Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

College's "sexual harassment" policy found unconstitutional

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:14 PM
Original message
College's "sexual harassment" policy found unconstitutional
not surprising when many of these policies go WAY too far in trying to restrict speech. these policies are frequently challenged and overturned. this is an interesting one.

source: www.volokh.com

Los Angeles City College "Sexual Harassment" Policy Preliminarily Enjoined on First Amendment Grounds: This emerges from the incident in which a professor in a speech class refused to grade a student's presentation, apparently because of the religious nature of the student's presentation, the student's expression of opposition for same-sex marriage in the presentation, or both. (The professor apparently also called the student a "fascist bastard" in front of the class for having supported the anti-same-sex-marriage Prop. 8, and refused to let the student finish the presentation.) But the injunction, in Lopez v. Candaele, focuses on the policy, not the incident. Here's what the court says, in most relevant part (some paragraph breaks added):

The definitions section of the Policy, Section 15003, states:Sexual harassment is defined as: Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal, visual or physical conduct of a sexual nature, made by someone from or in the workplace or in the educational setting, under any of the following conditions: ..<.> (3) The conduct has the purpose or effect of having a negative impact upon the individual’s work or academic performance, or of creating an intimidating, hostile or offensive work or educational environment....

We conclude that the Policy prohibits a substantial amount of protected free speech, even judged in relation to unprotected conduct that it can validly prohibit. First, as the above quotations make clear, the Policy prohibits some speech solely because the speaker “has the purpose” of causing an effect, regardless of whether the speech actually has any effect. The Supreme Court has held that a school may not prohibit speech unless the speech will “materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school.” Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Cmty. Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 509 (1969). would undermine the school’s basic educational mission.”); Hazelwood Sch. Dist. v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260, 273 (1988) (holding that a high school may control the content of student speech in school-sponsored expressive activities so long as the controls are reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns).]

Other circuits have found similar sexual harassment policies that restrict speech based on the speaker’s motives to be unconstitutional in light of Tinker. See DeJohn, 537 F.3d at 317 (“he focus on motive is contrary to Tinker's requirement that speech cannot be prohibited in the absence of a tenable threat of disruption.”); Saxe, 240 F.3d at 216–17 (“As an initial matter, the Policy punishes not only speech that actually causes disruption, but also speech that merely intends to do so: by its terms, it covers speech ‘which has the purpose or effect of’ interfering with educational performance or creating a hostile environment. This ignores Tinker's requirement that a school must reasonably believe that speech will cause actual, material disruption before prohibiting it.”). Notably, in Saxe, a similar policy was found unconstitutional though it was adopted by an elementary and high school district, whose students receive less First Amendment protection than college students. Thus, the Policy’s regulation of speech based solely on the motive of the speaker is unconstitutional.

Moreover, by using subjective words such as “hostile” and “offensive,” the Policy is so subjective and broad that it applies to protected speech. In DeJohn, the Third Circuit concluded that such a policy must be invalidated unless it contains “a requirement that the conduct objectively and subjectively creates a hostile environment or substantially interferes with an individual’s work.” 537 F.3d at 318. Here, the Policy does not contain both a subjective and objective requirement. To the contrary, the District’s website admonishes, “If unsure if certain comments or behavior are offensive do not do it, do not say it.... Ask if something you do or say is being perceived as offensive or unwelcome.”



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Does this mean Liberty U is going to have problems with many of their policies? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. no, because it is a purely private institution
and does not claim to promote academic freedom, or accept federal monies etc. in the case at hand, this was a PUBLIC college.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. no, because it is a purely private institution
and does not claim to promote academic freedom, or accept federal monies etc. in the case at hand, this was a PUBLIC college.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Fascist Bastard"......That professor is a man after my own heart.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I can understand your sympathy, but the man acted unprofessionally.
Whatever his sympathies, he's a college professor, outbursts and anger like that in the classroom do credit neither to his own professionalism, nor to the whole of academia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Oh, I agree with that.....but in my heart, I'm totally with him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. yeah, he was unprofessional
I had to deal with right-wing loons all the time; I did not call them "fascist bastards", but rather I politely encouraged them to explain their point of view. They usually obliged, hanging themselves with their own proverbial rope in front of the reasonable students in the rest of the class. I remember explaining the progressive income tax one day, when a young student blurted out "That's communism!", whereupon I stated that yes, Karl Marx favored progressive taxation, but that it was also the system we have in the USA (she didn't know that), and that progressive taxation was advocated by Adam Smith, the founder of conservative economics. Politely explaining reality works much better than simply calling a student a "fascist bastard".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. He's obviously biased, belligerent and unproffessional
those aren't traits I would look aspire to.

Teachers ought to be unbiased, and while they're free to critique students work I would say that direct attacks are out of line. As is punishing individuals for their stated beliefs.

Imagine if the kid gave a pro-gay marriage speech in a class with a fundy teacher, who called him a disgusting pervert and ordered him to stop. Would that be tolerable?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Precisely my point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. Why out teachers be unbiased?
And what does that look like? I can't imagine how women's studies could happen in an "unbiased" classroom, or how people could teach something as basic as the public sphere in the early republic without a good number of biases. I teach at a major university and, believe me, I teach with a point of view. On the other hand, I often tell them I am not a purveyor of absolute Truth and encourage disagreement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. The professor was being ridiculous.
You can't just call a student out like that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. The "kid" in question is being backed by the Alliance Defense Fund.
Edited on Wed Jul-15-09 04:31 PM by Cerridwen
Wanna guess who they are?

Wanna guess what this kid was speechifying in class?

Wanna guess how much this has to do with First Amendment versus "religious" whack-nuttery?

From another article:

Hacker said Alliance filed a similar suit in 2006 against Missouri State University over the school's attempt to discipline a Christian social-work student who refused to support adoptions by same-sex couples. The college settled the suit by, among other things, ordering an external review of the social-work program, Hacker said.

The Los Angeles Community College District's offices were closed Friday for the Presidents Day holiday, and the general counsel, Camille A. Goulet, could not be reached. But in a letter to Alliance, the district said it deemed Lopez's complaint "extremely serious in nature" and had launched a private disciplinary process.

In the letter, Dean Allison Jones also said that two students had been "deeply offended" by Lopez's address, one of whom stated that "this student should have to pay some price for preaching hate in the classroom."

Hacker said the district's response was inadequate.

"What they didn't do was ensure this wouldn't happen to other students," he said. "The dean accused Jonathan of offending other students." (emphasis added)
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/16/local/me-speech16?pg=1

Usually, when "PC goes wild," you'll find a "religious" wing-nut behind it.

eta: "Lopez is represented by the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal organization based in Scottsdale, Ariz., and co-founded by evangelical leader James Dobson of Focus on the Family."


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. i don't care if he's represented by the illuminati
the case was made to the courts, and the courts made a sound decision.

our constitution protects people we disagree with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I do. The alliance defense fund is not interested in free speech.
They are interested in free speech for "their" people only and will muzzle as many of us as they can to insure such.

I'm still googling and researching so I've not yet decided whether or not I like the court's decision; yes, it is possible that courts make bad laws/decisions. Sad, but true.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. But aren't "their people" entitled to free speech?
And if so shouldn't it be acceptable for them to defend free speech for "their people"?

Trying to censor others would be a side issue, that is not involved in this case.

The klan would likely censor (or worse) many people, they are still entitled to free speech (according to the courts, the ACLU, myself and others at least).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Yep, but not at the expense of others'.
Too often, organizations like this do their best to stifle free speech while using the free speech argument.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. But in this case,
only this case, I don't see them stifling anyones free speech. They (if they were involved) helped strike down a rule that was deemed unconstitutional. That seems ok to me.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. That was repealed in 2007 - see post #18.
And the lawsuit goes on...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. read the civil minutes
i already posted the link. over and over and over again, college speech codes get thrown out for being unconstitutional. it is a sad state of affairs that the campus kommisars attempt to stifle free speech so egregiously. victories for free speech are victories. i don;'t care if they are done on behalf of rightwing christian fundamentalists or leftwing pagan vegan socialists. who fucking cares? an injustice to one is an injustice to all. hth
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I did. The first time you posted it. Then I read it again at the adf
site and also all the letters back and forth between adf and the college in which the college tied itself into knots trying to accommodate lopez and how his fellow students felt about having to listen to his free speech in action.

Then I looked around some more - see post #18. The policy in question was repealed in 2007. It hadn't been pulled from the websites. Lousy web maintenance and lousy lawyering; since the lawyers didn't mention the repealed policy during the first hearing.

So now we have a lawsuit purporting free speech about a policy no longer in existence or enforced and a prof who has been disciplined and a student whose free speech earned him an A and his fellow students feeling they shouldn't have to tolerate his intolerance and a "legal" group making hay and getting media coverage and showing the "evil liberal agenda" with regards to free speech issues while useful idiots get to collect money from an unconstitutional breach that never happened and other useful idiots prattle on about free speech adf would have no compunction of stiffling and shutting down in a "new york minute" were said free speech that of "leftwing pagan vegan socialists."

I bet you believe we can make nice with repubs and do that whole "bipartisan" thingy, too, huh?

It'll be entertaining to see how this plays out as the repealed policy has now been noted as repealed. How again is a non-existent policy unconstitutional?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. it's very simple
having the policy in print, where it APPEARS to be in effect is still unconstitutional because it has a chilling effect. it was on the website, etc. if a city posts a sign that says "no black people allowed per city policy" but there IS no such policy, would the city still be prone to lawsuit? of course.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Do you think the kid looked it up before or after the prof was a jerk?
Do you think the kid looked it up?

Or do you think the kid went whining to someone and they found the "facts" after the fact to make a case?

By the way, your analogy doesn't quite fit. A sign hanging in one's face in a place one frequents is not quite the same as have to search a website for policy statements.

But, quite frankly, I don't care. What I care about is people on "our" side being so willing to jump on a bandwagon with those from the other side simply because it appears to support what we support. The "enemy of my enemy" ain't always my friend; and many times, the "enemy of my enemy" is more than happy to use my gullibility to get what they want and leave me drowning; even if, they may sometimes drown themselves. (See "The Frog and the Scorpion")

I've seen it happen over and over and over.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. i'm not about "sides" as much as i am about civil rights
justice, the constitution, etc. if an injustice is done to a conservative or a liberal, makes no difference to me. i care about the constitution and principles, not "teams" and partisanship. when it comes to first amendment rights, i frequently support the rights of those i disagree with, because so many assmunches run afoul of unconstitutional speech restriction. i support the right of people to burn the flag, even though i find it disgusting. i support the rights of holocaust deniers, even though i think they are human refuse, etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. For you it is. For them it's not. You're being played and they get
another notch in their belt and another "evil liberal" (who's a piss poor example of one, but an example just the same) is shut down. Or don't you think the prof has the right to his free speech as well? Never mind. Don't answer.

I've said what I wanted to say.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. the issue isn't the professors free speec
it is the college's sexual harassment policy. hth
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. You're right the kid was a twit, and a schill for theocrats.
The professor in question however needs to learn self control. This was a class on rhetoric and debate if I remember correctly, what did those students learn from that outburst? That if you are in a position of authority, you have no need to listen respectfully to opposing viewpoints, even ones you find deeply disgusting, you can merely respond with scorn, anger and insults. I sympathize with the professor who was deeply insulted and likely emotionally wounded, the marriage equality question brooks little, if any neutrality, but still, he had a deeper responsibility to his students and he failed, becoming the pawn of that kids backers in the bargain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Yep, the prof was a jerk.
It's amazing how many shitty laws and rulings come from legislating the jerk and/or the anomaly.

Based on some of what I read, the students learned from said jerk, that he didn't like the fact that lopez was insulting and preaching hate and agreed with the jerk.

Take from that what you will.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I take from that
that the students learned that the proper approach to insulting and asenine political argument is insults and ad-hominem attacks.

And we wonder why the political dialogue continues to coarsen in this nation, we teach every rising generation that so long as you can outshout your opponent, you are right, who needs logic, a bullhorn is faster and louder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Too bad we can't find something between politely sitting and being
insulted and harangued and bellowing back.

I'm sure there must be one; this prof didn't exemplify one neither did lopez.

Oh well. I'm not a legal eagle. I was just googling for the rest of the story.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Agreed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. um - what does the Prof's behaviour
have to do with "sexual harassment"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. It's part of the lawsuit being catapulted by james dobson's
focus on the family "legal" ("xtians' are being persecuted!!!) group

There's a link in my post above with part of this story from the LA Times.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Oh, and it's because the kid suing was giving a presentation against same sex
marriage as a class presentation.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. read the civil minutes. link provided.
it's here in PDF format.

not some ridiculous media summary, but the actual court documents:

http://volokh.com/files/lopezpi.pdf

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
surrealAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
30. Surely this is political harassment, or perhaps religious harassment ...
... but there's nothing sexual about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
15. A link to the ruling.
It looks to me as though there's still some activity and that it's not a "done deal," yet; it says "preliminary injunction."

Plaintiff’s Motion for Preliminary Injunction is GRANTED. Defendants, their officers, agents, servants, employees, and attorneys, and other persons who are in active participation with such people, who receive actual notice by personal service or otherwise, are hereby ENJOINED from enforcing or publicizing the purported existence of the Policy during the pendency of these proceedings. In aid of this injunction, the Policy, along with any partial quotation, paraphrase, explanation, or other reference to the Policy that violates this Order, SHALL be removed from the District’s and LACC’s websites, including but not limited to the webpages referenced in exhibits 10 and 11 to the Complaint. Within fourteen (14) days hereof, Defendants SHALL submit a declaration under penalty of perjury from an individual with personal knowledge attesting that such references have been removed from the websites. The declarant SHALL specify the actions taken to comply with this Order.
IT IS SO ORDERED.


Though I hate to link to the same site you did, here's the link http://volokh.com/files/lopezpi.pdf

Oh well, any legal eagles with the time will set me straight one way or the other. (given the nature of this suit, I think I just made a pun.)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
18. The policy in question, was repealed in 2007...
from this link, though it was still on their website. The college needs new lawyers. Yeesh!

King discounted arguments that the policy challenge should be thrown out because Lopez got an A in the class and his professor, John Matteson, was disciplined. In an eleventh-hour argument, the district also asserted that the sexual harassment code had been repealed in 2007.

King said the policy remained on district and L.A. City College websites, and thus could continue to discourage free expression. He also chided the district for not mentioning the repeal at an earlier hearing.

"We are chagrined that defense counsel and Defendants’ representative who were present at the oral argument on June 10, 2009 were apparently ignorant of the status of a policy they purported to defend," King’s order said. "This lack of preparedness is viewed with great disfavor."

The injunction will remain in place as the rest of Lopez’s lawsuit proceeds. He is seeking financial damages. Camille Goulet, the general counsel, said the district had not decided whether to appeal but would "be diligent and conscientious in following any final court order."


The lawyers defended a policy that was repealed in 2007 but the judge found the repealed policy unconstitutional. Guess it's good it was repealed.

The lawsuit, however, continues on.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
38. One either supports free speech, or one doesn't. I do - no matter how offensive I might find it.
Lot's of DU'ers don't, claiming that society has a greater right to restrict speech in order to shield protected groups from speech that might even remotely offend them. And I accept that too - as long as they consistently reject the free speech protections.

What I don't accept is hypocrisy, i.e., let's say the student in question wrote an essay in favor of same-sex marriage instead of against it, and a right-wing professor refused to grade it and called the student a "communist pinko" in front of the class for having done so.

In that case, I reckon many in this thread would be howling about "free speech," and clamoring for the professor's metaphorical head - and so would I. But, then, I'm consistent about it. A good many are not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
39. Some folks are not meant to be teachers.
Those that can, do, those that can't, teach.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC