Just a reminder about things like organic foods.

[Tim01]

I know I am preaching to the choir to some extent here. No offense intended. But reminders help me, so maybe they help others.
When you go to the store and buy stuff you are voting on how you want this country to be. If you buy cheap food instead of organic food the corporations will be more than happy to give you more of the same. You are telling them that you don't care as long as it is cheap. And they will find ways to get the govt. to cooperate with them producing more and more cheap food no matter what it takes. They will manipulate the EPA, the FDA, and all the other groups that are supposed to protect us. And it is simply because of what we buy.
Simply put, if we all went organic over night the corporations would change to meet demand. They would follow the money. And what we buy sets the stage for everything else.
If we don't care that much about what we feed our kids, we probably don't care that much about what we drink, breathe, or wear.
If we refused to buy any chicken but free range chicken, then all chicken farmers would become free range farmers or they would be out of business in short order.
There is a long list of this kind of stuff. A long list of choices we can make.And at the end of the day I think how we spend our money is far far more influential than who we vote for.
If we vote once every few years for one thing, and vote every day for something else, we will get politicians who will tell us one thing and do something else. They are playing our game.
We can vote everyday.
Thanks.

[itsrobert]

1. So how is your organic farm going?

Do you have a link to your web store?

[Tim01]

3. I raise enough beef and chicken for my family. That's it.

I shoot a few deer. And the occasional groundhog.I have a few tomatoes. I buy everything else.

[readmoreoften]

16. Good thing you don't live in Brooklyn or Oakland or Chicago...

And the whole "they have the choice to move out here" blather is a bald-faced lie. I seriously doubt country folks REALLY want urban America--half the population of the US--moving out to country willy-nilly.

[Tim01]

26. I lived in D.C. Descent food is available. But it does take effort.

I'm willing to give up 2 cans of soda so I can have better eggs for the whole week. Lots of people are not willing to put up with such a hardship. Chicken and rice is lots cheaper and better than McDonalds. But once again, effort.
Soaking beans instead of Taco Bell, effort. Taking a brown bag instead of going to the food court, effort.

[readmoreoften]

29. Effort is measured in time. What else do you do with your time? Do you politically organize?

Are you rushing to meetings to work with unions or war resisters? Trying to end the war? People who devote their free time to ending the Afpak war, ending depleted uranium shelling in the Middle East, empowering people in Iran, building more democratic and politicized unions, and so forth will have far more impact on the environment than your cooking a good chicken and rice meal for yourself or growing a window garden with fresh herbs.

You basically think you're better than other people because you cook your own meals instead of buying soda? Whoop-de-do, you try to take care of your health. Did your rice come from Indian farmers oppressed by Monsanto who forces them to use GMO seeds that need toxic pesticides to function? Most likely.

The problem is systemic and personal purity isn't the answer. Struggle and solidarity is the answer. And people in struggle aren't going to ruin their fragile coalitions by shaming people for bringing a soda to the meeting.

[truth2power]

100. Did Tim say he was better than anyone else? ....

I saw nothing at all wrong with his post. It was informative. Geez!!

So if someone said, oh, let's see, "I make my own cloth grocery bags," would you think that person deserved to be ridiculed?

I see this a lot on DU. Way too much free-floating crankiness. :(

[Gabi Hayes]

101. really...what a bunch of judgmental aholes, eh?

one person describing what he does, in his own small way, to try make some difference, and immediately he gets nailed by superior/sarcastic jagoffs

as for the Chicago area, btw, there's a CSA farm up near Rockford that delivers to much of the area. a great way to support organic eating

if you're in Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin, check out the site. you can still get the 12 week package:

http://www.angelicorganics.com/indexold.html

http://www.angelicorganics.com/share.php

[bertman]

121. "Way too much free-floating crankiness." Amen and Hallelujah, truth2power.

:thumbsup:

:rofl:

[conscious evolution]

40. Urban farms are growing everywhere

I live in downtown Atlanta.Behind my home is a 4 acre farm that feeds a LOT of people.
There are also many other urban farms springing up all over the inner city.
Then there is the CSA farming.Google that term sometime.

[readmoreoften]

46. Atlanta wasn't on that list. And the working class shouldn't have to be peasants too.

Atlanta and Austin--sure. But if you live in NYC or LA, you don't have space for your receipts let alone an organic garden. There are lovely charitable CSAs but that is not going to solve the damn food crisis. If you want to solve the food crisis, you have to organize against major corporations and take them down through labor struggle and political struggle, not boycotts that only the privileged classes can easily adhere to.

We fed our neighborhood through dumper-diving organic food. But that was a survival tactic, not a political act towards solving the problem.

[conscious evolution]

107. organize against major corporations

We are working on taking them down.
How? By not giving them our business.By starving the beasts,so to speak.They are for profit entities after all.If they start to loose enough money they will either change their ways or go out of business.
CSA's Charitible?Check again.Most are profit driven like any other business's.The difference being a means provide a way of by-passing the large corporations.
Its not the priviledges class doing this.They are still shopping in their normal way.The urban farm movement in many cities is being lead by poor and working people who have little other choice in the current economic depression.

[Cha]

58. Great! The Universialist Church in

town next door to our co-op has a big organic garden this year to provide for the food bank in town.

Ain't it great! Of course, all the usual organic farmers are getting bounty in the growing season in Middle New York.

[varelse]

2. Some of us don't have the $$ to make the choice

And, as pointed out on numerous occasions in the film "Food, Inc." that price structure, whereby unhealthy "food" is far cheaper than nutritious, fresh, whole food, is created by long standing government policy.

If we can convince our government to change the farm subsidy programs to effect affordable pricing for healthy food (fresh vegetables and fruits, grass-fed beef, etc) then we would open up options which do not currently exists for millions of poor and low income Americans to make better choices without being forced to skip meals.

(edited to add, I'm a member of an organic CSA and a long-time vegetarian who only buys organic food, so I don't disagree with you on a personal level at all)

[itsrobert]

5. Organics are a croc anyhow

The coroporations have taken them over and they just put a label on the package to say "Organic" Suckers buy it up.

[varelse]

19. Organically grown fruits and vegetables are yummy :)

Of course, I've learned to avoid the corporate versions. But again, that is only because I can afford to do so.

Nutritious whole foods, including fresh fruit, eggs, vegetables, beans, whole grains, and meat, should be made more affordable. Because there are an increasing number of studies showing links between pesticides (and herbicides) and degenerative diseases (including many cancers) I believe we should move away from heavy use of dangerous chemicals in farming. That is to say, even if we don't convert completely over to organic food production, we definitely should try to at least limit the use of poisons on or near our food sources.

However, these changes can not be done only by consumers "voting with their dollars" - political activism is necessary.

[hippywife]

20. That's not true of all organics if you know what you're doing.

Sure, if you're stupid enough to believe that the major labels are putting out truly organic food it's a "croc."

But buying local from producers through coops and CSA's and using the tools available to make sure that you know who you can trust you can indeed get clean, safe, natural and organic foods.

http://www.msu.edu/~howardp/organicindustry.html

http://www.betterworldshopper.com/

Edited to add: http://www.foodnews.org/

[readmoreoften]

34. My neighborhood earns earn $9K per capita and work 70 hours a day. Explain

how or why I should tell them to buy organic. Especially if I'm not also organizing for their labor rights. :shrug:

[hippywife]

38. I'm not but...

what I'm saying and what the OP is saying is that if people who can afford to do so buy healthier food, then the system changes. Right now everyone's tax dollars subsidize CorpAg so it looks like you are paying less at the grocery. If people who can afford it do and work for change then it will become the standard and not a luxury for anyone.

No one is saying that only those of means deserve good healthy safe food. We are certainly not people of means by any measurement but we do without tons of other things to be able to eat that way because it's important...it's the body's fuel and medicine.

[Liquorice]

59. It's illegal to use the "organic" label if the product doesn't meet the

requirements for it.

[hippywife]

62. Unfortunately, corporate ag

populates and owns the USDA for the most part and have been able to get the standards watered down. That's the reason that so many brand labels were able to come out with "organic" lines of processed foods in so short a time.

That's why people are encouraged to buy their natural and organic products locally where the small local producers are happy to be accountable to their customers.

Edited for spelling.

[Liquorice]

68. What a shame! I buy locally when I can. nt

[NNN0LHI]

110. Do you have a link to the laws and penalties concerning using the "organic" label?

I searched Google and could only find some regulations in California and maybe one other state but that was about it.

You sound informed on this subject and I was curious about what laws and penalties concerning using the "organic" label you are aware of.

Thanks in advance.

Don

[csziggy]

63. That is why I am getting veggies from a local CSA organic farmer

Or from the locally cooperatively owned grocery store that buys locally produced organic vegetables and meats, rather than buy the "organic" stuff at the big chain stores.

I'm trading horse manure for veggies from a CSA (community supported agriculture) organic farmer - she comes here and picks up the manure, I go to her farm and pick up the veggies. So I know that her stuff is organic and see how it is developing in the fields.

The locally owned store started out as a small bulk food cooperative and now is a good sized store that has moved as much as possible to buying locally grown foods - vegetables, meats, honey and dairy products. The brands that they carry are as much as they can verify, responsibly grown and packaged, true organic products. Yeah, they tend to be more expensive, but coop members get discounts and the food is much better tasting!

[Gabi Hayes]

102. listen, wise guy, do you know ANYthing about CSA?

enjoy being a dick, much?

[lildreamer316]

109. +100 n/t

[Oregone]

4. It isn't like most of the organic food isn't corporate owned. You just help em profit more

"If you buy cheap food instead of organic food the corporations will be more than happy to give you more of the same."

Buy local. "Organic" is more of the same, just more expensive

[itsrobert]

7. Yup, "organic" at the stores is just marketing

and an easy scam for the gullible.

I had a conversation with a veterinarian who swore that organics was the way to go. Lo and behold, the vet got a bigger kickback for selling the pet owners the higher price stuff.

[readmoreoften]

13. Yep. Mostly owned by massive food processors.

Most organics are a gimmick-- and who the hell has the time or money to keep up on which company sold out and which didn't?

[KansDem]

10. Even "Tom's of Maine" is now owned by Colgate...

In 1968, Tom and Kate Chappell left Philadelphia, where Tom worked for an insurance company, and moved to rural Kennebunk, Maine. As part of their goal to simplify their lives, they sought out natural, unprocessed foods and, unadulterated products. Unable to find natural personal care options for themselves and their children, in 1970 Tom and Kate decided to create and sell their own. They began with a $5,000 loan from a friend and the philosophy that their products would not harm the environment.

From this small start, Tom's of Maine grew and developed into a different kind of company, one based on the belief that people and nature deserve respect. Over the years our product line moved from non-phosphate laundry detergent to natural personal care products such as the first natural toothpaste (1975) and deodorant (1976). We’ve grown in size and in 2006, we became part of the Colgate-Palmolive Company. But our simple, direct approach hasn't changed one bit: we listen to what our customers want (and don't want) in their products, we learn how it can be done, and we respond with effective natural(and sustainable) solutions.

Tom's of Maine

[Oregone]

14. I know. We don't use that tooth paste anymore so I don't care

[Tim01]

15. Sure local is better. But you have to give people a fighting chance.

Not everybody has the time or money or willpower to drive all over the place to get local tomatoes. And if you try to suggest that everybody should what will really happen is that everybody will just give up.

And I am not on a holy war against corporations. They are not going away. They will sell us what ever we will buy.

[Oregone]

24. Farmers Market's are almost everywhere

And produce is often cheaper than in the stores.

Aside from that, nothing wrong with growing a tomato plant (a single plant in a pot can dramatically reduce carbon emissions due to reduction of fertilizer/refrigderation/transportation/deforestation, etc).

Yes, nothing wrong with the stores (which sell more and more local produce these days), but its not impossible to be a more conscious (and thrifty) consumer. Sometimes its quite easy. There are about 6 Farmer's Markets within a tiny drive from where I live now (only 1 from when I lived in a rural area), and farms all over that you can get really cheap prices at if you go directly

[Kalun D]

17. Good Point

For instance, Odwalla sounds like good juice, but if you look at it closely it's ALL "flash pasteurized" IOW, it's quickly super heated which kills all the nutrients. It's much better to find local organic produce and juice it yourself.

To the broader point, they are intentionally poisoning Americans. Fluoride and Aspartame etc etc are sedatives and nuerotoxins, the weak are being culled out of the gene pool and everyone is being sedated and dumbed down so they don't notice they are being screwed on a daily basis.

HFCS causes diabetes etc etc, if you're constantly sick you won't be able to rise up and throw off the oppressors.

[harmonicon]

103. and what effects has your tinfoil hat caused?

Heaven forbid we use such things as pasteurization and fluoride. That wily Pasteur was always in the corporate pocket, trying to make people sick so they wouldn't be able to fight for their rights to drink juice riddled with disease causing bacteria. He was evil I tell ya, EVIL.

[Kalun D]

115. Nutrition 101

""Heaven forbid we use such things as pasteurization and fluoride.""

there's no tinfoil here, this is long established basic nutrition

Americans are so ignorant of basic nutrition, it's probably why our cancer rates are so high.

things like heating over 108F and pasteurization kills raw food, ruining up to 90% of it's nutrients

that's why meat is "bad" for you, it's not the meat, our digestion is designed to be omnivorous, it's the cooking of the meat which transforms it into stuff that's bad for you.

Pasteurization was necessary when sanitary conditions weren't as well understood. And what it does is trade a small minority of short term consequences for widespread longterm consequences. IOW a very few, low percentage poisonings, for a widespread general health decline.

and fluoride has long been known to be a sedative and neurotoxin, it's banned in a lot of the rest of the world, only in America with it's rampant corrupt corporations and for profit health care is fluoride still so widely used.

[harmonicon]

117. I'll keep my pasteurized juice and milk, thank you very much

If you want to gamble, be my guest, but don't suggest that gambling with one's health should be the way to go. As for fluoride, I would like to thank it for keeping me cavity-free until I was 29 years old. I know that fluoride isn't put into the water in many countries, but I'm pretty sure that it's in a lot of toothpaste.

[Kalun D]

119. The Cancer Train

""I'll keep my pasteurized juice and milk, thank you very much""

anything pasteurized is pretty much empty food. Pasteurized milk is in the detrimental food category.

Fluoride is actually bad for your teeth

""I know that fluoride isn't put into the water in many countries""

why do you think that is?

for corporate cultivated perceptions you're gambling with your long term health, it's called, Riding the Cancer Train.

and the "health care" corporations will be there to "help" you when you get to the last stop.

[harmonicon]

120. choo-choo - all aboard!!

Fine - I'm enjoying every minute of the ride. As for the "health care" corporations, I live in the UK and am going to do my damnedest to stay here when my current visa runs out, so they can kiss my soon-to-be-cancer-ridden ass.

[truedelphi]

104. I would vouch for Odwalla. They had the FDA out after them after

Allegedly, a toddler still in diapers died or was very sick after the parents fed him Odwalla juice. (I am not disputing the existence of the child or his plight - just don't know how it would be traced back to Odwalla.)


Odwalla had not pasteurized anything they produced up until then. They complied with all the regulations put forth and they really did their best to support the injured family and the huge number of Odwalla fans like myself who were not all that dissuaded by Corporate Media ganging up on them.

[Kalun D]

114. Botulism?

Yeah, it was apple juice and AFAIK it had botulism. And one in a million case will trump the overall health content of the juice non pasteurized compared to pasteurized. Trading short term effects on the few for long term effects on the many.

pasteurization kills food. It's no longer "raw" afterwards. It ruins an average of 90% of the nutrients and throws off it's natural balance.

their juice is not bad like so many products out there, it's just no longer as good as it was.

[truedelphi]

124. Agree with you there. Sadly we have become a society in which one in a million

Adverse effect requires that 999,999 have to experience a depletion in their life style.

I am often surprised I am still allowed to walk down the street without some type of cumbersome "body helmet" to protect me from the one in a million chance of getting hit by a meteor.

[mamaleah]

123. Do you remember what happened with Odwalla and the E Coli problem?

That's why it's flash pasteurized now. Lots of kids got sick, and one died, from the apple juice because the apples harvested had come into contact with deer droppings. They weren't just picking apples from trees, but also taking those that had fallen onto the ground. Flash pasteurization KILLS the E. Coli. If you'd rather take chances with yourself or kids, have at it.

[hippywife]

21. If you show the whole chart

then people will see that there are indeed trust-worthy labels available in the stores, too.

http://www.msu.edu/~howardp/organicindustry.html

[Kalun D]

116. Knowledge

""then people will see that there are indeed trust-worthy labels available in the stores, too.""

No doubt, but it also pays to read the ingredients carefully and know what you're reading.

[Lex]

6. Yes, I think of that when I spend my $$$ on most anything.

I seek out local businesses not ginormous corporate mega-stores.
In the months I can, I buy organic from our local farmers' market (open 2 days per week).

[itsrobert]

11. That's the way to go

Stay away from corporate 'organic' brands.

[XanaDUer]

8. I have the money to buy organic, so I do

I am very lucky to be able to do so, with so many struggling to make ends meet. I also try to buy local foods, too.

[hippywife]

45. And that is the point the OP is trying to make.

And I have tried to make here a few times. If those who can afford it do, then they are casting that vote that everyone should be able to have access to and afford safe, clean food.

[readmoreoften]

9. And shift the blame on the working class. To hell with consumer politics.

Let's face it: if we "vote" with our dollars than the rich have more of a vote than the poor, and there are more poor under capitalism than rich. The production of toxic, garbage food is a systemic problem not a "moral, vote-with-your-dollar" problem.

Do you think that most people want shitty, toxic, cheap food? Or maybe the problem is that most people work two jobs and can barely pay their bills--so slow, organic food and gardens are out of the question?

How about fighting FOR working people instead of scolding them.

[Oregone]

12. +1

[varelse]

22. Well said!

:thumbsup:

[readmoreoften]

27. What's worse is that this type of thinking leads to some really dark stuff.

How often have you heard statements like "Face it: The population is out of control. We need to cull the herd of mindless eaters and Walmart shoppers"? No one ever says we need to "cull the herd including upper-middle class consumers of organics who buy toxic computer products as readily as the next guy and own stock in a company that owns stock in a company that owns stock in Monsanto..."

Thinking that you're more "political" than your neighbor because you buy organics doesn't do much in the way of solidarity. I know hardcore working-class anti-war activists who have literally dedicated their lives to the cause of helping soldiers resist and stopping the war. But they eat at McDonalds on the way to their protests and secret meetings. Are they really less political than a intellectual property lawyer that shops at Whole Foods? I don't think so.

[varelse]

56. How often have you heard statements like

"Face it: The population is out of control. We need to cull the herd of mindless eaters and Walmart shoppers"?

Not often, which is fortunate, because such statements invoke profound disgust and despair in me. :(

That said, you don't need to shop at Whole Foods to buy healthier (or even organically grown) whole foods. I don't look down on people who eat at McDonalds or shop at WalMart, even though I would never do these things myself - but then, I've never set foot in a Whole Foods market either (too rich for my blood).

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. The point is, if people who can afford good organics make a point

of buying good organics, production of good organics will increase, bringing down the price. As the price comes down, it becomes more affordable to everybody.

When someone who can afford not to buys the cheap shit, it further incentivises the producers to produce more cheap shit. It IS a systemic problem - and if you can afford to you need to withhold your support for that system.

That's not too difficult.

[readmoreoften]

53. Yeah but it hasn't worked that way.

The wealthy buy organics for themselves, big agriculture puts out a crap version for the masses that isn't really organic at all.

You can tell yourself that you're part of the solution all you want, but you're really doing nothing but buying fine food for yourself and conspicuously consuming. If you care about the environment and food, organize with others and fight Monsanto and big Ag. Help organize politicized strikes. But most upper-middle class people don't want to do that because then they might have to touch a working class Walmart shopper.

There is no consumer solution to the problem of state-sanctioned industrial power.

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. The ONLY solution to the problem of state-sanctioned industrial power is

the consumer solution. What do you think organizing with others, fighting Monsanto and big Ag is, if not US, the consumers, standing up to them? If making deliberate purchasing choices to undercut their profitability is NOT a consumer solution, then what was the grape boycott all about? Millions of people started to avoid high fructose corn syrup, and Voila!, the food processers start putting out 'Made with Cane Sugar' foods.

And you DON'T need to be wealthy to buy local, buy cage free poultry and eggs, avoid highly processed food and fruits shipped from New Zealand and Argentina. I cracked $30k/yr, between two jobs, for the first time in my life last year, and I'm only a decade away from retirement - I'm HARDLY wealthy.

The consumers CAN make decisions if they are aware of their choices - and if they are buying crap, as I still often must do, at least they can be AWARE they are buying crap. And when they can, they can make the CHOICE to not buy crap.

What's your problem with that?

[readmoreoften]

88. Because its an individualist solution that privileges the ruling classes that are

causing the damn problem in the first place. Rich people have always had better food and handcrafted items and it hasn't changed a damn thing. The rich will continue to get rich off producing GMO crops and toxic toys for the world and high-quality organic products for themselves. Buying those high-quality products changes nothing and it doesn't make it any cheaper.

There is a WAY BETTER political solution than "consumer-end politics" which is lonely and isolating: "production-end politics" or mass strikes for political power which depends on all kinds of people getting along and working together to make change.

I can't make the choice to buy an organic computer. I can't afford an electric car or even a hybrid. I eat organic foods as a treat to myself when I can afford it.

[hippywife]

75. Again, you are projecting.

No one is scolding anyone. If you really read the OP he does say those who CAN should. That's all that anyone who supports this has ever said. No one looks down on people who can't afford it. We all do what we can where we can to the best of our own abilities. No one can do it all.

And people in the food movement are fighting for safe, clean food for EVERYONE. Period.

[readmoreoften]

97. Telling people they're failing to consume properly is absolutely scolding.

Maybe everyone in the food movement is fighting for safe, clean food for all but not everyone who posts online that people should "consume better" is part of the food movement.

[Lorien]

112. Well, the person you responded to is scolding

I'm unemployed and I still buy organic. No cable, no big screen TV, no eating out, no movie tickets, a beater car...but I still buy local and organic. Why? Because cheap toxic food makes my fibromyalgia go haywire while organic food does not. Easy choice for my priorities.

[BlooInBloo]

18. I'm certainly not going to "vote" for food that's 3x as expensive.

[hippywife]

23. The cost of the mainstream food in the grocery

isn't really cheaper. You're already paying that price through taxes for subsidies so the shelf can reflect a low price. If more people who can afford to bought truly natural and organic food, that system could be changed.

The price I pay is worth it because it's much more difficult and labor intensive to grow food without herbicides, pesticides, antibiotics, etc.

Until the system changes, I gladly pay more for food that I know I can trust and don't spend money on other things like new clothing, shoes, cars, makeup, music, movies, etc. all the time. The only shopping I do is for food.

[BlooInBloo]

25. Bourgeois criticism of people who can't afford a 3x increase in their food prices, noted.

[hippywife]

32. That was not bourgeois.

My husband and I combined make what most single people make a year. What I was trying to get across is that food is more important to us than all the things consumerism and marketing tell us we should want the lastest and greatest of. Food is the body's fuel and medicine. So that's where we spend what little extra we can.

And you totally disregarded the point about the fact that you are already subsidizing the substandard food sold in the grocery so you are paying higher food costs already.

The local natural and organic growers work hard to produce safe, clean food without the crutches of chemicals and drugs. They also do a service to the environment using sustainable practices. I don't mind paying them extra.

I'm not taking any attitude here, just pointing out the facts of the situation.

Edited to add: If all the people who can afford real organic food would do so, then it wouldn't be so costly and a luxury for anyone.

[BlooInBloo]

42. "you totally disregarded the point..." - Of course I did - you disregarded it yourself...

Twice. Why should I hold any "point" in high regard when you yourself repeatedly disregard it?

[hippywife]

44. How in the world did I

disregard my own points? :shrug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. Try figuring in the medical costs for those who each cheap crap

and see who is paying more.

I am willing to pay a premium for food that doesn't poison me.

[readmoreoften]

48. Glad you have a good job. Good for you.

My partner's father hasn't had a paycheck in 3 months and he's in his late fifties. You go tell him to shop at Whole Foods.

[RaleighNCDUer]

60. Don't give me that bullshit.

Look back in this thread - read each post I made. Did I ever say that everyone needs to go to Whole Foods? I don't, myself.

Everyone WHO CAN AFFORD IT should buy AS MUCH ORGANIC AS THEY CAN to encourage greater production of organics, thus bringing down the price.

The holier than thou crap is unbecoming to this discussion, and is, in fact, a strawman. I'm not too far removed from the 'eat cheap or eat nothing' point myself, and even now I buy cheap crap when I have to because I follow my own advice - I buy good organic WHEN I CAN AFFORD TO.

Only the Sith think in absolutes.

[Flaneur]

55. Ooh, we can talk about class now? That's usually forbidden.

Ya know, you don't have to go to Whole Foods to eat organic. Try a garden. If you don't have space for a garden, try a CSA.

Class warfare rhetoric directed at your fellow progressives is kinda silly. Probably better to reserve it for real class enemies.

[readmoreoften]

64. "Progressives" who think working class people are their own problem because

they don't grow gardens are setting themselves above working class people, not in solidarity with them. It's like when straight "progressives" lecture the LGBT community to argue with "the real enemy" as opposed to "progressives" those who think their health and sanity are trivial. Or white progressives who tell black folks that their "real enemy" is the Klan.

People know who are in solidarity with them and who aren't.

[Flaneur]

71. I just went back and read the OP. I don't see any condescension.

He's just encouraging people to make thoughtful choices. You don't have to buy corporate crap and your choices can have an impact, especially in large numbers. Really, what's the problem with that?

And I didn't notice the OP picking on the working class, as opposed to American consumers in general.

But what the hey, let's attack the Volvo-Birkenstock set, they're always an easy target.

[readmoreoften]

93. Oh, the poor upper-middle classes who drive Volvos! Who will stand for them?

What makes you think people don't make thoughtful choices in the first place? Maybe they're not buying organic because they're told that they're obese, so instead they're buying diet foods? Maybe they're not buying organic because they are educated enough to know that corporate organic is expensive nonsense and they can't afford the real thing?

The whole idea of that people need to be "encouraged to make thoughtful choices" about what they purchase IS condescending and it is directed at the working class because the vast majority of Americans are working class. Hell, no one ever uses the term "working class" instead they use words like "Joe Six Pack" (as opposed to James Aged Scotch)

For all the "big impact" that these "choices" have, you'd think Monsanto would be out of business. Of course that would probably take a mass strike and possible armed resistance of farmers in India, East Asia, Latin America, etc., which many organic consumers would happily pay taxes to suppress with white phosphorous or depleted uranium shells if they were called "terrorists" or "communists" by the U.S. government.

Why do people assume that American workers need encouragement or reminders to buy top shelf products?

[Stinky The Clown]

28. The "Organic" label in this country is a total fucking hoax and cruel joke.

The standards have been watered down by BigAg prevailing on weak assed politicians. They're essentially meaningless. Of course we pay a premium for them, which is the point of BigAg.

I don't think "Organic" is worth much anymore. We need a new term for the (now very hard to find) alternative.

[readmoreoften]

30. Not to mention the small local organic farms that can't afford the organic certification.

The system is set up for profit. Period. Not profit and good food. Not profit and good living. Not profit and creativity. Not profit and innovation. Profit at all costs. ALL costs.

[hippywife]

37. We buy local from our coop.

Many of our producers don't bother with the certification yet still produce food according to truly natural and organic standards. And they use sustainable practices.

Don't let CorpAg convince you there are no alternatives to what they offer.

[readmoreoften]

47. I can't afford co-op food. And neither can my neighbor with 2 teenage boys.

"Beyond organic" local food is delicious. It also costs more than people can afford. My local food co-op sells Odwalla and union busts. I'd rather fight corporate ag by political and labor organizing than insulting consumers by telling them they make bad choices. Why aren't the middle classes DEMANDING affordable and fresh food for poor and working people instead of telling themselves that they're striking against big agriculture by "buying local" and "personally opting out"?

[hippywife]

51. For the last time, I repeat...

I'm not saying everyone can. I'm saying that those who can should so the system can change to make safe, clean food affordable for everyone.

Through our coop, I also add an item each month to my order that donates food to a charity for the poor and working people. Many coop producers and CSA's plant extra food for food pantries. I'm sorry if your local coop isn't doing these things, maybe people should start requesting some similar things.

The people who do buy local and opt out are also working for the same for the poor and working people (of which category I'm also included. We are probably only two paychecks from being poor ourselves and have a whopping $2000 in savings for our retirement, both of us in our 50's. We live in a tiny house and don't spend money on luxuries at all.) The people who work to make these things available in our area are very active in organizations working for change. Don't assume that everyone who can just does and goes on their merry way. Nearly every person I've met is involved in trying to make this affordable for everyone.

[readmoreoften]

61. You're lucky you live in a good area.

Charity and fighting for systemic change are separate issues. My problem with the organics "movement" is that no other movement demands that people in other movements consumer their product. War resisters and the anti-war movement doesn't demand that people don't pay taxes. Police brutality activists don't demand that people de-fund their local police and they don't put up "more democratic" vigilante groups in their place. Labor activists don't demand solidarity strikes from other workers. LGBT activists don't demand that people fighting for transgender rights stop interacting with homophobic churches and they don't think change is going to come by banning gender segregated toys--hell, they're not even protesting opposite-sex marriages. Immigrant rights activists don't demand that people renounce citizenship to prove their "on-board."

But the organics movement (and every other consumer-based movement) demands that people conspicuously consume a product to be political. And for that reason they don't recognize the value of other political groups they could align with. They shame everyone instead. They act as if most people eat bad, toxic food because they are lazy and ill-disciplined--so war resisters, LGBT activists, labor activists, etc. are all "the problem." You can't build solidarity with other working class movements if you're approaching politics from a "buy-in" consumer angle. Why not use the center as a political education and research arm and build connections with other movements--without demanding that people stop drinking diet soda or eating non-local meat?

When I organize to help the Iranian protest movement, anti-war resisters, labor movements, anti-death penalty campaigns, (etc.) I don't require ANY of the people I work with to be in solidarity with my own personal struggle (LGBT violence) to join in. Instead I educate them as they educate me about their struggle.

[hippywife]

65. I hate to tell you this but

if you're informed and paying attention, then everything is political. It's no different. And you are stating things that are way more black and white than they really are. And making a whole lot of assumptions you have no basis to be making.

And I live in fucking Oklahoma for Christ's sake. How fucking progressive is that? Yet we have a strong local food movement that is very aware of the struggles of the poor and does try to help.

[readmoreoften]

69. Yes everything is a political issue but that doesn't mean every act is a political act.

Glad you have a strong local food movement that donates to the poor. But that's neighborly charity, not politics. It's like saying that I'm "political" because I do mental health work at my local LGBT center. That's just charity, its not politics. The former doesn't put a dent in big agriculture's power. The latter doesn't work toward a single civil right for LGBT people. Not that those are not lovely acts. But they're not political acts. Political means--literally--fighting for power over resources and rights within a population. Telling people to buy organic isn't political act. Charity outside of a church is not any more political than charity inside a church. Growing your own food is not a political act. It's a lifestyle. It's not bad. In fact it's great. But it's just a lifestyle.

[hippywife]

72. The "lifestyle" one chooses can be and

often is a political act. It's why we do what we're doing. It's why we grow as much as we can ourselves and careful select what we have to buy. Since change is so slow to non-existent in the highest levels of the government agencies, since corporate ag populates and runs so much of the USDA, it is very much a political act on our part and the part of many of the people we know in the local food movement. Again, you are making assumptions based on your own experiences and not what the facts are.

I can't change the lives of every single person in the world but doing what we can to effect change right where we stand and making impacts in the lives of others immediately in our sphere is sometimes the best thing we can all do. It can change the world if everyone who can does, in whatever way they are capable. It doesn't take the same shape for every single person.

It's all political.

I would suggest a wonderful book by a wonderful author: "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" by Barbara Kingsolver.

[readmoreoften]

82. If you're fighting the USDA, then it is a political act. I wasn't really directing my comments to

born farmers and rural peoples. I was directing my comments toward urban and suburban consumers who buy these products as well as stores like Whole Foods and many urban co-ops that carry all sorts of trash. My partner is a pig farmer who left Texas A&M over factory farming so I know some aspects of the struggle.

Lifestyle is not a political act for the working classes. Maybe for the farming classes, but not the working classes. Survival is the name of the game for us. If you're born in North Jersey or South Philly, you're strapped with tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt and you're working retail, rural farming is not a likely possibility for you. No more than someone who grows up on a farm and goes to Ag school is likely going to "make it" in the world of television or finance. There are green libertarians who insist that all of NYC and LA should "pick up and move" to the country. Good god I can't think of a greater disaster. And where would they move to? With no savings, living paycheck to paycheck. Heck a lot of urban working class folks dream of "a house in the country."

Everything is of political value, but not everything is not a political act. And if buying organic is a political act then it is a small and ambivalent one so long as its picked by migrant labor, etc. Buying organic is a pittance in comparison with what the cities can do. Organizing towards an urban general strike to shut down Monsanto and utilizing CSAs to provide food for the people during the general strike is far more productive--in fact its more productive even if it never comes to fruition because it educates the masses about the issue quickly.

[hippywife]

87. There is nothing ambivalent about it at all.

Just following the example set by a man who wrought much change by small and large acts of protest alike.

Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.

Whatever you do may insignificant to you, but it is most important that you do it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. As much as I disagree with you on just about everything

I must say I'm right with you on this.

I was appalled when I moved out here from the midwest to find everybody insisting that I NOT cook my eggs sunnyside or over easy because EVERYBODY knew the eggs here were all prone to salmonella because of the factory farms.

It's amazing what people just accept.

It can be changed, but we have to make it change by our control of the purse strings.

[Tim01]

33. Ok, I get it. You can't do anything. You just can't. And it doesn't matter anyway.

Good luck with the govt/corporations continuing to take care of you.

I am too disgusted to read this thread anymore.

[readmoreoften]

36. How about you spend some of that cooking and gardening time politically organizing

against Monsanto then we'll talk.

It sounds like working-class people disgust you, not the corporations.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

35. Political consumerism?

So you are what you buy?

How in the hell did this insanity take the place of real political discussion and meaningful political action?

[readmoreoften]

41. Seriously. The next person who tells me I should buy organic better be organizing to take down

Monsanto as a life goal. I'd rather someone tell me they saved their Coke points to fly to India to protest corporate food terrorism than someone tell me to grow a goddamn garden. Really? How much "local" food is available in February in the NE? You better be living on apples and pickles and meat. I don't know a single "organic garden" that survived this summer in Texas. If poor families listened to these people, they'd be living off Ramen at food banks by now.

Grow an organic garden="be working class AND peasant class"
Buy organic="be working class AND owning class."

[Flaneur]

50. What is your problem with having a garden?

Seriously, I don't get it.

Girlfriend and I have a 250 square foot garden. It is producing tomatoes, potatoes, leafy greens, peppers, corn, beans, and probably other stuff I've forgetten to mention. No fertilizers, no pesticides, some small expense in compost and soil amendments. This garden is providing a lot of nice, healthy, organic, basically FREE food.

Solidarity swings both ways, brother. Enjoy your Bic Mac.

[readmoreoften]

57. Because people in NYC don't have 250 square feet. And people in Texas all lost their gardens

in the heat wave. I'm fine with having a garden. Go for it. The food is delicious. But not everyone is in the situation where they have the free time to grow a damn garden. Every garden in Texas was destroyed during this heat wave. And its a crock that gardens are free. People lost hundreds on their gardens around here. It's a middle class pastime, not a politics.

As someone who organizes with undocumented workers, war resisters, and labor activists trying to take down major contributors to global malaise, I take offense at suggestions that these people are "the problem" because they eat a 99 cent burger on the way to the goddamn protest.

People fighting the root problem don't usually have time to grow gardens in the US.

Access to non-toxic food should not belong to the middle-class, the rich, and the rural.

[Flaneur]

67. People in NYC have access to lots of CSAs

Check it out: http://www.justfood.org/csa/

Heat waves and droughts and floods and things happen. But they don't always happen. And if your garden doesn't get burned up, you've got food you grew yourself for almost nothing.

Yeah, there are costs associated with gardens. We spent a few dozen dollars on compost and soil amendments. We use some water. But it's still almost nothing, and certainly much cheaper than buying produce, organic or otherwise, at the store.

Our garden isn't a political statement. It's just a means of getting cheap, fresh, healthy food.

Oh, noble warrior, you're too busy organizing to have a garden. But not too busy to pound away at the keyboard for a couple of hours ridiculing people who do. Right. Actually, gardening doesn't take up that much time. An initial investment in labor, then some watering, and it pretty much, er, just grows.

Yeah, I might grab me a Whopper Jr. on the way to the demo, too. Not trying to be holier than thou, just not quite understanding the resentment.

[readmoreoften]

76. Hey and you're not too busy pounding away at the keyboard ridiculing political organizers

"Oh noble weekend peasant" instead of plowing at your local CSA. Are you going to argue next that I should sell my shitty computer for organic food? I'm lucky. I don't have three kids to feed. And frankly I'm blowing off steam after a week of work and organizing 4 events. And no, I'm not going to eat a Big Mac but I have bought bottled water for people in the 100 degree heat at anti-war protests this week and I don't feel guilty in the least.

Let's face it: CSAs in NYC feed what percentage of the population? CSAs in LA feed what percentage of the population? I'm not against CSAs they're doing great stuff in Cuba right now with CSAs. But its not political activity.

Why am I so resentful towards people who act like shopping at a co-op is the end all and be all of politics? Because I try to organize these people all the time and frankly they use their shopping and gardening habits as an excuse for why they don't have to fight and then they equate the acts: "I can't show up at the picket line because I do my canning on Thursdays and that' s important too." I'd rather them say "Nah. I'm tired and I want to watch a flick." And when they do come along, its kind of embarrassing when they scold struggling families about drinking soda. Maybe you are aware that buying organic or building a garden isn't a politic act, but some of these people haven't got the memo.

But in real life I usually sic my good elderly gardener friend on them and she reminds them that their gardens aren't safe from the power plant down the street or air pollution and that the folks in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan aren't able to grow vegetables with all the depleted uranium we're dropping.

Growing a garden is a wonderful, enjoyable thing to do. Eating organic food is delicious. Acting like working class people are the problem because they don't "work hard enough" at these enjoyable activities is offensive.

[hippywife]

74. Just because you work on the issues

you choose doesn't mean other are not and no one should be derided and damned for any issue for the common good they choose to work on. After spending several years working here in the peace movement and seeing all the issues one can spin off into and even feel compelled to, I learned through almost having a nervous breakdown or a stroke that one person can't do it all. It takes many people working on them and not more than one person can possibly tackle. That's not healthy for anyone and it begins to show in the what they do.

[readmoreoften]

79. I'm not "damning" anyone for working at a CSA or buying organic. But I am for blaming others who

can't afford it as the root of the problem.

Of course one person can't do it all. If your organization is giving you a nervous breakdown or a stroke, then its not a very functional organization. There is nothing less productive and more emotionally damaging than working with an aimless organization. There are many political organizations out there that are awful and time-wasters and others that are wonderful and productive.

When groups come together it isn't MORE taxing, it's LESS taxing. For example, at one of our conferences, some white LGBT leaders started helping out with an anti-police brutality campaign which was largely straight, male, Latino/African American. They started learning about the struggles of the people who were helping them out and they started organizing to stop anti-LGBT attitudes in their neighborhoods. Then the LGBT people of color in their neighborhoods came out and started helping both groups. I've got friends organizing rallies around the Ft. Worth gay-bashing and all of them are straight working class males--every single one. Working class people need to be in solidarity with one another to survive, so we only grow stronger when we fight in each other's movements. It is a big question on how to incorporate food justice. For example, there is only one organic farm in California that is unionized. Many people I know who've worked on organic farms have faced slave labor conditions--my own partner included. These issues need to be addressed in the food movement, but many of the upper class consumers (of course not all and certainly not the working-class ones) are an obstacle to this progress.

Sorry if I was obnoxious. :hi:

[hippywife]

80. But no one here ever once

blamed anyone for not being able to afford it. That's what we've been trying to get across.

The organization wasn't disfunctional, it was just the fact that you can't get a whole lot of people, even if they agree with you, to work in peace and social justice organizations. We did as much as we could possibly do working full-time jobs and not getting home most nights until late. We were everywhere we could be and doing all we could but we were worn out.

No harm, no foul, honey. You're a good worker, just a little short on info on this one issue. That's understandable with all you are doing yourself. :hi:

[readmoreoften]

85. The OP is, in fact, scolding people for not eating better and blaming the consumer.

Saying that people should just "forgo the soda" and "buy better eggs" is just plain silly. The change has to come on the production end, not the consumption end, that's my point. There are reasons why people who drink soda do so. Toxic crap shouldn't be on the market in the first place. Like I said in my previous post, anyone involved in farming is in a different situation. It is your organizing because its your labor. There are farmers fighting the USDA and Monsanto fighting them actively (often by lawsuits and protests) that work is absolutely political. But that's quite different from middle class people who think people who work at the Target in downtown Chicago or suburban San Francisco and have a few teenagers need to chuck it all and go work on a farm or else buy expensive stuff from Whole Foods or make it to the co-op across town that's an hour away after work. Not everyone can do that and ANY solution needs to include people in this situation.

[hippywife]

89. There's no good reason I can even begin to think of

that would justify this: There are reasons why people who drink soda do so.

The majority of the people I know who buy from our coop are farmers fighting to keep their small farms and consumers supporting them. Everyone does what they can do within their own means and realm. If people who can afford to do it support it, then it keeps that system growing.

Not everyone just does it for their own benefit. Some may but I think they may be in the majority. And even so, they unwittingly contribute to the cause. You need to remember that not everyone is up to speed on the importance, but each can find teachable moments.

Again, I think you over-generalize about these things.

[readmoreoften]

96. I can give you an example why I drank a can of soda recently.

I was at an off-base military free-speech zone organizing war resisters and potential resisters for over 10 hours without stopping to eat. It was over 100 degrees outside and the central air was weak. The tap water was hot from the sun. There was no ice. No food. Nothing but a refrigerator full of sugary soda to appeal to troops. So I drank one to stay awake, get some calories in me, and get hydrated. I would've preferred to drink something else but that's what was available.

Saying that people should "never" do this is also over-generalization. People make do. To not recognize that is scolding and shaming and it breaks down the solidarity necessary to fight.

[hippywife]

78. And if you want to talk about the issue of food security

it's very prevalent in rural areas, too. There are not the number of resources in rural America there are in larger cities. All resources in all areas are overburdened right now so there's even less in both places.

[hippywife]

54. We do have an organic garden and raise our own

chickens for eggs. Taking down these huge corporate ag monstrosities starts with not supporting them financially. That hits them where it hurts. It tells them that people aren't going to live off their leavings anymore. It goes hand in hand with every other way that people work to make change. If we didn't do this, then they would have every right to say, "Well, our profits show that this is not a concern for the consumer." It makes no sense to want them brought down but to add to their profits.

[Flaneur]

49. I don't understand the sneering rejoinders to the OP.

He seems to be encouraging people to do something that is good for them, not belittling anybody.

[flvegan]

52. Reason #whatever that I'm vegan.

You do "vote" with every dollar you spend, organic or otherwise, no matter what you buy.

Not everyone can afford to buy everything organic, though. I think that's a big issue. I know I can't. I do try to stock up at farmer's markets, so at least I'm trying to stay local.

[RebelOne]

70. Vegetarian here. Not worried about buying organic meats.

Since I feed only myself, I buy organic prepared foods because I rarely prepare from scratch. I prefer zapping my meals in the microwave.

[only_one_sky]

73. Thank you!!! And becoming more and more plant-based is good for the planet!

Being pro-choice means knowing that we, in fact, do have choices in life!

[hippywife]

83. This person was TS'd

based on one post? There was nothing wrong with what they posted at all. :shrug:

[harmonicon]

105. I'm guessing that it was a new account set up by someone who already has an account...

or had been TS'd in the past. Probably had nothing to do with the post.

[KoKo]

111. Their Profile is Current...no Granite Pizza there...you must be mistaken...

:shrug:

[flvegan]

113. Look again.

[Silent3]

77. In the big picture, I'm not sure if there's much room for change.

Organic foods may in part cost more simply because supply and demand allows higher pricing for organic foods, but organic farming often costs more than non-organic alternatives, requiring more labor and land resources to produce a lower yield. There's hardly any guarantee that increased demand for organics would automatically yield economies of scale which decrease production costs and increase yields.

If it were even possible for this to happen, I'd be worried that, if all world food production shifted to organic methods, the price of food might end up further out of reach for the poorest of the poor, and I'd worry if the total world food supply could still feed nearly 7 billion people.

Then again, I have mixed feelings about so-called organic foods anyway. There may well be benefits in many cases, but too much of the appeal of organic food seems to be based on the overly simplified view: natural = GOOD! artificial = BAD!

[hippywife]

81. Natural=GOOD! Artificial=BAD!

Is not an overly simplified view. Look around at the health of your fellow Americans and the rates of obesity and disease that's been on the rise in the past thirty years since many of the changes in what's considered food took place.

Have you read In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan? It's a short easy read and very worthwhile in helping one realize why it's not an overly simplified view.

[Silent3]

90. Look at the increase in human lifespan over the past 100 years.

Oh, we've made mistakes aplenty in our handling of food and, as a general rule of thumb, it's probably generally better to use fewer chemical and pesticides.

On the other hand, we've had a more-or-less steady increase in life span over the past century or so. We certainly live a lot longer than we did when natural and organic was the only thing going, so at least part of what we're doing has to be right. I haven't read the book yet, but I know enough from when Pollan was on Real Time with Bill Maher to know that he points particularly to changes in the last 30 years (the time span you mentioned), so only time will tell if we've suddenly made any substantive backward steps in the past 30 years which will actually shorten life spans.

One important thing to remember: A long, healthy life is itself a terribly unnatural thing.

Average pre-industrial life spans were on the order of 30-40 years, and even pretty low accounting for high infant mortality separately. The only thing we can count on from our evolutionary past is that our bodies are well-tuned enough to keep us alive long enough to produce, on average, two or more children per couple, when we eat foods closer to what we've eaten in the past. Who knows? If we subjected natural foods to the same intense scrutiny we apply to artificial additives, we might find out that (totally made-up hypothetical examples) 30 years of eating carrots increases the odds of liver cancer, or too much spinach increases osteoporosis after age 60. Nothing is our evolutionary past would have helped much to shape our long-term physical responses to organic lettuce any more than to aspartame.

Many of the maladies we suffer from today are things that many people in the past simply didn't live long enough to experience in great numbers, as well as what one can call "diseases of excess". You could eat purely organic food and still suffer from diseases of excess if you mix "all natural" ingredients in taste-tempting ways that set off our appetites.

[hippywife]

92. I think the life span is now on the

downward slide. But diseases such as cancer, Parkinson's, diabetes, and dementia are on the rise in ever younger segments of the population. Some of it is excess but some of it has also been pinned on pesticides that carry over into foods and leach into water tables.

I personally have lost many friends, acquaintances, and contemporaries in the past handful of years in numbers that scare the bejeesus out of me.

A thread I posted last March in the Lounge will tell you what I've experienced since changing the way we eat:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=8617497

And speaking of, I've spent way too much time here and need to get dinner started. :hi:

[Silent3]

95. As the saying goes, "the plural of anecdote is not data".

You can't prove much based on personal examples, and even solid proof of one artificial thing being bad doesn't make all artificial things bad, just as the deadliness of all-natural hemlock doesn't reflect on other natural substances.

It's not like I'm saying keeping pesticides out of food isn't likely to be a good thing, but it may be that some pesticides really do cause no harm to humans, maybe among some of those we're already using, maybe among new ones which haven't been developed yet.

There's also a matter of possible trade offs. Massive starvation is certainly very harmful. If trying to produce all food everywhere without pesticides greatly decreased our food supply, I'd choose feeding more people using pesticides than fewer people with organic produce.

[Kalun D]

118. Agree

""Natural=GOOD! Artificial=BAD!""

Unprocessed = GOOD! Processed = BAD!

Processing usually involves heat and/or chemicals. Generally the only things not ruined by heat are grains.

there's 3 categories of food, and categories of ingredients in food

Detrimental
Nuetral
Beneficial

learn the detrimental foods/ingredients and avoid them

a few of the worst are:
bleached flour
white sugar (which is bleached)
processed sugars
high fructose corn syrup
aspartame
MSG
high salt volume

Generally stick with ingredients and prepare your own meals, pre-prepared and eating out is a crap shoot

and don't overcook stuff, anything over 108 F ruins 90% of the nutrients in most foods.

[Orsino]

84. Since the Supreme Court has given money the status of speech...

...our purchases certainly are votes.

[Honeycombe8]

86. You are right. Thx for the reminder. Altho most people can't afford organic.

But I can afford to buy some organic things. I buy organic fat free milk (no hormones in it!) and organic lettuce. But I should buy more organic things.

[JitterbugPerfume]

91. to each according to his/her ability

I buy and pick a lot of fresh produce xstraight from local farmers, buy farm fresh eggs(at $2 a dozen!)and try to stay away from anything processed . The chickens I bought from the farmer cost twice what they do at meijers, and the free range buffalo is even more expensive . I can't afford a lot of that.

That is what I can do.

If everyone did their own little bit it would all add up.

And don't forget to bring your own bag :)

[truth2power]

106. A voice of reason! Thank you. It's simple...We should all do what we CAN do..

No one is recommending someone take their rent money and buy organic food, as one poster suggested. Cripes! (Isn't that a straw man argument, BTW? Setting up an alternative so you can knock it down?)

While at the supermarket today, I bought some organic celery. Believe it or not it was cheaper, by about 20 cents, than the non-organic. I don't know how that happened. I've been buying only organic milk for a couple of months.

Now, here's the difference. I'm on a limited income. But I live alone. I don't use much milk...put it on my cereal. Cook with it. I would NOT expect someone who is feeding 5 kids to be able to do what I do.

As Jitterbug said, "To each according to his ability." If we each did a little, what a difference it would make.

Oh, and I have about a dozen cloth grocery bags in the trunk of my car. I don't like those things that look like they're made of paper or something. I throw my cloth ones in the washer occasionally. They're practically indestructible. :)

[bobbolink]

94. So, you're telling poor people not only to ...what, spend the rent money on expensive food,

but that the sad state of nutrition in this country is all our fault?

Are you so self-centered that you think that only muddle-class people like you exist in this country?

[readmoreoften]

98. I'll let you take it from here.

I've done wasted enough time.

[bobbolink]

99. Too bad you didn't "waste" time actually considering the real ability of people with less $$$$

to change anything at all.

You assume, because you don't think about poor people, that everyone is like you..... with plenty of $$$$$$ to spend on food.

Instead of blaming, which is one more game of the RW, how 'bout actually working for real CHANGE?

Like, for instance, researching why and how high fructose corn syrup became so widespread.

Then, using that knowledge, work to get it banned.

Or is it just much more fun to act superior and look down on those you consider beneath you?

[MajorChode]

108. Here's the problem with so-called "organic" foods

There seems to be an overwhelming opinion on DU that all so-called "organic" food is good and all non-organic food is bad. Nothing can be further from the truth.

First of all, what is so bad about non-organic? There's nothing inherently wrong with man-made fertilizer. It's easy to produce and the plants don't really care if they get their nitrogen from. And before someone starts pointing out the problems with using inorganic fertilizer (which are mostly due to improper application), remember that there are also plenty of problems that can happen when using animal shit. As far as chemicals and pesticides go, many that are used are completely safe. Glyphosate is the most commonly used herbicide and it's safe enough to drink. Many pesticides work by dissolving the waxy coating on bugs and are harmless to humans. Certainly some chemicals that are used have potential to be harmful, but they aren't used on all produce so it pays to educate yourself.

Be careful what you wish for in regards to "organic" food. Let's assume what you're wishing for comes to pass and all food becomes "organic". The amount of farmland needed to produce the quantity that the US (and many other countries that rely on US food products) would have to increase dramatically. Water consumption would also need to increase. California and many other areas don't have enough water as it is. The labor involved in making so-called "organic" foods would make it so expensive that many more people won't be able to afford it.

[bertman]

122. Political action is important, but so is personal action. Those of us who can afford to buy

locally-grown organic produce should do it and do it proudly. The local organic farmers I know and buy from donate food to the soup kitchens as well as sell their own products to make a living and pay their bills.

Get out your pencils (or type on your keypads) and write your representatives. Demand more investment in small, sustainable, organic agriculture by the Small Business Administration and the Dept of Agriculture. Demand that they stop subsidizing agribusiness producing surpluses of corn and soybeans using techniques that kill our soil and waters and workers. Demand that regulation of meat products and processing of meat be given a high priority by our Dept of Ag.

Make demands.

But VOTE WITH YOUR MONEY, too.

The more local organic farmers who survive and thrive, the more viable the model becomes and the more we erode Corporate Agriculture.

This is a life and death struggle for the health of humans, animals, and the planet.

Recommend highly.