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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:04 PM
Original message
Group think - Group think - Group think
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 02:11 PM by truedelphi
Although at first I was thinking that maybe the Un rec feature was okay, on

reflection, I do not. In introducing the idea, various champions of this concept

pointed out to Digg. As someone who uses DIGG and likes DIGG, that one

notion initially swayed me.

Well, Digg has some 32 to 35 MILLION people involved. It is not the small fish

pond that DU is. There is no way to kill diversity with DIGG - the fish pond is

just so vast.

But here it is very different. We have less than 150,000 people aboard DU. Add in

a censorship factor, and you pretty much turn "democraticunderground.com"

into "GroupThinkDemCentral.com"

To test out this theory, yesterday I deliberately created a topic about the dangers

that come with Group think.

You can access that topic here.
URL = http://tinyurl.com/mdpjgz

Within the first two hours, that OP had received ten responses. In the past, any

time I put up a topic that received that much attention in several hours, it ended

up on the Greatest Page. Yet yesterday's topic had been Un recc'ed so much that

it did not get to the Greatest Page.

I put out the word to about eight people on my Buddies list.

Still the topic could not fend off the Un recc's and did not get to the greatest

Page.

The whole thing was a test to see what would happen with the notion of

Groupthink.

DU used to be a place where the notion of Groupthink would have been

anathema. Last year, during the election cycle, you could see supporters of

various candidates opposing the idea of thought diversity.

If I remember correctly, last year at this time, many Hillary Clinton supporters

were rather aghast that anyone would waste their time or their vote on Barack

Obama.

If Groupthink had prevailed on DU last year, it would have been much harder to

have topics about any other candidate but Hillary. In terms of sheer numbers,

Hillary definitely had the edge. Luckily, for me, at least as someone who supported

Obama, that was not the case.

The original reason that I came to DU was because of the Stolen Election issue.

When I arrived in late '04 or '05, I do not think that the majority of people on DU

thought that the Stolen Election issue was valid. But the fact that discussion of the

issue was allowed brought about a change in the Groupthink, and by 2006, I

would say most on DU supported the notion that we should LOOK OUT for

election fraud.

Had Groupthink censored the early proponents of the Stolen Election issue,

would that change in thinking have come about?

If people want a very closed system of thought and ideas, then continuing the Un

rec concept is definitely the way to go.

It will make it a very sweet, cozy and pleasant place for one to view pictures of

the Obama family. And of course, from time to time some member will reach out

for support in the event of a personal tragedy.

But in terms of real politick and political debate, DU will have lost a great deal.




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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow all that from getting to vote on what goes in the GP.
Who could have imagined that allowing people to vote posts on or off the greatest page could have such profound effects. This is huge!

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. At least unrerc saved me a bundle on my car insurance....
And I get the additional pleasure of seeing so many emo whiners.
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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Check out the Greatest Threads page.
I think it negates much of your argument.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Your post had no substance
Even as an opinion post, standing on its own merit without any news, it had no substance. Yeah there are reflexive recommenders - but now the rest of us get to have a voice against what are basically vanity posts. That isn't group think, that's discernment. Sorry you don't like the opinion of the other 99% of DU and prefer 10 posters speak for everybody.
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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. .
:thumbsup:
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. "That isn't group think, that's discernment."
co-sign
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hear, hear! n/t
:dem:

-Laelth
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. Very thoughtful critique of the unrecommend function. Recommended. n/t
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't much understand the zeal to make it to the Greatest page
It's diluted beyond usefulness.

Digg has 15 links on its front page. Reddit has 25. DU's Greatest has 9 bazillion.

If a thread makes it, it's still dumped into a thicket more crowded than the first page of any forum.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Greatest page is indeed very diluted.
Many many posts make it there (Or did before the Un Rec feature came about.)

Anyway, it REALLY isn't about me. Or my need to get to the Greatest.

In discussing this issue, I have tried to set aside my ego. What my concern is about is about the dangers of Groupthink. Like I said in the OP, this Un rec is a situation where the more numerous supporters of any issue in a discussion will get to censor those who are not of their view.

For instance, fifteen months ago, it would have meant that any topic about say, Barack Obama, might not have made it to the Greatest. As Senator Clinton's followers would have out numbered Obama's, and thus controlled the discussion.


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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I wasn't suggesting it was about you
I apologize if it seemed that way.

I was just noting that in the end, there are only 2 consequences of un/recs -- you either make it to Greatest or you don't (and maybe carry an <0 badge of disapproval). That's it. The "prize" is a place in a Where's Waldo diorama, hardly a prize at all. And not really worth worrying about.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. How will threads re: indigo children and/or crystals ever be noticed now?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. One of your points stands out:
"I put out the word to about eight people on my Buddies list."

And did they vote to recommend your post to the greatest page? Is that not group think? Or is that simply a manipulation of the system?
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. usually there are 2 reasons for asking Buddies to come
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 03:14 PM by truedelphi
Aboard an OP.

One) To get their insight
Two) To get the valued K & R

Yesterday there was a third reason.

If you took the time to go back to the TESTCASE OP that I set up, and to view the results of that test piece, you may see what I mean.

After two hours that TEST PIECE had over ten or twelve people commenting.

But due to the non-transperency of the Un rec function, I had no idea of how many Un recs the piece had garnered. I set out to TEST how many by sending out PM's to 8 people, and thus arrived at the notion that there were six un rec's (I determined this by the fact that about four hours after the PMs were Pmed, I had a POSITIVE two recs.)

Granted I had WAY too much time on my hands yesterday - the fact is, that the only way to determine how many un recs a post has is to do what I did.

With Rec's - you are offered a number.

With Un rec's you are not.


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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Unrec is not really for members.
After the election the political climate of the country is heading off in a new direction. Any political website worth it's salt will need to know what that direction is and will find ways to monitor its members. Every time a thread is rec'd or unrec'd we are telling the admins what we like or don't like. Moderation will be adjusted to conform to those marketing realities.

You can't herd cats, but you can watch which way they run.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. This is where you lost me....
"If I remember correctly, last year at this time, many Hillary Clinton supporters
were rather aghast that anyone would waste their time or their vote on Barack
Obama."

You don't remember correctly so I nixed the rest of your thoughts.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I didn't say all Hillary Clinton supporters, I said many.
But

Whatever.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Maybe you should change that to "one of two". Just sayin' nt
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. The "edit" period has expired.
Edited on Sun Jul-12-09 03:55 PM by truedelphi
And you may be right - I had acquaintances aboard DU that were upset enough over the Obama nomination that they went off and created their own web site. So that has influenced my memories of that period of time.

My perception may thus have been skewed.



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mamaleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
19. Of course. Group think is only ok when its 40 people doing the K&R! dance, right?
For YOUR issue or topic.

People are compelled to believe your topic is the greatest, even if it's not and you have enough cheerleaders to K&R you, right?
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. I think many here need to chill.
Good grief... it's one little feature. The world REALLY is not coming to an end.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-12-09 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. I take exception to your perception of the nature of the 7/08 consensus...
... but other than that - you're right on the money.

I'd recommend this, if I were a masochist. Absent that, kicking it will have to do.
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