Welcome Back to the Wild, Wild West

[babylonsister]

http://washingtonindependent.com/50729/welcome-back-to-the-wild-wild-west#more-50729

Welcome Back to the Wild, Wild West
By Matthew DeLong 7/14/09 9:48 AM


Rational Arizonans today are surely missing former Democratic Gov. Janet Napolitano, who left in January to become secretary of homeland security. From The Arizona Republic:

Arizonans with concealed weapons permits will be able to take a handgun into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.

That’s under a bill signed into law by Gov. Jan Brewer on Monday.

It would require bar and restaurant owners who want to ban weapons to post a sign next to their liquor license. Drinking while carrying a weapon would be illegal.

The last point is a nice gesture, but it’s not unthinkable that such a law will greatly increase the likelihood that people will, in fact, drink alcohol while carrying a loaded firearm in a bar.

Opponents have said mixing guns and alcohol could cause violence, but supporters said people should be able to protect themselves at businesses that serve alcohol.

It’s a self-evidently bad idea for several reasons, not the least of which is the possibility that bartenders might be a bit more reluctant to cut off customers who have had too much if they think their patrons might be packing. It might be a good idea to keep an eye on the number of DUI-related traffic fatalities in the coming months.

It’s probably worth pointing out that as governor, Napolitano served as a check on the unique brand of wingnuttery found in the Republican-dominated Arizona state legislature, and she used her veto pen generously — including on a very similar guns-in-bars bill in 2005.

Now, with Brewer — a conservative Republican — in charge, Arizona has no voice of sanity at the top-levels of state government.

[scheming daemons]

1. Napolitano's appointment was America's gain, but Arizona's loss

[Catshrink]

Arizonans are getting a heft dose of RW rule

They aren't even RW Repugs here -- I call them neoLibertarians. And thankfully, the sheeple have had enough of them. I just hope they remember that 16 months from now.

[slackmaster]

2. Consider it an experiment to test the wisdom of allowing people a little more freedom of choice

If it turns out to be detrimental to public safety, we'll all be able to see the results.

[babylonsister]

6. Freedom of choice to carry a gun in a bar where presumably

the gun owners will be drinking?

I'd love to see stats on how many people have been shot or otherwise hurt or killed by people who have been on the sauce.

[slackmaster]

12. No, presumably the gun owners will NOT be drinking because that will still be illegal

Remember the presumption of innocence?

I'd love to see stats on how many people have been shot or otherwise hurt or killed by people who have been on the sauce.

As a life-long advocate and teacher of gun safety I can assure you that guns and alcohol don't mix.

[babylonsister]

15. Then I don't even understand why this is a law. Possibly some bar

owners won't have a problem letting people pack heat and drink. That does sound like a recipe for disaster.

[slackmaster]

19. As I posted previously, we'll see whether or not it has any impact on public safety

I don't know whether or not the law prohibits knowingly serving alcohol to someone who is carrying a weapon, but it's very clear that people who carry weapons are prohibited from imbibing. That has always been the case, and the new law won't change it.

[juno jones]

33. One of the reasons I left Texas after 6 months:

A co-worker's brother was shot to death in a bar. He wasn't even the intended victim. I could see a whole lot more of this happening.

[Homer Wells]

20. I really cannot see

why an individual would be in a bar if not for the purpose of partaking of alcoholic beverages.
Isn't that the reason for the existence of such establishments??

:wtf:

[slackmaster]

21. This change in the law isn't just about bars - It's about RESTAURANTS that serve alcohol

Under the old law you could carry a weapon at McDonald's but not Chuck-E-Cheese because Chuck serves beer.

why an individual would be in a bar if not for the purpose of partaking of alcoholic beverages.

Have you ever heard of the concept of "designated drivers"?

How about people who just don't drink for whatever reason, but still socialize with people who do?

[Tansy_Gold]

3. Well. . . .. .

[Robb]

4. Mixing alcohol with guns is a terrible, terrible idea.

I much prefer using a spoon or swizzle stick.

[babylonsister]

7. Heh.

:spray:

[NOW tense]

5. Dont Take Your Guns To Town.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMMp_llzBT4
Johnny Cash - Dont Take Your Guns To Town

[ShamelessHussy]

8. The gun nuts have completly lost it - even in the Wild West you had to check your guns

:crazy:

[villager]

11. And the proliferationists whine about alcohol being deadlier than guns -- yet love the idea

of mixing the two!

[Buzz Clik]

9. This follows the insane logic we constantly see from the gun lobby:

"If you are carrying a gun, you are better able to protect yourself." Under some circumstances, that is true. However, in a bar full of alcohol-influenced gun carriers, it's far more likely that gun violence will break out where no gun violence would have happened before. When two or three or ten people start firing guns, putting a gun in your hand will not make you safe.

[Catshrink]

10. The new Repug Gov. did veto the new fireworks bill

that was a wise decision. The firefighters and health professionals were against it, for good reason. It would have allowed sparklers and "snakes" and other stuff in the bone dry desert. Can you imagine what wildfires would have been like? It was unconscionable that some idiot legislator even introduced it. Oh, wait, that was my idiot legislator.

[azmouse]

13. Some Phoenix restaurants have had "No guns allowed" signs up for years.

What a city! :crazy:

[slackmaster]

14. Restaurant owners will still have the right to implement that kind of policy

If they choose to do so.

[Tan Gent]

16. And all the hysterical breast-beating and predictions of mayhem will turn out to be

nothing.

[krispos42]

17. This is a tough call

On one hand, people that qualify for concealed-carry weapon (CCW) permits are among the most law-abiding people in the country. They take the responsibility seriously, and if carrying in an alcohol-serving establishment they are unlikely to partake of such drinks. After all, Chili's and Applebee's both qualify as that kind of restraunt, and if I was carrying I wouldn't see any reason not to be able to while drinking a soda and munching on an Awesome Blossom.

On the other hand, alcohol in a given population of people will make some of them more aggressive and less thoughtful. A conflict between a drunk patron and a sober, armed patron is more likely, and if the armed patron draws his/her gun the drunk guy's impaired state might escalate the situation to gunfire instead of sensibly backing down.

On the 3rd hand, does the sober guy have to have his ass kicked, risking life and health, simply because the drunk guy is too blitzed to control himself? In other words, is being drunk an excuse to be violent without accountability?

And on the 4th hand (I guess I'm an ant today) if the person is carrying illegally, as criminals tend to do, then the prohibition on drinking while carrying is basically useless to that person.


My prediction: the doom-and-gloom that rings from the rooftops whenever a state broadens concealed-carry laws will once again prove to be unfounded.

[ShamelessHussy]

22. Sorry sir, but the "doom-and-gloom" is already here.

Compare Gun violence in America to any other industrialized nation and you shall see that it goes waaay beyond "doom-and-gloom" here.

Mixing alcohol and guns is nutz.

[krispos42]

24. I compare all violence

To do otherwise is not very valid, IMO. The UK's gun-homicide rate is at or near record lows, for example, yet their total homicide rate is at or near record highs.


The other point is that whenever a state makes CCW licenses more available the anti-gun people predict "Wild West" style shootings, people being gunned down over parking spots and too much mayo on their Whopper, etc... and it never happens.

[ShamelessHussy]

25. I prefer to be specific and when you look at our record of gun violence, it is horrific.

Either way, our own gun culture has put us at the top of the general violence scale as well.

And the other point stands, too... mixing guns and alcohol is plain nutz. That only the extremist can not recognize apparently.

[krispos42]

26. The assumption that more guns equals more violence is unfounded.

And singling out guns is like quoting statistics that show that 4-door cars are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths a year.

The assumption that people will stop committing crimes simply because there are fewer guns around is a false one, IMO.



We rank 24th in worldwide homicide rates, incidently.


And the law as written specifically prohibits pistol-packin' people from drinking.

[ShamelessHussy]

27. According to who, you?

Where do we rank among industrialized nations in GUN violence? that was my point.

And with that statistic in mind folks think mixing alcohol and guns is a good idea?

nutz.

[krispos42]

28. Um... we have guns, therefore we have gun violence.

I bet that Florida has a really low rate of snowmobile injuries and that Minnesota has a really low rate of shark attacks. I also be that there are very few traffic deaths in North Korea.



The question being asked is that if guns weren't available, would the crimes that the guns were used in simply not happen?

[ShamelessHussy]

29. Exactly, and thank you for helping me make the point.

Ergo: less guns = less gun violence - as Gun Violence Statistics among industrialized nations bear out.

And, the GUN violence in America is off the charts, horrific.

That is side point #1

Now, going back to my main point, with the above in mind... Mixing guns and alcohol is NUTZ.

Now that that is out of the way, I shall move on. Good day, sir.

[krispos42]

30. So it's okay if people are robbed and killed, just as long as it's not with guns? n/t

[Tan Gent]

23. Your prediction is absolutely correct. Hell's bell's, I know plenty of places where

people are carrying guns -without- permits and even given that, violence with firearms is so rare it doesn't even make the radar. I'm referring to settings other than inner cities, obviously, but the point is that the legal status of carried guns has little if any bearing on incidents involving them. It's hard to imagine more draconian sanctions than those imposed on meth and cocaine (fr'instance), yet they're easy to get almost anywhere.

[MindPilot]

18. Will there be any rules to protect non-shooting patrons from

sidestream bullets? Studies have shown sidestream bullets are just as deadly.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

31. Now I can pack heat at an Olive Garden anywhere in AZ. :D

Sorry, I couldn't help myself - haha.

[-..__...]

32. Currently...

there are only 10 states that ban or limit CCW where alcohol is served/consumed.

Roughly half of those are an outright ban, whereas the other half limit CCW to restaurants and/or establishments where less than %51 of their income is derived from alcohol sales.

So... why all the chicken littles running around squawking about wild west shootouts?

While I'm not an AZ resident, bravo for them for taking this step.

As I see it... this is just one more victory for our 2nd amendment rights; regardless of which state myself and other firearms owners reside in.

[Javaman]

34. Didn't most saloons in the old west have a pistol check?

I recall reading that someplace.