Chavez attacks US plan to solve Honduras coup

[Zorro]

Source: AP

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez denounced a U.S.-backed effort to ease Honduras' coup crisis on Friday as a second day of negotiations ended without a deal between rival contenders for the presidency.

The mediator of the talks, Costa Rican President Oscar Arias, said the sides representing ousted Honduran President Manuela Zelaya and de facto leader Roberto Micheletti have agreed to continue talks at an undetermined future date.

While the talks have the support of most of the world community, some leftist leaders object to giving Micheletti the same treatment as Zelaya.

The talks "became a trap that set a very grave precedent," Chavez told a news conference in Caracas.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090711/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup

[geek tragedy]

1. St. Hugo continues to be outfoxed by Obama.

All he can do is bluster and whine. What an ass.

[Dave From Canada]

2. Exactly. His act has gotten really old.

[subsuelo]

3. Make any difference that perhaps Chavez is correct?

"Why haven't they recalled their ambassador to Honduras? Why haven't they supported sanctions? Economic sanctions? Political sanctions? There have been timid measures."

Chavez said he spoke to the top U.S. diplomat for the Americas, Thomas Shannon, by telephone for a half hour on Thursday to express his opinion on the matter.

"They have a military base. Why don't they start some movements there at the military base?" Chavez said. "Or withdraw all their troops? ... Something. Do something. Obama, do something."

I've got no problem with these remarks myself.

Why *hasn't* the U.S. taken any of these measures? That's the question we should be asking. Not this constant crying and moaning about Hugo Chavez

[varelse]

4. You're right

this is a weak response.

[geek tragedy]

5. It's called diplomacy and using dialogue instead

of diatribes. Hugo is just pouting because he's not getting to ride to the rescue and claim credit.

[EFerrari]

6. Psssst. He already did. He rallied all of Latin America around Zelaya.

And I'm sure that if Obama was threatened by a coup, you'd want him to meet with them to negotiate his presidency while our country was hostage to violent thugs. Great idea.

[Billy Burnett]

8. Some times you feel like a coup. Sometimes you don't.

I think foxy and geek might like a coup, of the right kind.


The architects of ALL that is evil ...

[EFerrari]

11. Check out the bobble head dolls that are on the nightstand

behind my anti-American hero.

LOL! I love a man with a sense of humor. :rofl:

[bitchkitty]

109. Hey, I want some of those for my house! n/t

[IndianaGreen]

24. This must be your day off at Faux News

If you want evil, you need to see no further than SOA at Fort Benning.

[Billy Burnett]

27. Never worked for 'em.

IG, I hope you realize it was a joke. :hi:


Viva Cuba! Viva Venezuela!

[Zorro]

30. You have to explain your joke to her

How pathetic.

You two deserve each other.

[IndianaGreen]

33. People are dying in Honduras while you defend the golpistas here

We are organizing here in Indiana to confront our elected representatives and their de facto support for the Honduran elites and for the re-colonization of Latin America.

No mood for jokes!

[Zorro]

38. I'm sure the local Hoosiers know more about the situation than the State Dept

Guess I misspoke about your sense of humor. Re-colonization of Latin America?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[IndianaGreen]

41. The US State Department has NEVER represented the interests of the America people

It has always represented the interests of Wall Street, the bankers, and financiers. The Pentagon are the capos for our oligarchs.

[Zorro]

29. Demonstration of a a rigid, humorless mentality

Attack anyone that doesn't show a slavish adoration of to all things related to Castro or Chavez, even in jest.

[IndianaGreen]

34. Demonstration of your support for torture and murder

as long as your financial portfolio gets fat, who cares about how that wealth comes about.

[Zorro]

40. Yes my portfolio of Honduran securities has really improved this last month

Glad I moved everything out of the Venezuelan stock market; nobody's gonna get wealthy there.

Hugo loves poor people so much, he wants to make everyone poor so he'll be adored even more. Just like his bosom buddy Fidel.

[EFerrari]

44. 22 straight quarters of growth. But, nice if tired disinfo!

[northzax]

48. so tell me

if President Obama announced tomorrow that he was sending 150,000 soldiers to Honduras to reinstall Zelaya, at an estimated cost of $100 billion/year for the next five years. you think Chavez would be applauding? would you be?

or what is your exact solution the problem? if you were President Obama, what would you do, today, to resolve the situation? don't give me 'we are organizing" you are sat down and asked "what should we do, a concrete plan.' so give it up, a concrete plan.

[EFerrari]

52. Honduras can't keep the lights on w/out US support. It's pretty simple.

I read last week that between our various forms of aid and remittances, that's more than half of their budget. :shrug:

[northzax]

58. ok, so you go tell the people of Honduran descent

in the US that they can no longer send money home to their children or parents or spouses or whatever. you figure they'll just stop? we can't stop people sending money to Cuba after 45 years, how you stopping this?

[IndianaGreen]

53. Freeze Honduran assets, close down SOA, fire ambassador Hugo Llorens

Llorens knew of the coup weeks before it took place and failed to notify the democratically elected government.

Freezing Honduran assets, and stopping remissions of money to Honduras from US, will bring the Pinocheletti regime down within days without bloodshed.

BTW, I wouldn't be President Obama, I would be the US first Socialist President.

[northzax]

57. oh, you're amusing

I will give you a dollar for every country in Latin America (oh heck, take the whole globe!) where US Sanctions have brought about a change in government.

let's see:

we have had sanctions against the following nations:

Cuba (embargo since 1964) change of government yet?
Iran (embargo since 1979) change of government yet?
Burma/Myanmar (embargo since 1988) change of government yet?

oh wait, all three of those were imposed after revolutions or coups! yay sanctions!

want more?

Sudan (embargoed since 1997) hey, the sanctions worked so well, there is now a genocide going on that wasn't before! yay!)
Syria
Venezuela (sheesh, you'd think Hugo would get that this don't work by now)
Ivory Coast
Liberia
Zimbabwe
the DRC

how're those working out? anyone? bueller? bueller?

how about a few 'success' stories, just to make it fair? the US had sanctions against Libya for two decades, and Libya finally followed through on apologizing for Pan Am 103. so I guess that one worked. any more we should consider?

[EFerrari]

69. Your dollar would be wasted because our government usually supports

the right wing coup. Next?

[northzax]

80. next? you didn't answer this one yet

name a single time sanctions have worked to effect regime change. written history is 6,000 years old. there are 211 nations in the world (give or take) surely at some point in there, economic sanctions have effected regime change. must have, right?

you are 100% certain this will work in Honduras, so certain you are eager to expose the Honduran people to economic violence, but you can't name a single time it has ever worked. not one! but surely it will this time, cause you say so and shit, right?

so no, not 'next' THIS. since sanctions have never worked, and you want to try them here, what do we do if the play the big cards early and it doesn't work (as history says it won't?) WHAT DO WE DO THEN? if you can't answer that question, perhaps you shouldn't be encouraging the violence to begin with?

please don't respond to me again without furthering this discussion by answering the question posed to you now 6 times. what do we do when sanctions fail to achieve what we want, as they inevitably will? what do we do then?

[boppers]

83. South Africa sanctions?

Iraq sanctions may, or may not, count, depending on ones argument and framework.

[EFerrari]

32. It was a joke. n/t

[Vidar]

7. Good response. The US doen't want to change its malevolent

role in Latin American politics, just beautify it for the fols back home.

[Cha]

20. Bullshit..you obviously don't know

what the Obama admin wants.

[northzax]

18. Well, the US did cut all aid to Honduras

Twenty Million so far. So he's wrong there. And troop movements? Yeah, that will stabilize the situation, getting the US army involved in Latin American politics is always helpful. Fact is, the US got both sides to sit down and talk, that's how a peaceful solution starts. I understand that everyone wants a solution NOW, but backing a military capable of a coup into a corner is not a good way to resolve the conflict. There's a time for Bush/Chavez-esque bluster and a time for Teddy Roosevelt quiet talking, big stick holding diplomacy.

[EFerrari]

25. No, we haven't. Military aid has been cut but the millions in NED $

has not been cut.

[northzax]

45. well, I don't know what to tell you

the State Department doesn't agree with you: http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-07-02-voa60.cfm

I am not sure if Harold Koh has made the technical, legal determination that this was a 'coup' yet, as described in Section 7008 of the US Foreign Relations and Operations Act, but since both his boss, Secretary Clinton and her boss, President Obama have used that language, it's on teh way. I know that as of now, the new Peace Corps class previously destined for Honduras is being assigned elsewhere.

ok, your turn to post evidence that the US continues to operate aid programs in Honduras. officially, we don't. if you know of such a program currently underway, you should report it to the Inspector General of the State Department, because it is evidence of a felony.

by the way, I thought sanctions and cutting aid only hurt the regular folk, and not your average Junta anyway? not sure why everyone thinks it's such a great idea now.

[EFerrari]

46. Read it again:

"The State Department said Thursday it has put much of the U.S. aid program to Honduras on hold pending a legal determination as to whether the overthrow of elected President Manuel Zelaya last Sunday requires an aid cut-off."

And human rights activists on the ground in Honduras back these measures -- like Berta Olivos. The meme that it only hurts "regular folks" is coming from the right wing. Funding the bastards squatting in power right now is hurting regular folks plently. SOA Watch issued a death squad warning last week.

ETA: I hope I got Berta's name right. Amy had her on last week and iirc, there is a communique from her in the LatAm forum.

[northzax]

55. on hold

that means they aren't cutting checks. there is a legal process that must be followed, ok? the law sets down a series of steps that have to happen. Obama can't just wave his magic law wand and change the law. or should he ignore the legal processes put in place by Congress? (can't wait to hear how much people would be squealing then)

as for sanctions hurting the poor and weak more than the rich and powerful being a right wing meme, can I introduce you to a little country I like to call Iraq? we had full sanctions in place for a freaking DECADE. think Saddam Hussein and his cronies running the place ever missed a meal? think their children didn't get medicine? what does anyone gain from bankrupting and destroying a nation?

let's review, shall we? like it or not. the Honduran military is in charge of Honduras now. could we defeat the Honduran Military and return Zelaya to power using force, if we wanted to? of course. without batting an eyelash. could we bankrupt Honduras and send the country into a vicious spiral of poverty and destruction? without even breaking a sweat. but should we? maybe. should we try other options first? maybe.

[EFerrari]

56. It doesn't say all aid has been cut off, That's the salient point here.

And, sorry, I'll take the word of an award winning human rights activist over yours, thanks.

[northzax]

59. all aid? of course not

we didn't cut off all aid to Iraq the day before we invaded them. For instance, we still send vaccines (maybe not as many, but some) we still send some antibiotics. We send food to North Korea (you don't hear much about it, but it happens.

so anyway, let's say you win. we seal off Honduras. Like we did Cuba. and Burma/Myanmar. and Iraq. and Liberia. and Ivory Coast. no trade, no money, no aid. in six months, the military is still in power (let's just go with it for now, I know it will work, but let's think about what happens if it doesn't go as planned) and children are starving in the streets. what do you do? you've already played your cards, the only option remaining is military strikes.

maybe the US administration is thinking about having a decent plan B? I know, after the knee jerk Bush administration, it's an odd thought.

[EFerrari]

62. The military can't last six months without our aid, that's the point.

I doubt they can last three. And, Honduras is already sealed off at the borders because all their neighbors have closed them.

Btw, there is already plenty of hunger in Honduras. Zelaya was ousted precisely because the oligarchs saw him doing something about that via minimum wage, teachers' pay, a few pennies to healthcare. A few pennies was too much for the greedy f#cks.

The last time I heard about a super secret Plan B, Kerry was going to retake Ohio.

[northzax]

64. that's what they said about Cuba, hoss

and Liberia, and Ivory Coast, and...wait, where did they say it and were right, again?

militaries always find a way to survive. always. usually on the backs of the people. Sanctions have never changed a regime.

so, I am still waiting. what if you are wrong? you say you 'doubt it' ok, how many children are you willing to starve (you think it can't get worse? it can get worse, trust me)

so I notice you seem to refuse to answer. you are so certain it will work that there's no need to think about if it doesn't. kind of the Don Rumsfeld of this board, I see. but in international relations, politics and war, things have a way of working out differently than everyone planned. so, I ask you again. what if it doesn't work? anyone have a good idea? President EFerrari is so convinced the Iraqis will greet us with flowers, I mean the sanctions will work, that he/she hasn't thought past it. so anyone want to take on the thought experiment for him/her? what if sanctions don't work? do you back down? do you invade? I mean we agree, they are 99.99999999999, certifiably guaranteed to always work, as they always have, but just for the heck of it, what if they don't?

[EFerrari]

66. Except none of those places were our landing strip.

Honduras is our franchise. None of those other places were as Honduras is. So the comparison doesn't work. But, it's always good to find another Latin America expert here on DU.

And you're comparing me to DONALD RUMSFELD? Oh, brother. lol

[northzax]

70. yes, you're exactly like Rummy

you are so convinced your idea will work, despite it never working anywhere anytime before, that you won't even consider that it won't. you won't even consider it.

[EFerrari]

72. You've no idea what I consider but thanks for projecting all over me.

:shrug:

[northzax]

76. since you refuse to answer

I have to assume you don't have an answer. I have asked you five times what your plan b is, if the big guns of sanctions don't work. so it figures you don't have anything to say. logical, no?

[EFerrari]

78. Right. And you've entirely disregarded the fact that cutting off the money

in this case will work because your comparisons are bogus.

But, wait, I have a solution.

[northzax]

81. see? once again

your answer is "we don't need a plan b, it's totally going to work this time" you're so confident you are willing to stake the lives of poor Hondurans on it. so easy to stake their lives on it, isn't it? heck, you're just an anonymous poster on a message board all gung-ho about it.

but, humor me, what if you're wrong? it is technically possible you could be wrong, right? you aren't a deity of some sort? so what if you are?

[northzax]

110. You promise?

You are 100% certain, so certain that no backup plan is needed that this will work? All you have to do is say that. Something nice and accountable like. I'll take the phrase 'I, eferrari, guarantee that this will work. I stake my entire reputation on the fact that US economic sanctions will effect regime change in Hobsuras within X days' you put a number instead of the 'x'.

[ProudDad]

85. The Cubans prevailed because

they are right...and Socialist...

Right and Socialist will usually beat wrong and capitalist...

[IndianaGreen]

47. We point that out in DU: Ambassador Hugo Llorens knew of the coup beforehand

He hasn't been recalled as EU and OAS have done with their ambassadors.

[bitchkitty]

108. That, to me, is a huge smoking gun -

evidence of this Administration's inability to move beyond business as usual.

[bitchkitty]

10. Outfoxed by Obama?

That was really, REALLY stupid. Did you forget the sarcasm emoticon?

Viva Chavez!

[Cha]

21. Viva Obama!

Yeah!

[IndianaGreen]

23. Obama who won't prosecute torturers, and that is now endorsing a coup

in Honduras, a country that we have raped for decades.

Let's see you enlist in the military, only to find yourself not fighting to defend the interests and safety of the American people but the financial and economic interests of our bankers and financiers.

[Cha]

26. Viva Obama!

Long Live Obama!

[IndianaGreen]

36. Viva the people of Honduras! Death to the golpistas and their backers!

Death to imperialism and its enablers!

[Cha]

37. Viva Obama!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8522840

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bertman]

9. Tell 'um Hugo!! We'll send in the Marines to "save democracy" when OIL is involved,

but when all that is at stake is bananas and the rights of the peasant citizens, not so much.

[Cha]

22. You poor traumatized whatever..

We have a new president now.

[ProudDad]

86. Same old (corporate) shit, different container (n/t)

[EFerrari]

35. When there's no oil involved, we just arm the right wing to the teeth

and flood the country with NED money from State. But we can't take care of our own veterans. :patriot:

[AlphaCentauri]

12. To legitimize the honduran military coup just follow this easy steps

Start talks and prolong them as long as you can, 7 months if necessary.

Make sure those talks keep Zelaya out of the country for 7 months.

Let the US congress debate for 3 or more months a resolution about a coup to gain time for the honduran elections.

Mean while condemn the military coup but don't do nothing about it.

After 7 months celebrate "elections" as it was schedule.

Make a big deal out of those election tell the world that democracy is coming back to honduras.

Select a right wing libertarian as president of honduras, someone who would sign a 100 years lease for a military base there.

Then you have it, everything going back to normal, no more leftist in power and a legitimate government out of a military coup.

[BunkerHill24]

13. Wow! The Associated Press is truly infatuated with Mr. Chazes....

They seem to translate everything he says on "attack" on America.

[EFerrari]

15. They're hilarious. Objecting to a violent coup and repression is now

a "belligerent cause".

lol

[Odin2005]

14. Hugo, eres cargado mierda!

[Name removed]

17. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

19. gusano!

Take your rightwing crap elsewhere.

[boppers]

28. The 60's called.

They want their beret back.

[tkmorris]

39. Dude? Old meme.

Seriously, retire that. And that anti-Chavez LOLcat you've been working on? Yeah, shitcan that too.

[boppers]

42. Yeah, no kidding that it's old.

Just like SoA dog whistles are old, complaints about "imperialism" and nebulous "oligarchy" are old, and all the other rhetorical devices left over from the last century.

Chavez doesn't seem to have gotten caught up.

[EFerrari]

67. SOA dog whistles? Nebulous oligarchy?

Do you also dispute evolution and global warming?

SOA Watch is on the ground in Honduras and human rights activists are calling out the ten families. But don't let information filter through. You might have to do something about it.

[boppers]

74. Calling it SOA=Not calling it WHINSEC.

That's why it's a dog whistle, people are reacting, not analyzing.

As far as, oh, punctuated equilibrium or Beryllium-10 concentrations, I'm happy to discuss both, but I tend not to fall for cheap emotional baiting on issues, or lazy armchair analysis with simplistic results loaded with political catch-phrases.

[EFerrari]

75. Relabeling information as something else seems to work well for you. Cool. n/t

[boppers]

90. Changing names keeps me from being mentally lock-stepped to talking points.

For example, you repeated a right-wing talking point "name" for climate change, and probably didn't even realize it.

It's actually quite a valuable skill in propaganda, the controlling of the way things are "named". Thus, people mentally locked into the name "military coup" remain somewhat self-blinded to the fact that the military stepped out of controlling power immediately after the arrest, and can brush off the fact that this was an act ordered by their courts, and congress, both of which Zelaya has been at odds with for some time now.

[ProudDad]

87. SOA

Still goin' on under a different name...The Honduran military coup -- SOA...

Imperialism = Iraq/Afghanistan/Corporate Imperialism stealing 25% of all resources for 5% of population

Oligarchy = USAmerikan Congress and their owners.

You still haven't "gotten it" yet... :eyes:

[boppers]

97. Oh I do "get" it, alright.

We have a difference of opinion, as to whether or not these are the actual problems, of if they are canards used by people to justify questionable actions.

Lets take, oh, Oil in Venezuela. In that case, I think a natural resource was being unfairly exploited by foreign profiteers, but I don't think the problem was oligarchy within the US government, I think it was bribes and corruption in Venezuelan government, which should (and did) have a light shined upon it.

OTOH, I don't think that same injustice justifies taking over TV stations to broadcast multi-hour screeds about how past, and present, poverty in Venezuela is really all the fault of the US government.

Lets take the SoA boogyman. 61,000 people went through SoA school between 1946 and 2001. 12 have become notorious enough to merit world notoriety. That's 00.000196% of the graduates. (I dunno how many SOAW entries there are, looked for it, didn't find it, let's say thousands?). One certainly can point the finger at SOA/WHINSEC, and declare that if the schools was shut down, Latin America would have less bloody oppression, poverty, and class warfare, but I'm pretty sure that SoA isn't causing these problems. I could be wrong, maybe the screwed up caste system, repression of individual rights, lack of education and food and water, open racism, and class warfare would vanish without SoA.

I'm pretty sure, though, that even if the SoA was shut down, power-hungry individuals would rapidly find a different direction to point a finger at, and blame, to justify increasing their power. How many SoA graduates are responsible for the situation in Cuba?

edit: added an afterthought about cuba

[ProudDad]

100. There's nothing wrong with Cuba

that removing the immoral blockade wouldn't fix.

As for SOA -- they explicitly taught torture for years to low level officers and newly minted death squads, most of whom didn't make Colonel or General, so most of the names of the rapists and murderers and coup functionaries the USAmerikan Empire has trained wouldn't be known publicly.

Now they just teach "counter-insurgency" and mild torture and "riot control" for when the people rise up against yet another coup or to control the populations under yet another oligarchic regime.

Basically though, Militarism of any kind is a sickness and shouldn't be taught to anyone, anywhere, anytime...

-------------------------------

But as for the OP, you do remember that those media empires in Venezuela are the same mega-corporations that supported the coup against Chavez, right?

It's freakin' amazing to me that they're still in business AT ALL!!!

They sure as hell wouldn't be on the air here in the USAmerikan Empire if they'd supported a coup against the hired hands of our corporate capitalist masters!

[boppers]

102. Once more, with less spin!

SoA once taught about the torture and population control methods used against US troops and civilians in Viet Nam. No argument there. They stopped this almost 20 years ago, because this knowledge was being used to torture and suppress people.

I agree with you that teaching Militarism is wrong. I'd even go a step further and say that any military service should be a *disqualifier* from ever holding democratic office.

As far as the OP goes, yes, I'm familiar with the "game" that was played, and have the "handgun shooters on the bridge" video etched in my mind, as well as the way it was spun. As a result, I distrust media control, but I don't think there are "good" kinds of media control.

Anybody who tries to control media, be it for corporate, or government, or religious, or (whatever) control is a liar, and seeking to deceive.

As far as living under "corporate capitalist masters", I suggest seeking different work, and different friends.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

61. Yo Bruno, the beret has been a part of the Venezuelan Paratroopers uniform

for many years. But hey, you're the expert.

[boppers]

68. Metaphors: Not just for paratroopers. eom.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

73. So would you say the beret is ahia or nicht nicht? nt

[boppers]

77. A joke, diagrammed.

<---(the joke)

(me)


"Ach, Ja", vs. "Nicht nicht", perhaps?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

89. Oops I misspelled. So which is it? n/o

[boppers]

91. Depends on whether or not Korda gets royalties?

I still have a weakness for this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_%28photo%29

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

92. What do royalties have to do with it? This is fashion baby. Well let's move on. What are the colors

and fabrics for the upcoming fall season?

[boppers]

93. Oh, the article details it a bit.

The photographer has a strict usage policy, where it's usage for purposes contrary to Che's legacy have resulted in at least one lawsuit, with the resulting money from the suit being donated to healthcare in Cuba.

So, fabrics and colors: Wool, yes, ermine, yes, alpaca, yes, mongoose, no. Strictly bold colors, and plaid patterns, if a pattern is a must....but a nice paisley also works if you're feeling particularly splashy about your revolution.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

94. Good good, that's excellent information. We finally seem to have hit a subject

that you can actually talk about. How about big aviator mirrored sunglasses with a nice military hat and a bunch of medals across the chest. In or out?

[boppers]

95. Oooh, classic fascist style?

I think it's still "in" in Africa, but definitely out for the Western Hemisphere, for reasons of the medals expressing excessive self-importance. A couple of medals are okay, but a whole bunch of them is just tacky.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

96. I think we found you niche. Nobody can say that I'm not helpful. nt

[boppers]

98. On a serious note:

1. It kicks the whole thread, while having a bit of fun, so diverse opinions, even those I vehemently disagree with, get more visibility.
2. More visibility = more voices, more people thinking about, and aware of, an issue.
3. At one point in time, I aspired to go to FIT (seriously).

[ProudDad]

88. Part of the USAmerikan Imperial Army too... (n/t)

[IndianaGreen]

31. The US plan is to re-colonize Latin America

The financial moguls that own the Obama Administration want to turn back the progressive tide that has been sweeping Latin America since Bush got distracted by Iraq.

[IndianaGreen]

43. Did you take some liberties and write your own headline for this story?

Major violation of DU's LBN rules to use the actual title to a story.

The actual title of story is:

No easy end in sight for Honduras coup crisis

Link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090711/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup

On edit:

I go further and say that the story you posted does not appear anywhere in the link that you provided. Were you using another source and by error used the link to the AP story, or did the AP do a total rewrite after you posted story?

[WePurrsevere]

49. OP has an incorrect link. Here is the correct one:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090710/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup

As you can see they're almost identical except for the date (incorrect link to different story):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090711/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup

[IndianaGreen]

51. I missed that '11' see my newer post where I defended Zorro

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3963974&mesg_id=3964747

[WePurrsevere]

54. Thank you. I saw that & you're probably correct. It's unfortunately

not uncommon for sources to change the title, placement or even remove.

:hi:

[IndianaGreen]

50. Looks like the AP did a switcharoo on you, Zorro! And pulled a joke on the rest of us!

Here is the link in question, the one Zorro used when he posted his anti-Chavez LBN story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090710/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup

Using Goggle one can actually find an earlier version of the same story. It so happens that AP (as MSNBC and CNN) has the habit of rewriting a story while keeping the original URL intact.

Remember using the link above? Here is the headline as of Fri Jul 10, 6:21 pm ET:

Chavez attacks US plan to solve Honduras coup

Now here is headline as of Sat Jul 11, 2:48 pm ET:

No easy end in sight for Honduras coup crisis

Not only the headline is different, with the same URL, but the story has been totally rewritten.

What this shows is that a leftist will defend someone like Zorro when he has been done wrong. Zorro posted a bona fide AP story, but AP has subsequently done a "Stalinist" memory hole rewrite of story (private joke between Zorro and moi).

[Zorro]

107. Just goes to show you can't trust everything you read on the internet

Which is one thing I've been sayin' all along. You done biting my ankle now?

What was the name of that Honduran politician that was reportedly murdered? Cesar Lam? The report that generated mass hysteria in DU a couple of weeks ago? Now it seems that Senor Lam has been resurrected from the dead, or something like that. No doubt he will be worshipped in future threads.

BTW, are you in Bloomington? That's about the only place in Indiana that I'd think you'd get much traction on raising a protest. If you do, do it in front of Dan Burton's house, will ya?

[Zorra]

60. The best way to negotiate with Micheletti is to inform him that Navy Seal snipers will

take him out like a Somali pirate if he doesn't go away peacefully.

He conspired with SOA freaks and fascist financiers to overthrow the democratically elected government of Honduras.

That makes him a criminal and a wannabe fascist dictator. He should not be accorded the respect and recognition due a democratically elected Head of State.

The longer he is in this illegal position of power, the more difficult it will be to remove him from power, and the more difficult it will be for the Honduran people to regain their freedom.

Micheletti is far worse than any pirate, and should be dealt with accordingly.

[EFerrari]

63. Did you see that he had the father of the little boy the army killed

last Sunday "detained"?

These people are the very worst.

[northzax]

65. I agree

almost every time the US military has been involved in the murder of a Latin American politician, it has worked out swimmingly for everyone! let's do it again!

[Zorra]

79. Unfortunately, it's almost always the democratically elected politicians that

get assassinated by the US.

In the past, US sponsored coups/assassinations in Latin America (and throughout the rest of the world for that matter) have been conducted to make room for fascist dictatorships seen as amenable to the advancement of private economic/power interests. Pinochet in Chile is a perfect example. Micheletti's coup of the democratically elected Zelaya is somewhat similar to the Pinochet coup of the democratically elected Allende.

It very probably would have been a very good thing for the people of Chile if Navy Seals had gone down to Chile and "removed" Pinochet from power before he got entrenched and had a chance to become a tyrant and butcher. Unfortunately, the US loaned hundreds of millions of dollars to the Pinochet regime almost immediately after the coup of Allende.

It might be a good thing if we could for once learn from past mistakes instead of continually repeating them.

[clixtox]

105. "THE SHOCK DOCTRINE" by Naomi Klein is a very readable book...

that places the recent history of our meddling, or worse, in the domestic affairs of sovereign countries in context. Of course this economic/political philosophy has been unleashed here in the USA also, look around you and what do you see?

The book subtitle, THE RISE OF DISASTER CAPITALISM indicates how our corporate/political masters monetize catastrophe while wiping out the middle class and even further impoverishing the poor.

A "must read", IMHO!

Look it up and get a copy if you can.

[IndianaGreen]

71. I am against death squads, period!

The US military should stay out of Latin America. Southern Command should be dissolved and that crazy general in charge should be sent to therapy.

[Zorra]

82. Micheletti and his sponsors fully intend to set up an illegitimate RW

government in Honduras.

In all probability, private multinational RW economic/power special interests had a hand in this coup. There's a strong possibility that these special interests have some ties to/within the US.

I wish we would stay out of Latin America also. I don't like "death squads" either. But given the violent, oppressive, tyrannical history of RW fascist regimes that have taken power by overthrowing democratically elected governments in Latin America (and throughout the rest of the world), I can't help but think that we'd be wearing the white hats if Michelitti were somehow quickly "deposed" before the full extent of his nasty RW self gets to do its nasty RW things to the people of Honduras.

[Abq_Sarah]

106. Really?

Has he abolished the legislature, courts and taken control of the military?

[boppers]

84. The best way to negotiate with Zelaya is to inform him that Navy Seal snipers will

take him out like a Somali pirate if he doesn't go away peacefully.

He conspired with SOA freaks and fascist financiers to overthrow the democratically elected government of Honduras.

That makes him a criminal and a wannabe fascist dictator. He should not be accorded the respect and recognition due a democratically elected Head of State.

The longer he was in this illegal position of power, the more difficult it would have been to remove him from power, and the more difficult it will be for the Honduran people to regain their freedom.

Zelaya is far worse than any pirate, and should be dealt with accordingly.


...Huh.

[IndianaGreen]

99. Zelaya is the deposed constitutional President of Honduras

Micheletti is the one that conspired with the SOA graduates to overthrow the constitutional government.

[boppers]

101. Zelaya is the constitutionally deposed President of Honduras

Micheletti is the one that conspired with the SOA graduates to restore the constitutional government.

Aside from playing a cute word game, I'm seeking to air different claims, as they've come out. It sounds pretty screwed up, with no "good guys".

[IndianaGreen]

103. Is this your admission that you are just trolling the board?

C'mon, fezz up!

BTW, here is an example of something similar to the pro-Honduran coup posters:

Rona Kuperboim slams Foreign Ministry’s plan to hire pro-Israel talkbackers

"The Foreign Ministry unveiled a new plan this week: Paying talkbackers to post pro-Israel responses on websites worldwide. A total of NIS 600,000 (roughly $150,000) will be earmarked to the establishment of an “Internet warfare” squad.

The Foreign Ministry intends to hire young people who speak at least one language and who study communication, political science, or law – or alternately, Israelis with military experience gained at units dealing with information analysis.

Beyond the fact that these job requirements reveal a basic lack of understanding in respect to the dynamics of the online discourse – the project’s manager argued that “adults don’t know how to blog” – they are not too relevant either. An effective talkbacker does not need a law degree or military experience. He merely needs to care about the subject he writes about.

The sad truth is that had Israeli citizens believed that their State is doing the right thing, they would have made sure to explain it out of their own accord. Without being paid.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3744516,00.html

We got rightwing ideology being posted on wiki, and we have rightwing ideology being posted to internet discussion boards.

[boppers]

104. Wow, you have *NO* idea.

First off, no, I'm not getting paid by any side.
Secondly, astroturfing is so old, that we (internet geeks) already have a term for it: astroturfing.
Thirdly: Sensing a conspiracy behind every rock is, well, tinfoil.

I'm actually a liberal who believes in free press, and free information. I don't have to be paid (though it might be a nice benefit) to express this viewpoint.