I have three friends who have to leave the country by the end of the month, I hope all you who feel

[RB TexLa]

only Americans deserve jobs are happy with the results of the HB1 resrictions in TARP. I'm sure some of you will be happy they have to leave so those jobs can go to their rightfull owners, ie "Red blooded Mericans." :puke:

How someone can think one person has more of a right to a job because of where they were born and still claim to be a part of humanity is beyond me.

[BlooInBloo]

1. (shrug) It's just how nativists are.

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. Okay, I was wrong.

Unrecommend does have a useful purpose.

[BobRossi]

3. Three is a start.

Hope the door doesn't hit em' in the ass.

[Liberal_in_LA]

80. lol. That's cold.

[slackmaster]

133. I know a guy from India who lost his job because it got outsourced to India

He found another job and is still here.

[billyoc]

4. Every country on EARTH does this, do any of them pass muster with you?

[Odin2005]

44. According to the corpotatist globalists it's only bad when the US does it.

It's "protectionism" and "nativism" when we do it, but when, say, Japan or France does it it's totally OK. :eyes:

[Deja Q]

83. Yup. Agreed. The double standards and hypocrisy is disgusting...

kinda sad Americans fight and die for losers like him...

[closeupready]

128. Yup. Got that right.

n/t

[Blue_Tires]

155. i discovered the real irony a few years back

when i was trying to find a new start and relocate to another country...the dream died (for now) when i realized I had ZERO chance of meeting any criteria for legal residence and full-time employment in most of my target countries...

[TahitiNut]

5. God forbid political self-determination would have anything to do with borders or citizenship.

:eyes:

[hlthe2b]

6. This from someone who thought no more of passing a serious

car accident without even a call to 911 a few months back.... Well, you are nothing, if not a paradox, RB...

[Flying Dream Blues]

11. !!! Really? nt

[lpbk2713]

14. With friends like that ...

... well you know how it goes.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Maru Kitteh]

49. Is this poster RG Bolen of the "I do not eat with you" at the wife's Christmas party fame?

If so, this one has had some genuine DU legends.

[RB TexLa]

59. Yes, she gave me an order and she expected me to follow it, I guess I should have just

done as I was told to do and not back-talked to her?

I bet if it had been you ordering me to drink and I had the nerve to decide if I would or not for myself you'd have found a rope and tree, wouldn't you?

[Maru Kitteh]

65. When did you develop this melodramatic streak? Using silly emoticons and cheap hyperbole wasn't

your usual style, as I recall. I remember you as being more of the "dry as a bone" variety.

[charlie]

60. Aw cripes

It is. The one who told DU at large that we were all idiots for getting hit by inflation from dollar depreciation because we didn't diversify into foreign currencies. The dude from another solar system.

[vaberella]

106. Huh...sounds like Ron Paul. n/t

[Elwood P Dowd]

62. Yes it is!! (nm)

[Garbo 2004]

110. "I don't drink with you," "Does the law require me to report a hit and run"

(he was hit by a truck, allegedly), "What are the criminal penalties for putting a spouse on health insurance policy without their knowledge or consent," and much, much more.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5330132
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=529387
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1599436

[Maru Kitteh]

112. Whoa. That's fascinating stuff. Thanks for the links.

[Ignis]

166. That is a comedy goldmine!

Thanks for the links. :hi:

[Cid_B]

177. The "I don't drink with you" thread...

... is fantastic. Really really weird...

It's like a mystery novel with no ending...

[senseandsensibility]

160. Please

It was I don't drink with you. I'm sure the OP is too modest to correct you, but it was a DU classic.;-)

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

161. Last week he said not all murders need to be solved.

It's that type of stuff that makes me love DU.

[sandnsea]

7. Yes I am happy

Maybe IT will finally respect the value of labor organizing and help all workers fight for fair wages. Low wages is the bottom line problem in our economnic collapse. We've been living on credit, not salaries. We're suddenly discovering our salaries don't even pay the bills. When the White House discovers that, we'll get some real change.

[TahitiNut]

10. Yup Thirty years of ever-lower labor compensation.

God forbid INHERITANCE or CAPITAL GAINS get taxed, though. Fuck labor. All hail wealth.

We have a "immigration system" that's become almost nothing other than trafficking in cheap human labor ... labor WITHOUT a vote!!

[sandnsea]

18. Exactly. Precisely. Hit the Nail.

We have a "immigration system" that's become almost nothing other than trafficking in cheap human labor ... labor WITHOUT a vote!!

[Odin2005]

47. "trafficking in human labor... Labor WITHOUT a vote" +1000

Post of the Day! The Corporatists have twisted the language of left-wing anti-nationalism and turned it into propaganda used to portray the pro-Labor Left as racists. It's complete, utter crap.

[kath]

63. +1000 more!

Fantastic post - the middle class is dead because wages have been so stagnant for the past 30 years - hand-in-hand w/ the killing off of unions.

Ever since Reagan...

[Me.]

8. Perhaps You Haven't Noticed The Recent Unemployment Numbers

[Duckhunter935]

9. Three down

Lots more to go, Seems like 9.5 unemployment rate should limit the employment of cheaper outsourced labor.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Sorry your friends have to leave

but UNTIL we get a system that creates a world government, STATES have a right to do that. Hell, they do that regularly.

[leftstreet]

13. They should stay. We'll need millions of Medical Claims Denial Specialists!

The jobs are coming!!!!11111

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

15. "How someone can think one person has more of a right to a job because of where they were born"

Those jobs were inside US borders, no? Sorry your friends are getting the heave-ho...nah, actually I'm not...

[lindisfarne]

16. Yes, well, almost all of the world is willing to work for less than current minimum wage. Should we

let them take our jobs? That's what BushCo wants. Better for the major international corporations by far. Enough of the world speaks English well enough (in fact, very well), to take the job of every K-12 teacher in the US - and many of them have higher degrees than our K-12 teachers - and they'll work for less. Great way to save the taxpayer money. (do I really need a sarcasm tag?)

[backwoodsbob]

17. how does Mexico treat it's illigel aliens?

[dysfunctional press]

19. welcome to the real world. every country on earth does it...

and YES- the people who are citizens DESERVE the jobs in this country over non-citizens.

and THANK-YOU! :woohoo: :applause:
i'me EXTREMELY happy to hear that in at least 3 cases, the system WORKS the way that it SHOULD.
:woohoo: :applause: :woohoo:

[Lasher]

20. Sorry about the plight of your friends.

But I think US policies should put the interests of US citizens first and I think I'm still part of humanity.

[Life Long Dem]

21. I wouldn't come here in the first place.

We have no jobs, and I wish you luck where ever that may be.

[Pavulon]

24. Sure we do, I can name many companies who use h1b

labor to full the seats that once paid americans good salaries. It actually costs more to use their model than training people here.

[Life Long Dem]

28. Which companies are issuing visa's?

[Pavulon]

32. Wipro, tata to name two run models that staff here using H1B

bodies. Their logic is they go in and document everything and then the person is a commodity. That in application is almost always more expensive long term. Primary reason, I write g code and design things to make stuff that can lead to death if it fails. I care about my work and take pride in it. I expect to be paid well because I work hard and think hard. These guys dont give a rat fuck because they just want to come in and either get the experience to go somewhere else for more money or go home.

This IS NOT a reflection on people who are legal residents or citizens who moved from India (or any nation) here. I have no problem with the traditional method of immigration.

I do have a problem with a process that destroys middle class life.

[kath]

64. Have you seen the video posted here a week or two back, of a conference telling companies how to

skirt the law and make it LOOK like they were trying to hire Americans, but of course not hire them so they could hire H1B's instead?? Incredibly infuriating -- will try to find it.

[lpbk2713]

92. It would be very interesting to know who the attendees were also.

I'd be more than happy to tell them how they don't need my business.
And I'd be glad to write a letter about it to more local newspaper as well.

[Life Long Dem]

100. I remember they busted up a fake company in Maine handing out H1B's.

This was years ago though. They said there's probably many more outfits like the one in Maine.

[kath]

101. Here is that video. Prepare to be enraged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&feature=channel_page

"Keeping in mind our goal - and our goal is clearly NOT to find a qualified and interested US worker. And, you know, in a sense that sounds funny, but that's what we're trying to do here."
THe law firm is Cohen & Grigsby (not sure of spelling)

Agree that it would be nice to know what companies attended this seminar so they can be boycotted.

[Life Long Dem]

102. Senator Susan Collins from Maine

introduced a bill because of the Maine incident. The bill never became law though.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-31

[closeupready]

167. How is this not practically racketeering????

Boggles my mind.

[Occulus]

130. Not if the American workers train their H1B replacements, it doesn't!

Ain't capitalism grand?

:sarcasm:

[JanMichael]

22. ? what kind of jobs were they doing? Did they plan on trying

to stay here?

You gave zero information in your post; I am sure you will miss your buds-- that's always hard, no doubt- but, that's personal, not political.

[Deja Q]

89. Zero response = zero credibility, perhaps. He might be talking out of his heiney...

[Pavulon]

23. Great start. They should come here on holiday..

not to work doing some form of work cheaper. If they were actually better then comparable skill they should be welcomed to stay. That was the real point of that visa. To say, man a call center or write code, at a discount, nope.

BTW see if you can get a long term work permit in brazil (china, austria, or australia) , just give that a shot. You will find most countries have and enforce restrictions that protect their citizens from being shopped out to a cheaper body.

[Obamanaut]

25. I am happy that three jobs are opening for citizens. And oh BTW unrec

[Deja Q]

90. Who said three were opening up for Americans, whose taxes can pay for the bailouts?

Let's hope they are...

the global economy will hurt the people this OP guy thinks are gods while us lowly americans are the scum of the earth... (I'm biting my tongue right now because of an emotional condition called 'livid'...)

[lukasahero]

96. That's a joke, right?

You think those jobs are "open". HA! You're not as bright as you look.

[Obamanaut]

103. No, I'm not very bright, and my feet stink, and I don' t love jesus - but

from the OP "I'm sure some of you will be happy they have to leave so those jobs can go to their rightfull(sic) owners, ie "Red blooded Mericans"

I'm just a simple minded oaf, parroting ideas other posters put in front of me.

[OhioChick]

26. Ummm....Do you know what the unemployment #'s are in the US?

I know of over a dozen US tech workers that would love a job.

How do other countries handle this sort of thing when they have high unemployment?

[UndertheOcean]

27. Sorry RB TexLa , most people are selfish.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

29. Yeah, people have been known to do that when it comes to their familys survival.

[UndertheOcean]

30. I know , me and my family , and screw other people , I know the sentiment

[Bonhomme Richard]

31. Edward Abbey used to say that they should be sent back with rifles and...

ammunition so they can change their own governments for a better life.
Sometimes I am in agreement with him.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

109. I never said screw other people.

What I implied was that I care more about my family(the country) then anothers. That doesn't mean that I don't care about the other family.

Let me ask you this. When a family member of yours goes in for a job interview, do you hope that they get the job or do hope that someone else does? My sentiment about the OP's friends situation is exactly the same. I hope my family member gets the job.

[Deja Q]

76. Or evey their country's economy, which is linked to the global economy which means EVERYONE

Some of the people on this forum have their brains in their butts, that's for sure.

[NeedleCast]

37. Yeah, it's silly that US Citizens want jobs...

[UndertheOcean]

38. Exactly , like its silly that California residents want Jobs , so they show the door to anyone from

another state. I know it is silly , no need to point the silliness out.

[anigbrowl]

66. precisely. Unfortunately, most people buy into the 'lump of labor' fallacy

[Confusious]

54. Yea, I find it kind of hard to think about feeding others

When I haven't got enough in my own belly. I'm kind of selfish that way.

[UndertheOcean]

55. I know that you are selfish that way , if you don't have enough in your belly , others can starve ,

who cares , you might even feast on their flesh if your belly is empty enough.

[Confusious]

71. I guess you don't see the point I'm trying to make

There's reality, and then there's the world you live in.

And while it must be nice to live in your world, it doesn't make for realistic policy based around human nature.

[Deja Q]

77. [phone]

[galileoreloaded]

131. Now your getting it!!!!

:thumbsup:

[Saturday]

33. Not sure you can say I have a lack of humanity.....

when my family has unemployed members and your friends took their jobs.

[Gman]

34. So your friends have a right to come here and work for half of what the job's worth.

i.e. relocate thousands of miles to be incredibly exploited. So not only are they taking a job that an American should do for twice the wages, the company also probably attended the seminars conducted about how to write a job description so narrowly that no one in this country would qualify for it even if they did have all the qualifications necessary for the high level work to be performed for next to nothing in wages, thereby qualifying for an H1B.

Yes, I'm extremely elated with the results of the H1B restrictions in TARP. Congress and Obama did a fine job.

[mitchum]

35. Have a safe trip and tell the folks at home I said "hi"

[Edweird]

36. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6048995&mesg_id=6048995

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3964796&mesg_id=3964796

[noamnety]

39. I am not surprised by the responses here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6039326&mesg_id=6039353

best wishes for your friends.

[lukasahero]

98. The only difference between DU and FR when it comes to immigration

is the collar of the job and the country the immigrant comes from.

Makes me sick.

[whatdoyouthink]

40. Bo Ho

I'm Sorry - but many people HERE need those Jobs...Let's face it! Cheep Labor was why there HERE, also most of there money is sent home Not spent HERE. Tough World we live in now, and we have to be Tough HERE sometimes too.

[lukasahero]

99. "bo ho"? And we wonder why immigrants get American jobs...

"Cheep labor" and all that...

:eyes:

[NoPasaran]

120. Due to the bad economy, many red-blooded Americans can only afford one vowel per word

Still, we're better off than Serbia, where centuries of foreign invasion and ethnic strife have almost depleted their language of vowels.

[lukasahero]

125. Ok - this is DUZY material.

:rofl:

Thanks for the chuckle.

[SidDithers]

152. Apparently, capital letters are still "cheep"...

:rofl:

Sid

[undeterred]

41. I feel sorry for Americans who no longer have a roof over their head

because they lost their jobs, not for foreigners who have to go back to their home country. The H-1B program was a scam which served corporate greed as far as I am concerned.

:puke: back attcha

[Deja Q]

95. [phone]

And many of us have tried posting that, with examples and links and lots of other things. He won't be bothered. The rest of us have lost patience. Now he wants sympathy?! What a nerve.

[Elwood P Dowd]

42. The lives of millions of American citizens have been destroyed because of

free trade, outsourcing, and importing cheap foreign labor. You have supported these insane and destructive policies numerous times on this very forum. So tell me, how can you call yourself a progressive democrat when you support so much pain and suffering inflicted on millions of your fellow citizens just so filthy rich CEOs and Wall Street investors can become even richer? How?

[Odin2005]

43. It's called triage.

A country's own citizens are top priority, non-citizens should look to the government of their own country for help. Too bad that your "friends" have to be corporate globalist patsies.

[malletgirl02]

45. Exactly

Also pretty much every country is pretty much doing the same thing. Also I think many of them have even stricter regulations about foreigners working in their country. I heard it is pretty much impossible for a person from a country not in the EU to get a work permit to work in an EU country.

[Odin2005]

48. Like I said, It seems like it's only "bad" when the US does it.

For example, Japan is protectionist like crazy, but if we did that the Globalists would have a hissy fit and start screaming about the impending apocalypse. These double standards are crazy, and if there is one thing my life experiences have caused me to hate more than anything else it's double standards.

[malletgirl02]

53. I'm with you

I can't stand the double standards either.

[undeterred]

46. No doubt they'll go home and get an outsourced American job

anyway.

[Hippo_Tron]

56. When your country is the economic and military leader of the world

You do, IMO, have some responsibilities to people who are not your own citizens. But finding that balance is indeed difficult.

[Odin2005]

58. of course, but that doesn't mean using anti-nationalism as an excuse for importing wage-slaves.

[Hippo_Tron]

61. I would pass a law saying you have to pay them the same wage as anybody else

Obviously that's a difficult law to write and difficult law to enforce but I think it could be done. If can genuinely find its best talent overseas then I don't think it's right to stop them. But I agree that if it's simply the same talent but cheaper, it's problematic.

[TorchTheWitch]

78. wages across the board would still go down

And that's exactly what has happened. When the labor pool is larger than the number of jobs wages decrease. This is what happened with the construction business. Being a construction worker used to be a well paid job. Then illegal immigrants flooded to market who worked for lower wages. This lowered wages for EVERYONE in the construction business because even those companies that wanted to pay their workers good wages no longer could because they could no longer bid for contracts against those companies who paid their workers less and get a contract... they had to lower wages for their workers even if they didn't use illegal labor or they'd go out of business.

Insourcing, outsourcing and illegal cheap labor hurts ALL workers.

[Progressive_In_NC]

148. I agree, it's tricky, I lost a job as a software architect and was replaced by a Developer 1

The bank I worked at routinely layed off masters degree holding American making 85K+ a year and replaced those workers with an Indian H1B as a Developer 1 making somewhere in the 45K range. It was purely a cash saving measure.

They were paying him a fair wage for a just out of college bachelor's degree earner here in the states, but they were replacing highly skilled workers at close to half the price.

[Deja Q]

85. Seconded. Canada and other countries still put their own first.

Including the ones the media currently loves to froth over most.

[mamaleah]

105. Yes, but somehow it's ok for them to do so.

They also have good health care systems. When did taking care of one's own family first become a terrible idea?

You cannot help anyone else if you are starving.

[architect359]

50. My sympathies for you and your friends

Losing a job sucks, no matter what the reason. Losing co-workers / friends is hard too.

[madokie]

51. Tell 'em by for me

See you later too:-)

[LostInAnomie]

52. Should I have been happy if they could have stayed and undercut American workers?

It's unfortunate for your friends, but it's also unfortunate that their cheap labor was used to take away American jobs.

[Deja Q]

91. Good luck in getting him to understand Economics 101. He's living in his own fantasyland...

Many have tried, he hasn't changed one iota... he doesn't care. And has zero clue.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

57. Thank goodness

I have been waiting for those three to leave for years!

[gabby garcia]

67. you have friends???

unrec.

[ChromeFoundry]

68. What do you want....sympathy?

You want my neighbors with foreclosed homes and people that are forced into dumpster diving to feed their families, citizens, to take a back seat to a position that is funded by the tax-paying citizens...so you can have friends in the workplace?

Not to be rude... but how do you breath with your head up your ass? This is not a humanitarian effort, this is a plan to save a nation from economic distress. When it comes helping out America with American tax dollars...yeah, Americans DO deserve they jobs; they are footing the bill.

[Deja Q]

84. [phone]

[Retrograde]

69. I have many friends who lost their tech jobs in the last few years

One had almost 30 years with the company and regularly took college-level classes to keep his skills up. I expect several more to be laid off in the next few months. (On the bright side, one recently found a job - at 3/4 her former pay) after 6 months of searching.)

So welcome to the club: it's getting less exclusive all the time.

[RagAss]

70. Do they have some kind of unique skill that no American has?

If not, chances are they were just here because of the greed of a CEO and his bonus !

[EnviroBat]

171. The H1-B's I've interviewed for positions, can barely get through the interview.

Their resume's often site high-level skill set's that really seems to indicate that they've seen the application on someone's computer once. The one's who are in-house are always asking me if they can install expensive applications, (expensive to license), on their machines so they can "try it out". When their contract ends, they've mysteriously become experts in some application that they've used for 3 days, and their resumes are updated to reflect this new-found expertise. They are often unable to answer the simplest of technical questions about what the position calls for. I literally had to explain how to open a Word Document to a "consultant" who was brought in as a Java Developer.

Yes, it pisses me off that talented labor is being overlooked in the interest of profit, and qualified American's are being shafted.

[RagAss]

174. Yup...it's a scam. And the dumbfuck CIO's are filling their own pockets with the $ they save.

Capone would love this shit !

[Garbo 2004]

72. Based on your previous posts, I'm surprised you regard this as any of your concern or

appear to think it should be a concern of ours or our responsibility.

Americans are losing jobs too. Why should your friends be more deserving of jobs here than others?

[Deja Q]

94. Because we americans are the low life scum of the earth...

well, to him anyway, but that's his problem.

[proteus_lives]

73. Let them get jobs in their own country.

What the hell is wrong with our government/country looking out for our interests over those of foreigners???

[Deja Q]

88. More over there than there are here... maybe he can join them if he hates America so fucking much.

Don't forget, our taxes pay for bailouts and other stuff - I'm surprised he hasn't railed about that. Yet.

[tpsbmam]

74. A good friend committed suicide because her work was outsourced and given to H-1B workers

She had a lucrative career in computer consulting (programming for business). Slowly but surely, all of her work was outsourced to other countries and taken by H-1B visa holders. She got to the point where she couldn't find work and couldn't afford to support herself and she killed herself. Am I sorry H-1B visa holders are being sent home in favor of hiring American workers? Hell no. Should have happened sooner and we should have tighter controls on the numbers. The corporate meme that the American know-how and workers are there is bullshit -- they simply want to pay less, bring down the salary levels & hire people they know they can abuse with longer hours, etc. Not only am I not sorry your friends had to leave, I hope many many more jobs are returned to the rightful workers: Americans. IF and when we really do need foreigners to fill jobs, I welcome all who aren't taking jobs away from Americans.

[Deja Q]

82. A lot of us have explained that, and more, to the usual bullshitters... they won't listen.

Not even on a token level; they do not care apart from their feigned, ersatz "idealism", which isn't.

There are good workers everywhere and there are bad workers everywhere. But there's too much evidence showing the bad ones are getting the free ride.

[Pool Hall Ace]

75. K&U

:kick:

Yes, citizens have rights to jobs, and I'm still part of humanity.

[Liberal_in_LA]

79. well, hopefully they'll find employment elsewhere. sorry you are losing your buddies

[Nay]

81. It's called the definition of "country" - you know, that place that regulates

its borders, decides who gets to come in and who doesn't, etc.? I do think those jobs rightfully belong to American citizens and legal resident aliens, like my mother. All other countries do this, and yes, your friends need to go on home and make their own country one they want to live in. And stop blaming Americans for not wanting to turn their country into one of their third-world ones.

[Deja Q]

86. Not many jobs here - plenty where your budz are going to. WHY NOT ASK TO JOIN THEM,

and see if they have any openings so you can relocate?

Then you'll see if if your budz really are budz or not.

:hi:




(Edited: emphasis on the obvious)

[Horse with no Name]

87. Question because this slipped under my radar

Is this why the nurses from the Phillipines are being forced to return home?
I knew there had to be something up but didn't know what it was.

[MicaelS]

93. Your attitude is exactly what is wrong with many Progressives

You are too willing to sacrifice your fellow Americans on the altar of some greater idea of International Justice and Brotherhood. And then Progressives wonder why their ideology doesn't have wider appeal to Americans. As far as I'm concerned ALL H1B Visa holders should be required to leave the US as long any American IT worker is unemployed.

[musette_sf]

97. well, it's a good start.

[mamaleah]

104. Yes, terribly selfish....just like many enlightened European countries.

Yes, yes. Horrible that we would like to make sure people in this country have jobs and then worry about filling extra positions. Just awful that we would like to help people keep a job so they may keep a roof over their head and keep their families fed. How terrible.

[AzDar]

107. Well, that's a start.

:thumbsup:

[ContinentalOp]

108. Uh, HELLO, this is part of the whole problem with the H1B program.

They're nothing but cheap workers that the company can use until they don't need them anymore and then ship them back home. It's like indentured servitude. Step out of line and not only is your job in jeopardy but your visa as well.

It's bad for us AND it's bad for them.

[and-justice-for-all]

111. I am sure they are thrilled to return to real health care...nt

[scheming daemons]

113. With all the sincerity I can muster... Fuck 'em

We have a 9.5% unemployment rate in this country. Our government's FIRST duty is to its citizens.


It has nothing to do with "where they were born"... it is "where they are currently citizens".


If they want to work here, they can become citizens first.



Again... fuck 'em. I'm not taking a job from them in their country...and likely, their government has the same protectionism that ours does.

[pampango]

115. You do realize that "where they were born" is "where they are currently citizens" for 99.9%

of the world's population, don't you?

None of us had any control over where we were born, any more than what gender, race, or sexual orientation we were born with. Most progressives totally understand that straight white males can no longer legally exclude women, other races or gays from competing with them in the job market (though the competition is not yet fair in many respects). Has that been hard on straight white males in the sense that they used to have all (not just most) of the good jobs, the women stayed at home (except for a select few "female" jobs), Blacks restricted to low-level jobs and gays kept in the closet? Sure, but no one can argue that things should return to the way they were so that the jobs and wages of straight white males can be protected.

As progressives we reject discrimination based on race, gender, and sexual orientation since people are born with these and have no control over which traits we were born with. For the vast majority of the world's population citizenship is a similar birth characteristic. You are a citizen of the place you were born.

I realize that there is a "real world" of national borders, immigration and employment laws. There is also a "real world" of discrimination based on race, gender and sexual orientation. Some seem quite willing to accept one "real world" since it may be better for us individually, while working hard to change the other "real world" because we realize that is not morally acceptable.

Would American workers face less job competition without immigrants? Sure. Did straight white males face less job competition in the 1950's than today? Sure, but we all know that excluding people from the job market based on whether they were born male or female, black, white or brown, straight or gay is not morally acceptable. As progressives do we want to expand prosperity to more or protect "our" prosperity from the "others" who do not share our birth characteristic (citizenship, in this case, not race, gender or sexual orientation)? This "protecting "our" prosperity" is what straight white males perceived they were doing in days gone by, basing the "our" on race, gender and sexual orientation since job competition based on citizenship was not as common.

[Confusious]

117. Nice thought

but...

Why do we have to sacrifice on the alter of job equality for non-citizens, and the rest of the world doesn't?

I'm not willing to drop my pants and bend over unless most of the world does it at the same time, and there's some equality involved.

And one more thing... Our grandparents fought in wars ( The revolution, the civil, WWI, WW2 ) made sacrifices and worked hard so that we would have these opportunities.

Maybe the people coming over here should do the same in their own countries to make them better.

Looks to me like they are running and stealing. Running from doing the real hard work in their countries that our parents did in ours, and that we are going to have to do again, and stealing from those whose families have already sacrificed.

Thieves and cowards.

[pampango]

121. Most modern immigrants are "running" from their countries just like our ancestors "ran" from theirs

and for much the same reason - a better life. I agree that after our ancestors immigrated here, they and subsequent generations have worked and fought to make the country what it is today. Perhaps our attitudes regarding immigrants deteriorates the more generations that separate us from us from our own immigrant ancestors.

Should "the people coming over here...do the same in their own countries to make them better"? In my ideal world perhaps they should, but in the "real world" they are doing the same thing that my ancestors did. (And I'm sure the immigrants that preceded them viewed my ancestors as thieves and cowards. Some things never change.)

[Confusious]

170. I have no probem with immigrants who come here to make a better life

I have a problem with the companies that ship people over here for cheap labor. I have a problem with people who come here who take job and have no intention of staying. I have a problem with H1B visas because it drives Americans out of work unfairly.

Just like every other country in the world, we should have limits for immigrants. This isn't the same world of 200 or even 100 years ago. We can't be taking everyone in. People need to assimilate.

200 years ago, even 100 years ago, there was no hope of change. most places were ruled by the British empire, or some European country or despot. Nowadays, most are democracies. If they are willing to create change it can happen, but they need to be there.

[Mrs. Overall]

150. You tell much in this post.

Disgusting.

"drop my pant and bend over" is a Limbaugh term as is calling immigrant workers thieves and cowards and accusing them of being lazy.

[Confusious]

168. I never listen to limbaugh, so I wouldn't know

"Bend over" is a common saying when your getting screwed when you don't want to. Get out from under your rock.

And I never accused immigrants of being lazy.

Accusing someone of things you have no evidence of IS disgusting indeed.

[Bluenorthwest]

124. You speak of a dream time in the future!

GLBT people can be fired for being gay, or refused employment openly for that reason, in many States. Same goes for housing.The current administration supports discrimination against us in family law. They also help church groups get tax payer money while allowing them to discriminate against GLBT people.
So when you declare that legal discrimination against my people is a thing of the past, you are simply incorrect, uninformed, and sadly, part of the problem. You are speaking in grand terms of 'morally acceptable' when the real problems are legal, and openly practiced, while those who think of themselves as being 'progressives' do not bother to help us, for they think such discrimination is all in the past.

[pampango]

142. I don't believe that I declared "that legal discrimination against my people is a thing of the past"

"Most progressives totally understand that straight white males can no longer legally exclude women, other races or gays from competing with them in the job market (though the competition is not yet fair in many respects)."

"As progressives we reject discrimination based on race, gender, and sexual orientation"

"There is also a "real world" of discrimination based on race, gender and sexual orientation."

Your point is well taken that progressives don't do enough to support the GLBT battle against discrimination and that I exaggerated (wishful thinking) progressive support for GLBT issues. To my mind, though, inadequate support for the fight against one form of discrimination is a call to increase that support rather than to withdraw support for the battle against other forms of discrimination, but that is a call that we each make as individuals.

[Bluenorthwest]

144. Read carefully please- you are repeating your falsehood again

You repeat that 'straight white males can no longer legally exclude women, other races, or gays from competing in the job market.' That is simply not the truth. It is, as I already said, legal in most states to discriminate against GLBT people in employment and housing. As of last year, Ohio was one of the states in which such discrimination was legal. Legal. You say it is not legally allowed, but it is.
You did not just exaggerate the progressive support for GLBT issues, you continue to foist falsehoods about the legality of discrimination against us. Try to grasp that many who are not as kind as you make the same assumptions, then turn to us and say 'you have all the rights but marriage' as a way of announcing why they don't bother to stand with us. They think we are protected in employment and housing in the US when that is not the fact, it is not true. Saying it does not make it true.
Today, people will be fired or not hired for being gay and will be told that directly, and legally. And that is the fact. What you said was not fact, but fantasy. Sorry, but the truth matters. Own it. Those wrongs exist because of straight people, your people. Again, sorry but it is the fact. Your kind does this to my kind. And the best of you pretend it is not true, for your own comfort's sake.
The law is what it is. Why is it too much just to acknowledge that fact?

[closeupready]

146. Amen. Discrimination is a fact of life which many GLBT people live with every single fucking day.

n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

149. But the poster is sure it is not legal to do so!

And refuses to acknowledge the uncomfortable truth that the laws are not as he imagined them to be.

[pampango]

154. Kind of cherry picking there aren't you. I said "Most progressives totally understand that"

'straight white males can no longer legally exclude women, other races, or gays from competing in the job market.' In a subsequent response to you I acknowledged that it was wishful thinking on my part to exaggerate the extent of progressive support for the fight against discrimination against GLBT people, but I did not say that such discrimination does not exist.

Where did I say "it is not legally allowed"? I specifically said that in the real world discrimination against women, minorities and gays still exists.

"Sorry, but the truth matters." "Why is it too much just to acknowledge that fact?" I own it. I acknowledge it.

"Those wrongs exist because of straight people, your people." I acknowledge it. I own it. Wrongs against women, minorities, immigrants and others also exist because of "my people". I acknowledge it. I own it.

If your point is that gays, women and minorities cannot support fights against discrimination against groups other than their own because they still experience discrimination themselves, then you are welcome to your position.

[Bluenorthwest]

157. Again. You say :

"straight white males can no longer legally exclude women, other races, or gays from competing in the job market."
That is not correct. You keep stating that it is no longer legal to exclude gay people, when in fact it is legal to outright fire us for being gay. Cherry picking? I'm pointing out to you that you are stating what is legal incorrectly. This is not about 'most progressives' it is about the facts of the laws. Which you misrepresent, still.
Let me be very clear with you. Straight white males can legally exclude gays from competing in the job market. So can straight women, and members of any other minority group. Legally exclude us. Legally evict us.
You are trying to put words into my mouth even as you refuse to take responsibility for the innacuracy of your words. Over and over again. Which is common from the power groups toward those you oppress. You want to have a conversation in which you are the humanitarian hero, but you do not even know the laws of your own state, upheld by your dollars and votes, as they apply to your next door neighbor. And you want me to believe that you care about any group?
My point is that those in the heterosexual power elite let injustices remain, and like you, will pretend that they have been countered by law when they have not been. Yet the same people will claim to care about 'that group over there' while they continue to foist lies about their own neighbors and the laws of their own land.
My family has not been here all that long. I have lost many friends to other nations because our laws stand against love and humanity. So while you pretend to care about immigrants, you do not, you have not spent decades seeing your peers shown the door of our country, just for being gay. You have not seen your friends leave their nation so they could live with the one they love. But you pretend that you are all about the folks from overseas. The straight folk, obviously.
My best friend had to go to Europe to be with his partner. I miss him daily. That situation exists because of people like you. Got that? Y'all would not let his partner stay here, work here, nothing. Your people did that with the discriminatory laws you keep on the books, out of hate or apathy it matters not to me. Your people have my people deported as a class. While your kind is allowed to meet a person one day, marry them and bring them home the next!

The thing is, people being deported away from their families due to bigoted law is not news to me. As it is to the straight world, who declares that it is illegal to disscriminate against us, even as they discriminate against us using their vile laws. The laws that your kind make. Your kind deports my kind for no reason at all. And you want to play good cop, and I am not having it. Because no one of your community deserves such status.

[closeupready]

169. Thank you. Don't pose as being some kind of latter-day MLK, Jr. when you have done diddly-shit

towards opposing laws protecting GLBT people from discrimination, firing, eviction, etc.

To repeat, we in the GLBT community live with this apartheid EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DAY. Many of you heteros don't get it. Those who do, more power to you. :)

[pampango]

172. You're right. I am wrong. I wasn't reading the sentence you questioned as it was written.

I should have said something like "Most progressives accept that straight white males should no longer be able to legally exclude...", but that's not what I wrote. I thought I acknowledged that discrimination against gays, women and minorities still exists, but the sentence you questioned was, indeed, totally inaccurate. I apologize and offer no excuse for why I couldn't reread my sentence for what it said rather than what I meant for it to say.

[closeupready]

132. No, wrong. Discriminating on the basis of national origin is illegal.

Well, I'm not sure if it's a federal law, but I know for a fact that it is illegal in some states. So I reject your argument that national origin is a characteristic similar to sexual orientation or race or gender. It is not, for a large number of reasons.

[Bluenorthwest]

134. And yet in most states it is legal to discriminate against GLBT people

and the posters here refuse to correct the falsehoods they post about such discrimination being illegal and no longer accepted.

[closeupready]

135. Yes, it's easier to talk in platitudes, and sound magnanimous, rather than debate facts.

Sucks for him, but the facts argue against his claims.

[pampango]

138. How is it different? National origin not a birth characteristic?

You are born with a race, gender, sexual orientation and national origin. You don't choose any of them.

[closeupready]

139. Borders shift. You may have been born in India but are now Pakistani.

Likewise, you could have been born in Germany, but ended up Polish. Other examples abound. Obviously, you can change your citizenship, but you can't change history, and if you are suggesting that it is wrong to discriminate on the basis of where you were born but not on any other basis, I agree.

But what is being discussed is discrimination on the basis of CURRENT citizenship. If you are not a US citizen, you may end up being discriminated against in the job market.

[Bluenorthwest]

140. There are laws that protect people from being fired for nationality

and you say there are not. In most states, it is legal to fire people or refuse employment or housing because they are GLBT people. You say that is not true, you say it is illegal.
You have your laws all backwards. You claim that those who are protected are not, and also claim that those who are not protected by the law are protected by it.
When it was pointed out to you that you are foisting falsehoods about anti-discrimination laws, you avoided addressing the falsehoods in your posting.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

145. But you can change your citizenship.

My parents immigrated from India, but they've been naturalized American citizens for decades.

[pampango]

159. You can change your gender, too. Awareness of one's sexual orientation often evolves over time.

Race, while immutable, is full of gray areas involving biracial and multiracial people, particularly in the US.

Granted that citizenship is more of a legal construct than are gender, race and sexual orientation. (Although in apartheid South Africa, the race classification boards made legal determinations about one's race, thus making race a legal construct at that time.)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

164. But it's far easier to change your citizenship.

And once you become a citizen, you are entitled to all the relevant legal rights of your new country.

[Bluenorthwest]

147. If I marry an opposite sex person of another 'nationality'

that person is allowed to live here, and to become an American. That is she would change her nationality.
On the other hand, I can not marry a same sex person at all. If I married a guy in a free country, I could go there, but he could not come here. Our marriage would mean nothing to your heterosexual law.
So, the heterosexual converts his spouse to a new nationality. The GLBT person is not even allowed a spouse here. Nationality changes many times. It is a political, not personal 'characteristic'. Mutable.
Also there is not one law that allows anyone to discriminate against a person for the political citizenship they held at birth, nor for their ethnic origins. In fact, that person can get a job, then turn around and fire all the gay folks. Legally.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

116. Sorry...

.. I'm more concerned about jobs for Americans than I am jobs for anyone else.

I'm by no means a "patriot", I'm a pragmatist. If I were running the show there would be NO, ZERO H1Bs. Not ONE when unemployment is effectively 12-15%.

[-..__...]

118. I'll gladly help them pack their bags.

:nopity:

If I had the authority the H1-B program would be eliminated entirely and existing visa holders would have to return to their country of origin at the end of their 6 years.

[Kurska]

119. It's a job In America from companys that often benefit from the American government.

Americans deserve first crack at it.

[WillyT]

122. Believe Me... We Have Plenty Of The "America Uber Alles" Crowd Here At DU

And when "The Other" is threatening your job security, it is easy as hell to whip up the race laden xenophobia and do the divide and conquer thing with the working rabble...

And the powers that be, while we are fighting amongst ourselves, will be running and laughing all the way to the bank.

Can you say TARP???

I thought ya could.

:shrug:

[rockymountaindem]

126. Race-laden xenophobia?

The people in question in this post could be Canadians for all we know.

[WillyT]

127. Or Norwegians, Or Australians, Or...

Does not matter. The race-laden xenophobia is whipped up PRIMARILY about immigrants from south of the border, yet it effects all immigrants, legal or illegal.

And... you do know that not all Canadians are white, right???

:shrug:

[rockymountaindem]

143. I lived in Canada for four years, so yes

The H1-B visa debate has nothing to do with illegal immigration because the H1-Bs are a form of *legal* immigration. Stop trying to conflate them to get us to feel bad about ourselves.

[WillyT]

151. Let Me Try It Again...

"The race-laden xenophobia is whipped up PRIMARILY about immigrants from south of the border, yet it effects all immigrants, legal or illegal."

I don't conflate the two... the anti-immigration crowd conflates the two...

and many people, feeling threatened and\or aggrieved, fall for it and lump them all together.

And you can tell the level of anger, because many times here at DU, I read comments (not yours) that could have easily been posted at FreeRepublic when it comes to immigrants and job loss.

:shrug:

P.S. I don't feel bad about myself...

;)

[Bluenorthwest]

123. Considering GLBT people live under unequal rules about

immigration, and we are not even allowed to bring our spouses home to the US to live with us, considering that Pres Obama when in the Senate voted to continue treating us in that manner, throwing our families out of the country when you heterosexuals are allowed to simply bring them home, it is very difficult for me to get upset about our laws not being kind to non citizens. Our laws are cruel to citizens, chum, bigoted and mean.
So it sounds like your friends have more rights than I do anyway. I'm supposed to be upset why? Do you get upset about what happens to my people, each and every day of the year? Have you urged Obama to reverse his Senate position and sign the new Uniting American Families Act? Well, have you? If not, why not?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

129. If they came here in order to bring down wages, then they don't really have a case.

[pampango]

136. You think they came here with the goal of bringing down wages (as your post indicates)

or that they were recruited by people who wanted to bring down wages? Most people, whether they are Indian, Mexican, American or any other nationality, look at things selfishly in terms of what is best for them and their family, not what is best for national or global economies.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughBeaumont]

141. Yep, I don't know why he's still here either, part DCLXVI.

Can't help the wage payers by cutting the legs of the wage EARNER, Sparkster. It's JUST. THAT. SIMPLE.

Our own house has to be in order before we have the ability to repair anyone elses.

[invictus]

153. Yes, I am happy. H1B visas should be abolished.

In America, Americans should have priority for hiring. That's how it is in every OTHER country in the world.

[dionysus]

156. yup pretty happy myself.

[Incitatus]

158. Hopefully their home countries have good immigration/labor laws,

so foreign workers don't limit their chances of finding work.

[scrinmaster]

162. Well, hopefully that's three Americans who will now have jobs.

And yes, the rightful owner of a job in America is an American, just like the rightful owner of a job in Canada is Canadians, India Indians, etc.

[Romulox]

163. If borders mean nothing to you, follow your friends to wherever they're going.

Only a hypocrite would claim "borders mean nothing!" and then stay cemented in one place, demanding the world come to him! :hi:

[Hassin Bin Sober]

165. At least they'll have health coverage when they get home.

So will the American who gets their job (hopefully).

[ItNerd4life]

173. How can you be so uncaring about American workers?

If they had taken your job, you would feel differently.

[McCamy Taylor]

175. Only natives have a "right" to be here. Another unrecommend disaster.

Anti-immigration is the hot issue for the GOP and they have their folks everywhere spreading the "Fear the immigrants" dogma that is the lynch pin to the new fascist American state they visualize.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

176. Because they're jingoists at best and racist bigots at worst.

Most of the people spouting this crap would never consider living overseas anyway, as they might have to make do without drive-through ATMs.