I want to understand the "birther" argument better

[DaveinJapan]

So, apparently their argument is that the President wasn't actually born in Hawaii, and they're trying to prove it right?

Now, they are not trying to argue that he was the son of Ann Dunham though, as far as I have seen.

It's apparent that someone with only one parent of American citizenship is eligible, since that's true of the President, but I'm assuming said person can not have ever held a dual citizenship? (in other words, even though his father was a Kenyan the family, I assume, never applied for a record of birth abroad of a Kenyan citizen which I believe he was entitled to get if desired)

I think the best way to figure out what I'm trying to understand is to offer up some examples. If you guys could just reply to all five examples as either "eligible" or "not eligible", I'd sure appreciate it (if course, feel free to elaborate all you want!).

1) A child born to one parent of American citizenship in America, with no record of declared citizenship in the other parents' home country

2) A child born to one parent of American citizenship in America, with a record of declared citizenship in the other parents' home country as well (dual citizen child)

3) A child born to both parents of American citizenship abroad, with a record of declared American citizenship via Consular's record of birth abroad (no other citizenship)

4) A child born to one parent of American citizenship abroad, with both a citizenship in the country of birth and American citizenship via Consular's record of birth abroad

5) A child born to both parents of American citizenship in an American territory or military base or similar circumstance (the McCain situation, I believe)

[RandomThoughts]

1. Constitution says a President has to be 35 and born in USA n/t

And President Obama was born in Hawaii.

[Deja Q]

9. Until they get Governor Groper to run...

:shrug:

[DaveinJapan]

10. Yes, I realize that.

But you don't have to be born in the 50 states though right?

Otherwise McCain wouldn't have been eligible.

Also, would that mean a child born to parents from another country (with citizenship abroad only) within the U.S.A. would also be eligible? That doesn't seem to make much sense (especially if said parents returned to their home country soon after the birth).

[Buzz Clik]

13. that is correct. McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone.

[Iggo]

16. Yes.

Children born in the United States whose parents are citizens of Mexico are American citizens.

It makes tons of perfect sense. They were born here, so they're from here. Simple. It's been that way for about seventeen thousand five hundred years, give or take.

[Canuckistanian]

12. That SHOULD be the argument ender

But these freaks keep hoping for proof that Obama was born in Kenya, despite NO EVIDENCE at all that he was.

I'm just glad they're all wasting time on this wild goose chase instead of doing REAL damage.

[Historic NY]

19. Even if he was he is still an American, his MOTHER WAS>>>>>>>get it.

[Canuckistanian]

21. I get it.

The birfers don't.

[Historic NY]

22. Okay.

:hi:

[LuckyTheDog]

18. He was. Of course.

But, suppose he was not. The law most often cited by birthers was meant to apply to U.S. citizens who established residency outside the U.S. It'd be a stretch to apply it to someone who was merely traveling outside the U.S. and went into labor before she could return.

My best guess abut why Obama won't release the "long form" birth certificate is that doing so would subject any doctor named on it to harassment by a legion of crazies. Plus, the nutballs would never be satisfied anyway.

[The Straight Story]

2. Here it is step by step

Smoke some crack. Then do a lot of meth.

Join the klan. Repeat first step.

Get a website made of tinfoil, the used tin foil from the meth lab. Make a hat from it too.

Make up shit, spend tons of hours doing it. Let the drugs help you make it up.

There. All done.

[SIMPLYB1980]

4. LoL! Perfection. nt

[Fumesucker]

11. Shorter The Straight Story:

No, you don't.

It hurts the normal functioning brain to try and wrap itself around wingnut apocrypha, they speak in a wondrously fluid tongue which changes meaning in an instant and makes Newspeak sound like Latin.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all."

[Xipe Totec]

3. Their argument is very simple

they want a Republican in the White House.

Nothing else will make them happy.

I look forward to another 8 years of watching them writhe in misery.

[noamnety]

5. None of what you posted is relevent to their real concern.

Here's their concern: Obama is black; he can't be a real American.

[XemaSab]

6. That would be the correct choice

Black people are not a part of the same heritage as real Americans. x(

[petronius]

7. Succinct and correct: 'American' = 'white'; 'not white' = 'not American'

:puke:

[Hepburn]

8. Bingo! n/t

[Buzz Clik]

14. It's not as if the insanity of conspiracy theories has no history of obsessive behavior.

Can you say WTC 7?

[Blue For You]

15. Message to birthers:

Even if you could prove this dumb shit and Obama had to step down, we would just install Michelle as President. We are powerful, don't screw with us.

[AspenRose]

17. Slightly off topic, but found it interesting anyway

"Andrew Jackson (1829-1837) is the only president born of two immigrants, both Irish.

Presidents with one immigrant parent are Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809), whose mother was born in England, James Buchanan (1857-1861) and Chester Arthur (1881-1885), both of whom had Irish fathers, and Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921) and Herbert Hoover (1929-1933), whose mothers were born respectively in England and Canada."

http://community.myvoa.com/_The-Seventh-US-President-with-a-Foreign-Born-Parent/blog/137360/45137.html?b=

I think they're more bent out of shape that Obama's black, or with African ancestry, than anything else. And as was mentioned upthread, to these people, anyone who isn't white (WASP) is not a REAL American, even if they were born here. They ought to just come clean with it and admit that that's their real problem, because they aren't fooling anyone. And Alan Keyes is carrying water for the birthers because he got his ass kicked in the Illinois Senate race by Obama.

[Historic NY]

20. Alan Keys is UNAmerican so why are you listening to him...

he is coo coo for coco puffs.

[AspenRose]

24. ?

Huh?
:shrug: I'm not listening to Keyes. He's in on the Birther movement, too. I'm just pointing out that he's the lone black guy in a sea of racists, and what (I suspect) his motivation is: He hates Obama because he lost to him. In all of this crap he still finds time to get arrested at "pro life" demonstrations at Notre Dame. Busy guy, he is. :dunce:

[Historic NY]

25. his star is fading..what happened to his daughter?

[iris27]

27. he kicked her out for being gay, just like Randall Terry did with his son Jamiel.

She is an anarchist vegan, does a lot of work with Food not Bombs and other aid orgs. Still anti-abortion though...believes it is genocide against black people.

[Motown_Johnny]

23. I don't think they are trying to prove anything. They want "us" to provide proof and then won't

accept the proof once we present it.


it's just noise, tune it out

[ohheckyeah]

26. Here's the argument in a nutshell:

Let us assume for the purposes of this article that the information on the so called “COLB” is correct, truthfully we have no evidence that it is not, though equally we have no evidence that it is, and even under Hawaiian State Law such an abstract is regarded as insufficient to fully establish one’s status in law. BHO II’s own surrogates have freely admitted that he was born bipatride under the UK Nationality Act of 1948 and that in virtue of his father he was a United Kingdom and Colonies Citizen and a Subject of the British Crown at birth. That would have been true had he been born on the moon. Assuming that he was born in Hawaii, BHO II was born a US Citizen under ius soli also. No act of volition was required in either event. Thus he was first a Subject of the British Crown and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies and second a citizen of the USA. Had he been born outside the USA under the law as it stood in August of 1961 he could have been a US Citizen only if his mother was unmarried, we shall not discuss that issue here but it does demonstrate the secondary nature of the US citizenship.

I fully endorse what Madison has to say on this point:

“Therefore, we can say with confidence that a natural-born citizen of the United States means those persons born whose father the United States already has an established jurisdiction over, i.e., born to father’s who are themselves citizens of the United States. A person who had been born under a double allegiance cannot be said to be a natural-born citizen of the United States because such status is not recognized (only in fiction of law). A child born to an American mother and alien father could be said to be a citizen of the United States by some affirmative act of law but never entitled to be a natural-born citizen because through laws of nature the child inherits the condition of their father.”

I should point out here that I find the sexist nature of the law on this point really rather offensive and utterly unfair but that I accept that it is the law both nationally and internationally, it is embodied, so far as I can see, in the Hague Convention of 1930.

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/natural-born-citizens-or-how-to-beat-a-subject-to-death-with-a-stick/

Basically it's a bunch of crap.

[krispos42]

28. Two words:

Jus soli

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli


He was born in Hawaii 2 years after it became a state with one parent a natural-born citizen. That's not enough for them, though, so they're trying to prove he was really born in Kenya or some shit.



Jus soli, birthers... suck it up!


Maybe the birthers should go dig up Dubya's birth certificate. I'm sure it's on file in Crawford, Texas... I mean, New Haven, Connecticut.

[mp9200]

29. you're wasting your time

It's like talking to a brick wall