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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:29 PM
Original message
Possible problems with private insurance if abortion is forbidden in health care reform.
We don't need to cave this time on rights for women and rights for gays. We don't need to cave on union issues. We have the votes. Yes, we do have the votes to get through a Democratic agenda.

To those DUers who are willing and ready to let our party decide medical issues by using religious ideology....that is your right. But if it occurs there will not just be consequences in 2010 and 2012....there will be consequences most likely to women who are covered for abortion and reproductive rights under private insurance.

You need to read Karen Tumulty's article in TIME. She points out other problems that might arise.

Could Abortion Coverage Sink Health-Care Reform?

She mentions how the Hyde Amendment affected paying for abortions under government programs.

The Hyde Amendment, passed by the House on Sept., 30, 1976, forbade Medicaid — a program for poor people, jointly administered by Washington and the states, which had, up till then, paid for about 300,000 abortions a year — from using any federal money to pay for the procedure. All but 17 states followed suit, banning use of their own funds as well; with a few modifications, the ban has stood up ever since.


Then she takes time to point out the difference now with this new consideration of health care reform.

The prospect of sweeping health reform, however, has reopened the issue. While current versions of the legislation do not address the abortion issue at all, late last month, 19 antiabortion Democrats in the House sent a letter to Speaker Nancy Pelosi, warning that they "cannot support any health-care-reform proposal unless it explicitly excludes abortion from the scope of any government-defined or subsidized health-insurance plan."


Most of those who oppose abortion do so because of their religious views. Legislation is being demanded of Congress on the grounds of religious ideology. There are consequences.

Indeed, the abortion question is just one of a myriad of tricky questions that will emerge from the fine print as the health debate moves forward. Democratic leaders say, for example, that they are already prepared to accede to Republican demands that illegal immigrants be excluded from the plan. But other issues, such as abortion, are going to be far more difficult to navigate. (Read "Understanding America's Shift on Abortion.")

If an explicit ban on abortion coverage were imposed, say sources involved in writing the legislation on Capitol Hill, it could have much further-reaching implications than the Hyde Amendment ever did. It could, in fact, have the effect of denying abortion coverage to women who now receive it under their private insurance plans. Nearly 90% of insurers cover abortion procedures, according to a 2002 survey by the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit organization whose statistics are relied upon by both sides of the abortion debate.

Under the legislation being worked on by three committees in the House, Americans earning up to 400% of the poverty level — $43,000 for an individual; $88,000 for a family of four — would be eligible for government subsidies to help them purchase coverage. But if the antiabortion legislators get their way, those subsidies would have a big string attached; they could not be used to purchase a policy that has abortion coverage. For many women, that would mean giving up a benefit they now have under their private insurance policies. And it would raise all sorts of other questions if insurers were allowed to discriminate among their customers based on whether or not they are using federal dollars to pay for their policies.


According to the article, 71% favor including reproductive services such as birth control and abortion as part of health reform.

There is a larger issue in play here. It is the fact that our party does not have to compromise away our rights this time. We have a majority that is large enough to put forth a true Democratic agenda.

I hear the talking heads like Chris Matthews spouting forth already on how paying for reproductive rights will crash the health plan.

That is just pure BS. We take stands when we have a majority like this.

There is a form of lobbying going on here now on this issue. There are people warning off women who think such rights should be included. It's working very well, I must admit.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
"There are people warning off women who think such rights should be included."

hell, some of them are right here on DU.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Heh heh
your k & r just got up and went. New system. :hi:
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Just so you know, if you don't already -- Federal employee health plan does NOT cover abortion
It has not since July 20, 2001. Bill Clinton restored it after the Reagan/Bush I years. Bush II unrestored it and as far as I know, Obama has yet to restore it again.

So I would not be one bit surprised if any public option does not cover abortion. It certainly does not for federally employed women.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well, I am too old to have an abortion, so it doesn't affect me.
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 09:12 PM by madfloridian
So I really don't know why I care or bother.

I doubt it will cover it. I think maybe I will let the younger women who should care about their rights being stripped fight the battles for it now.

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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. I am too old now -- but I'm a retired Fed, and I *wasn't* too old once.
It amazes that every time I have posted about Federally employed women not having abortion coverage, there is NEVER any comment about the fact that Obama could restore that coverage with an EO just like Bill Clinton did as soon as he took office in 1992. For all his pro-choice talk, Obama has yet to walk the walk for AMERICAN women and I don't think he ever will. I think it's just one more thing he's full of shit about.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I don't think he will either.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Dupe deleted
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 09:10 PM by madfloridian


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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. I support the right, but see no need to fund it with public money
abortion is affordable and a voluntary procedure. Unless it is a medically necessary procedure it is up to the individual in my mind. I have never seen any insurance cover abortion.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What if it isn't voluntary?
What if it becomes a serious matter involving health or life of the mother?

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Covered.
similar to the difference in a cosmetic boob job and reconstructive surgery after breast cancer mastectomy. One is elective and personal call, the other is covered by insurance.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. No. They demand that it "explicitly exclude abortion"
"The prospect of sweeping health reform, however, has reopened the issue. While current versions of the legislation do not address the abortion issue at all, late last month, 19 antiabortion Democrats in the House sent a letter to Speaker Nancy Pelosi, warning that they "cannot support any health-care-reform proposal unless it explicitly excludes abortion from the scope of any government-defined or subsidized health-insurance plan." Among those who signed the letter were two members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee (one of the three panels with principal jurisdiction in the health-reform effort): Bart Stupak of Michigan and Charlie Melancon of Louisiana."
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Elective abortion or all abortion? All is not ethical
every private insurance plan I ever had stated it would cover termination of pregnancy only when medically necessary. (Their point was not to be helpful, but to spell out they do not cover elective procedures). I have a right to dental veneers , I also have a requirement to pay for it myself. Elective abortion is not medical care.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Your view shows me the religious right has won.
Good for them. I will say this about them. They know how to stand up and fight for what they believe in.

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I am basically agnostic..
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 09:38 PM by Pavulon
but it is common sense. I support and defend the legality of abortion. It should be available on request. However at that point it is elective. A personal choice, personal choices have a cost. If I choose it is easier to have the final 10 lbs removed from my gut via surgery it costs money. It is not your job to pay for that. Rape or incest are necessary any should be covered in some fashion.

If a person decides to have an elective abortion it is their personal choice. That is not about religion or morality, just common sense.

Care to share your views?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Not really.
If you start from the premise of "abortion on demand"....then we have no common ground.

I have posted about the issue enough. It is not an issue for me in my time of life.

If Democrats are happy making decisions for women then that is what they will do.

I can't beat that old right wing "abortion on demand" phrase.

They have done a magnificent job and they have won.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Maybe you misunderstand..
I SUPPORT a persons right to manage their reproductive decisions however they see fit. But I also support common sense. Short of rape or incest a person had consensual unprotected sex and is now pregnant made a decision. And that decision , good or bad, is their call. It is literally not my business or the governments business what they choose to do.

No one is MAKING decisions for anyone. Just wondering why I should be responsible for that persons choice?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I did not misunderstand.
If you don't fund a procedure that is considered murder by religious right folks....you are sending a message.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yeah, personal responsibility, choice comes with responsibility...
medical reform is about medical procedures being covered. Elective abortion is the same as cosmetic surgery in my mind, personal call. Unless it is a medical procedure it is not covered by insurance.

This is not about messages, it is about common sense.

I am open minded. Abortion is not birth control (which is covered) , so how and why should it be covered. Any limits to funding. Personally I would rather everyone get good dental coverage than try to make elective abortion into a covered procedure.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. So you think women who have abortions are not responsible.
I think that is about as right wing a talking point as I have ever heard.

That appears to be how this forum thinks now, though.

Hey, why should I care. Not my problem.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Not responsible would be a state making a choice for them
Responsible is good. Nope they are responsible for their own reproductive care. Your "right wing" shit is getting old.

What i said is quite clear. If you can not understand something the smart thing to do is ask a question. Statements, especially when they are way off are not a good thing.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. You are acting like you are superior to me.
When people act like they are superior to me and talk down to me I put them on my list. Life is just way too short to worry with those who treat others like that.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Again, "right wing"
is not polite. Not correct and not fair. My OPINION is that reproductive choices are personal. They should not involve the state at all.

What is your opinion? How should the law be structured?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
49. except that is not what he said
Personal responsibility in this case means if a person chooses to have an elective procedure (leaving out the cases where it is not elective because he has already stated they are covered) then they pay for that elective procedure. They are responsible for the costs involved in that choice, because unlike cancer, a broken leg, appendicitis, etc., the procedure is a choice. In the same way that if they choose to have a nose job or a face lift they pay for that.

Abortion does not compare well to cosmetic surgery though, because there are expenses involved if one choose not to have an abortion, unlike in the case of cosmetic surgery. However, if those costs involved in pregnancy and childbirth are covered and if adoption is available then the financial differences would be very small.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. You would LOVE the new AZ governor....taking anti-abortion to new levels
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3967504

"Republican Gov. Jan Brewer on Monday set a new course from her Democratic predecessor on the issue of abortion, signing a measure imposing new mandates and restrictions.

One of the bill's provisions is a requirement that those who visit an abortion provider wait 24 hours before getting an abortion. The visit would have to include disclosures by doctors in person about the procedure, risks and alternatives, and the fetus' probable characteristics.

Also, an existing law on parental approval for minors seeking to end pregnancies would be toughened. In addition, pharmacists and other health care providers will be able to refuse to hand out emergency contraception on moral or religious grounds."

See....those AZ women will sure damn well be "responsible" by force.


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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. I find equating abortions with cosmetic surgery more than a little disturbing.
There's a connotation of "superficial vanity" that comes with that equation that is more than a little bit offensive.

I understand, intellectually, your argument of "personal responsibility", though in my ears it sounds like "not my problem". I also understand, intellectually, how one could come around to the idea that "I shouldn't be expected to pay for a lapse in another's personal responsibility"... but knowing how having a child that one is not financially/emotionally prepared to rear can affect the life of both the mother and the child (not to mention the father, though that poor bastard is almost never considered in these cases)- I find that I'm willing to have my contributions to a medical insurance pool pay for an abortion (of course, at the current rates, I can't afford any insurance... but if I were paying).

You use the "personal choice, personal responsibility" mnemonic, and point to a similarity in personal choice with cosmetic surgery... consider this alternative allegorical comparison: When I pay my county taxes, I am happy to have those taxes go to the local library so that people can read the books that are secured thereby. I could, on the other hand, try to argue that, if a person wants to read a book, then they should take the "personal responsibility" to earn the money and go buy the book for themselves... arguing essentially that it is not "my responsibility" to contribute toward the costs of a book for another to read. On the other hand, if the community at large will be a better place if people read a book... is it not a worthwhile investment of my portion of the funds that went toward the purchase of the book(s)? --- Likewise, if the choice is between chipping in some money so that women who judge themselves to not be prepared to be parents can have an abortion, saving themselves and the children and the community at large the myriad difficulties (financial, moral, metaphysical, judicial, etc.)... or leaving the woman in question to "figure it out for herself... not my problem"-- How could I not feel that the portion of the monies that are my contribution are not worthwhile?

And, the only answer I can think of to take the latter choice on the issue of abortion is that one has become convinced of the "abortion on demand" argument, the "abortion as birth control" argument that the Right Wing has been pushing for decades now. That is a myth. Even a Satan worshipping friend of mine that I took to a Planned Parenthood once upon a time (and to whom I donated the funds for the procedure)... even she didn't take an abortion lightly.

Of course, the notion of "personal responsibility" is like a gospel in the US. And the prudish Right has done a more wonderful job of stigmatizing all things sexual than I had fully realized... I suppose they'll get around to demonizing libraries soon enough as well, so that their "hard earned tax dollars won't be wasted on" books. Either.

I guess I'm just a "patriotic pride" atheist too...
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Yep, I an agnostic. Not a religious thing
very simply it is a personal thing. Abortion is a choice. Elective. If not medical insurance covers it, or should. Abortion is a service, not a tax funded item. I personally do not believe it should be something my tax dollars fund at dhs. The procedure is inexpensive.

The states should avoid excessive entanglement in reproductive choices.

My opinion is directed at the process of payment. Not at the service, which i have stated at least 5 times, should be a personal choice available to every person.

Opinion is also stated here several times.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. Most private insurance covers any abortion
"Elective" doesn't mean "optional," by the way; at least in medical parlance. It means 'not needing to be done on an emergency basis.'
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. States regulate this, not feds..
17 states prohibit insurance plans for public and/or private employees from covering abortion services: AR, CO, ID, IL, KY, MA, MS, MO, NE, ND, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, VA, WI.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
57. "Abortion is not birth control (which is covered)"? Um, yes, it is.
If birth control is covered, why not abortions since yes, they are birth control.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
56. Would proving contraceptive failure fit in your view?
They do fail.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Yep, If i back my car into a post
i will go ahead and cover that out of pocket. Maybe my choice/error/personal decision should be your burden? Pregnancy can be prevented. Abortion is 300 - 600, not exactly open heart surgery. So yeah, if I had that problem I would not feel the need to go to my health insurance provider.

Choices are a personal call and a personal responsibility.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Contraceptive failure = backing your car into a post.
Wild.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Killing A bill for this issue, wilder
this bill will NOT pass if tax payer money is used to cover elective abortion. Yep, we are responsible for our choices. There is a difference between legal access to abortion, and public funding. Sorry that is reality.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Having this even be an issue, wilder yet
What is the alternative to "elective abortion"? Forced abortion?

I find the fact that this is an issue is even wilder, and the words written by people even on DU a sad commentary on the whole thing.

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. That would be a choice..
elective procedure. Pretty common medical terminology. Elective surgery is also a common thing. Not going to be covered in insurance plan either.

Sorry I am of the camp that if you elect to have sex, and then get pregnant, you are responsible for terminating that pregnancy. If you decide to have a child, you should make some effort to pay for that commitment too. Just my opinion. I dont write law. I do believe that a law that provides public funding for abortion will not make it.

Like I said terminating a pregnancy costs less than a speeding ticket.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. What is the alternative to "elective abortion"? "that would be a choice"?
What?

My speeding ticket cost me $35.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. No court cost?
my last was 150 fine and 150 court cost, 350 to atty to turn it to non moving violation. Non elective would be the china model, forced.

Again this is not a discussion about abortion, it is about public funding. That is a massive difference.

I am surprised that this has not been in the news yet. Hope someone has a really good answer ready for this question.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. That included court cost. I have a good record, begged, did some
driving safety thing (read it? can't remember exactly though was only last yr, didn't make much of an impact) and they dropped the fine to minimal and I have it off my record if I don't get another in a yr.

ALWAYS go to court or ask for it to be reduced, write a letter, etc, as if you make the effort, they usually will reduce it. That is a pain, 150, 150, 350.

Non-elective is China model, like "only 1 child, oops your are pg, here is your abortion"? If we had something like that here, State mandated, then State should pay? I hope it doesn't get to that
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. My concern IS the state
the more the state is involved the more I fear their "rules" will be applied. It seems better to have them out of the loop, at least to me. Many states are hostile to choice and will cause big problems. I really do not think a otherwise good bill would pass with that funding included. Personally i think it should be transparent and between a patient and provider. Politically I think it would grind the whole thing to a halt.

That was my wife 80 in a 55. She even tried the "emergency on way to hospital" bit, no dice. The trooper actually called her out, she was so tired after 20 hours he pointed out the hospital was the other way. For her I have to make sure they turn to non moving violations. the prayer for judgement just means the next ticket is like getting two.
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haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #13
32. Rape and incest are psychological wellbeing issues -
As would be the case of financial difficulty - which is the #1 cause of the break-up of families, already existing dysfunction in the family, and any other myriad of psychological well-being. I mean, the well-being of any potential child, or the mental health of the mother is obviously only linked to how willing the sex was, not on whether or not there's any resources available for the woman to go through a pregnancy or raise a child...

I am really getting sick and tired of "Rape and Incest" being somehow more of a qualifier for the choice to have an abortion than losing your job or being trapped in a dead-end relationship with no way of raising the child once it was born. I've known some well-adjusted people who were children from rape and incest being given up for adoption before Roe v Wade, with no consideration given to the mother, who was forced to live the rest of her life in shame because she was considered worthless for giving birth out of wedlock, because it was the sex (obviously she wanted it, or it wouldn't have happened)that was supposed to be punished, after all.

After all, if you're that pro-life and if there's no medical necessity for the abortion, why should there be an exemption for Rape or Incest?
That's a choice, after all - even if she was scarred for life from the event that caused the pregnancy, the woman could still just carry the child and give it up for adoption, just like they did in the pre-Roe days.

And if it's about the cost, it cost far less for an insurance plan to provide abortions than it does to go through with a pregnancy. Not to mention what happens when someone has to put aside 6 - 7 months of their lives and deal with the constant stress of being forced to "pay for" a mistake or a faulty product - do you not think they're passing that stress and distress on to the fetus they are going to be forced to carry to term?
It's the difference between the insurance company shelling out around $1K - $2K for a consult and abortion procedure and over $50K for full term pre-natal care - and that's for a healthy pregnancy. Out of pocket, the pregnant woman would have to pay around 10% of whatever the insurance company doesn't cover, just in co-pays. A co-worker of mine just had a baby, it cost her family out of pocket nearly $7K over the entire process, with good health insurance coverage. Not everyone can afford that.

Due to my experience, in my mind, if the choice has already been made that there is no way she can carry a child to term - for whatever reason, be it "frivolous" ("I need to be able to fit in my 10th reunion dress"), economic ("I can't afford to pay the medical co-pays, the prescriptions and to take 4 months off my job for maternity leave because I'd be a high risk pregnancy- I'd lose my job and I'll be out on the streets..."), depression/stress ("I didn't want to have sex, but it just happened, and I feel like I want to die...") or relationship ("He's going to leave me and the kids if I'm pregnant again"..) - the choice has been made.

At that point, it's a personal matter of quality of life. For the woman who is pregnant, as well as the potential fetus.
Pregnancy shouldn't be a punishment for the crime of having a sexual encounter that "went wrong", and that's what anti-choicers are making it into. If they cared about the fetus, they would have all sorts of free (socialized) clinics, counseling, available housing and support nets for the woman, her family, and the "child to be".
But no, in our anti-choice society, the woman who finds herself pregnant - for whatever reason - and doesn't want to be is being punished worse than someone caught kiting checks or in possession for personal use through months of forced labor and acute physical discomfort...and the subsequent baby becomes a throw-away - ignored until it becomes a problem to society - as soon as it is born.

Yeah, right. An unwanted pregnancy is a cosmetic issue, unless it was a proven crime. It all comes down to telling the woman "You had sex and didn't complain then, so now you pay, beotch..."

Haele

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. Crime non crime
this is not a discussion on LEGALITY. A crime victim should not be forced to pay for a procedure. Nor should a person who has to start taking lithium to function. THis is a discussion on payment. NO INSURANCE covers elective abortion now. Find your own analogy but my OPINION is that the state should stay OUT of the process of reproductive choices. Again for the 7th time, i thing abortion should be available to a person as a choice that is theirs alone to make.

My point is that the state should not "care", they should not judge what is good enough. Leave the state out. You want some dmv process to determine reproductive rights?

It is a 300 - 600 dollar procedure. Most speeding tickets cost more.
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haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #41
50. Crime or not, abortion is about ending an unwanted pregnancy -
Edited on Wed Jul-15-09 04:27 AM by haele
An unwanted pregnancy, unlike dissatisfaction about the size of your boobs, has long term ramifications - to the state.
Just as mental health programs have to do with the wellbeing of the average community, so are family planning programs. Yes, it's a woman’s choice as to whether or not she has sex - and whether or not she and the potential resultant offspring going to become a burden to the state if she can't take care of herself or her child during the pregnancy and after the birth.
The entire issue is there is a pregnancy. If the woman has made the choice to have a child, there’s an entire range of expensive services that will be made available to her for the duration of her pregnancy, the birth of the child – all the way through the developmental stages of that child’s life.
A nose or boob job for personal reasons can't potentially cost the state taxpayers a potential million dollars over the period of 21 years. An unwanted child forced into a dysfunctional family can easily cost community resources in medical, social, and policing services, especially if that child ends up in the foster care system. Far more cost to the community than the pity cost to grant a cancer survivor that had a mastectomy a saline implant so she can feel more confident about herself.


I don't know how old you are, but I remember pre Roe-v-Wade, and the "crime" of rape or incest did not warrant a legal abortion procedure - the woman could just wait until the baby was born, then put it up for adoption in most states. Ask Senator Ben Nighthorse about that...
Crime has nothing to do with the choice to carry a child or not. Women who are raped still have the choice to go through with the pregnancy if that's in their belief system, and the state does not force them to abort. It's a choice that has been made many, many times before.

I'll repeat - it’s hypocritical to claim that a crime somehow makes an important family planning choice more legitimate, especially with history being against that choice in any case. If being a personal choice instead of a medical choice should keep it from being covered under a public plan, it shouldn't matter why the personal choice is being made, it shouldn't be funded. Just the same as the anti-choicers claiming it's "an innocent life" before birth - it doesn't matter if it's an innocent life that was freely created by choice or forced on the woman as part of a crime, it's still an innocent life.

Just come out with it - To claim abortion is no more important a procedure than a boob job is to also imply that efforts to in family planning or personal well-being are also frivolous choices.

Look – to carry through with a pregnancy is a dangerous, expensive prospect, costing upwards of $100K per pregnancy – even if it’s the insurance that pays the majority of the costs. Without insurance or some sort of supplemental, a safe abortion procedure costs upward to $5K - and could be more. Your figure of $300 - $600 is a means-tested supplemental that some community health clinics provide when the doctors and nurses are working on charity wages - and working women at the lower end who don’t have insurance but make too much can’t just pony up even that much money just because they had what they thought was safe sex and ended up pregnant.
The working lower class families will end up doing what they’ve always done – be forced to have the kid they did'nt want, and either raise it or give it to the state to raise once it’s born.
The choice has been made. When removing abortion from family planning, you're saying "If you have sex that results in a pregnancy, you are going to have to “take responsibility” for that choice and have the kid".
And of course, the fundies who have been working against choice for the past 30 years won’t want to stop there; the next thing they’re going after is contraceptives. So there will soon be no choice at all.
Sex = pregnancy = childbirth.

This isn't the DMV deciding whether or not you have reproductive services. This is the DHHS, and Medicare, and whatever state medical system you have deciding whether or not you have reproductive services, which is already going on. The article above states it succinctly - if health care is going to be mandated by the State (any government entity), abortion services can be cut from both private and public insurance plans.

Now, if you were to claim that if we want public option, we should give up on this component of family planning, because of the religious bias against choice except for physical medical reasons, that's a different argument altogether, but don't pull up the old "Abortion on choice only for Rape and Incest" argument. The fundies have already got the logic to disprove that one, and they've got generations of history to back them up.

That's why choice to go through with an unplanned pregnancy should be both a physical and mental well-being quality of family life issue - just the same as other family planning and mental health programs are. Especially because choice to carry a child to term encompasses more than just the woman who may seek an abortion - her choice can affect her family and community for years after that choice was made.

Haele
(edit to correct the Senator's name)
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Not a "community" call. Strictly personal
sure it could be argued that everyone who can not pay for child care should not have children. Or terminate a pregnancy. That is very dangerous. I AM NOT in any way anti choice. I am very much for public medical care. I just do not see the benefit of publicly funding abortion. I guarantee any bill that does will NEVER pass and if it does will evaporate any majority in the congress.

I worked as a machinist and have met lots of people doing jobs who are not making lots of money. 600 dollars is available if needed to almost everyone. Government plans aren't going to be free of co-pay and shared cost (90% of first 10K) type arrangements. SO you could pay MORE for a procedure with insurance.

I am making no argument other than abortion is personal choice and does not need to involve the state.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
39. Federal employee insurance covered it during BIll Clinton's administration
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. So a voluntary procedure shouldn't be covered? Then pregnancy/childbirth shouldn't.
Don't expect me to pay for your kid to be born. If you volunteer to get pregnant and have a kid, that's on you then.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. It is not under medical..
it is under disability in my state. BCBS charges many hundreds more a month to cover pregnancy under a rider. Like you may break even if you get the policy and get pregnant the next day. Your pool, depending on your state, does not fund pregnancy. Maybe they can cover it that way?

I guarantee that trying to fund abortion under a health care bill will kill it stone dead.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. The FEDERAL employee BCBS plan covers all pregnancy costs
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. Insurance is regulated by states
so it varies.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
69. The states do not regulate Federally mandated coverage.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
45. I have never had private insurance that excluded any abortion
I have had: Blue Cross/Blue Shield; Aetna; Kaiser; PruCare and others I can't think of right now.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. Again, based on your state..
17 states prohibit insurance plans for public and/or private employees from covering abortion services: AR, CO, ID, IL, KY, MA, MS, MO, NE, ND, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, VA, WI.
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solstice Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. Federal employees - whose health insurance is supposed to be so great (but isn't) - can't pay for
abortion with their own health insurance.

They could under Clinton.

But Bush rescinded Clinton's order. And Obama has never un-rescinded it. That tells me all I need to know.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. The battle is over, we just don't know it yet.
I guess I had to try to post a couple of things about how I felt. But the religious right won the battle on this, and they will probably win on DADT and DOMA as well.

They win because we don't take stands.
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PinkyisBlue Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. They also have the backing of most of the MSM behind them...
and the corporations, who are tied to the religious right and own the MSM.

I agree with your posts. Basically, what it comes down to for me is this: does a woman have rights or not? If she does, abortion would not even be discussed except by the woman and her doctor, and birth control would be widely available and affordable by anyone who wants or needs it.

Every time Republicans feel they are losing ground, they play the cards available to them. With all their sex scandals, the "family values" card isn't working for them right now, and the gay card is out of commission for the time being. So the cards they have to play with right now are the race card, the abortion card and the "evil liberal" card. They have the tv/cable stations, airwaves and much of the printed media to get out their messages.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Excellent post.
"Basically, what it comes down to for me is this: does a woman have rights or not? If she does, abortion would not even be discussed except by the woman and her doctor, and birth control would be widely available and affordable by anyone who wants or needs it."

Amen.

:hi:
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
20. Do we have a full list of these 19 Dems?
Edited on Mon Jul-13-09 10:02 PM by theHandpuppet
I want to know who these mo'fuckers are.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Here they are, but they are not the only ones..
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/4471

"These are the signers: Dan Boren (Okla.), Bobby Bright (Ala.), Travis Childers (Miss.), Jerry Costello (Ill.), Kathy Dahlkemper (Penn.), Lincoln Davis (Tenn.), Steve Driehaus (Ohio), Tim Holden (Penn.), Paul Kanjorski (Penn.), Marcy Kaptur (Ohio), Mike McIntyre (N.C.), Charlie Melancon (La.), John Murtha (Penn.), Jim Oberstar (Minn.), Solomon Ortiz (Texas), Collin Peterson (Minn.), Heath Shuler (N.C.), Bart Stupak (Mich.), and Gene Taylor (Miss)."

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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Remember these names, people
And start manning the phones! Smoke that switchboard!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
22. Durbin today on TV said he thought Hyde to be set law.
There will be no stance taken by the party.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
24. From Street Prophets: a pastor's post about religious bullies and health care.
Big kudos to Reverend Carlton Veazey for this outstanding post at Street Prophets.

Religious Bullies Throw Their Weight Around on Health Care Reform

Call it religious bullying. Call it political pressure. Whatever the term, the threats by the Catholic bishops, the anti-equality Family Research Council, and some evangelical leaders to kill health care reform legislation if it covers abortion services are unacceptable to those of us who seek inclusive, accessible, affordable and accountable coverage.

Add to this group the 19 Democrats (most recruited recently to run in Republican districts) who say they will not vote for health care reform "unless it explicitly excludes abortion funding" and the Democratic and Republican congressional leaders who are willing to dump abortion coverage to achieve "bipartisan" support for reform and you have a sense of the mentality of those who are against abortion coverage.

Considering the tiny fraction of health care that involves abortion, these threats verge on hysteria. They pose a clear danger to women’s health overall. We know that reproductive health is a key determinant of women’s overall health. The treatments and services that promote reproductive health throughout a woman’s life must be part of any national health plan – and that includes contraceptive care, maternity care, pre- and post-partum care, screenings for sexually transmitted infections and reproductive cancers and abortion care. Whether or not this mentality can produce the votes to kill reform, it is grabbing headlines and shaping the debate. Meanwhile, there is silence from progressive politicians who support legal abortion as a health care measure and from social justice leaders.

For women’s reproductive health care, a lot is at stake here. In 2002, the Guttmacher Institute found that 86.9 % of typical employment-based health plans routinely cover surgical abortion and 86.5% routinely cover medical abortion. If abortion services are excluded, millions of women will stand to lose coverage for services that they already have through their private insurance plans. The impact will be greatest on low-income women, who are four times as likely to have an unintended pregnancy and five times as likely to have an unintended birth as higher-income women. The huge gap in health status and access to healthcare services that reforms are meant to remedy will widen. Abortion will become even less available and accessible than it is now, with 86% of counties across the United States currently without a provider. As a country, we will all take a step back to the days when abortion was illegal.


Thank you, Reverend Veazey
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-13-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. 86% of counties across the United States currently without a provider??
Unholy shite!! I guess that's a blind spot being from the SF Bay Area, one gets used to the idea of these services being available. I never would've dreamed it was 86% of counties without a provider... 23% maybe, but 86%??

That is an offensive fact... :wow:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Here are some examples of various states and % of counties with no access
Georgia:

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/state-profiles/georgia.html

"92 percent of Georgia counties have no abortion provider"

Florida:

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/state-profiles/florida.html

"69 percent of Florida counties have no abortion provider"

Texas:

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/state-profiles/texas.html

"93 percent of Texas counties have no abortion provide"

Here is a link with more facts about how it is restricted already.

There are tremendous restrictions on abortion in most states already.



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cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
31. problem with - "71% favor including reproductive services such as...
birth control and abortion as part of health reform."

Good grief, how was this worded on the survey? Since "birth control" and "abortion" are two completely separate things, lumping them together causes some statistical problems.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Those who wish to create separate but unequal health care for woman
generally see birth control as abortion. You either believe that a woman is intelligent & moral enough to make her own health care decisions, or you don't.

And yes, it really is that black and white.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Yes, many on the religious right equate the two.
Some of our Baptists mention them in the same breath....abortion and birth control. It's about power over women, not a Christian view. It got all messed somewhere along the way from what Jesus would have wanted.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-14-09 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
48. It would be in the government's best interest to pay for abortions considering the health care
costs of children.
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haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Poor children are disposable.
Always have been. I've seen enough cases of state-sanctioned child abuse (bordering on sanctioned "culling" from society) in so many of these very religious "right to life and work" class-based states that I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing child labor come back into vogue as soon as all the pesky civil rights and labor laws get repealed for the glory of Ghod and Mammon. Gotta have that disposable workforce.

It's all Personal responsibility and all that. This is the modern philosophy of social worth by those who think they are the "deciders":
If you can't pay for your own gold plated bootstraps, you obviously haven't tried hard enough. If you can't afford to stay healthy, well - that's your fault. If you don't have enough capital saved, you're a burden on society once you can't work anymore. Why should anyone give up their hard earned wages to help you and the whiny brats you foolishly had when you thought you and your family were financially secure a decade ago? So what if you were stupid enough to be scammed into thinking you deserved a retirement - that "New Deal" was obviously a crock thought up by losers, and if Ghod didn't favor you enough to put you on the higher level of worthiness - well, now, just be happy with the crumbs you can pick up and don't be too visible when you're looking for the dumpster to crawl behind and die once your usefulness to the glorious ruling class is over.
Oh, and there's too many of you down there. Let's have some spectacles to entertain us while you little folks down there try to manage your resources amongst you. Oh, yeah, and you're late paying your taxes. We need that infrastructure in place and working smoothly so we can keep our privileges intact and away from the hoi-palloi. They wouldn't know what to do with anything of worth, anyway.

:sarcasm:

Haele
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
60. If it won't pay for abortions
it shouldn't pay for Viagra either!
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
65. I agree. Throwing women's health care under the bus
in the name of expediency will also have lots of other negative long-term effects, I think. It's the start of that old slippery slope: which procedure is next? What else can someone claim ought not to be included based on their personal morality?

Doing this simply opens the door wide to completely undercut the rationale behind a gov't option on health care.
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