
1000 posts in reality here)... yet my recs are STILL in the negative
numbers...

Strange, huh?

I think I'm on to something here...
Because it IS such a divisive issue, one that even the most brilliant people
are often ill-informed about UNLESS they actually know someone experiencing the
very common repressions, subtle and otherwise, that ALL GLBT individuals are prey to,
I repeat my claim that this may be the BEST test of the worth and efficacy of Unrec...



CHENEY-DOG SAYS "I HIGHLY APPROVE OF ALL FORMS OF CENSORSHIP!"



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[Bicoastal]

32. You're getting an immediate response because you're essentially calling DU a homophobic site...

...due to something that isn't even true.

THAT'S why.

[yoyossarian]

38. I don't think so...

I'm getting an immediate response, I believe, because what I'm saying
has touched a nerve...

And btw, I NEVER claimed that DUers, as a group, are homophobic;
there are many, many cool enlightened people on these pages...

But because it IS such a divisive issue, one that even the most brilliant people
are often ill-informed about UNLESS they actually know someone experiencing the
very common repressions, subtle and otherwise, that ALL GLBT individuals are prey to,
I repeat my claim that this may be the BEST test of the worth and efficacy of Unrec...

Again, there are MANY cool people on these pages...
And many extremely reactionary ones as well...
The extremity of your reaction tells me you're not really all that inclined
toward serious consideration of my argument...
Never mind, then. You're right, I'm wrong. I'm full of crap. I'm SOOOO gay.
Have a nice day.





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[Bicoastal]

40. BRILLIANT stratagem. Grandstand like a mofo, then accuse us of overreacting.

But you'll never correct your OP. Not in a million years.

[eleny]

46. " Grandstand like a mofo", "blind", "untruthful" - and you think the OP is overreacting?

C'mon, B, the hyperbole is clearly on your end.

[Bicoastal]

52. I stand by "untruthful."

The others...ya got me.

What can I say? I'm a stickler for the truth, and proudly sticking by demonstrable fallacies gets my goat.

[eleny]

63. Thanks, hon

The problem I had with "untruth" was that it sounds like your accusing the OP of being intentionally misleading. I took the OP as feeling that LGBT posts aren't on the Greatest like they have in the past.

So I guess we read the OP differently right off the bat. I don't see the point of attacking. After all, you and I could have gone at each others throats but we didn't even though we disagree.

[yoyossarian]

49. I stand by my OP...

I have offered an OBSERVATION, one I find rather telling...
The extremity of opposing viewpoints on this one is also
something I've rarely experienced here...

Make of it what you will.





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[Bicoastal]

50. "I haven't seen ANY GLBT issue posts making it to the Greatest of late." That's WRONG.

Observations are observations.

Facts are facts.

[eleny]

35. Some who have replied found a couple of LGBT postings on the Greatest page

But another who replied to you feels that they see less such postings make it there since the Unrec has been instituted. So it's probably something to bring to the attention of DU's ownership.

Years ago, I'm sure I read that the owners can tell how many threads we Recommend. And that if we go too wild with the number we recommend, they can take action. Could be that I'm wrong about that. However, if my memory on this is right, it's likely that the owners can also track our Unrec's. And that would be a good way to ferret out trolling behavior. I suggest that you take your concerns to Skinner. Every once n a blue moon I take a concern to him and he's never ignored me. Here's the page with Contact info if you decide to go that route http://www.democraticunderground.com/contact.html

[BlooInBloo]

41. Completely off-topic, but I like your photoshop mashups - Up there with SwampRat's.

[Bicoastal]

43. Ditto.

[timtom]

65. I rec'd it, too.

[yoyossarian]

94. Thankee kindly, timtom!

Always nice to see ya on my threads...
:toast:
Not that it made much diff on this one.
Oh well... I guess unrec is working like a charm!




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[LWolf]

17. "The greatest" could be renamed "groupspeak," to accurately reflect the change. nt

[Laelth]

19. Hear, hear! n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Deja Q]

75. Seemed that way before the change...

There has been some marginal improvement for what gets shown ON the greatest page... but if people think misleading threads went away, expect more to bait and switch with subject lines like "Unrec this if you dare!" with minimal content within.

The more things change the more things stay the same. It's all good.

[TorchTheWitch]

22. what's the greatest page?

Seeing as I've only looked at it once or twice in all the years I've been here I must be on the DU outer fringes. Who knew that the LBN, GD and GDP forums where most of us spend our time was the outer fringes of DU.

[The Straight Story]

23. KURD! (nt) (kicked/urecd)

[yoyossarian]

33. WTF???

Care to elaborate, Rainman?



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[BlooInBloo]

34. Possibly it has to do with what you're saying being simply false.

[The Straight Story]

36. It's an acronym

And while I don't think your thread should be on the greatest, think it should be read and discussed.

Pretty simple.

[yoyossarian]

42. Maybe a bit TOO simple...

So if I'm getting this AMAZING response, but no recs, that's not at all
indicative of the validity of my theory?

OOOOOO-K then!
Happy to have been set straight!... as it were...




Now that I know I'm NOT being partially gagged here, but SIMPLY contained,
I feel MUCH better!

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[jimshoes]

25. Maybe there is a way to limit the un-recs to say

5 per day so it might encourage judicious use of the feature.

[The Straight Story]

28. Would you get roll over unrecs if you don't use them?

:)

[bvar22]

44. Tyranny of The Average

I like that. Perfect description.

The Greatest Page is now perfect....IF you like Vanilla Ice Cream.

I prefer Jalapeno.

Maybe there is something to the conservative claim that "Liberals" want to ENFORCE "political correctness" on everyone. (Though I've never called this class of Democrats "Liberal", but they may be the middle of the herd majority.

Oh Well, it was bound to happen.
The Democratic Party is NOW "The Establishment", and the mediocre won't tolerate criticism of Mommy & Daddy. It might force them to think.

[Deja Q]

78. The herd principle with the obligatory mob squads. Doublethink, doublespeak, doublemint gum.

And those mob squads ensure only the allowed content is tolerated.

All that was going on all before the unrec song and dance came about.

What's on the greatest page is immaterial; it's just a shell. Like Britney: pretty on the outside and sometimes fugly within.

The more everything changes the more things stay the same.

[bvar22]

45. I recommended this post....

...but it stayed at less than zero.

A perfect illustration of middle of the herd group think.
Nothing allowed that might rock the boat.

[BlooInBloo]

47. Wow - the fact that the OP is just plain false really doesn't matter to some.

[Bicoastal]

48. Unfounded BS deserves less than zero.

There is NOTHING in the OP that is provable, and parts of it are actually demonstrably false. Why does shit like that BELONG on the Greatest Page?

But I guess since I Unreced this thread, MY opinion doesn't matter. I'm an Orwellian censor, right?

[yoyossarian]

54. Well, SHIT, man!

Shit shit SHIT!

Why are you shitting all over an OBSERVATION?

I never said I had it ALL figgered out; I'm not dealing with
fact at this point, only THEORY...

But this IS the third SHIT you've dumped on my posting now
(including the BS line)...

Maybe you just need to go to the bathroom or something, huh?





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[BlooInBloo]

55. "Why are you shitting all over an OBSERVATION?" - Because it's false...

This has been another episode of Simple Answers To Simple Questions.

[yoyossarian]

51. Thanx, bvar!

Love your avatar!

:toast:

[bvar22]

56. You're welcome.

The Greatest Page SHOULD be about controversy, NOT mediocrity.
The Middle of the Herders have NEVER changed anything.
That is why controversy scares them.

Vanilla sucks, but it IS safe.

[itsrobert]

53. Paranoid much?

Don't answer the door, the men in the white coats are coming for you.

[Iggo]

71. Why are you calling me paranoid?!?!?!

Who sent you?!?!?!?!

;)

[lindisfarne]

57. You did no research to back up your wrong opinion.Since July 8, 1/3 of threads started in GLBT on GP

All you have to do is look at the GLBT page &
see which ones made it to GP.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=221

24 threads have been started in that forum since July 8. 8 made it to the Greatest page. 1/3 of all threads.

These made it:
Events in CA
Mormons arrest gay couple for kissing in Salt Lake City
Rainbow Lounge Raid Rally. FYI. Click here to hide this thread
El Paso police officer threatens 2 men for kissing, citing law UC Supr Ct ruled unconstitutional.
"Some days it just pays to bitch" also made it (is that what you're doing?)
God hates shrimp
Rep Murphy (D-PA) Attempts to Repeal Ban on Gays in the Military
State of Mass. Sues feds over definition of marriage

============
All those jumping on the bandwagon, without doing their own research, simply because they hate the Unrec feature, are being dishonest as well.

[BlooInBloo]

58. Clearly you're anti-gay.

EDIT: :P

[lindisfarne]

60. Yes.I try to be.That's why mine is 1of those threads that was on GP-because DU is so anti-gay. :>)

Amazing how easy one can conduct research to back up one's opinion.

[BlooInBloo]

61. "Amazing how easy one can conduct research" - Prerequisite: caring about the truth.

[TexasObserver]

68. Thanks for proving the original post is based on a false premise.

[lindisfarne]

70. You're welcome. Doing the research took me less time than it took to write the post.Too bad OP didnt

invest some time in research.

[yoyossarian]

76. My premise is that the unrec feature creates an undue negative effect...

...upon ANY fringe group, effectively barring many posts
of real merit from the Greatest Page.

I cannot PROVE my hypothesis... but the reactions I'm getting
here seem to support it for now; I mean, 70+ responses in
less than 2 hours, and NO recs at all?
And I do know several have recced it already; but others have
negated those recommendations with the simple push of a button,
leaving me in the strange situation of having garnered more
interest, yet less recs, than any other thread I've ever started...

I'm not a scientist or statistician, so I cannot properly
evaluate this odd conundrum; I do not even have any way of
knowing how many pos or neg recs I've received, which makes
it even more challenging...

But the venom and vitriol I'm getting from those who see my
efforts as misguided is really rather impressive... I mean,
I basically postulated that the unrec feature will have a
damping effect on free and open discourse on subjects and
concerns well outside the mainstream, and I offered this post
as a test of that hypothesis...

So far, NO ONE has POLITELY attempted to tell me just why I'm
so far off the mark on this...

Ridicule? Yes. Insults? Yes.
Rational discourse? Well, yes, I've heard a bit of that too...
But then again, on a thread of this size, I'm not surprised
at that at all... as I said before, there are still a LOT of
cool open-minded people here...




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[TexasObserver]

80. I provided the reasons in post #69 of this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6048594&mesg_id=6049749

[lindisfarne]

81. deleted; moved to #84; responded to wrong post. n/t

[TexasObserver]

82. I think you intended to respond to the post above mine, not mine.

Wanna take a look?

[lindisfarne]

83. Thanks; I'll move it. Sorry. n/t

[TexasObserver]

87. I figured you'd want to know while you had time to edit.

I don't think we've disagreed much on this topic.

[lindisfarne]

84. It's obvious nothing will change your mind. Absolutely clear evidence against your idea was provided

in #57.

A hypothesis is an educated, testable guess. Your guess was testable. It was tested in as shown in #57. It was wrong.
8 of 24 threads started in GLBT since July 8 were on GP.

From OP: "Funny thing... I haven't seen ANY GLBT issue posts making it to the Greatest of late... Gee, I wonder why that might be? "

You called it "The Perfect Litmus Test for the Wonderful New Unrec Feature!"

You've been shown to be wrong. Using your logic, the Unrec feature is a good thing. Keep in mind - that's your logic.

[Bill McBlueState]

97. more interest / fewer recs

Why is this such a strange situation?

There's a lot of interest in 30-car pileups, but nobody would recommend having one.

[Bill McBlueState]

98. I suspect that 1/3 number is really high compared to other forums

Nothing like good research. :thumbsup:

[Political Tiger]

59. Good lord! You nuts have really gone off the deep end over this unrecc business.

eom

[donheld]

72. KURD

[Crabby Appleton]

73. False - you didn't actually look at the greatest page.

unrec'd

[yoyossarian]

79. Uh, yeah... I actually did...

And yes, I did miss a couple posts...
Hardly negates my overall postulate, though...

At any rate, I think time will tell if there is
any validity to my suspicions...

Meanwhile, do enjoy your newfound super-powers of
being super-rude and super-self-important, won't you?




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[anigbrowl]

85. And yet there were 8 GLBT forum threads there

Basically you're wrong but you're unwilling to admit it, so you insult other people as rude and self-important. Project much?

[apocalypsehow]

86. Sums it up perfectly. I say: "there's not a cloud in the sky," and you reply "it's raining, for

crying out loud!" I get indignant and huffy and say "well, I missed a few clouds, but my larger point still stands!!!!!11"

That's been this OP's modus operandi since they hit "post thread."

[yoyossarian]

88. I made that posting around noontime...

At that time, there were only 2, according to one rapid responder...
As I've said previously, I missed a couple.
And ya know what? It's nice to know that
they ARE up there; as I've said ALL ALONG, I was testing a hypothesis
that seemed reasonable to me at the time...

Not sure it's been totally disproven, though; time will out...

Thing is, these responses I've gotten have been so aggressive;
I'd like to know when I was being rude here...

I am quite capable of being rude, btw... I just haven't been doing
so thru most of this maniacal dogpiling I've been enduring this
fine afternoon...





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[Bicoastal]

90. Yoyo, you probably meant well, but I can't understand how you didn't expect the reaction you got.

From the standpoint of a few hours later, I think maybe you meant "This new function marginalizes LGBT issues," but you said it an a way that (to me and others) clearly implied a charge of homophobia; that a majority of DU'ers were hiding their disapproval of gay issues behind the anonymity of the "unrec" button.

This would have been outrageous enough even if the Greatest Page HADN'T had any LGBT issues posted on it; as it was, it stirred up a hornets nest. When we liberals feel we're being accused of bigotry, we generally want to stop at nothing to prove otherwise; unlike Freepers, who consider that sort of thing "too PC."

In a perfect online world, what you say would usually trump how you say it. Unfortunately, oftentimes the opposite is true. And I STILL think you should have actually looked a little more closely at the Greatest Page before making a value judgement on it--and by extension, on all of DU.

[yoyossarian]

92. That just doesn't cover it, hon...

The idea that there was a "clear implication" of an indictment of a MAJORITY of DUers
in my post is, in a word, LUDICROUS. By this same tortured logic, I read a "clear
implication" in your words that MOST DUers are morons who jump to ridiculous
conclusions based upon NOTHING but the flimsiest of suspicions...

Was I doing the same with my OP? Perhaps I was, to a certain extent; in truth, I did NOT
do a truly careful inspection of the Greatest Page (as I've acknowledged several times
throughout the afternoon); it was enough for me to note that GLBT threads seemed to be in
SOME serious decline there over the last couple days that prompted my little experiment...

Which I now consider a real success, in that the viciousness and relentlessness of the attacks
upon my post (not to mention my intelligence, character, and true motivations) is telling
in and of itself.

No, I do NOT have PROOF here; inductive reasoning rarely yields solid proofs of the sort
many here are demanding... but it IS another intelligent and logical way of investigating a
question, and I think I see quite a bit of validation in the fact that I've got nearly 100
responses here in the space of 7 hours, yet my rec count is still in the negative numbers...

What I posted was and is worthy of intelligent consideration--and the point extends BEYOND
the GLBT community, to other fringe groups such as atheists, feminists, Yanni fans, etc...

I do agree with ONE thing; I should've worded it closer to what you suggested. But that
doesn't begin to explain the shitstorm of angry denial that followed.

I asked a question, I put forward a hypothesis that perhaps "This new function marginalizes LGBT issues,"
and you find such a question outrageous in the extreme?

Well, what else can I say, except thank you for your participation... it's been very educational.




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[anigbrowl]

93. So...you were wrong, but people shouldn't have been so aggressive in pointing it out to you?

Your rec count is negative because (as you say) your OP was actually wrong on the facts. It's OK to be wrong, but you might as well just take your lumps instead of berating everyone for giving you a hard time. I feel you earned it, and that when it comes to rudeness, you certainly dished out as much as you received.

(...)my little experiment...

Which I now consider a real success, in that the viciousness and relentlessness of the attacks
upon my post (not to mention my intelligence, character, and true motivations) is telling
in and of itself.

[ColbertWatcher]

89. I got one up yesterday ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6045976&mesg_id=6045976

[scheming daemons]

96. Your first assertion is false... there have been several LGBT threads on GP since unrec came along

[LynneSin]

99. OMG how are we squashing debate

It's just the DU greatest page not the front page of the NYTimes