Total shock at such blatant bigotry

[eilen]

Was at a friend of my husband's home yesterday. Got left behind with the wife (grrrrr). She felt perfectly fine letting me know she was changing her doctor because she saw the lady in Target with her girlfriend and their baby. "I just can't support that." She said. She kept looking at me for confirmation/support. I said-- did she not perform her job well? What does her personal life have to do with the professional job she did for you and your husband? She said that the doctor performed fine, she just didn't think she could feel comfortable knowing she was "you know."

I was in shock. I asked her "is this a generational thing?' (Inferring maybe she was old and immersed in old prejudices). Later when discussing Mormons (she spent some time in Utah), I stated I felt those cult Mormons were perverts marrying 14 year old girls to 50 year old men and she then drew a correlation to her Dr-- I was like--"Do you seriously believe there is a correlation between the relationship of two consenting adults and child rape?" She backed down. Hours of my life are now gone that I can never recover having to keep this smug controlling bitch company.

She is very involved in her Methodist church and is about 5 years younger than my mother. Are Methodists as a rule so bigoted?

I told my husband when he came back and got in the car that I am never available to do anything with that couple. He can go ahead and hang out with his friend on his own, I'm not available for couples activities. I already have a mother in law who is a bat-shit crazy republican bigoted dittohead that I have to put up with, I don't need an honorary one.

[hedgehog]

1. Maybe your conversation was the kick in the pants this woman

needs to re-examine all her prejudices. Good work!

[Frances]

2. Some of the Methodists in my Alabama hometown

were the least bigoted people I have ever met. I moved to Massachusetts from Alabama, then Maryland, then California.

There are bigoted people wherever you live.

And there are enlightened people as well.

[geckosfeet]

3. Are you still in CA? I am in MA and am considering the move. In general I like the state but

but sense that their state politics have been moving to the right.

[eilen]

4. I was really taken aback, she is a registered Democrat

Her husband is union (IBEW).

Her daughter is union (public school teacher).

The reason I asked about Methodists is that she seems pretty religious and very active in her church. She has lots of religious type stuff around her house. We live in central NY, not the Bible Belt where I would not be as surprised to find such attitudes.

This bigoted woman volunteers a lot with the elderly programs in her church but seems very willing to deprive a woman of her livelihood as a family doctor because her life partner (gay marriage not being legal yet in NY) is a woman. I hope her daughter doesn't follow her example.

[EmilyAnne]

5. Its great that you called her out on this. Even if it didn't change her mind, she was at least

exposed to someone outside the bubble where she probably spends all of her time.
From my experience, a lot of people with such opinions who are unashamed to share them do so because they are surrounded by people who believe exactly as they do.
When confronted, they seem to do a lot of blinking in the headlights and, I swear, you can sometimes hear marbles rolling around in their heads.

It reminds me of the woman I met at my father-in-law's funeral who was so happy that I had moved from Texas to Pennsylvania because I could vote for Rick Santorum!
When I told her that I thought he was one of the worst politicians in the history of our country, I really thought she was going to have a stroke.
I swear, she had never spoken face to face with a real live liberal.
For the remainder of the afternoon, I kept catching her staring at me and my husband with the most incredulous expression.

[slackmaster]

7. Good response, EmilyAnne!

The way to cure the problem of entrenched multi-generational prejudice is to teach people that there are other ways of thinking. Expose them to a better outlook.

[TokenQueer]

6. I am so sick of these Christian homophobes .

How on earth does seeing two women and a child shopping together equate to "lesbian"? Was her doctor performing oral sex on her partner in the sporting goods section of the Target? Perhaps they were sisters... or neighbors.

Sheesh.

[Kalyke]

8. You don't have to be Christian to be a homophobe.

As a matter of fact, a real Christian loves everyone and would not be a bigot. Period.

[TokenQueer]

10. And they all want to buy me a Coke, too.

:eyes:

Please, spare me your "not-all-Christians-are-homophobes" bullshit. Apparently the rest of your Christian brethren missed your platitude in the monthly newsletter. Exclamation point.

[Jennicut]

12. Well, I would say that not all of us are.

I am very Christian and very against homophobia. In fact at the church I go to the Pastor is for gay marriage.
And my own parents are much less religious then me (after all I married a church organist/choir director) and are very homophobic. I am the liberal in the family.
However, I would say overall that most Christians are probably against any kind of gay rights. I live in the Northeast as well, and gay marriage is legal here in CT.

[gratuitous]

18. Really?

That would be news to our congregation and its gay pastor. But I'm sure you know better than me, the Supportive Congregations Network, the Community of Welcoming Congregations, and the Brethren Mennonite Council for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered Concerns.

Thank you for your concern. Period.

[reflection]

48. My church is stridently anti-homophobic. As am I.

You, on the other hand, appear to be quite Christophobic. Spare me your blanket generalizations.

[TokenQueer]

49. Really.

I think the meme on this thread, Methodists as "kinder, gentler Christians", merits an objection or two. Since I was raised Methodist and abused by Methodist parents (per instructions from our minister and some fellow congregation members), I am in a unique position to do so.

As for the Supportive Congregations Network (and others cited above) it is disingenuous to imply that this smattering of churches that tolerate my presence (assuming I act straight enough and/or contribute to the church coffers) is the rule and not the exception. Gay Christians puzzle me as much as Log Cabin Republicans. Why any self respecting member of the GLBT community would want to assimilate with straight folk, by backing into a religion (or political party) that hates them, is beyond me. It seems self-loathing and counterproductive.

[reflection]

51. Opinions are inarguable. So I can't refute what you say.

I am truly sorry you were abused by your Methodist parents.

Rest assured that my church would not merely tolerate you, they would celebrate you... though I do grant that this view is, as you say, not the 'rule'. Consider that while our philosophy does not reflect the majority of Christian churches, neither are we a tiny percentage. I think there are more accepting congregations than you would think. Oh well, cuique suum.

[Donnachaidh]

9. I can only speak from my own experiences with Methodists

And I have to agree that YES, the ones I know are really bigoted, and what is worse, they seem to revel in it. These people are in-laws, and they knew I was raised Catholic (the husband had converted from Catholicism years ago) and they took every opportunity to rag on Catholics when I was around. They also talked the most heinous shit about their own fellow churchgoers, which repulsed me even more than the Papist crap they loved to spew.

My DH is a former Methodist, and he's NEVER indulged in such nastiness. I keep wondering how he came out of that gene pool with his compassion for others. It's certainly missing in his church-going siblings. We've gotten to the point that we barely speak to them anymore, because they started giving our kid grief because he didn't go to *their* church.

[mudplanet]

11. Are Methodists as a rule so bigoted?

There isn't an "rule" to bigotry. I've known Methodists that were very fine people. I've even met fundamentalist that are very good people. I was an anti-Catholic bigot myself until I went to a Jesuit college. What I learned was that it is a mistake to paint any group (well, almost any. I hate all nazis and fascists) with a broad brush.

[blogslut]

13. There's an old joke about Methodists

This fellow is getting a guided tour of heaven. He is told that in heaven, the different denominations are allowed to do the things they were forbidden to do on Earth.

In the first room, people are dancing and necking. The angel tells the fellow, "Those are the Baptists".

In the second room the people are drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes. The angel explains, "This is the Mormon room."

They come to the third room, open the door only to encounter a crowd of people sitting around, twiddling their thumbs.

"Who are they?" asks the fellow.

The Angel replies, "Them? They're Methodists."

[Cirque du So-What]

14. Methodists run across a spectrum

that ranges from full-blown fundie to fairly liberal - both theologically and socially. Sorry for you misfortune yesterday. I don't recall any organized effort on the part of the Methodist Church to pound the pulpit on 'the homosexual agenda' (as Southern Baptists have done). I'm inclined to believe this woman got her prejudice elsewhere, and judging from her age, she's likely to carry her affliction to the grave.

[JohnnyLib2]

15. No one person fully represents any denomination.

I'm sorry that you had to deal with that woman, but please don't unintentionally fall into a similar line of thinking.

[eilen]

20. I don't do this as a rule, I am

not a Methodist, grew up as Catholic-- I'm not Catholic anymore. But I know many Catholics are not militant about abortion, misogynist, and homophobic or sanction priests abusing young boys although they did fund the battle -- along with Mormons for (or against?) Prop 8 which withdrew legality from same sex marriage in California. Although here in the Northeast, I have never attended a Catholic Mass in which the priest did a homily that was anti gay (plenty of anti-choice and anti-death penalty though). Many Catholics are very liberal-- not everyone is like Mel Gibson. I am not a "christian" anymore and don't have a lot of experience with the Methodist (or any traditional Protestant church). I know Southern Baptist and some of the more fundamentalist churches, particularly in the South have a strident anti gay agenda because my family lives in TN and are always complaining of the closed mind Christian political fundy lockstep there. I just didn't know if the Methodist church was like that. This woman is from the Midwest -- Illinois, not South.

I was thinking about her comment about "not supporting that" and it seemed like such a stupid thing to say. As if she was withdrawing financial supprt to the Gay Rights Agenda rather than a family of three. She also made some kind of comment that the Dr. seemed like she was "browbeating" her partner. I wonder if she would feel fine "supporting" a male doctor who cheats on his wife and doesn't pay his child support-- or would that be a "domestic issue" and none of her business? When I pressed her on that she then admitted she didn't really know if that was true, it was her "impression."

[AspenRose]

23. .

"I am not a "christian" anymore and don't have a lot of experience with the Methodist (or any traditional Protestant church)."



Perhaps you should consider how you have set up your topic for a broad-brush attack of them, then.

You admitted that you pressed on this lady because of her "impression" of the situation. You're doing the exact same thing, based on your "impression."

I am a Methodist. (As is Hillary Clinton.) And if I were in that lady's company, I would have set her straight.

There are liberal Methodists and there are conservative Methodists. Just like there are liberal Catholics and conservative Catholics. Liberal Lutherans and conservative Lutherans. Liberal Baptists (Jimmy Carter) and conservative Baptists. One person does not represent the whole body in anything, Christendom included.

[eilen]

24. There was one line about her being Methodist,

it was not a "set-up" of broad-brushing any one. If you read further in this thread you might understand why I thought it might be her religion as she is a Democrat and I expect Democratic types to be somewhat inclusive, pro-union and progressive. Most of the post was just bitching that I had to spend my hard earned free time with, not only a woman of whom I had nothing at all in common with, but one who is a bigot. I don't care what religion she is and wouldn't even know it if she wasn't shoveling it heavily. Live and let be. Some followers of certain religions and sects are more obnoxious than others and Christians have quite a big umbrella of all types. I like to avoid the obnoxious ones. As I don't know Methodist from anyone, I asked.

Hillary Clinton was my senator and I never decided to withdraw my support because of her religion. I'm not anti- Methodist just anti-bigot.

[AspenRose]

25. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way

I expect Democrats to be inclusive and progressive as well, and yet every day here at DU I find endless examples of bigotry, homophobia, sexism and racism, in spite of the Democratic label.


In short, you are going to find obnoxious people under every label, including Methodists and Democrats. Which is why it's important to look at what people DO and SAY, and base discerning judgments on that, instead of on what they say they ARE. That is of lesser importance.

[JohnnyLib2]

30. Agreed, and nicely said.

:thumbsup:

[givemebackmycountry]

16. I was at my local Publix yesterday (grocery store chain)

North of Orlando, Florida.

Standing in line at the checkout, two or three people in front of me and one fat ugly woman behind me.
Sorry, but that is what she was.
Fat and Ugly, and in her 50's I would guess.

There were two girls checking out in the line next to us, probably in their 20's, sweet looking kids, and it was obvious that they were together.
This "woman" behind me is huffing and puffing under her breath, and I turn and take a look at her just as these two girls happily wheel their cart away, oblivious to the ugliness that was about to transpire.

So this blob catches me staring at her, and she says "That's disgusting" her voice dripping with hatred.
I reply, "No, that's not disgusting, what's disgusting is your fat ass jammed into those ugly brown shorts you got on".
She wasn't expecting THAT.

By the time I swiped my debit card and grabbed my receipt, I glanced back at her and she was red as a lobster.

Sometimes, ugliness needs to be met with the same.
I hope she thought about me for the rest of the night.

edited to add: I don't know or care what religion she was, ugliness is ugliness.

[Vickers]

19. Har!

I've had a couple encounters like that. Sometimes you just have to be mean to wake people up.

[bertman]

26. nice comeback, givemebackmycountry. I wish I was that quick on my feet.

[Odin2005]

37. BWAHAHA!!! Good one!

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

40. ugly is. but good on you to use the excuse of her behavior to justify your own

i have never felt the need to reciprocate with ugly, thinkin it would be productive at all. as a matter of fact, you probably just cemented her hatred, ....

ya

good job

[givemebackmycountry]

44. sea-beyond - I understand that, and when I got to my car, I immediately regretted what I did.

And I'm sorry I did that to a degree.
But, I have problems of my own that cause people to stare at me, and I'm just so sick of the intolerant and ignorant.
After living in right wing majority places most of my adult life (Dallas, KC, Nashville, KC, and now Florida) I have had my fill of this shit.

Usually, I'm pretty tolerant but I am starting to think, they hate US.
I'm going to hate 'em right back.
I guess I'm just too old for this shit anymore.

[seabeyond]

46. so sick of the intolerant and ignorant. .... me too

i know the anger and knee jerk. i am in panhandle of texas, lol. right there with you. form calif, so two decades of this shit, i am just as angry. kids going thru school, the intolerance.... i have said exactly what you say, so i get it.

thanks for further explanation, ....

[sarcasmo]

42. Nice, you almost made her stroke out. LMFAO.

[TokenQueer]

50. Hilarious!

Thanks for that. I will be chuckling about that all week. :rofl:

[Bluenorthwest]

17. I've read the thread and here it goes. Methodists

They come in all flavors. But I have to say that I have had involvement with two Methodist congregations that were absolutely wonderful groups of people. In my former hometown, a large and highly visible Methodist Church not only hung a giant Red Ribbon for AIDs awareness from their bell tower for years on end, but they were among the first to host the AIDS Quilt, in a massive display. They used their Sanctuary when they had other buildings, and that gesture has never escaped my mind. It was a long time ago, and that was an act of courage and righteousness.
The Methodists down the street from me now are also inclusive, and liberal, and they are good neighbors with a lovely church. I have been to several events there, and even one service, because they open their doors to all, and use the church for good things. I can sing a hymn with those Methodists!

You did well. And you saw through that window that many have to look through daily. You stepped right up and looked through it, when you could have looked the other way. Good on you. And peace to you.

[seabeyond]

21. methodist is the most laid back and mellow and accepting in this area. i believe it was methodist

during the highs of repug hate gays campaign that publicly went out and embraced the gays.

methodist are even more mellow than the use to be catholics. baptists say the catholics are heathens and the methodist are the lazy christians cause they are accepting.

[eilen]

27. Thanks.

I had no idea. I knew that some American protestant religions hated Catholics-- Baptists because of some comments I heard when I was down South and also the whole Klan history. I rejected Middle-Eastern based religions a long time ago and adhere to my ancestral religion so am oblivious of the Christian sect pissing contests. I know some are more vocal about their prejudices and promoted more close-mindedness than others.

I guess what it comes down to is that people are people and pick up their attitudes from many things. The woman who pissed me off is very well-traveled--last 10 years of RVing across the country and has met many many types coming from hundreds of different backgrounds so I was very surprised and dismayed to hear this coming from her.

[seabeyond]

34. what i think happened. using gays as a wedge issue, today there is more bigotry towards

gays than more than a decade ago.

the numbers showed support fo gay marriage higher in the past than today. before, people were more accepting. when it became a wedge issue, the hate and continual feeding of it conditioned..... conditioned the people that in the past would be live and let live. and the battle began. that is how i see it.

conditioning.

we dont talk about it often here, and we like to pretend that we cannot be, that primitive guides us. but for my money, what i have seen over the years, it is the conditioning that is the battle and awareness nulls and voids the ability to condition. so the harm in denying the conditioning is the real enemy

one poster suggested doing ugly with ugly. i have never embraced being ugly... let alone, be ugly, use hate to combat ugly and hate. it is like the child that hits and a parent smackin the kid and saying, .... i told you not to hit. how stupid and nonproductive is that.

reason, love seem to leave a greater impression. not saying will change the persons attitude of a lot of conditioning, but can spark a lite into thinking

i had no idea baptist felt that way about catholics. i dont do religion of any kind and my beliefs are skewed adn different than most all though the same too.... in that i think there is a universal one.

but i have heard many people in this area, (especially when i started flat out asking) actually think catholic is not christians and their feelings towar catholic. that is the funny, the right using catholic to promote their rw christian coalition battle. has always not made sense. that catholic dont know the hypocrisy of the baptist in arms, really think and preach so poorly about them.

odd stuff

[Neecy]

22. it's a common stereotype

The woman said she "wasn't comfortable" with a lesbian doctor. This is because we can't keep our hands off of anything female, even if the woman is elderly, even if we have a partner and child. At least that was what this woman was conveying to you.

She sounds like one of those 'lifestyle' freaks who obsess endlessly over our sexuality while understanding nothing of our lives.

Edit to add: THANK YOU for speaking up.

[eilen]

31. Your welcome, I guess. I don't understand the confusion

people have regarding equal rights for all. Certainly people would have issues with persecution for being a christian, which IS a lifestyle choice. The right to your pursuit of happiness is just as important.

And last I checked, our sexuality is not a choice, just how we are wired. It's part of who we are. And to my experience, we don't base every decision and action on our sexuality, that is obviously inappropriate. I am hetero and I work as a nurse and believe me, when at work I don't approach any male patient as if there is some kind of underlying sexual intention. I am a professional at what I do. The few times the opposite was brought up was by some inappropriate male patients (which just proves you can't be too old or too sick to be a pig) and they were set straight. Why people think that gays are any different puzzles me and it just makes my day knowing these same people have had gay women and men working alongside them, caring for their parents, their children and don't realize how stupid they sound when they say things like that.

restricting marriage, adoption, military service, etc. is institutionalized bigotry and a black mark on our society.

Keep fighting the good fight.

[bertman]

28. eilen, for the way you handled that situation, you deserve a big "attagirl!" Sometimes

when people are faced with the reality of their bigotry and "assumptions" about others it can be a cathartic event.

My experience with people like that is that they are so surrounded by others who are spouting the same thoughtless nonsense that they don't even take the time to really consider what they are saying and thinking. Many of them are just frightened to death of anything other than the familiar.

I'm a straight man who, for almost 25 years, has been a friend and business partner of a lesbian who is "married" to another woman and has a grown daughter. It has been my experience that straight-laced, religious, folks who interact with us in business generally respect my partner for her abilities as a contractor first, THEN after years of working with her and getting to know her as a normal, red-blooded, hard-working parent they begin to see that she is no different from them. Sometimes the process takes years, but it usually turns their heads around to a place where they see her as a human being FIRST, and a lesbian SECOND.

By confronting this woman with logic rather than anger you may have helped her to become a more thoughtful person. Sometimes that one, single revelation can lead a person to become "straight, but not narrow". And, sometimes when a person is able to confront their old prejudices and see them for what they are, it opens up a whole new way of viewing the world. One that is much more beneficial for all of us.

Recommend this thread.

[davsand]

29. "Some Methodist congregations are more progressive than others." That is how it was explained to me

14 years ago when Kevsand and I got married, we got married in the Methodist church I went to as a kid. Personally, I wanted to get married in the UU church where we were actually living, but getting married in the small town Methodist church where I grew up was a concession to both our more traditional sets of parents.

They required three premarital counseling sessions of us, and let me tell you THAT was not an easy thing because there is not too much about us that fits with the "traditional" model. We were very open about the fact that we lived together (gasp!) and that we were getting married mostly as a nod to tradition rather than any overwhelming desire for the blessing of a church. The Minister coped pretty well with that.

The Minister coped pretty well with our choices of music (not that Handel or Vivaldi is ALL that far out) and he was fine with the Euripides piece that we wanted read during our service. He never flinched at the little cupids hidden in our flowers, and he was totally fine with the back of the wedding programs explaining the Roman Festival of Venus and how that gave birth to April Fool's Day pranks (yes, we got married on April 1.)

It was all going so well up to the point that he asked us during the final counseling session "What role with the church play in your marriage?"

Out of the corner of my eye I saw my prospective husband kinda slide a few feet to one side as if he was expecting lightening bolts or some kind of explosion...

I then explained to the minister that the organized church was probably not gonna ever play much of a role in our lives.

He then (very calmly) asked me why.

I explained that when I found a church that upheld my beliefs I'd be happy to join it, but that any church that had issues with GLBT clergy or same sex marriage was no place I wanted to call my home. I went on to say that love of any kind between two equal people is a gift to be celebrated rather than a subject of hate.

Expecting that our wedding plans had probably just been dumped in the crapper I waited for an invitation to leave the minister's office. Instead he looked me dead in the eye and told me that I was welcome in the church any time. Then he said, "Some Methodist congregations are more progressive than others."

YMMV, but I have yet to join a church in spite of the fact that I got married in one.


Laura

[givemebackmycountry]

36. That's a great post, and I mean that too!

It made me smile.
It made me laugh (lightening bolts and explosions).
It brought a tear to my eye (the last line).

You did good.

[davsand]

39. Well, thank you so much for saying that!

I've always viewed DU as the home of a lot of very fine writers. It means a lot to get a compliment on my writing when I'm in this company.

:hi:


Laura

[ChickMagic]

53. davsand, that is a great post

Derby & I got married on April 1 also. We won't ever forget it!

[Brooklyns_Finest]

32. Interesting

While the lady seems to be bigoted against gay people and she deserves the criticism that she has gotten here. I find it ironic that nobody noticed the bigoted comment you made against Mormons. I do not know any Mormon people, but I will bet that the majority of them are not perverts. Then again, maybe I misread your post and you were referring to the LDS people in Texas. Even then, I will be hard pressed to calling those people perverts either. There are laws to protect children from preditor adults. Have these men been arrested for statutory rape?

[eilen]

35. I was referring to the cult type group that participates

in plural marriage, promising girls to church elders and abandoning young teenage boys in nearby communities to survive on their own. Not the LDS church but the FDLS. They are in more states than just Texas.

I don't know what your threshold for perversion is, but elderly men taking callow, brainwashed, uneducated inexperienced teenagers as their "brides" meets mine.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. My guess is that it may be more about age than about

Methodism...

Methodist churches run the gamut, I think. But many older Americans are simply quite ignorant, and therefore fearful, of GLBT folks. It's easier for them to simply remain that way, rather than have to admit when shown that people are just people that they've been acting in a bigoted way all these years.

It sounds like this person is just plain comfortable in her secure little bigoted world. I don't blame you a bit for refusing further socializing, though it might just be possible that you've planted a good seed. Let's hope it grows!

[juno jones]

38. I encountered a similar type once in Spfld, IL.

She was a co-worker about 10 years older than me. Kinda girly in an immature way some women (cultural thing?) are...Pooh clothes, flowers, aggrssively pink. She had these horrible headaches on a frequent basis. She claimed they were migraine, but I suspect stress, because a few massage/myofacial release tricks on the neck would relieve them. I suggested that she start seeing a massage thereapist to help with her pain. She freaked out. "No way am I gonna let some strange man touch me!" I then said, well, there are female massage therapists out there if you you prefer. She got even more freaked. Seems that having a woman touch her physically in any way (especially when she was vulnerable, ie: undressed) was the most horrific thing..."But what if they're GAAAAAAY?". Like gay people would just grope you up...or would want to for that matter.

You're doing the right thing. I'm sure you have better things to do than hang out with someone who you obviously don't really click with, let alone feel simpatico with.

[BlooInBloo]

41. Shocking.

[TexasObserver]

43. Methodists are usually fairly reasonable. This is on HER.

Have you considered simply saying "doesn't it embarrass you to say such backward and bigoted things?"

Why tip top around these kind of jackasses? They need to know that even if they think such things, there is a high price to pay for saying them. Her comments implicitly presume your approval, and by communicating your absolute disapproval, you help curb that kind of comment.

It's not always easy to jump on someone who does that, but what's the downside? Worst case, you never have to talk to them again.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. My wife is a Methodist and she pressured her church into openly welcoming Gays.

With the support of the pastor (female) and the opposition of some of the wealthier donors who threatened to walk out.

But, my wife, bless her, is a hard nosed, ex Catholic, Marxist, troublemaker who has the tenacity of a pit-bull at lunchtime.

She also has a sister who is a Lesbian and takes it a bit personal when the bigots get nasty.

[Wednesdays]

47. K&R

:kick:

[Fire1]

52. "knowing she was" WHAT?? Methodist, gay, Mormon, Pro-

choice ????????? Don't get it.