You wont believe this .....

[TheCoxwain]

I was having a discussion with an undergrad friend of mine ... more a heated argument ( Fueled by a little Alcohol) than a discussion on Health care reform...

He thinks progress should be Darwinian in nature .. the weak and the unfit should perish for the greater good of the species.

I took him up on his own argument ... and retorted that for some species the strength lies in numbers .. what might be perceived weakness ( lack of money) in an individual is made up by having greater numbers and a common objective....and the progress is indeed Darwinian.

We argued for a while .....and it finally came down to this -- He said - "Why should I pay for someone else's sickness - If someone is sick and cannot pay for his treatment - I dont care if he dies"


This wasn't even the most shocking part ...

This guy is looking for a job and is staying in my basement for the past month .. He is my friend and I gave him a place to camp while he hunts for a job.

What can I say ???

It must be the Alcohol.

[Spazito]

1. It seems to be a consistent flaw in people like your friend in that...

they are totally incapable of connecting themselves and their situation to the positions they support. It really is quite amazing!

[Enthusiast]

58. They are young and healthy

They do not know what it is to be sick or have a sick family member without insurance.

[Spazito]

63. Well, in this case, the person making the "survival of the fittest" was currently...

dependent on another's compassion, ie letting him live in his basement while claiming people like him should NOT receive help. A total disconnect which, I repeat, is quite astounding to see/hear not just from this person but many who hold the "survival of the fittest" view.

Edited to add: On your larger point, I agree, it is often those who are either wealthy enough and/or healthy enough at the current time who tend to make these extreme statements.

[Enthusiast]

83. Understood nt

[omega minimo]

102. There's a word for that...... starts with an "H".......... rhymes with

hypocrite

[Spazito]

103. LOL, there's that too!

I do love succinctness even if I don't practice it as often as I should, lol.

[omega minimo]

106. The OP could bill him for future repayment. With interest. Might get the point across.

:think:

[Spazito]

107. I suspect not...sadly...

The inability to connect the dots seems strong in that one, lol.

[guitar man]

2. I would have put him out bag and baggage

And told him that he had a very good point, why should you support someone who doesn't have the gumption to take care of himself? Then maybe let him back in after giving him a while to contemplate the irony in his line of thinking. Sounds like a teachable moment to me. ;)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. How is he talking now that he's sober?

If he has the same attitude, you may wish to shock him and tell him you are going to kick him out, because he isn't "fit". Edited to add-then let him stay, of course, once he realizes how incredibly stupid his statements were.

[TheCoxwain]

110. I guess he holds the same view .... but is sane enough not to broadcast his views

[rurallib]

4. yeah - have heard some things very similar over the last few years

"if you don't have health care, get a job that has it as a benefit."
"If people don't have the money for insurance maybe they should die"
I could go on.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Sounds like you need to teach him about Karma

What goes around comes around.

[sinkingfeeling]

6. I would have asked him why you should pay for someone else's shelter. If someone cannot pay for

their own, why should you provide it? Then I'd have told him he was looking a little sickly and made up something that would get him to think he was dying of cancer.

[dysfunctional press]

105. tell him that the radon test results for the basement came back- and that he might want to see a dr.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[IdaBriggs]

7. Your friend is an idiot. If being homeless and unemployed isn't

enough to teach him compassion, I am afraid he is right -- our species is better off without him.

Suggest he move into a nice box in your garage, but get him OUT of your house!

:mad:

[BlooInBloo]

8. (shrug) Kids like to be dicks. Possibly he'll grow out of it. Likely not.

[Confusious]

9. Your friend is an ass and an idiot

Does he think he has some special dispensation from god, that when everyone else around him is sick, he's not going to get it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox

The end of the article lists monarchs and famous people that had smallpox. They were high and mighty, and disease got them. Definitely higher and mightier then your friend. He's surrounded by the unwashed. If we get it, he gets it.

[Soylent Brice]

10. my question is this:

is he drawing unemployment right now?

if so, how would he feel if you told him you didn't feel like supporting his ass through unemployment, as well as giving him a place to crash.

[mitchum]

35. One has to have previously worked in order to draw unemployment

Something tells me that this little shit has never had the experience

[brooklynite]

11. Provide him with a bill for market-price residency

Why should you pay for someone else's homelessness?

[Warpy]

12. Time to demonstrate his philosophy in action

and show a little tough love by showing him that he's not one of the automatic winners.

Ask him to leave.

Oh, you can be around to help him later if he asks for it, if he realizes that he's not entitled to your help because he's a natural winner in the Social Darwinist game of life.

After all, why should you pay to house someone else when he's too weak/inferior to pay for his own housing? Aren't you enabling his inferiority?

Sometimes the best way to teach these people is the practical lesson.

He might find somebody else to sponge off. If he doesn't, he has a chance to grow up.

[Richard Steele]

76. Exactly so. nm

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. A flaw in his "Darwinian" argument. Sometimes the "weak" overcome the "strong".

What is "weaker" than a single germ or bacteria? And, they don't give a rip about whose "weak" or "strong".

[Maru Kitteh]

14. Set his Darwin ass and his stuff out of doors

It's for the greater good of the species.

[MercutioATC]

15. I understand his argument...and he's got a logical point.

We, as a society, have pretty much eliminated most "survival of the fittest" influences. We feed the hungry, we treat the infirm, we support the elderly...and we do so (the majority of the time) in direct opposition to factors that would support a stronger species.

I don't know that I'm prepared to start drowning Down Syndrome babies just yet, but your friend has a decent logical argument.

[supernova]

17. Except that it's an unethical one

[MercutioATC]

22. "Ethics" are societal...and not logical. ...and I'm not sure this is even "unethical".

Symbiotes have existed for hundreds of millions of years.

Logically speaking, the OP is having his desire to perform what he feels is a "good deed" fulfilled. His friend, as a symbiot, is receiving shelter in return for fulfilling that desire.

Even if this specific situation in their relationship is parasitic, successful parasites have also existed for hundreds of millions of years.

[TheCoxwain]

29. Ethics are common rules that species have for themselves ... Am sure there are rules like that even

in other species ..

An Ant colony does not devour itself ... or resort to cannibalism .... ( I am not presenting this is a fact but as a logical device)

if you can demonstrate that this is a rule that helps the Ant colony survive -then you essentially demonstrate that what might be a self sacrificing behavior by one of the actors ( a hungry ant not eating up another baby ant ) can lead to positive emergent charactestics of that behavior ... and is indeed 'Logical'- whatever 'logical' means to you.

[MercutioATC]

43. The issue with your argument is that ants ARE cannibalistic.

I know that you presented it as a logical device, but it's just not true...and, not being true, it sort of refutes your contention.

Ants DO work together (sometimes to the point of an individual's demise) to accomplish mutually beneficial goals...but they eat the dead and weak...and occasionally the unborn (eggs) if necessary. There are certainly no ant programs to provide for individuals unable to make an active contribution to the colony.

[TheCoxwain]

49. Cannibalism is besides the point .... (plus there are question on whether it is a governing rule) ..

My main point is that individual behaviors that are not serving CAN ( I am not saying 'will' ) lead to positive outcomes for the group as a whole.


This is a known fact .... Are you disputing this?


I do not know how this plays into the health care debate .. but it can cut both ways - not just in one direction. Do you agree?

[MercutioATC]

50. I agree with that statement.

Actions by individuals in a society that are not in their individual best interest can benefit that society...and there is no shortage of examples of this (ants or otherwise).

I don't believe that creates any logical rationale for programs that provide for individuals that don't contribute to society, however.

(and understand that this is stated as a principle, not necessarily as a condemnation of U.S. social programs)

[TheCoxwain]

53. let's break that down ...

....I don't believe that creates any logical rationale for programs that provide for individuals that don't contribute to society ...



individuals that don't contribute to society consists of

.... individuals who can but don't contribute to society ...
AND ..individuals who cannot contribute to society...


( I am sure there a more dichotomies .... but let us keep it to this)


how do you feel about the subgroups ? How do you distinguish between them?

[MercutioATC]

55. I'd alter your subgroups slightly.

1) I would define "those who cannot contribute to society" as those with the actual inability to contribute.

2) I would define "those who choose not to contribute to society" as those with the actual ability to contribute that choose not to.


If I see where you're going with this, I would argue that "desire to contribute" and/or "contributing, but in a manner that doesn't result in a net gain for the society" would both qualify as sub-subgroups of one or both of the subgroups above.

[bobbolink]

59. But, you see,, you are arguing that altruism and compassion are "good things".

We've come to the point in this rotten society where that is no longer held as a value.

Hence, the vilification of "empathy".

We're grossly sick fuckers.

We probably all deserve to die and make room for healther societies.

But for now, just kick him out. That's a good start toward cleaning up this dreadful society.

[TheCoxwain]

19. Maybe ( I doubt it though) .... but

his argument wouldnt reek of irony if he hadnt asked me & my wife for a place to stay ...



If I were a jerk - I would have thrown him out for not having compassion for his fellow humans..


As it is I am having to tolerate my wife's complaints about him already....

[MercutioATC]

25. Read my post above.

Technically, you ARE getting something out of the relationship.

I'm not suggesting that I don't understand why this would be frustrating for you, but I don't believe he's made any breaches of logic here.

[Solomon]

109. But that's also why, according to your logic, you can't

say there are any people who do NOT contribute to society. Everyone contributes no matter what they do. For example, criminals cause a significant industry of jobs and careers.

I lost a long time friend one night a couple of years ago or so, when she and her friend, started advocating nuking Iran and Iraq. It shocked the hell out of me, and it took me a moment to realize, that yes, yes, I am hearing what they are saying.

It literally made me sick to my stomach, and I got out and walked the hell out.

So what if caring for people slows down our progress. Who the hell are we racing against?

What the fuck is the big hurry? I would like to think that humans have reached a level of development, that gives us the capacity to care and progress at the same time.

[blondeatlast]

31. It's the irony, I agree. I've been insulin-dependent for my entire life and have heard

the "survival" argument from people who weren't aware of my situation more than once. I always let them have their say and then gently mention my situation--just to see the looks on their faces.

They are entitled to their opinions, of course, but somehow, they fail in supporting them when faced with what they would do with me; these are people I know well and see often.

[nashville_brook]

36. instead of "throwing him out," you should "provide him the opportunity to become a strong per

and better person." toss him a copy of Atlas Shrugged and show him the door.

[bobbolink]

62. That's not being a "jerk". Being a jerk is enabling him, against your wife's wishes.

It's just not right. You're probably turning your wife against ALL people who are going through a bad patch, and you could find LOTS of people having trouble surviving who would appreciate you, and later pay it forward.

You're not allowing that to happen.

You're in danger of making both yourself and your wife into cynics who will refuse to help others in the future: others who are VERY different people.

[nashville_brook]

34. actually, we DON'T feed the hungry and we don't "treat the infirm"

and beyond that, Darwinism works on the levels of societies -- not individuals. so, you'd need to look at the overall health of cultures that compete vs cultures that cooperate.

gee, i wonder which is healthier.

[MercutioATC]

48. Completely? No. But we do have programs that divert resources to do just that.

Again, I'm not taking an ethical stand...but it's a valid logical argument.

Diverting resources to those unable or unwilling to contribute to society has a net detrimental effect of the physical security of that society.

[bobbolink]

64. Then for gawd's sake, give us access to a painless exit!

[MercutioATC]

66. I'm all for that!

The decision when and how to die should rest with the individual (with the condition that it doesn't endanger/harm others' life or property).

[bobbolink]

68. Don't just be " all for that". WORK for it. Let us get out of your way!

Some of us WANT to get out of the way of people like you, so WORK for it!

[MercutioATC]

69. Frankly, it's not an issue for me.

If I ever want to avail myself of that "right", I'll avail myself of it...it's not like there will be any real consequences.

[bobbolink]

72. Ah, so it IS all about YOU. No responsibility for your beliefs.

Libertarianism is just so.... quaint.

[MercutioATC]

77. I've explained why you're being silly below.

Feel free to pick a branch here...I don't see the benefit to both of us typing everything twice.

[omega minimo]

104. "Libertarianism is just so.... quaint."

:rofl:

Thom Hartmann: "Libertarians are Republicans who want to smoke pot."

[hunter]

How about drowning social darwinists? Is that okay?

Although castration might be adequate...

Survival of the fittest? Hah, hah. You lose. Now get the hell out of my house.

Anyways, it is quite obvious that feeding the hungry, treating the infirm, supporting the elderly, etc., are among the behaviors that have made our species so successful. These evolved behaviors are most certainly NOT "in direct opposition to factors that would support a stronger species."

[MercutioATC]

42. I'd argue that our social programs are often in direct conflict with a Darwinistic approach.

Speaking, for the moment, strictly of American society...we are fat, lazy and pampered. We haven't been encouraged to assume personal responsibility for our actions or to think for ourselves...and we're just fine with that.

This is societal. It's something that those in power reinforce, but it's also something that WE sustain through our willful ignorance and apathy.

From a strict risk-assessment standpoint, I think it's logical to conclude that this presents a definitive risk to our species...or, at least, homo sapiens residing in this country.

[Spike89]

54. misunderstood darwinism

Perhaps because examples are from the animal kingdom, people (and intellect) are excluded? The reality is that as a species humans most striking evolutionary adaptation is our reasoning. "Survival of the strongest" is not accurate--survival of the fittest is a bit closer, but really the credo of Darwinism is much more "survival of the most adaptable". In fact, often the survival trait that works doesn't make the survivor stronger--often it makes a creature smaller, or capable of living with less.

It makes logical sense to limit sickness in society from a personal standpoint it lowers your likelihood of contracting disease. Using logic is using your brain (the human Darwinian tool). People that can't see the connection between public services and their own well being and benefit may find themselves living in someone's basement.

The argument your friend makes is flawed and based on a freeperish misunderstanding of what evolutionary theory means to a species and individuals within that group.

[bobbolink]

57. Then you ought to be actively working for the right to end one's life.

Its the only logical conclusion.

[MercutioATC]

60. Oh, I already believe that should be a right...at any age with no conditions.

...but that's a separate (though distantly-related) issue.

[bobbolink]

67. No, it's not separate at all. And I didn't say "believe in it"...I said actively WORK for it!

Put energy where your uncompassionate mouth is!

[MercutioATC]

70. As I posted above, the restriction on suicide isn't an issue for me.

Yes, I believe it should be a recognized right, but the lack of that won't actually stop anybody from committing suicide.

[bobbolink]

71. For the fourth time, don't just be "for" it. Work for it.

Be RESPONSIBLE for what you believe.

[MercutioATC]

75. Do you have any idea how silly you're acting?

I state that there's logic in somebody else's argument that some social programs work against "survival of the fittest" and you respond with a demand that I actively campaign for legalization of suicide.

...even after I state that I'm only speaking in a strictly logical sense and that the issue of suicide legalization isn't a priority for me.


That's silly.

[bobbolink]

78. Do you have any idea that you're breaking the rules with a personal attack?

Take your name-calling libertarianism where it would be more appreciated.

[MercutioATC]

80. I'm well within the rules in telling you that you're ACTING silly.

...especially when you ARE acting silly.

[bobbolink]

81. Then I'm within the rules by saying I'd much rather ACT silly than ACT heartless and cruel.

[MercutioATC]

84. Yes, you are.

...and that might describe the situation had I espoused a personal commitment to what I presented as a logical argument.

...when, in fact, I stated the opposite.

[bobbolink]

85. What you have said is fallacious, malicious and hurtful.

But, I don't expect libertarians to give much of a rip of how they affect those around them.

[MercutioATC]

86. M'kay.

Opposition noted.


But you've declined to point out any logical discrepancy in my argument...

[bobbolink]

88. I have, indeedy, but it doesn't fit your preconceived notions, so you've ignored it,

[MercutioATC]

89. Being "heartless" isn't patently illogical.

Again, you may not personally believe that we should cut off aid to those who don't contribute to society because it "weakens the herd", but I haven't seen you logically refute that argument (which, by the way, wasn't even my argument).

[bobbolink]

90. I did, but again, you won't recognize it because it doesn't fit with your small program.

[bobbolink]

91. Others have refuted it too, and you ignore it.

In typical libertarian fashion.

Hard-heartedness is like that.

Blind.

[MercutioATC]

92. If you'll direct me to the post in which you refuted it, I'll be happy to review it.

[bobbolink]

93. The stong and superior can find it on their own.

[MercutioATC]

94. Ok, it's obvious where this is headed.

I reread all of your posts in this thread and can't find any that refute anything.

If you'd like to discuss the issue, I'd be happy to. If not, I don't see the point in wasting time with random back-and-forth posts.

[bobbolink]

96. Just work for your beliefs, and let us all have the painless option of getting out of your superior

way.

We don't like being around you any more than you want us to be around.

[omega minimo]

108. arguments

in that nonsense style usually sound "fallacious, malicicous and hurtful" -- because they are. They are exercises of intellect distanced from reality.

[peace13]

16. If he found a lump on his nut sack tomorrow...

he would think differently. Some people have no empathy. I doubt that you will be able to educate him. Life will do that.

[salguine]

18. Tell him "I'm Charles Darwin, bitch!" and kick his ass out. See if it changes his thinking.

[hfojvt]

20. it's one thing to help a friend with a place to stay

It would be another if you were FORCED to house a complete stranger while they looked for a job.

But this has been posted on DU a number of times in the past week. A cartoon where a well dressed guy says to another on a park bench that 'basically I would rather that you died than I pay higher taxes'.

And Darwin was picked up by rich people as a justification for selfishness almost as soon as it came off the presses.

[madmom]

21. Promote natural selection, remove all warning labels.

[mzteris]

23. maybe you should make him homeless for a while

to teach him a little humility and empathy.

After all, it's not YOUR fault he's jobless and homeless. Why should you do anything for him?

:sarcasm:

Though he probably doesn't get the irony, does he?

[katandmoon]

24. Too bad all those weak species didn't have the money to buy their way out of it

[Cleita]

26. Libertarians invented the social Darwinism argument, but they really

have no understanding of how true survival of the species really operates. They just ran with what they learned in high school, which is only a small part of it.
It's apples and oranges anyway. Darwin was talking about biological evolution and species can adapt even in one generation to changing circumstances by changing their DNA to pass the advantage on to their off spring.

However, social evolution among humans has always been humanity adapting to changing circumstances, which is why we became so successful a species from almost dying out in prehistory. The fact that socialized medicine or payment of medicine is developing throughout the world within my generation indicates that social changes are requiring us to adapt how we do things because of need. Again, it's how our species will survive. Your friend needs to adapt his thinking or go the way of the dinosaur and good riddance as far as I'm concerned because his way will lead to the species diminishing or dying out because of plague and other pandemics we haven't seen yet in our industrial, technological society. Getting health care to everyone will control these plagues. Every man for himself will have the opposite result.

[TheCoxwain]

30. My point exactly in post #29

thanks for expressing my thought

[Taitertots]

27. Wow

Nothing is worse.

The drunk, homeless, unemployed guy telling you about how people who can't take care of themselves should die.

[blondeatlast]

28. Ah, but I do believe it. My sister's ex-beau had a family who railed on and on about welfare "cheats

while he himself spent twice as much time thinking about how to avoid honest work than it would take to find it and mom and the siblings were cheating Social Security--all three of them.

My sister was never very wise about her beaus.

[mitchum]

32. Kick out his FREELOADING ass

He's a fucking parasite...right?

[Swede]

33. Tell him to move to Somalia where there are no taxes.

He'll be in heaven.

[mitchum]

37. He's also exceedinly ignorant; that is Spengler, not Darwin

Maybe his ignorance, along with his assholishness, is why no one will hire him? If he actually is looking for a job...

[elehhhhna]

38. he comes from lack, and will never have anything because of it

sincerely,

zenmaster elena

[Odin2005]

39. Kick that sociopathic slime-bucket out of your basement. See how he likes it.

Wow, I really don't understand how any human being could believe that vile crap.

[baldguy]

40. The weak and the unfit should perish for the greater good of the species.

Have him explain that to her.

[trixie]

41. Check out this link

From BaptistBoard.com

Lower income to poverty southern whites board:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=60493

Now leave those poor millionaires alone!

[tularetom]

44. Let me get this straight - this guy, the poster boy for the "weak and unfit"

believes that the weak and unfit should perish for the greater good of the species?

Sounds like a plan to me. Hope you get him out of your basement before he starts to stink.

[Joanne98]

45. Throw him out on the streets and let him fight the other species.

[Delphinus]

46. Yes, I will believe it.

I had a similar conversation not too long ago with someone about this.

Currently, survival of the fittest when it comes to health care means if you are wealthy and can afford the insurance (and attendant bills like co-pays, etc.); have employer-sponsored health care (and the means to pay into it often); poor and on Medicaid; old and on Medicare. The rest of us can go taking a flying leap.

[JerseygirlCT]

47. Out he goes

Why should you care if he doesn't have a place to live?

:sarcasm:

I'd say no more alcohol for that deep thinker. Maybe invest the money in empathy lessons, instead.

[sam sarrha]

52. let him live out his attitude, a good life experience in ROCK BOTTOM REALITY.. does he drink.??

[sam sarrha]

51. i hear that from all the Rethuglicans at work.. it's theie new talking point on health care

[bobbolink]

56. Let him suffer the consequences of his own beliefs.

Yes, it's harsh.

But it's the only way that lunatics like this will wake and smell the coffee.

You are enabling him.

Tell him, "Adios". And wish him well with that Darwinian thing.

[PurityOfEssence]

61. Be mean: tell him his lack of understanding for how society HAS to work is why he doesn't fit in

Seriously: we benefit SO MUCH by the actions of others, and the cost of personal failure is so great in so many ways, that it is to all of our rather immediate benefits that people are helped through the rough spots of life. If he doesn't understand this, it might explain why he's sidelined in the game of life, scamming a couch from a friend, yet still having odd hours to get ripped and sneer at the dross who weigh him down...

[Hugabear]

65. Kick his ass out on the streets NOW

Since he seems to love this "survival of the fittest" notion, let him fend for himself.

[rvablue]

73. I'll tell you what you can say: Go home tonight and tell him, "If someone doesn't have a job

and can't pay the rent, why should I pay for it?"

Wait for his reaction.

And then laugh, and tell him that you understand he only needs a little help, you're able to give it, and you're happy to! :)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. That's The Law Of The Jungle

It reminds me of Thomas Hobbees' where life is nasty, brutish, and short ...

[nini]

79. kick his ass out - let Darwin work for him

and let him learn his theories apply to HIM too

[stuntcat]

82. EVERYone's health is a matter of PUBLIC safety and the most basic National SECURITY

in my humble opinion I mean :shrug:

People who don't realize this need to be painlessly peacefully eliminated for the good of the whole :)

[Jennicut]

87. Kick him out and tell him to see if he is strong enough to survive his own theory.

[CakeGrrl]

95. If you're writing off his attitude to temporary drunkenness,

it sounds like you just want to vent to sympathetic ears and aren't looking to change the arragement. Personally, if he caused my spouse a moment's discontent/upset, he'd be outta there.

[pinniped]

97. Does he live in Sparta?

?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

98. I lost a very, very, close friend with whom I became embroiled in EXACTLY the same argument

Strangely enough, someone who lived rather precariously on commission income and had severe health problems who said almost word for word what your friend said.

I said, " If you needed health care and were unable to pay for it for whatever reason, I would be happy to contribute towards it. Wouldn't you do the same for me?"

He said "No." He didn't expect me to pay for his needs and he didn't expect to pay for mine.

When you hear the word "empathy" being thrown around a lot, there is a reason for that. People who see the big picture and believe in programs that lead to an overall societal "good" have empathy. The rugged, loner, "die you weakling!" Republicans and Libertarians do not possess this gene. I bet their personal, business and family relationships reflect this.

I never spoke to my friend again. He just wasn't the same person to me. I would say, show your friend the door and say, "happy job-hunting!

[pipi_k]

99. Wow...how much more weak and unfit can someone be

when he's got to sponge off a friend because he doesn't have a job and can't afford his own apartment...

For a freaking MONTH!!!

As Judge Judy always likes to say, get out there and collect CANS, for crissakes!


They just never really "get" the irony, do they?

:eyes:

[Fumesucker]

100. Whatever you do, don't kick him out..

NOW!

Wait until the middle of winter, right after the first real cold snap hits.

It pays to optimize the teaching environment when educating morons.

[KakistocracyHater]

101. trouble is, the power-hungry are the strongest & the Left isn't a team

doesn't play as a team & seems to prefer it. So WE are weaker & unfit because those in power are obviously NOT public servants, & now it is 'normal' for governors & other Righties to do whatever they want & yet they somehow keep their jobs. A Lefty does the same=no job.

[BolivarianHero]

111. Darwinism can be interpreted collectively as well individually...

If were are apathetic to the Einsteins slaving away in sweatshops, we will never realise either our individual or our collective potential.

The same applies to the poor among us who are in need of health care.

[BolivarianHero]

112. Darwinism can be interpreted collectively as well individually...

If were are apathetic to the Einsteins slaving away in sweatshops, we will never realise either our individual or our collective potential.

The same applies to the poor among us who are in need of health care.