KNR if you feel it's time to abolish the CIA.

[Union Yes]

The death squads.

The torturers.

The assassination squads.

America's own shadow holocaust against the Left, globally.

CIA led efforts to turn Central and South America into America's slave pit.

The CIA defines what shadow government is all about.

They operate above the law and often under it's radar altogether.

They literally answer to no one, not even congress apparently.

[RandomThoughts]

1. When people say CIA they don't mean the same thing.

They might be talking about paid mercenaries from rich people or business interest that have some training in that area.

Or they might be talking about some asset that had some connection and ideology the same as part of that organization at one time or another.

Or they might be talking about someone trained in an ideology

Or they might be talking about analyst working on figuring out what happens around the world

Or they might be talking about rogue groups of people hired and using that label to get some boogeyman image.

Or they might be talking about some person acting that way to get some label.


It is a broad term that probably gets used wrong alot.


Personally I do believe in oversight, for many reasons including getting rid of elements that work against government interest for their own self reasons.

[Occam Bandage]

8. Or they might be talking about a foreign intelligence and analysis agency.

Strange that wasn't listed.

[RandomThoughts]

16. Not really strange.

I don't think of things as one foreign country against another. So probably why I did not list it.

It seems that intelligence agencies are in the private sector in foreign countries. Like how Bush 43s brother ran a security consulting company out of Dubai. You could call that a foreign security apparatus, but it is more a private corporate apparatus that is part of a global corporation.

The private sector security companies and their smear and fear capabilities will have to be smashed also. Not sure when, but they will be dismantled also.

Same thing with the global marketing companies that own publications and have multiple board of directors interconnecting the different corporations.

There is something else I left out of the comment.

I see alot of it as supernatural. Personally I have no connections with anyone, not in government or private systems, which makes the anomalies to me proof of the supernatural. So there is another element in the mix. Their are supernatural forces at work also, some good some bad. And their connections can not be seen in worldly fashion. They work more on shared ideology and belief then being an actual organization.


I would be interested in knowing what you think is 'strange' about me leaving that out of the post.

[Occam Bandage]

19. I think it's strange you didn't list that because that is, strictly speaking, what the CIA is.

The fact that you think the CIA is involved in the supernatural, though, is a pretty good sign that you and I are not going to have a productive conversation.

[RandomThoughts]

21. I am not saying the CIA is involved in supernatural.

I am saying some supernatural events get moved into people thinking they are part of some secret group. As far as supernatural, that is well proven, but I understand people have different beliefs.

[Occam Bandage]

26. "As far as supernatural, that is well proven."

See, this is what I'm talking about. Let's make a gentleman's agreement: I won't try to convince you, and you won't try to convince me. Save us both some time and effort.

[RandomThoughts]

30. heh, I really don't go out of my way to convince people.

I have no problem with people believing differently.

Had to check your name though LOL Long story.

I am not trying to convince you, but it is such a fundemental factor in how things work and correlate that many things don't make sense without that context.

[A HERETIC I AM]

38. You really should ease up on the smokin' on Sunday arvo's

I am not trying to convince you, but it is such a fundemental factor in how things work and correlate that many things don't make sense without that context.

Yup.

Fishwallop generator has clandestine transmission of glass kinetic careful lettering.

Makes perfect sense.

[RandomThoughts]

41. Could you explain that more.

I do not know what arvo is.
Not sure what you mean by smoking.

I understand their are many views of Sunday, and I try to spend time every Sunday in reflection, but do not believe in a total lack of work based on laws like some religions do.

Fishwallop? comedy sketch? or does it mean something else.

clandestine transmission? I am clear and try to speak as forthright and open as I can, I don't believe in secrecy.

glass kinetic? what do you mean by that?

careful lettering? what is that?

[A HERETIC I AM]

44. Based on your previous posts in this subthread....

probably not to your satisfaction.

"Arvo"
Australian and New Zealand slang for "afternoon"

[pokerfan]

45. ARVO

Association for Research in Vision and Ophthalmology

[A HERETIC I AM]

46. Therefore....

"I have an appointment at the ARVO this arvo" would be a proper sentence.

[RandomThoughts]

47. You actually added obscurity to your post.

By saying based on previous comments in thread, you now ask me to both interpret your comments, and then understand why you can not explain them based on some unknown collection of comments in my or other peoples previous posts.

What exact comments in the sub thread make is so you can not explain it to what you perceive as my satisfaction?

Thanks for definition of Arvo: afternoon.

There are some people that like to talk with assumed known meanings of things. I see this all the time in so many art forms and conversations, but what that does is lead to interpretations and people don't really speak, but they create in their own mind what they think the other person says. So I try and avoid such conversations and try to say what I think as clearly as I can. I also like to hear what people say and not try and interpret meaning into things, so comments so obscure have no real meaning.

[A HERETIC I AM]

48. Oh Jesus, where to start?

When people say CIA they don't mean the same thing.

When people say CIA they mean The Central Intelligence Agency. Unless they are morons.

They might be talking about paid mercenaries from rich people or business interest that have some training in that area.

If they are referring to paid mercenaries from rich people then that's what they should refer to. Still morons.

Or they might be talking about some asset that had some connection and ideology the same as part of that organization at one time or another.

Please, PLEASE try to proofread what you write if you expect anyone to take you seriously. This sentence makes absolutely NO FUCKING SENSE WHATSOEVER

Or they might be talking about someone trained in an ideology

Really? When people say "CIA" they "might" be referring to those someones? Really?

Or they might be talking about analyst working on figuring out what happens around the world

Analysts work in all kinds of disciplines. Intelligence is but one of them.

Or they might be talking about rogue groups of people hired and using that label to get some boogeyman image

Again, Proofread please. More nonsense. You MIGHT be trying to make a point with this statement that has a kernel of truth to it, but your language misses it by a mile.

Or they might be talking about some person acting that way to get some label

So when "people say CIA" they might be .....oh fuck it.

It is a broad term that probably gets used wrong alot.

No, it isn't a "broad term" at all. It is the name of an agency. Period.

I don't think of things as one foreign country against another. So probably why I did not list it.

Perhaps you should try.

It seems that intelligence agencies are in the private sector in foreign countries.

It "seems" that way to you, does it? Bollocks.

Like how Bush 43s brother ran a security consulting company out of Dubai. You could call that a foreign security apparatus, but it is more a private corporate apparatus that is part of a global corporation.

So what? There are plenty of private "Security" firms in the world. Not all have a nefarious purpose. Most are quite benign.

The private sector security companies and their smear and fear capabilities will have to be smashed also. Not sure when, but they will be dismantled also.

So a company that investigates and analyzes potential threats to...say an offshore oil platform and reports to the owners and operators of that platform should be dismantled? Why?

Same thing with the global marketing companies that own publications and have multiple board of directors interconnecting the different corporations.

Of course, because heaven forbid a company that produces a product with broad appeal should share information and people with other companies. More bollocks.

There is something else I left out of the comment.

What? That you don't have any clue what you're talking about?

I see alot of it as supernatural. Personally I have no connections with anyone, not in government or private systems, which makes the anomalies to me proof of the supernatural.

Again, you REALLY shouldn't partake in so many mood and consciousness altering substances on Sunday afternoons. This sentence just makes you sound, well, nuts.

So there is another element in the mix. Their are supernatural forces at work also, some good some bad. And their connections can not be seen in worldly fashion. They work more on shared ideology and belief then being an actual organization.

Excuse me while I channel Carlos Mencia; "Deet de deee" Nuts man, nuts. You're letting your idea of how powerful an intelligence agency is run away with you. Relax.

I am saying some supernatural events get moved into people thinking they are part of some secret group. As far as supernatural, that is well proven, but I understand people have different beliefs.

As Occam Bandage said, "The fact that you think the CIA is involved in the supernatural, though, is a pretty good sign that you and I are not going to have a productive conversation."

There are some people that like to talk with assumed known meanings of things. I see this all the time in so many art forms and conversations, but what that does is lead to interpretations and people don't really speak, but they create in their own mind what they think the other person says. So I try and avoid such conversations and try to say what I think as clearly as I can. I also like to hear what people say and not try and interpret meaning into things, so comments so obscure have no real meaning.

You know, this statement reminds me of having a conversation with someone that has just smoked some really good weed. They are talking, and they are really serious, and they are convinced what they are saying is gospel truth, but in reality, it is making no fucking sense at all.

Fishwallop generator has clandestine transmission of glass kinetic careful lettering.

And I mean that most sincerely and with complete conviction, for I am convinced of my being correct.


Look, the United States Central Intelligence Agency has done things in the past, and probably will in the future that we as a nation and certainly I as a citizen should not be proud of. Do they have extraordinary capabilities? Yes they do. Have they done incredibly bad things? Yes they probably have, likely more and worse than you or I will ever know. Should they be done away with?

Under no circumstances.

Want to know why it is so hard to get information from CIA employees and operatives? Because they take an oath. That means something. The CIA is, by and large, populated by people who love this country and do diligent work trying to protect it. Not everyone who works for the CIA is a horrible person whose job needs to be abolished. There are certainly bad apples, as there are in every large organization, but for the most part, The Company provides intelligence gathering services that are valuable and worthwhile.

[RandomThoughts]

52. Thanks for the clarification.

My comment is on how people like to blame everything on the CIA. For instance the Coup in Honduras. I am not talking about what the CIA is, I am talking about how so many people want to blame them for everything.

People that could be behind the coup in Honduras could fit into many of the different types of groups people think of when they just use the label CIA. They were trained in SOA but that does not mean they work for CIA, or are part of it. But they could be past assets, or they could have had connections in the past, or they could share ideologies, or they could be part of a larger group of business owners.

Do you see how just using the Honduras example, where people in news say the CIA did it, you can see they might be in any of the groups I spoke of as ideological or business orientated.

Same thing with drug trafficking. People say the CIA are moving drugs. We know there was some nefarious things with Iran-Contra in the 80s, but their is no way to know if it is drug lords, people with ideologies, or just business people looking for profit, but again they could use people that use to have connections, or want people to think they had connections. But what do people say, its the CIA. When it might be any of the things I listed not the actual CIA.

Even in foreign governments CIA could recruit an asset, then that asset is cut loose, many years later he could be using that label for his own reason. But what would people say, the CIA did it, but it would not be the CIA it would be one of the other things I listed.

The examples I gave are all the things 'people just group' under one big boogey man called the CIA.

Again, you REALLY shouldn't partake in so many mood and consciousness altering substances on Sunday afternoons. This sentence just makes you sound, well, nuts.
I don't use drugs, and I understand this makes me sound nuts to many people. Not worried about that. See signature.

Excuse me while I channel Carlos Mencia; "Deet de deee" Nuts man, nuts. You're letting your idea of how powerful an intelligence agency is run away with you. Relax.
I am completely agreeing with you, it aint the CIA, but many people think spiritual problems are things like the CIA. You may be misunderstanding my post. Ever heard of the people that talk about mind waves(no I do not believe that) but some people think spiritual events are some government mojo being used on them. That is silly, and as I said, many people think spiritual events are some how some normal event. They say its the CIA, when it is either spiritual or mental illness.

I actually give the CIA very little credit for things done, as the CIA also does, but power is presumption of power, so many people like to claim they are part of something even if it just happens to create illusions. Also slight modifications in the choice and telling of stories can create chains of perspective. Where people say, its the CIA, when it is something else.

As Occam Bandage said, "The fact that you think the CIA is involved in the supernatural, though, is a pretty good sign that you and I are not going to have a productive conversation."
I am not saying they are involved, I am saying people think they are when it is something else, and it gets put in that big grab bag of boogeyman and called the CIA, we are making the same argument. And I will spare you from explaining it further, its a long story.


You know, this statement reminds me of having a conversation with someone that has just smoked some really good weed. They are talking, and they are really serious, and they are convinced what they are saying is gospel truth, but in reality, it is making no fucking sense at all.
Sorry you could not understand it. I was commenting on the style of your post being obscure in meaning.

Look, the United States Central Intelligence Agency has done things in the past, and probably will in the future that we as a nation and certainly I as a citizen should not be proud of. Do they have extraordinary capabilities? Yes they do. Have they done incredibly bad things? Yes they probably have, likely more and worse than you or I will ever know. Should they be done away with?

Under no circumstances.

Want to know why it is so hard to get information from CIA employees and operatives? Because they take an oath. That means something. The CIA is, by and large, populated by people who love this country and do diligent work trying to protect it. Not everyone who works for the CIA is a horrible person whose job needs to be abolished. There are certainly bad apples, as there are in every large organization, but for the most part, The Company provides intelligence gathering services that are valuable and worthwhile.

At what point was I talking about people at the CIA, and not what people say the CIA is? The only comment I make is their should be oversight and accountability. And as I said before, most people at CIA are analyst working desk jobs reading and writing books. But as I said in this thread, people call a whole bunch of other things the CIA and bunch anything they can not figure out into some nefarious government conspiracy they call the CIA.

[abumbyanyothername]

2. The CIA will never be abolished

They will just go to work directly for the Rockefellers, Morgans, Goldman/Sachs' etc.

[Hydra]

4. Don't they?

It's often claimed that Congress and The President don't know what they are doing. Obviously, if they aren't giving the orders, someone with money IS.

Personally, I think they know but don't care, but that's another issue.

[BlooInBloo]

3. Down with rec-requesting threads.

[anonymous171]

5. Why don't we just limit the CIA to intelligence gathering?

Leave the major "operations" to the military.

[Sebastian Doyle]

6. OK, which Freeper Bush enabling asshole unrec'd this?

Seriously.... this is DEMOCRATIC underground. If you're here to defend ANY division of the Bush Crime Family, you're on the wrong fucking board.

[Cali_Democrat]

11. I think quite a few people unrec'd this post. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

14. The CIA is an extraordinarily valuable intelligence/analysis agency,

without which the President would be effectively blind beyond our own borders. The fact that the CIA has been ordered to do illegal/counterproductive things is not sufficient cause to eradicate the concept of intelligence; it is sufficient cause for increased regulation and accountability and nothing else.

[Union Yes]

20. I said nothing of eradicating the concept of intelligance gathering.

I said that I feel it is time to abolish the CIA.

Out of that, a new agency would have to be created.

One that has it's every step regulated by congress.

[Occam Bandage]

24. I see two options for that route.

The first is to entirely re-invent the wheel, saving nothing of the CIA in tactics, knowledge, personnel, connections, or structure. This would have the advantage of clearing it out entirely, but would be extraordinarily costly, would result in the utter destruction of our current information networks and information agreements (many of which have taken literally decades to establish), and would blind not only Obama but the next few Presidents as well. This would also be a slow start, as by necessity any American with any intelligence experience would be forbidden from working with the CIA.

The second is to abolish the CIA, but to attempt to retain the intelligence networks we currently have, and to retain the trained professionals necessary to our intelligence services. This would amount to a new agency in name only, and would be nothing but an enormous waste of money.

I think a better option is for Congress to call an independent, closed-door panel with full security clearance, made of people with a trustworthy background, to reorganize the CIA and offer suggestions for better regulation and accountability.

[Union Yes]

28. Logical solutions no doubt. But, can congress actually gain control of the CIA?

And completely end the death squads, the torture, the assassinations, the School of the Americas.

So much of this happened in secrecy.

Much of it also happened right under our noses too.

The problem is what the CIA has grown into. A monster.

One that apparantly can't be contained or reasoned with.

If congress can control that then I support your solutions. For what it's worth.

[Sebastian Doyle]

33. Sometimes the "wheel" needs to be reinvented.

Health care is one example (i.e. single payer). Intelligence gathering (as opposed to creating enemies, training terrorists, and smuggling drugs like the Bush Crime Family CIA does) is another.

[Occam Bandage]

36. As nice as it would be to have a reinvented wheel,

no President and no Congress would agree to effectively have zero intelligence ability for an extended period of time--with perhaps more than a decade of crippled intelligence ability following--in order to extend greater oversight abilities over our intelligence services, especially when those oversight abilities could theoretically be granted painlessly and immediately with one law.

[jeanpalmer]

59. What have they done?

Let's put it this way. If it hadn't existed for the past 60 years, would we have suffered any major disadvantage?

I can't think of any. It's a waste of money. Abolish it.

But it has become an indestructible parasite, like the military, sucking the life out of our country.

[Mythsaje]

27. You asked for a K and R

and the vast majority of pro-unrec people have stated that one of their reasons for backing unrec is to get the chance to unrec any thread that ASKS for Recs.

[Sebastian Doyle]

34. Yeah, I suppose that's possible for some of them.

But there's also some that drink the CIA kool aid by the gallon. Look any thread concerning 9-11 or JFK (among other historical events where the "official" story is a steaming load of fertilizer)

[Occam Bandage]

7. The best part of unrec is that K&R threads are now obsolete. nt

[abumbyanyothername]

9. Agreed.

sheesh.

[LostInAnomie]

37. Amen, to that.

I don't care what the topic is. If I see a "K&R if...", I make a point to unrec it.

[JVS]

10. It would be easier to order one half of the CIA to assassinate the other half of the CIA.

Then the last survivors of that can be arrested.

[Union Yes]

12. Hilarious!

[JVS]

17. Actually, I'm being serious. These are not people who you can safely leave unemployed or...

push into early retirement.

[Union Yes]

18. Word. I hear ya. I just thought about the scenario and found it hilarious.

Imagine the 2 halves of the CIA being told to assassinate the other half. The impending paranoia. Shadow gov vs Shadow gov.

In reality there'd be nothing funny about it. But hypothetically, funny as hell to envision.

[crickets]

57. I just had a Mad Magazine Spy vs. Spy moment of hilarity as well.

The reality isn't funny, it's frightening as hell, but just for a moment...

[abumbyanyothername]

39. Just do it like the opening scene is

The Dark Knight. Everyone has assassination orders until there is only one left.

[Iggo]

13. Kicked and Un-Rec'd

:P

[Union Yes]

22. Nice

:hippie:

I actually don't even care about the rec count.

Just wanted to see how people felt about the CIA.

Peace

[Iggo]

54. Sorry, man. It's an automatic for me.

All posts about Rec/Unrec and all RTTI's get the unrec. No exceptions.

[rucky]

15. Bunch of thugs.

[Ian David]

23. I love The CIA. I love America.

Please don't kill me.

[Union Yes]

25. Beware the Electric Eye, I learned that from Judas Priest.

;-)

[Iggo]

55. There's nothing you can do about it.

Develop and expose.

I feed upon your every thought

And so my power grooooows....:headbang:

[Hippo_Tron]

29. I've got news for you, those things have been happening before the CIA was established

[Union Yes]

31. Right on but upon creation the CIA took the reigns and ran with it.

And committed atrocity after atrocity in the name and under the guise of "intelligence gathering" ever since.

[Hippo_Tron]

61. My point is that if we get rid of the CIA and they will find some other mechanism to do it

The CIA acted according to the direct orders of the President in nearly all of those cases. The CIA isn't the problem. The problem is America's arrogant belief that we can tell the rest of the world what to do.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Abolish it and try the criminals in it and attached to it. Preferably in an intenatal court. K&R

[LostInAnomie]

35. The CIA is fine.

The problem is that they are ordered to do immoral things sometimes by immoral people. CIA or no CIA, these things will still be ordered. They will simply find another agency or someone else to do it.

[LAGC]

40. K&R

But it did no good. Too many drive-by Freepers and pro-Establishment hounds have driven it into negative territory...

[Octafish]

42. Secret Government is un-American.

Truman started CIA to gather and refine the nation's myriad intel resources. Then, it got hijacked by Dulles and his NAZI buddies. So far, it hasn't done much to benefit the average American -- not counting employment as cannon fodder. For those interested in the subject:

Know your BFEE: Spawn of Wall Street and the Third Reich

Know your BFEE: Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ford Covered Up CIA Murder of American Scientist

Beat the BFEE: Poppy’s CIA warned about terror plots and did not stop them

Know your BFEE: Nazis couldn’t win WWII, so they Backed Bushes.

Know your BFEE: The Secret Government

Know your BFEE: Reinhard Gehlen

Want to see what 62 years of secret government have got us, look around -- permanent wars, rich banks and broke people.

[crickets]

58. Thank you. -nt

:thumbsup:

[CrawlingChaos]

60. Excellent post - couldn't agree more (n/t)

[Zen Democrat]

43. I remember when Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan introduced a bill to abolish the CIA.

It was at the end of the Cold War and Moynihan was furious that the CIA had completely missed the the political and economic conditions in the Soviet Union, while while Reagan and Bush ran up monstrous debt on defense systems to fight the Cold War which wouldl soon be no more. According to Moynihan, everybody BUT the CIA knew the Soviets were finished. He proposed putting the intelligence services under the aegis of the State Department.

It was no-time before Saddam Hussein became Public Enemy #1 and the US had to start fighting wars in order to justify the continuation and escalation of massive spending on weapons systems, and the pouring of billions into black holes. The War Economy.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Stranger]

50. We have to start somewhere.

[MrSlayer]

51. They are a necessary evil.

We need the CIA, we can't be left blind out there. No one else is going to give up their spying organizations.

[EFerrari]

53. The CIA isn't just a spying organization.

If that's all they did, that would be great.

They are a criminal outfit that commits crimes against other governments, that is involved in drug trafficking and gawd knows what they do here.

We could do with a good SPYING agency. They ain't it.

[Odin2005]

56. So we should have no intel agency?

:crazy:

The problem isn't the CIA, the problem is that it's stuffed with wing-nuts with agendas.

[DutchLiberal]

62. Like all other terrorist organizations, the CIA should be abolished.