Paternalism and abortion access.

[cali]

29 states mandate a waiting period for women seeking to obtain an abortion. 33 states mandate that the poor, befuddled little woman receive counseling prior to an abortion. And what does this counseling consist of? Why largely it's all about the fetus and the deleterious effects of abortion on women.

Who instituted these onerous laws? State legislators and who comprises the majority in these legistures? Men.

It's sickening.

[NC_Nurse]

1. Agreed. This new law in AZ is despicable. When do men have to go through

this kind of horseshit to get Viagra? They should have to sit through "counseling" about 4 hour erections and graphic depictions of STD's.
Then wait 24 hours... and have to pay out of pocket for it. x(

[armyowalgreens]

2. Let us not forget that Roe v. Wade was decided by men.

And there is at least one woman on the AZ legislature who is pro-life. I'm assuming you posted this because of the recent AZ bill.

[cali]

3. the AZ laws prompted this post but the facts remain

that 28 other states impose the same onerous conditions, and that men make up the majority of state legislatures. Having said that, yes they were all men who decided Roe, and your point that women can be just as anti-choice as men, is absolutely correct. However, these laws, are paternalistic in that they treat women as incompetent creatures. And women, alas, too often adopt paternalistic views.

[armyowalgreens]

10. I can understand how you would be mad at the disproportionate amount of men in power...

But that does not prove your OPs assumptions correct.

We do not have paternalistic laws because of men (of course that means looking past the origins of paternalism. But the origins are irrelevant). We have paternalistic laws because of misogynists. There is a difference.


The OP paints with a very very broad brush. Your chain of logic is weak.

[cali]

13. first of all, I'm not mad about it. I think it's unfortunate and needs to change

and yes, we do get paternalism and paternalistic laws from men, because the origins are anything but irrelevant and because men largely still control the levers of power in this country.

I find it quite amusing that as you chastise me for a lack of logic, you make the the outrageous claim that the origins of paternalism are irrelevant. Now that what I call lame.

[armyowalgreens]

15. The origins are irrelevant...

Paternalism is as old as humanity. However, being a man does not mean one is guilty of paternalism. Just as being a woman does not necessarily mean one is against paternalism.

The men who created paternalism have been dead for millennial's. The blame for it's creation died with them. Therefore, the origins of paternalism are irrelevant to the issue of paternalism today.


Making a logical chain that starts with men and ends with paternalistic laws is weak. It is not all men who are paternalistic.

I can make a logical chain that starts with Elizabeth Dole, who supported anti-choice legislation, and end with paternalism. That does not mean that women are the reason for paternalism.

[cali]

16. never said that being a man means that automatically one is paternalistic.

but no the origins and history of paternalism,particularly the origins and history of paternalism in this country, are decidedly not irrelevant.

[armyowalgreens]

17. ...

"Who instituted these onerous laws? State legislators and who comprises the majority in these legistures? Men."

Here's the chain...


Men make up a majority of state legislators->State legislators instituted onerous laws= Men are the reason why the state has onerous laws.


I'm not saying that's what you believe. But that's what your chain implies.

[SmileyRose]

4. They should just make abortion illegal and be done with it.

They won't, no matter how much they grandstand. Oh they'll do everything possible to be all holier than thou but they won't ever criminalize abortion flat out. Republicans know the scenes of women killed or maimed after an illegal unregulated abortion splashed across the TV would be the final nail in the Republican coffin. Abortion is much more valuable as legal - to be used as a divisive wedge to keep Americans from thinking about how their rights and their pocketbooks are being confiscated.

[cali]

5. they can't. not that certain states like S. Dakota haven't tried.

abortion is constitutionally protected.

[Donnachaidh]

11. making it illegal is unfair - wealthy women will STILL get them, despite the law

Making them illegal will bring back the backroom abortionists, and more poor women will DIE because of it. And Daddy Rich's little brat will just hop a plane to a country that allows it, and tell all her friends she went *shopping*.

It's a woman's CHOICE - not yours.

[Arkansas Granny]

18. Yep, if they made it illegal they would lose a very important part of their platform.

They need abortion to be legal so they have something to use to convince voters of their moral superiority.

[Still Sensible]

19. Too much money is raised by politicians

and preachers firing up their followers on this issue for it to ever be criminalized federally again. It's the goose that laid the golden egg for right wingers.

[hlthe2b]

6. Yes....

The ultimate civil right should be a woman's right to control what happens to her own body. This is a right that has been historically and increasingly denied women. Women can never be "equal," can never be more than chattel, until men stop trying to control her, to "squash" her self-determination in this way.

[ipaint]

7. Religious men.

This is about religious beliefs.

[armyowalgreens]

8. That's not entirely true.

Religion has a pretty extensive history of being supported by and created by misogynists.

I personally think that religion was created by men to guarantee their dominance.

[ipaint]

9. No argument from me

Which came first the misogynist or the fundie nutjob religion. At this point I don't think it matters they feed each other.
I have yet to hear of a non-religious misogynistic politician signing into law these kinds of draconian requirements on women.

[Donnachaidh]

12. It's about CONTROL.

While religious beliefs are cited, it's a control issue for Terry Randall and all those other male-dominated groups pushing to have the law repealed.

[ipaint]

14. Yes it is

And in this case religious beliefs are the vehicle for that control. There are no non-religious terry randalls pushing for this. If there are I would love to know about them.