So just out of curiosity, how does "unrecommend" stifle free speech but "alert" doesn't?

[Clintonista2]

[EFerrari]

1. Alert is a resort to the published rules of DU that we agree to when we post here.

Unrecommend is arbitrary.

[Clintonista2]

2. Rules of what can be said and what can't, right?

[EFerrari]

4. Yes, and that posters to this site agree to when they register here.

[Clintonista2]

6. Then surely they understand that there is no such thing as "free speech" on an internet forum

to begin with.

[EFerrari]

8. Your question was about alert and unrecommend.

And I think the admins here work very hard to put up with our "free speech". LOL

[Clintonista2]

9. Alert stifles free speech in order to control behaviour

I don't think it's a bad thing. If I wanted to listen to the opinions of Republicans I would go watch fox. However, if someones sole concern is free speech, then they ought to be complaining about alert and not unrec

[EFerrari]

17. Alert doesn'f stifle free speech because there is no agreement

between the admins and the public to foster anti-social behavior.

On the contrary, the site rules that manage bad behavior make free speech possible by keeping the lanes open for real conversations. And, for the Lounge, too. :evilgrin:

[Cerridwen]

3. How do you feel about page 28 under the fold?

[Clintonista2]

5. I'd feel even worse if people could "alert" page 28, and have the article deleted from history

because they disagreed with it.

[Cerridwen]

12. Those would be called the stealth campaigns of the 80s and 90s

and they were used to pull unpopular articles and ideas from many newspapers.

[MADem]

7. Alert is for people who haven't read the DU rules, or who have read them and violate them anyway.

This forum does have rules, you know, and this is not a free-for-all website. If it were, there would be no moderators, and the name calling could go to an absurdly trollish, Flame ON!!! level.


Unrecommend is simply the registering of an opinion about a thread, just like Recommend is.

[Clintonista2]

11. Unrecommend is simply the registering of an opinion about a thread, just like Recommend is. - agreed

My problem is with people who claim that their only concern is free speech, many of whom actively use the alert button. As I said to someone else, I'm not against the alert system, if I wanted to listen to the opinions of trolls/republicans I would go watch fox news for an hour.

[MADem]

16. ALERT will only result in the removal of a post if that post violates the DU rules.

If I post something that you don't like, for example, my opinion as to the job that a cabinet official is doing, and you hit alert because you disagree with my opinion, that's not going to result in the removal of the post.

The only times posts are taken down is if there's a clear cut violation of the rules--personal insult, comments that echo the tone and substance of our political opponents, threats against members or public officials, that kind of nastyass stuff.

At least, that's what I've figured out from my time here and my reading of the rules. A moderator could probably discuss this topic in better depth than I can manage.

[Clintonista2]

18. Now we're just parsing words

The DU rules stifle free speech then.

[obliviously]

21. There are battle ground websites

where you have liberals and conservatives mixed. Sometimes when I am up for a fight I go to them. You can find anything you want. There is no need for DU to change. you need this format to.

[MADem]

23. No they don't. You're free to post the nastiest shit you can come up with, if you'd like.

You're simply not able to use Skinner's bandwidth to do it. That's in the rules, too.

Your free speech is not at all abrogated--you just have to find a like-minded site for your musings, if they don't meet with the requirements here. No one is stopping you from crapping, they're simply saying you cannot do it HERE.

There is a website that is diametrically opposed to the philosophies espoused here that would take those sorts of posts, but you'll have to find your own way there.

[Clintonista2]

24. I don't disagree with you at all

but the same thing can be said of the unrec button.

[MADem]

25. No, it's not the same thing.

Unrec is just an opinion. ALERT, properly used, is to document a rules violation, not a personal disagreement.

You can rec, or unrec, something that doesn't violate DU rules. In fact, most people do just that.

[Clintonista2]

29. Your "if you don't like it, don't use skinners bandwidth" reasoning CAN be applied to it

[MADem]

35. You've never read the DU rules, have you? That's not MY reasoning.

It's written in the DU rules--they say, very plainly in fact, that if you want to play the Freeper, do it somewhere else.

That's the DU administration's take on it--not mine. I happen to agree with them.

Here, let me save you some searching. You might want to, at your convenience, check out these guidelines. There's a link to them at the bottom of every page.

1. This is a moderated discussion forum with rules. We have a team of volunteer moderators who delete posts and ban disruptors. Members are strongly urged to familiarize themselves with our rules, and make an effort to become a positive member of our community. Those who do not risk having their posts deleted or their posting privileges revoked.
2. Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.
3. Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.
4. Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate. But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion. People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.
5. Copyrights: Do not copy-and-paste entire articles onto this discussion forum. When referencing copyrighted work, post a short excerpt (not exceeding 4 paragraphs) with a link back to the original.
6. Forum Administration: Respect the moderators and administrators, and respect their decisions. You can help make their job easier by clicking the "Alert" link on any post that might need moderator attention. Please understand that moderating errors and inconsistencies are inevitable on a large website like this. If you have a question about DU policies, or if you have a concern about an action a moderator has taken, please contact an admin privately. .....

....We ban conservative disruptors who are opposed to the broad goals of this website. If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned.

.....You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

....Your Freedom to Leave

All visitors to the Democratic Underground website are here voluntarily. Nobody is forcing you to post on this message board. The administrators try their best to be fair, and to make Democratic Underground a welcoming place for progressives who like Democratic Underground and who want to be here. If you do not like Democratic Underground, or the members of Democratic Underground, or the way we run Democratic Underground, then we strongly suggest that you exercise your right to leave. If we decide that you do not like this place very much, then we reserve the right to show you the door ourselves.

There's much, much more. You really should have a look at the whole enchilada. It's elucidative. Bottom line, though?

The administrators have the final authority on all matters relating to this website.



It's their party--we're just guests here. I have no problem with that--I sure wouldn't want the job of running this joint.

[texastoast]

10. Alert has to do with violating the board's rules

And I've alerted before and the mods didn't agree with me. Can't remember that poster who really pissed me off.

[nilram]

13. "Recommend" can only be used for good.

"Unrecommend" is used only for evil.

Understand? Don't make me unrecommend you.

[MADem]

22. That's simply not true.

If you recommend "Hitler was a saint compared to Obama because ....(fill in anything, from "He was a vegetarian" to "He adopted a shelter dog")" you're hardly on the side of the angels. You're behaving in a devisive and borderline--but not quite--trollish manner, as is the individual who created such a thread. Something like that would probably stumble along for a bit and eventually get a "LOCKING--FLAMEBAIT" from a mod.

And if you unrecommend any post that makes DU, as a group, look like a bunch of mouth-breathing, intolerant and uninformed fools, you're also doing a good thing.

[sam sarrha]

14. ...??? you really cant tell.??

[Clintonista2]

15. Correct

One deletes a post from history, the other stop the post from making the greatest page.

[sam sarrha]

19. when you join you sign a contract... // why should someone keep you out of LG if you get the VOTES

ONLY A fREEPER TROL WOULD CARE.. or bother... we complain about elections being stolen then F'n INVITE THE ASSHOLES TO STEAL THEM HERE..

[Clintonista2]

30. Why should only posts in which the majority agree with be given a special spot?

Seems like free speech is stifled when the opinions of the minority are ignored, and the opinions of the majority are held in places of importance.

[sam sarrha]

31. i've heard that bullshit before, i know where you pulled that out of,, i hope you washed your hands

well... that is what the star is for... things move very fast and good posts get lost quick.. want to read the unpopular stuff you can click on the list of previous pages at the bottom of the page,, that is the place of honor where they a kept. they got a special place too just for them.. maybe you should ask for a blue star to be put down there to make everybody happy...

[Canuckistanian]

20. Alerts have to be justified to be actionable

I'm sure the mods only remove posts in accordance with DU rules.

Alerts are probably unwarranted in the majority of cases.

However, in the USSC ruling of Underpants v. Bertha Venation (2005)..... sorry, I got carried away listening to Sotomayor.

[Laelth]

26. Difficult question.

Both are an "attempt" to stifle speech--i.e. to censor. They work in different ways, of course. DU, because it is not the government, is not bound by the 1st Amendment. DU is free to censor whatever it wants, whenever it wants. And DU does this regularly--by banning posters who disrupt, moving threads to less desirable forums, locking threads, etc. All of those are acts that stifle or limit speech, and they are all censorship. They're O.K., though, because DU is not the government and is not bound by the 1st Amendment. The alert button will cause censorship to happen if a poster has violated DU's rules. The unrec function causes censorship if it prevents a given thread from appearing on the Greatest Page (where that speech would get more exposure).

Let me make a legal analogy. Take "free speech zones," for example. Those are censorship, in and of themselves, and an abridgment of our 1st Amendment rights because they limit speech, but the Supreme Court allows them because the government has a compelling interest in protecting safety and public order. The Court doesn't say, "That's not censorship." The Court freely admits that it is censorship (because it limits exposure to certain speech), but free speech zones are a form of censorship that the Court will allow because the state's interest in safety and public order is compelling. The point is that censorship doesn't mean "completely taking away your right to speak." Anything that even limits your right to speak (or express yourself in any way) is recognized as censorship by the Supreme Court of the United States.

Anything that gives the members the ability to limit speech (even just by keeping a thread away from the Greatest Page by unrecommending it) is censorship because it limits speech by limiting others' exposure to that speech--just like a "free speech zone" does. Hitting the alert button might cause censorship to happen too, if a given mod agrees that DU's rules have been broken. Both are attempts at censorship, however.

I hope that makes sense.

:dem:

-Laelth

[TexasObserver]

27. It doesn't, but logic is not the strong suit of the complainers.

[Rex]

28. Because alert is for stopping trolls and unrec means someone just

doesn't agree with the OP for whatever reason. IMO.

[sam sarrha]

32. dupe

[sam sarrha]

33. dupe

[sam sarrha]

34. it is our attempt at Bipartisanship, and it looks like it is working as good as Obama's