ATF links gun shows to drug weapons

[Lone_Star_Dem]

WASHINGTON — Less than half of an estimated 18,000 American firearms used in Mexico's drug wars over the last three years have been traced back to licensed gun dealers — suggesting most are stolen or bought at gun shows where background checks are not required, a federal law enforcement official told Congress on Thursday.

The finding suggests that despite a national crusade to track weapons smuggled into Mexico, the task will be daunting, making it extremely difficult to definitively track and disrupt the illicit firearms trafficking at the heart of cartel violence.

Bill McMahon, deputy assistant director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said Mexican authorities say they have seized an estimated 100,000 firearms from gangland-style drug cartels and have submitted 20,000 to ATF to trace their origins. Ninety percent of the 20,000 — or 18,000 — were manufactured, imported or sold in the United States, McMahon said.

And only 44 percent, 7,900 of those weapons were traced back to retail transactions at federally licensed gun dealers in the United States, McMahon told members of the House Committee on Homeland Security.

http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/local/51020746.html

This is news to me. I guess I always assumed if a person purchased a gun at a gun show they still had to fill out paperwork, show ID and be subjected to a background check. If the ATF are unable to trace the ownership of guns purchased at gun shows, it would appear that's not the case. Either that or sellers are not following the rules.

[baldguy]

1. This story has been floating around for a while now, always dismissed by gun worshipers.

And the source is attacked by the NRA/GOP.

[slackmaster]

5. See my reply #3 for a completely truthful, useful reply by a federally licensed gun collector

:hi:

[joeybee12]

2. No, gun shows have always been exempt...and when the Dems had spines

or semi-spines, they often tried to get this loophole closed...but of course it's all about freedome, if we can't let criminals get their guns from unregulated gun shows, then America will explode!

[slackmaster]

4. That's bullshit - If a sale requires a background check in a gun store, it does at a gun show too

There is no "exemption" in the law for gun show transactions.

States can regulate private sales of used guns. Sales of new and used guns by gun DEALERS are regulated by federal law regardless of where they take place.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Didn't the VA Tech shooter buy his guns at a gun show?

And the Columbine shooters too.

[Palin delenda est]

20. Cho bought his guns at a licensed dealer. He had been diagnosed with mental

problems but the state failed to report this to the national database. The safeguards were in place but the state dropped the ball.

Don't recall about the columbine kids.

[slackmaster]

21. Here's a link to the United States Code, indexed and annotated courtesy of Cornell University

Please find the part that exempts gun shows from federal gun control laws.

You might start by looking for a definition of "gun show".

I won't hold my breath waiting for a meaningful reply.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. You are replying to the wrong post

:crazy:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. No they are not. Check your state laws. Some ban all private transaction too

[slackmaster]

3. Federal gun laws apply to sales by gun dealers, who have to be federally licensed

The sale of used firearms by private individuals cannot be regulated by the federal government. It has no authority to do that. Therefore those transactions are subject to regulation by the states.

Private sales of used firearms are regulated in California and many other states, but not all of them. But if you buy any firearm from a dealer at a gun show in any state, you will do the paperwork.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

9. I'm pretty ignorant on how this works

Do you have to be a formal dealer to sell at a gun show, or can anyone sell there? If it's anyone, do they do something like keep a list of serial numbers of all the guns brought in to be sold by vendors?

[slackmaster]

10. That depends on state law - California does not allow private sales at gun shows

Even though private sales are regulated by the state.

All sales by federal licensees are tracked by the seller. As a federally licensed collector, I would have to do the same paperwork as a dealer if I sell a firearm. But I cannot sell firearms at gun shows in California.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

15. I get how it works now. It's a state issue which varies by state

I looked up Texas and they don't require background checks by individual sellers at gun shows. So, that part of my question is answered. I haven't had much luck finding out if they require a seller to provide serial numbers on guns brought in by individuals though.

The reason I was wondering this is it seemed to me like a pretty decent way to track if gun show sale guns are ending up in the wrong hands. Then I stopped and thought about it a bit more and realized if a bad person wanted to, I imagine they could just remove the serial number. So I guess it's irrelevant.

Thanks for explaining how it works to me.

[Wickerman]

17. I'm sure someone will jump on this that has more knowledge

but it's pretty freakin' hard to remove a serial number in an effective way. They still show through pretty well even after a lot of gringing and scratching. That and a gun that has a tampered with serial number gets you in one hell of a lot of hot water.

[slackmaster]

22. Texas doesn't require background checks by private sellers ANYWHERE

The gun show has nothing to do with it.

I haven't had much luck finding out if they require a seller to provide serial numbers on guns brought in by individuals though.

Gun dealers have to track all sales. Private individuals do not, except as required by state laws. Private sales are completely unregulated in Texas.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

27. Right, I should have made that distinction

I was looking into gun show sales which was why I worded it the way I did. However, an individual could list them in a newspaper or any other venue and they're still not required to file paperwork when/if they sold in Texas. Which it would appear is a very important distinction.

Like I said, I get that it's a state issue now. I didn't realize that at first, but after you made the point I looked it up and now I do. Also, my reasons for asking about the serial numbers was originally a way I thought they could possibly verify if there even was an issue to be dealt with among private sellers at guns shows. Which I then realized on second thought was perhaps not a very good method.

I read where all sales made by dealers are monitored, and should no doubt have said 'private sellers' rather than a generic 'sellers'. That was an error on my part, but in context to what I was asking and what you had already answered, it just came out that way.

Full disclaimer: I am not and was not poking at gun shows. I just was ignorant to some of the laws and dynamics involved in how guns are exchanged in specific states. What stood out to me was the part of the article which said the ATF was, "unable to trace the ownership of weapons purchased at gun shows." Which wouldn't have if I'd already known individual 'private' sellers didn't have to fill out paperwork. Actually, my ignorance was even greater than that. I had thought it was only official dealers who sold at gun shows in any state.

[X_Digger]

29. Another problems is that many older guns..

.. have no serial number. They weren't _required_ until 1968, but most from the 40's on do have them. The gun used by the Holocaust museum shooter didn't have a serial number, if I recall correctly.

[TheWraith]

14. If you're selling guns as a business, anywhere, you need to be licensed.

If the ATF decides you're an unlicensed dealer, then that's worth 10 years in Club Fed. There's some wiggle room for collectors and people who are not dealers to sell some of their weapons without a license--that includes at gun shows. Obviously, some people abuse that, but it's not nearly as easy (or as legal) as one might think. Also the licensed dealers do NOT like that, since it undercuts them.

[Old Codger]

6. Not absolutely sure

But I think the only ones required to run background checks are licensed dealers not private sellers.... some states, like California, do not allow private sales, they require a private sale to go through a dealer.

[slackmaster]

8. Old Codger has it right

:toast:

[michreject]

7. That's less than 3,000 a year

I guess the article wouldn't have much Chicken Little affect if the headlines read "Less than 3,000 gun a year that arm Mexican gangs come from the US".

[Statistical]

11. "STOLEN or purchased at a gunshow"

Wow.

New weapons sold by FFL Always require a background check.

So if a weapon is sold by a private individual to a criminal at a gunshow the trace would lead back to the seller.

So of the guns that are either STOLEN or purchased at a gunshow I would imagine virtually all are stolen.

[slackmaster]

12. Stolen, OR purchased at a gun show, OR imported from Central or South America

Looking into the details I have no doubt that many of the weapons would turn out to be ones regulated under the National Firearms Act, and therefore could not possibly have come from a US gun show.

The devil is always in the details on this recurring propaganda piece. Certain members of Congress are looking for any excuse to stomp on the civil rights of Americans.

[FreakinDJ]

19. You are correct - they are STOLEN

[slackmaster]

23. Often from the Mexican army or Mexican police

They may have been manufactued in the USA, but they were never in the US civilian firearms market, and never at a US gun show.

[TheWraith]

13. They ARE still required to fill out paperwork and a background check.

Federally licensed dealers are required to do background checks no matter where they're selling a weapon. Individuals who are not dealers are NOT required to do so, whether they're at a gun show or standing in a parking lot somewhere.

In any event, the ATF is conveniently leaving out two important details. One is that the Mexican government is only submitting to us for tracing the guns which they're pretty certain were made in the US. So that amps up the percentages relative to what was made in the US. Second, they're deliberately overlooking the many tens of thousands of American-made military-grade weapons that we've sold to the Mexican police and army which have subsequently been lost or stolen. That's stuff that you can't buy at a gun show--short-barreled rifles, automatic weapons, grenades and launchers.

[FreakinDJ]

18. Most are STOLEN

Guns are the burglers "currency of choice" at the crack dealers

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. There is squishyness built into this, concerning the legalities -

1) Mexico has seized 100,000 weapons. Of that 100,000 they submitted 20,000 to the US for tracing. I suspect that means they suspect that 20,000 - by reason of manufacturer and such - to be of US origin. The other 80,000 would be the weapons coming from Central America and Eastern Europe and whatever. The 20,000 are PARTICULARLY suspect. 90% of that 20,000 DID come from the US. 44% of those US weapons came from legitimate dealers, possibly as straw purchases. 56% are of unknown origin.

2) "most are stolen or bought at gun shows where background checks are not required". This is different from saying "most are stolen or bought from gun shows, where background checks are not required". It actually specifies those gun shows which DO have background check loopholes - which not ALL gun shows have. Punctuation matters - just look at the 2nd amendment.

People here are arguing points that the article does not make - that Mexican gangs get most their guns from US sources (they don't - only 20% of them), and that they get them through gun shows because gun shows don't require background checks (many, if not most, do require them, but not all, and gun shows also provide a marketplace for illegal buys out of the trunk of a car).

And it only makes sense that if you are selling weapons to gangsters, you are not going to follow the rules.

[aikoaiko]

26. So out of 100K guns, we know that 12K might have been either stolen or private purchases at gunshows

That's not a compelling case that gunshows are the problem.

[slackmaster]

28. Ford still sells black cars, so it's Ford's fault that there are millions of black cars on the roads

Or something like that.

[anonymous171]

31. Oh god not this shit again. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. that is called the gun show loop

and folks want to close it, but hey, usual suspects are against that