Is it only progressive if you are nice?

[Tim01]

I am a little confused about the term progressive. I have been labeled libertarian, so maybe that is it.
I have formed my views based on my own life. I make no apologies for them.
I found myself living in a tent in the woods.(Long story, me 19, her 35)
Every night my friend would drop me off at the end of the abandoned street to make my way back to my tent. Temps got down to 10 degrees f. I asked once or twice if I could crash at his place. Not a chance. I was healthy strong, and could earn an income.
He told me I would have a place to live when I wanted it bad enough. It turned out he was right. (About me, at this point).

Is this form of "tough love" too mean to be progressive?

I am better for his treatment of me.
I rented a room. Then an apartment with my new girlfriend. Got married. All the usual stuff.

[Oregone]

1. "I have formed my views based on my own life"

Thats not always the best way to find objective truths. And as for the gray areas, sometimes learning about those comes from looking under rocks you may not happen by

[Tim01]

5. Good point, really. My experiences are not the same as others. nt

[Hello_Kitty]

2. Good thing you didn't get sick or become disabled.

And this might seem like I'm picking a nit, but what does getting married have to do with being responsible? Believe it or not, it's possible to be a responsible adult while remaining single.

[Tim01]

7. You're right. I guess I was just trying to illustrate I became mainstream.

If I had become sick I would have gone to the emergency room.
If I had become disabled I would have been fucked.
I am disabled now by the way. Not homeless though.

[BlooInBloo]

3. That's one common way to deal with the homeless problem: say they WANT to be poor...

Then there's no problem.

[Tim01]

4. Since I have actually been there.

I was homeless by choice. The people I knew were homeless by choice.
I talked to on guy who said he slept all day so he could move around at night so he didn't freeze. He told me about another guy who had a really nice place until the county dozed it over.
That was my experience in the outskirts of D.C.

Please feel free to talk to me directly since I was a homeless person.

[noamnety]

11. You aren't the spokesman for all homeless people

nor does it sound like you are representative of most of the long-term homeless.

This is from an old post from my journal here:

Claire was talking today about invisible people. When she went to Chicago last year over Easter break, she and her friend saw a man on the street corner trying to ask for directions. He was old, and disheveled, and looked, she said, like he might be homeless. He was asking for bus information, so he could go across town, and person after person walked past him without making eye contact. He began prefacing his request with a statement that he wasn’t asking for money. He held out his hand with money in it to show he already had money, he wasn’t begging, he just needed to know how to get across town.

Claire and her friend stopped and asked where he was trying to go. They didn’t know their way around Chicago, but they at least had a bus map with them. They unfolded the map, and were trying to figure it out. The minute these two respectable looking young women unfolded a map, help materialized out of thin air. They didn’t even need to ask for the help. A well-dressed woman spontaneously joined them, asked where they were trying to go (automatically assuming they were the ones that needed help), and when she didn’t know the bus route, she whipped out her cell phone, dialed a friend, who called the bus station, and got the schedule for them. During the entire conversation, she never addressed the man directly, even after being told the directions were for him. The man wasn’t able to make it to the bus stop, because his hips were bad and he couldn’t walk more than a few steps at a time, but he was trying to see his brother in the hospital, and was afraid his brother would die before he could manage to get there. They ended up hailing a cab for him, but she was sorry now, she said, that they hadn’t gotten in the cab with him and made sure he got to the hospital safely.

I found out today at the rally that somewhere in Biloxi, Caroline had picked up a homeless guy in her car. He had spent the last 6 months just trying to avoid being arrested by the Biloxi police for the crime of being homeless. He joined our march and came with us to New Orleans. I asked her to point him out to me, she just vaguely smiled, nodded towards the crowd, and said he’s the most respectable looking person here.

That homeless guy in Biloxi, he had a life. The hurricane took it away, he'd been living in his car since then, and his full time job was avoiding the police so he wouldn't be arrested for the crime of being homeless. He was a staunch republican, living out of a car with republican stickers all over it, and he joined us for the rest of our week there, joined probably the most radical of the left that there is, IVAW folks, Code Pink, Cindy Sheehan. It took himself being in that situation - not by choice, not on a lark when he was 19 years old cavorting with his older lover - and seeing what it was not just to have no government help, but having the government harass him and prevent others from providing aid - for him to understand what progressives were.

[vadawg]

12. by no means is he the universalspokesman, neither are you, he was relating his experience

my experience with the homeless is probuably totally different from you but no less viable.

[vadawg]

6. i gotta agree tough love sometimes works wonders

your friend was right, you probuably benifited in the long run from him seemingly being mean towards you.

[Laelth]

8. If you believe others, for whatever reason, should have to endure that ...

... then, yes. I think that's too mean to be acceptable to most progressives I know. If you think that no person in the richest country on Earth should ever be denied shelter, if they want it, that sounds more progressive to me.

I can't tell from your story which camp you would fall into.

:dem:

-Laelth

[vadawg]

9. question is should you be the one who has to provide it

or are you allowed to say no and still be a progressive, seems his friend knew him well and wasnt prepared to enable him. i would say his friend was right in not allowing him to stay at his place whenever he wanted.

[noamnety]

10. In Libertarian Land

everyone is healthy strong and can earn an income. Job opportunities are there for everyone - if only you want them. In Libertarian Land, there is one job available for each individual who wants to work.

Nobody is disabled. Homeless people are homeless because they want to live in tents - and let's be honest, it's kind of fun because everyone gets a girlfriend/boyfriend to boink and share the adventure with. They aren't homeless because their home was foreclosed due to a bankruptcy from a medical crisis.

In Libertarian Land, people who are have a medical crisis have it because they didn't want to be healthy, not bad enough anyway.

And everyone is straight, or if they are gay they can still get an apartment because there is no housing discrimination. Unless apartment owners want to discriminate, that's their right in Libertarian Land, and that's okay because people who are discriminated against are "better" for it.

This is how my life is, therefore I assume it's how everyone's life is.

[Tim01]

20. Everybody gets free everything in the land where noamnety is dictator.

Every person is issued a nice house in exchange for being born. Food, clothing, and pot is given in exchange for breathing. The guys and the girls all wear skirts made from natural hemp fiber. Animals roam free and there is no violence. Everything is paid for from with the bottomless bank accounts of rich people. Everybody sings songs and play drums long into the night. A feast every day with 3 nutritionally balanced earth friendly meals. Corporations don't exist because they don't want to. And everybody is so very much smarter than everybody else.


I'm getting the feeling you get up on the wrong side of the bed everyday on purpose.

[noamnety]

23. The reason your post makes me less than gracious

is in part because I'm a veteran and that's the group that's most likely to be homeless. There are so many issues as to why that is, but a big part of it is PTSD and related problems. I have a problem with a 19 year old who was out by choice, camping as a youthful adventure, as someone correctly described it, using that experience to try to convince other people here that the problem with combat vets is they need your "tough love."

And in part it's because most bankruptcies are because of a medical crisis - leading to foreclosures and homelessness. People who are sick, broke, living on the street, and can't get a job because they don't even have a phone for interview callbacks or because they are still too sick to work don't need help in the form of neglect, repackaged as "tough love."

In part I am less than gracious because you seem to have portrayed some guy trying not to freeze to death as if that is the life he wants. My sister fought in her town against an ordnance to keep shelters closed until Dec 1, and reclose them after April 1. And I remember her email, short and terse, when one of the homeless guys she'd been working for was found frozen to death.

[Tim01]

26. Reality isn't what you think it should be.

I was not camping, I got ripped off. Lost my car, my apartment and all of my money all at once. I walked in the middle of the night for 7 hours until somebody gave a me a ride into town where I could find some work.
At one point I found myself passed out half out of my tent with snow on me, fumes from the stove had got me. I was pretty cold.
The homeless guy who walked around all night told me he preferred to live like that because he hated having a job and being told what to do. Not having bills meant not needing a job. His words.

We let Keith and his girlfriend live with us for a while since she had a baby. Keith told us how to go through town picking up a dollar here and there until you had $20. Stuff like lying to the grocery store and telling them you lost you money in the soda machine. When they would get some money they would come home drunk. He had a job for a short time and got fired for arguing with his supervisor. He stayed in trouble for not showing up for court and stuff like that.
Last I heard he was living in an apartment with his new wife and his old girlfriend. Both of the girls worked and he stayed home and was the babysitter.

I knew one guy in town who was mentally challenged. He got a check each month and he stayed drunk at the cheap motel with prostitutes until his money would run out. I was a cab driver, I gave him rides a few times. He froze to death down next to the railroad tracks. He probably should have been in some kind of care. I don't know why he was not.

One other homeless guy was obviously in bad need of medical attention for his feet. He could barely walk, let alone work. I gave him rides whether he had the money or not. I would have helped him more but he would have none of it. He was very old. I haven't seen him since I stopped driving a cab.

This is the extent of all the homeless people I have had personal experience with. About half them prefer not to do the work to stop being homeless.

Keith and a few others are homeless because of their choices.

[noamnety]

27. And based on all that

what are your conclusions about what society should provide, in general, for the homeless - given the wide variety of situations, recognizing that some are in that situation because they've been ripped off, some are in that situation because they are mentally challenged, some have urgent medical needs, some are freezing to death?

[mudplanet]

13. Tough love has nothing to do with being progressive

I've been homeless, and I've worked with the homeless.

Most homeless people don't want to be homeless. I'll bet even most of the people that you thought wanted to be homeless didn't really want to be homeless - I wouldn't give much credence to some guy that said he choose homelessness so he could sleep all day and walk around all night to stay warm. Sounds like fun to me - not. There are, and will probably always be, some people that choose to be homeless - traditional hobos come to mind.

Probably 20% - 40% of homeless people are mentally ill (more in some locales). Another significant percentage is probably borderline developmentally disabled. (these figures are liable to change drastically once the extended unemployment ends) The vast majority of homeless people are homeless because they can't compete in this culture and because under capitalism human beings have no intrinsic value (thus no right to shelter and food).

Tough love isn't "mean." Tough love is meant to be "refusing to be an enabler." If you have the ways and means to end your homelessness without anyone's help and without too much suffering, then maybe tough love was appropriate.

Don't confuse the concept of though love with conservative ethics. Conservative values hold that people will not work unless they are desperate so that maintaining a level of unemployment (usually around 6%, this is actual policy as practiced by your govt) is good because then people are too desperate to demand more money or better conditions. Further, that that 6% of people that cannot compete are "substandard" in some way (they aren't smart enough or strong enough to be valuable employees) and it is in society's interest that they perish, or lazy, so they deserve to perish.

That's not tough love, it's moral bankruptcy.

[Tim01]

22. A very insightful post, thanks. nt

[jgraz]

14. It's usually not a good idea to base your moral philosophy on what happens to you at 19

Try the tent living again when you're in your mid-fifties. I bet it doesn't go so well for you.

[Lilith Velkor]

15. So "tough love" gives you the ability to pull money out of your ass so you can rent a room?

If so, then it's definitely a progressive thing.

Gosh, I wish I had told more people to go freeze to death last winter - I could have solved the economic crisis right fucking there.

[Selatius]

16. I hate to pull the religion card, but in situations like this, I ask myself "What would Jesus do?"

Jesus, if he had a home, probably would've offered shelter. Again, that's based on my own interpretation of the teachings of Jesus.

That aside, I probably would've offered a place to stay for the night despite your health and ability to find and hold a job and despite what my religious beliefs are, especially if it was 10 degrees F. out there. If you had frozen to death and I had refused you a spot on the sofa, I would be guilt ridden, probably for the rest of my days.

It is a survival tactic to help and to be kind. If people helped each other and worked together to achieve common goals, they have a higher chance of survival than if they simply tried to go it alone or even battled each other.

However, I wouldn't say I'm the type of person who would let you stay forever. Eventually, you would have to stand on your own two feet if you are able to. If you were disabled, it would be a different matter.

[rrneck]

17. The root word of

progressive is progress.

Progressives generally desire increased cultural or economic change. If you or someone you know have a landfill in their back yard, brown water, no health insurance, little education, or if you're homeless you want change (for the better) you're probably a progressive. The term liberal means more or less the same thing. Since all cultures change, liberals would like more of that or in other words "a liberal amount of change".

I guess if I were to try to make a distinction between progressive or libertarian, and granted I don't really know you, I might suggest you ask yourself whether you sought change to make yourself and those around you better or did you change for personal gain? Since you are human, it's a fair bet there was a mixture of both.

At least that's the way I understand it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. "nice"? no. Conscientious, yes.

But I come from a family of Molly McGuires, so "nice" was never heavily overvalued.

[Control-Z]

19. "homeless by choice", as you describe it, is not homelessness.

A 19 YO guy with a job, good health, and with the perks of a ride to and from work, and a warm bed partner - choosing to live in a tent, is called camping, not homelessness. You probably also had at least one parent to go home to, if you really needed. (I'm just assuming that. Most teenagers do. So correct me if I'm wrong.)

There is a huge difference for the truly homeless. Even for the lucky ones who have a tent. The fear alone can be paralyzing, not to mention the shame, that shouldn't exist, but does. Many have no companion. Most have no job, money or income, no place to sleep, shower or wash clothes - or any of the normal things that one would need to do in a day to be a part of society, or that would be required to prepare for a job or job interview. Many have children to feed, shelter, and provide schooling for. A female, by nature, usually struggles more than a man under these conditions. (Try putting on a pair of pantyhose in the backseat of of car, or to wash, blow dry and/or curl hair, or do makeup - all of which are required to fit in with society, and to job hunt. There is no peeing in the bushes, in a cup, or on the side of the road. And there is always that need for a tampon and a place to use it.) Nothing is easy when you are truly homeless. The homeless face hopelessness and despondency on top of all the other obstacles. Add a disability or illness to the mix, and I'm not sure if anyone gets out without a helping hand.

What you experienced was a choice - a youthful adventure. Experimentation. No shame there. But it wasn't homelessness. I'm surprised you feel the comparison is legitimate. I wouldn't even give it a "tough love" label because a friend wouldn't let you spend the night away from your chosen home. You weren't sick, despondent, or in need of a job or food. If you feel that was tough love, then you've had a very sheltered and lucky life. I would even suggest that you didn't mainstream out of homelessness. You just grew up.

I'm not trying to be mean, or get on your case. You're just way off the mark on this.

[Heidi]

21. "Tough love" has an awfully parental ring to it, and is not a term I would use to describe

ways of dealing with equal, adult human beings. I half expected to read the term "welfare queens" somewhere toward the end of your post.

[Mrs. Overall]

24. Sorry, but what is with all the "I'm confused, DU, please explain this to me" threads lately?

I've never seen so many "Oh, please help. Oh, please explain. Oh, I'm so confused" threads posted by a number of individuals.

[Romulox]

25. You can be a "progressive" and spout crappy RW economics so long as you support abortion

And maybe one or two other "culture wars" position.

This board is a great example of that!

[Paladin]

28. There Is Nothing Remotely Progressive About Such Treatment, As Described.

Did that "friend" of yours get you off drugs or booze, something worthwhile like that, something that would come even close to a reasonable example of "tough love"? Doesn't sound like it, if you were "healthy strong and could earn an income" at the time. If there was no constructive point to your being consigned to a tent in freezing weather, your "friend" was just being a sadistic asshole, and somehow you ended up being grateful for the way you were treated. How in the hell can the term "progressive" be applied to any aspect of the ugly circumstances you've described, here?

And here are a couple of follow-up questions: 1.) How would you describe the political views of your "friend"; and 2.) you say others have labeled you as libertarian. How do you label yourself, politically? Bonus points for honest answers....