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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:33 PM
Original message
Judge Sotomayor's "wise Latina" remark -
honestly, was there anyone here at DU who: was offended by it, found it to be racist, did not agree with it, or did not understand it, before reading it in context? And if so, please explain. What you thought she meant. How you were offended. Why you don't (didn't) agree with her.

It was clear to me from the first I heard it (out of context), and I couldn't agree with Judge Sotomayor more. Replace "Latina" with any minority or oppressed group, and the same holds true, imo. Experience plays a huge role in helping to develop wisdom, for everyone.

One of Judge Sotomayor's many responses to the incessant questioning about her wise Latina remark during last week's confirmation hearing: "I do believe that every person has an equal opportunity to be a good and wise judge, regardless of their background or life experiences."

That so many of the conservative old white privileged racist males remain clueless about the world around them is by choice, not because of a handicap, or a natural inferiority, as they would like you to believe was Judge Sotomayor's assertion. You don't necessarily have to live it to learn it. But as witnessed by the questioning last week, you can surely choose to ignore it.

For anyone who hasn't had the opportunity, here are three paragraphs from her 2001 address to the 'Raising the Bar' symposium at the UC Berkeley School of Law (the full address can be found http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2009/05/26_sotomayor.shtml">here.):

'In our private conversations, Judge Cedarbaum has pointed out to me that seminal decisions in race and sex discrimination cases have come from Supreme Courts composed exclusively of white males. I agree that this is significant but I also choose to emphasize that the people who argued those cases before the Supreme Court which changed the legal landscape ultimately were largely people of color and women. I recall that Justice Thurgood Marshall, Judge Connie Baker Motley, the first black woman appointed to the federal bench, and others of the NAACP argued Brown v. Board of Education. Similarly, Justice Ginsburg, with other women attorneys, was instrumental in advocating and convincing the Court that equality of work required equality in terms and conditions of employment.'

'Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life.'

'Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable. As Judge Cedarbaum pointed out to me, nine white men on the Supreme Court in the past have done so on many occasions and on many issues including Brown.'
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Let's be honest--very few conservative pundits ACTUALLY thought it was racist.
They just saw it as an opportunity to smear Sotomayor, Obama, and minorities in general. A lame opportunity, but an opportunity nonetheless.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. CORRECT
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. No need for me in this thread... carry on.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. I continue to be shocked
by the racism and sexism that is rampant in the news, and even here on DU by some. I know how I feel about things and, too often, wrongly assume that everyone with a clear head feels the same.

You are correct. It was a lame opportunity to smear minority groups. I guess it concerns me that the average American might buy into it.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Just had to rec this...!
:thumbsup:

:hug::hi:
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. Why, thank you, bliss.
How have you been? Anything new with PP? :hi:
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. I'm good, how are you...?
:pals:

I sent in my volunteer application, last week!
Hoping to hear back (re: an orientation date)to get started.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. I found it hard to watch the confirmation for the sheer *Blah blah blah* factor
But I reminded myself that if they could not find a serious skeleton after all of that digging, she probably didn't have one. You're right to point out that the Repubs pushed it as a superiority issue rather than using experiences better.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. It really was hard to watch -
embarrassing, actually. They made a concerted effort to create a squirm factor where none existed. They did a great job, though - of making us squirm for them.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. She said your life experience will help you on the job.
lol
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
34. Yep.
But there are those who will insist that she said your skin color, or gender, will help.
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NYMountaineer Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'll go out on a limb.
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 11:42 PM by NYMountaineer
She could've expressed herself better. I agree with her in one sense; that minorities are likely to have different experiences and thus bring a different viewpoint to the table. However, sometimes it seems like people use the phrase "white male" pejoratively as if we're all a bunch of elitists. I'm not saying that she was doing this, but the connotation exists.

However, I can't say that I was offended by it. I've got a reputation for being politically incorrect, myself, but I know an insult when I see one, and this wasn't one.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Ooooh - you guys are getting better making your language sound more mainstream!
Congrats - I can't wait to see version 3.0!
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NYMountaineer Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Bwa ha ha! Are you suggesting I'm some sort of Freeper disruptor?
I'm just giving my two cents and offering a Devil's Advocate view.

I want to see her confirmed as much as anyone else here, and I think the repubs have made a real joke of the whole process.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Until you reach 500 posts or so, yer guilty until proven innocent...
...it sucks, but we've all been through it when we ourselves were newbies. Trial by fire and all that.

Judging by your cavalier attitude, I'm thinking yer OK. A real disruptor would be more defensive...
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NYMountaineer Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. That's the way with political boards.
You gotta roll with the punches until you establish yourself. Mostly I've felt very welcome here, however.

To tell the truth, as I've explained on one or two other threads, I used to be one of the Freeper types. I've abandoned them and now count myself a proud Obama supporter. The way that a lot of the Repubs have been acting lately, I'm getting more and more embarassed to have even been associated with them. More than that, even, I feel very angry with the Repubs, because I was tricked into supporting an agenda that's got America between a rock and a hard place. Their contempt for the average working American is so palpable, I'm amazed how I could've mistaken them in the first place, now.

However, I assure you, I'm not here to disrupt. Disagreements will always arise, but it isn't my intention to cause trouble.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I'm not an ex-conservative, but there are plenty here like you...
...the longer you're here, the more you'll meet.

Absolutely nothing to be ashamed--frankly, it's rather admirable. Even if I realized that there were serious flaws in my political stance, I'm not so sure I could admit to MYSELF that my core beliefs were wrong, much less to other people.
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NYMountaineer Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Thank you for your kind welcome.
And take heart, for this means that other Freepers can be reformed, as well.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Oh, and welcome to DU.
:hi:
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Consider the audience -
she was speaking at Boalt. It's probably the most liberal law school in the country.

Her language was right on, considering all the factors involved...........................
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NYMountaineer Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Oh, no, she's definitely handled herself exceptionally.
I have no problem with her. As I said, I was just going out on a limb to offer another viewpoint.

I wish her all the best, and rejoice in the pundits weeping over the issue.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Good,
and welcome to DU...............



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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. As a white woman who's had her share of
complicated experiences in this old white guys' world, I would far prefer my fate to be decided by a wise Latina woman than a constipated old white guy.

She and I may not have anything in common in terms of our experiences (although, in reality, that's not true), but I would be thankful that a person of experience, shaped and formed by the richness of what she went through, of what she's had to learn, would be viewing my case and seeing it with eyes that can take in far more than the words before her.

This concept already exists in the law, although those GOPigs who worked so hard - and failed - to put a dent in the dignity and intellectual power of Judge Sotomayor were too stupid to recognize it.

It's called "judicial notice," and what it says, essentially, is that it is not necessary to enter into evidence, and to meet all the evidentiary standards, of certain facts that are so well-known, or recognizable, or common sense - for instance, there is no need to enter into the record that Sunday, July 19, 2009 occurred in the twenty-first century - that it goes without saying.

Sotomayor's wealth of experience gives her an added depth in all her gifts that she brings to the Supreme Court.

I can't WAIT to see her there. My prediction is that, in time, as she acclimates herself and finds her sea legs, Justice Sotomayor will rip Tonio Scalia a brand new one, legally and socially speaking.

She's going to be his worst nightmare come to life. I hope he's still chainsmoking, and I hope Clarence "Frogman" Thomas is still fat................................
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. Often we're discussing things we haven't really read - thank you!
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Puzzler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
18. Remember too... that this was the "best" they could come up with.
Be very sure that the GOP and their minions spent many thousands of man-hours sifting though everything Sotomayor wrote or said ever. And I mean EVER!

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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Exactly: they have two things on her, neither of which disqualifies her.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
45. Imagine if we put that much time into
investigating Sessions or Graham? They are holding Judge Sotomayor to standards that they themselves can't begin to live up to. And she has sailed through brilliantly.

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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
20. It is the experience of this wise old white male: two things are certain about Justice Sotomayor
At some point she will disappoint those who supported her and at some point she will surprise those who opposed her.

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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
46. Ah, yes. To be human.
I'm a bit anxious to find out where she stands on women's reproductive rights. She is Catholic, so there is a little room for doubt. But the democratic leaders all seem to be confident about what her position will turn out to be.

So my fingers are crossed. I like everything I've seen and heard from her so far and really can't imagine that her sensibilities regarding abortion will be contrary to her progressive ideals.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
26. Why don't we just say this...
A full sized person, with the richness of their experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a midget who hasn't lived that life.
A straight man with the richness of his experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a gay man who hasn't lived that life.


It is saying that because she is latino and a women that she is a better judge. If a white man said that because he is a white man that he is a better judge, it would be denounced by everyone.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Except she didn't say that. Geebus, how many times does this have to be explained.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. She said exactly that
I just read the speech.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Nope. She didn't Read it again.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. It is fairly clear
"Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."

She mentions "a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases". Then she states that she disagrees, because she thinks a latina women will more often reach a better conclusion.

It is even more damning when taken in context of the speech.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Could you be any more obtuse?
The entire human race will have more experiences (that build wisdom and character) than the average privileged white American male. It is not about his skin color or his gender. It is about the conditions under which he has been predisposed to live.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Could you be anymore racist and bigoted?
You both are saying that whites are inferior as judges because they lack the experiences (read: wisdom and Character) of non-whites. That is very racist. Just because you believe your bigotry doesn't make it valid.

It is absolutely about skin color and you and Sotomayor are making it about skin color. The whole quote revolves around race and gender.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Me, huh?
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 12:44 PM by Control-Z
Nice try.

No one said that whites are inferior. However, there are some who don't have a very accurate view of the world. Sessions, Graham, Bush, Bush Jr., Rove, Cheney... The list goes on. Are you honestly arguing that these men and the many others like them have good judgment? Seriously? Somewhere along the line their development was arrested. So what caused them to become shallow, angry men? Please, tell me.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. who said anything about a privileged white American male?
Do you think that my life, for example, has been more privileged than that of Desi Arnaz Jr. or Charlie Sheen's for two examples? All you are saying is that there's nothing bigoted about what she said because it is true. White men really do suck. Especially since she didn't say average, she said all. "A latina woman (even one who finishes last in her law school class) with the richness of her experience will more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male (even one who finishes at the top of his class) who hasn't lived that life."

It's excusable only because it was really just meant to say to a group of Latinas "Go Latinas. We rule!!" It should have been said without feeling the need to add "and white men drool!!"

But I just love how the progressive tribe insists on denigrating the integrity or the intelligence of anybody who does not see things their way. It must have something to do with the richness of the experience of being holier than thou.
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Jester Messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Nope, you share an ethnicity and gender with Dick Cheney.
Obviously you (and I) must share his background and worldview, and be a member of his sinister cabal. Booga-booga!! :sarcasm: :shrug:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. LOL. I'm sorry. I don't teach remedial English reading any more. n/t
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Klukie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. Did you miss the word hope ...
in the context of the quote? I think that one single word changes the whole intent. It plays more to an expectation than it does a certainty.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. I saw it there
It doesn't change the underlying point. Which is that she believes that one ethnicity is superior over another.

Until she unequivocally denounces that statement the intent of them can't be denied.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
28. I thought it was sloppy and a bit on the snotty side, but hardly something that would disqualify her
Let's be serious: everyone has biases. Those who don't admit this are either so full of themselves that the proverbial butter wouldn't melt in their mouths or are lying through their teeth. Sadly, though, we live in a world where seemingly everyone is clamoring for black-and-white simplicity, and we have to somehow chart our way through these filthy waters.

Judges swear an oath to be impartial. It's a stance very few can truly achieve, but a fair number can approximate, and that's all we really can expect of our fellow humans: to try. Life experiences tend to give one insight, but it's not always good insight, whether the life is one of ease or one of struggle.

Obama similarly made a bit of a blunder by using the word "empathy". The word means to be able to feel another's experience from his/her vantage point. Strictly defined, it is a fairly good measure for an impartial judge to be able to feel each party's situation. The connotations are dangerous, though, because they smack of sympathizing with the weaker party. The weaker party may not be in the legal right in the situation, and justice MUST side with what is legal.

Being your basic asshole caucasian, the quote first struck me as a flat-footed and tone-deaf bit of self-congratulation. My first reaction was a mild wince, hoping that there wasn't more of the like to be trotted out by the trogs to paint her as a bleeding-heart bolshevik. Whatever. She was among friends and she was letting her hair down; the fact that caucasians were blithely dismissed as generally less emotionally intuitive just comes with the territory. We suck; I accept that. Seriously, it's the lot of those who enjoy unfair sway over society to be depicted as cold and calculated, and regardless of the change I've tried to be part of over my life, I'm sure I've benefited mightily merely by dint of being white.

Still, it was sloppy, and we're not casting for some day-player here; this is a major supporting role in a long-running sitcom. They're to be held to higher standards.

In the end, she had two off-the-cuff comments that caused her some grief, but the fact that there weren't more shows that she's well within the bounds of reasonable fairness.

As for your test of "replace 'latina" with any minority or oppressed group...", that's BIGOTED. The very statement betrays a belief that all oppressed minorities are ethically superior. I do not feel that any particular oppressed group is morally superior to caucasians. Suckitude and assholism are broad-spectrum afflictions, just as decency and fairness are. Get over it: it's not just raving nazis who get itchy hearing things like this; some of us middle-aged liberals who've spent our lives in various capacities trying to correct the ills of the past get a bit annoyed at being expected to not merely ignore the odd politically correct slight here and there, but to vehemently concur that they never existed at all.

So no, it didn't hurt or offend me, it was a twinge of irritation that another person on my side left us open to reproach. No big deal; like much in life, it was a marginal thing, but it was a bit cloying in an insipid kind of way. She's auditioning for a professional gig, and that was amateur hour.

Tweaky for me, but red meat for the trogs.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
38. Not offended, but I didn't think it was "wise" way of expressing herself.


Fortunately, she clarified herself.


"I want to state upfront, unequivocally and without doubt: I do not believe that any ethnic, racial or gender group has an advantage in sound judging," she said. "I do believe every person has an equal opportunity to be a good and wise judge, regardless of their background or life experience."

and

"The words I chose, taking the rhetorical flourish, it was a bad idea," she said. "I do understand that there are some who have read this differently, and I understand why they might have concern."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/14/politics/main5157777.shtml
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
39. I had no trouble with it, and I'm latina.
I made a comment earlier, that the important thing was that she wasn't a latina arrepentida.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. I was disappointed
that she was forced to reword her sentiment, ad nauseum. However, given the forum, and the fact that the vultures were hungry, with such slim pickings, she performed admirably. I believe she has every right to be laughing all the way to the bank, so to speak.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. The british have the right attitude.
I don't know how they do it, but they have a way of standing by their words if there was no insult intended. Besides, why are white male Republicans getting their panties in a bunch since the comment has nothing to do with them?
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
41. K&R
:kick:
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