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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:13 PM
Original message
You don't have to be Einstein to know that Socialism is the best way...
...but Einstein in fact was openly and fully dedicated to the ideal of Socialism.

He wrote the opening piece for the Socialist magazine "Monthly Review". Here's an excerpt that (I think) fits into quote guidelines, with a link to the full article.


Why Socialism?
by Albert Einstein
http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einstein.php
This essay was originally published in the first issue of Monthly Review (May 1949).


"Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is."

"Let us first consider the question from the point of view of scientific knowledge. It might appear that there are no essential methodological differences between astronomy and economics: scientists in both fields attempt to discover laws of general acceptability for a circumscribed group of phenomena in order to make the interconnection of these phenomena as clearly understandable as possible. But in reality such methodological differences do exist."

http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einstein.php
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. so what?
there is this assumption that geniuses (especially scientists) have some sort of special ability to decide on issues like this. throughout history i have seen zero evidence that the world works this way. it's essentially an 'argument from authority' fallacy. there are people who are genius' in a scientific field but hold completely ridiculous political views. if i want to know about theory of special relativity etc. i look to einstein. if i want to look at complexity and chaos i look to feynman. i look to neither for political knowledge or wisdom. in fact, i think ivory tower'ism is a positive trait when it comes to things like these men studied, but a detriment when dealing with "the people thang" which politics is ultimately about.

also, when einstein had these ideas, socialism hadn't yet been proven the miserable, soul crushing, murderous failure that it was. it's one thing to be for socialism BEFORE the proof of numerous socialist regimes and their pogroms, horrendous economic failures, and murderous tendencies came to light.

einstein, as a scientist, would at least be subject ot looking at evidence, same not available then but in abundant supply NOW as to the miserable failures of socialism.
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dwp6577 Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. but maybe some relative level of socialism is better than pure capitalism...
or the drive to reach it, which is where we (USA) are currently, oligopolies in power, controlling governments, controlling the message, keeping workers down!

Aren't there some scandinavian countries doing pretty well with some relative level of socialism...

I though his essay was wonderful and he called it pretty accurately 1/2 a century ago...

In summary, relax before you blow an o-ring paulsby :)

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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. well of course
but there is no country on earth that HAS "pure capitalism". god knows we don't. singapore and hong kong have much less regulated capitalism than we do. and hong kong has done VERY VERY well btw. i just deride this "well if einstein says it it must be true" attitude, especially in regards to politics and economic systems. he isn't the all knowing wizard of oz. and he was speaking in a time when we didn't know what we know now - that socialism turned out to be a miserable failure. theories are great, but real world results matter.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. But Singapore and Hong Kong have superior public health care systems.
Singapore also seems to have some problems with human rights that you want to associate with socialism. How do you explain that?

BTW, have you heard about Iceland?

I'm thinking you underestimate how smart Einstein was.

--imm
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. most countries have superior public health care systems
that's not an argument for SOCIALISM. it's an argument for socialized medicine. there is a huge *(to put it mildly) difference.

i have no doubt that einstein was painfully smart. there are all sorts of painfully smart scientists who support all sorts of lousy social and economic policy. thank GOD we do not have an oligarchy of intellectuals. that would be as bad, or arguably worse , than an oligarchy of the rich. having genius intelligence does not have a correlation with supporting the right politics and economic policies.

like i said, i know many who accept this argument from authoritah so to speak. let's just listen to the genius physicists wank about economic systems . lol

also note again, that when einstein was spouting we did not have the last 6 decades of EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE as to the mass suckitude of socialism.

evidence matters. scientists (good ones) certainly know that. not that all scientists are honest with evidence. look at margaret mead.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Never mind that socialism has STILL not yet been proven the
miserable, soul crushing, murderous failure you think it has. Soviet communism, yes. Socialism, no.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. lol
how many failures do you need before you accept it's a failure.

how many scores of millions of dead people?

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Examples, please.
Not of communist dictatorships. Socialism.
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cemaphonic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. yeah, Socialism is such an ill-defined broad term, it is almost impossible to discuss meaningfully.
There is a pretty wide gulf between Sweden and the Great Leap Forward, after all.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Oh please, it is all in the way you use it.
If history had benign socialist rulers and tyrant capitalist rulers you would be bleating just the opposite.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. lol bleating
right . if on;y the socialist rulers had been better people, the system that failed every time would magickally work.

nice fundamentalist reasoning. iow, evidence doesn't matter.

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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. There you go again bleating like the typical socialist hater
:eyes:
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. there you go ignoring evidence like the typical creationist fundamentalist
hth
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. How many has capitalism killed since 1800?
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-21-09 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
39. After the enmployment check are gone socialsm will become a viable form of government here in the US
No one will be able to get new jobs with 20 % out of work and the food banks will be out of food. There will be a big surge towards socialism like during the Depression Or there will be a revolt all about the country.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Who do you look to, for political knowledge or wisdom? n/t
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 01:59 PM by Uncle Joe
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Your view of what socialism is seems a bit myopic.
Western Europe, particularly Scandinavia, is largely socialistic, and not subject to "pogroms, horrendous economic failures, and murderous tendencies".

--imm
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. What do you look to?
It appears you can't tell the difference between socialism and communism, and I would bet you couldn't come up with the axioms of a free market either. If socialism is such a failure, why do all except one of the advanced nations have some variant of socialized medical care? If it is such a failure, why do people want government services like police, fire, mail delivery, urban planning, roads and their maintenance, and public transportation?

Einstein was able to think, as could Bertrand Russell. They both came to well deliberated positions that socialism had positive aspects that should be tried, and so they adopted that mindset. Now here you come along, and confuse well thought out argument with 'argument from authority' and badmouth "ivory tower'ism". I know you don't really believe your own bullshit, because when it comes to your own personal medical care, I suspect you want someone from the highest echelons of the ivory tower to treat your malady.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. Einstein in unique in that he saw theu conventional views and changed the paradigm
Of course just because Einstein was a socialist does not mean it's automatically true. But had you ever heard about that Einstein? Has that been on TV? Was it in your high school curriculum? Ever wonder why not?

Although Einstein was not god (nor did he believe in any kind of personal god or even any kind of impersonal intelligence), still, Einstein cannot be lumped with either "academics" or "scientists". All the scientists, academic or otherwise, were completely beholden to the "known facts" of (Newtonian) physics.

Most people, including experts in economics and political science, are as indoctrinated into the capitalist system as 19th century physicists were to Newtonian Mechanics.

Two standard stock lines of capitalist propaganda are:

1. There is No Alternative (TINO) and
2. Socialism was (past tense, as in 'there is none today') a murderous failure (which is conflating Soviet Totalitarianism with Social Democracy)

therefore:

There is No Alternative.

NEWSFLASH: There are LOTS of alternatives. Lots in current implementation (think Sweden, Norway, Central America - where the CIA has not conducted bloody coups or installed right-wing dictatorships - , the United States Military - prior to the Bush/privatization era - and countless other examples of alternative systems. There are PLENTY of Alternatives.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Socialism done smartly by people who can read spread sheets is the best system
I think it has gotten a bad rap by all the experiments with socialism that did not rely on hard headed calculations.

But if you ask what system is winning in the world -- it's obviously China's. We owe them trillions; they don't owe us trillions.

And make no mistake about it; despite the propaganda you read here, China is very much still socialist -- or socialist market economy -- as they put it, which means the central government and local cooperatives own the means of production, but prices are used to allocate many resources and products. I've had to work in the guts of the system and it is very, very socialist at its core.

It's not at all what people think it is over here.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. China is State Capitalism / Crony Capitalism
State Monopoly Capitalism, enforced at gunpoint. News stories of late have suggested that large masses of Chinese have realized and are angry at their brutal exploitation.

It turns out there is ONE thing worse than a Communist Totalitarian Military Dictatorship - a Capitalist Totalitarian Military Dictatorship!
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Einstein is admirable for socialism, but more so for his pacifism.
I must confess that the foreign policy of the United States since the end of hostilities often irresistibly reminds me of the foreign policy of Germany under Kaiser Wilhelm II. I know that others have independently recognized this painful analogy.

It is characteristic of the military mentally to consider material factors, such as atomic bombs, strategic bases, arms of every description, raw material resources, and the like as important while, at the same time, regarding man himself, his thoughts, and aspirations as quite inferior. In its theoretical approach the military mentality bears some resemblance to Marxism. In both, man is minimized as being merely "capacity" or "manpower." Under the impact of this kind of thinking, the goals which normally determine human aspirations simply disappear. To fill the gap, the military mentality makes the possession of "naked power" a goal in itself. This surely is one of the strangest delusions to which man can fall victim.

I condemn the military mentality of our time just as you do. Indeed, I have been a pacifist all my life and regard Gandhi as the only truly great political figure of our age.

There is enough money, enough work, and enough food, provided we organize our resources according to our necessities rather than be slaves to rigid economic theories or traditions. Above all, we must not permit our minds and our activities to be diverted from constructive work by preparations for another war. I agree with the great American Benjamin Franklin, who said that there never was a good war or a bad peace.

I am not only a pacifist but a militant pacifist. I am willing to fight for peace. Nothing will end war unless the peoples themselves refuse to go to war.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. And it is to be noted, by his quote, that HE differentiated Marxism
from socialism.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. The word "socialism" has a PR problem. Especially among Fundies
and righties, they have been brainwashed to believe our founding
fathers repudiated Socialism when they made us a Republic. I can
remember hearing people like T. Lott reminding us that we are
a Republic not a Democracy. I can quip but jokingly Iran is
a Republic. Yes a Republic is a Democracy but it is all in the
emphasis.

It is true at the Founding, the Leaders considered the French
Democracy but decided against it in favor of a Republic.

In a Social Democracy Liberty and Equality are important values.
Likewise with a Republic.

Social Democracy more weight is given to value of Equality while
in a Republic more weight is given to Freedom. From earliest times
Freed here, referred to financial freedom.

Equality meant possible re-distribution of wealth.
Freedom mean--it is your money to do with as you please and most
importantly it is yours and you owe nothing to anyone.

Then the Communist Scare in 40s and 50s pulled a pall over
the word socialism.

I have no problem myself, I understand the stark difference between
a social democracy and Communism. I am explaining this so we
can better understand others and find ways to communicate with
meaning.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. A way
Not the best way.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. This may be printed in its totality according to the Einstein foundation- here it is
and many other sources;Why Socialism?
by Albert Einstein

This essay was originally published in the first issue of Monthly Review (May 1949).

Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is.

Let us first consider the question from the point of view of scientific knowledge. It might appear that there are no essential methodological differences between astronomy and economics: scientists in both fields attempt to discover laws of general acceptability for a circumscribed group of phenomena in order to make the interconnection of these phenomena as clearly understandable as possible. But in reality such methodological differences do exist. The discovery of general laws in the field of economics is made difficult by the circumstance that observed economic phenomena are often affected by many factors which are very hard to evaluate separately. In addition, the experience which has accumulated since the beginning of the so-called civilized period of human history has—as is well known—been largely influenced and limited by causes which are by no means exclusively economic in nature.

For example, most of the major states of history owed their existence to conquest. The conquering peoples established themselves, legally and economically, as the privileged class of the conquered country. They seized for themselves a monopoly of the land ownership and appointed a priesthood from among their own ranks. The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior.

But historic tradition is, so to speak, of yesterday; nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called "the predatory phase" of human development. The observable economic facts belong to that phase and even such laws as we can derive from them are not applicable to other phases. Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future.

Second, socialism is directed towards a social-ethical end. Science, however, cannot create ends and, even less, instill them in human beings; science, at most, can supply the means by which to attain certain ends. But the ends themselves are conceived by personalities with lofty ethical ideals and—if these ends are not stillborn, but vital and vigorous—are adopted and carried forward by those many human beings who, half unconsciously, determine the slow evolution of society.

For these reasons, we should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.

Innumerable voices have been asserting for some time now that human society is passing through a crisis, that its stability has been gravely shattered. It is characteristic of such a situation that individuals feel indifferent or even hostile toward the group, small or large, to which they belong. In order to illustrate my meaning, let me record here a personal experience. I recently discussed with an intelligent and well-disposed man the threat of another war, which in my opinion would seriously endanger the existence of mankind, and I remarked that only a supra-national organization would offer protection from that danger. Thereupon my visitor, very calmly and coolly, said to me: "Why are you so deeply opposed to the disappearance of the human race?"

I am sure that as little as a century ago no one would have so lightly made a statement of this kind. It is the statement of a man who has striven in vain to attain an equilibrium within himself and has more or less lost hope of succeeding. It is the expression of a painful solitude and isolation from which so many people are suffering in these days. What is the cause? Is there a way out?

It is easy to raise such questions, but difficult to answer them with any degree of assurance. I must try, however, as best I can, although I am very conscious of the fact that our feelings and strivings are often contradictory and obscure and that they cannot be expressed in easy and simple formulas.

Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting, strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society. It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior.

The abstract concept "society" means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society—in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence—that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is "society" which provides man with food, clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of the many millions past and present who are all hidden behind the small word “society.”

It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished—just as in the case of ants and bees. However, while the whole life process of ants and bees is fixed down to the smallest detail by rigid, hereditary instincts, the social pattern and interrelationships of human beings are very variable and susceptible to change. Memory, the capacity to make new combinations, the gift of oral communication have made possible developments among human being which are not dictated by biological necessities. Such developments manifest themselves in traditions, institutions, and organizations; in literature; in scientific and engineering accomplishments; in works of art. This explains how it happens that, in a certain sense, man can influence his life through his own conduct, and that in this process conscious thinking and wanting can play a part.

Man acquires at birth, through heredity, a biological constitution which we must consider fixed and unalterable, including the natural urges which are characteristic of the human species. In addition, during his lifetime, he acquires a cultural constitution which he adopts from society through communication and through many other types of influences. It is this cultural constitution which, with the passage of time, is subject to change and which determines to a very large extent the relationship between the individual and society. Modern anthropology has taught us, through comparative investigation of so-called primitive cultures, that the social behavior of human beings may differ greatly, depending upon prevailing cultural patterns and the types of organization which predominate in society. It is on this that those who are striving to improve the lot of man may ground their hopes: human beings are not condemned, because of their biological constitution, to annihilate each other or to be at the mercy of a cruel, self-inflicted fate.

If we ask ourselves how the structure of society and the cultural attitude of man should be changed in order to make human life as satisfying as possible, we should constantly be conscious of the fact that there are certain conditions which we are unable to modify. As mentioned before, the biological nature of man is, for all practical purposes, not subject to change. Furthermore, technological and demographic developments of the last few centuries have created conditions which are here to stay. In relatively densely settled populations with the goods which are indispensable to their continued existence, an extreme division of labor and a highly-centralized productive apparatus are absolutely necessary. The time—which, looking back, seems so idyllic—is gone forever when individuals or relatively small groups could be completely self-sufficient. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that mankind constitutes even now a planetary community of production and consumption.

I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor—not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules.

In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production—that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods—may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.

For the sake of simplicity, in the discussion that follows I shall call “workers” all those who do not share in the ownership of the means of production—although this does not quite correspond to the customary use of the term. The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist.

The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. Insofar as the labor contract is “free,” what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists' requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.

Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society.

This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.

The situation prevailing in an economy based on the private ownership of capital is thus characterized by two main principles: first, means of production (capital) are privately owned and the owners dispose of them as they see fit; second, the labor contract is free. Of course, there is no such thing as a pure capitalist society in this sense. In particular, it should be noted that the workers, through long and bitter political struggles, have succeeded in securing a somewhat improved form of the “free labor contract” for certain categories of workers. But taken as a whole, the present day economy does not differ much from “pure” capitalism.

Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an “army of unemployed” almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers' goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

Nevertheless, it is necessary to remember that a planned economy is not yet socialism. A planned economy as such may be accompanied by the complete enslavement of the individual. The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?

Clarity about the aims and problems of socialism is of greatest significance in our age of transition. Since, under present circumstances, free and unhindered discussion of these problems has come under a powerful taboo, I consider the foundation of this magazine to be an important public service.





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cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. Seriously, how many people on DU actually want socialism?
You'd think with all the Pro-socialism threads on DU that it is quite a few but I'm guessing, just like the rest of the U.S. the percentage is very small. Anyone know how to make a poll on this with three options: What do you prefer: Socialism, Capitalism, a mixture of both?
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Me.
It's always a mixture. It depends on who controls capital, the means of production and distribution. What "pure" capitalism really is, is a method of externalizing costs.

--imm
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. A mixture of both, but heavily weighted toward the socialist side.
If I'm going to have some all-powerful distant bureaucracy controlling the major part of my life, I prefer it to be the government I helped elect instead of some corporation that sees me as a source of revenue and to which I have no input.

Because THAT is where is really is divided - not between capitalism and socialism, but between corporatism and socialism.
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cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I see your argument...the only thing that scares me with this is...
how much my life is going to suck when the party I voted for loses in the election at some point in the future and they start fucking us over big time. At least with capitalism I feel like I have more of an opportunity to choose my own destiny no matter who is in charge.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Perhaps you could share your definition of 'socialism'.
There is nothing in my definition that implies it is an oppressive state - and capitalism is NOT a political state. Capitalism does not = democracy.

I have been a democratic socialist most of my adult life. In a social democracy, the government controls the infrastructure - including roads, transportation, communications, healthcare, welfare, education, and major resource distribution (I see no reason for private corporations to control our energy supplies) - and the government answers to the voters. The government does not run the local grocers, or bookstore. It doesn't tell you where you must work, or where you must live. You can better control your own destiny because the government will give the education you need to do what you want to do - you don't need to go into debt for 20 years to pay for a doctorate degree. Capitalism actually limits your control of your own destiny to what you can afford to pay.

Additionally, there would actually be less threat from the fascists in a social democracy because the power of the corporations is extremely limited. No more myth of corporate personhood. In fascism, society is organized as a corporation. In socialism, society is organized as a cooperative.



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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. That would not be a scientific poll
especially if you asked the questions that way.

"What do you prefer: Socialism, Capitalism, a mixture of both?"

Most people don't know what socialism is - they don't even understand what capitalism is.
You would have to ask questions like,

"Do you think important, necessary things like police protection, fire protection, and health care should be left to the private sector, or that they should be taxpayer funded not-for-profit functions?"
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. There are better ways than Socialism....
Look up Distributism for a start.

In any situation rather than looking at B in preference to A, always find at least a third alternative to either. Or as John Michael Greer put it:

"Oversimplifying reality into two rigid categories is probably the most pervasive source of failed thinking in the modern world. One of these days I should post something about the Druid notion of ternary thinking; the basic practice is that when you encounter any classification of the world into two and only two sides (we call this a binary), think of a third option that isn't simply a compromise between them. With practice you get very good at noticing the blind spots that make binary thinking seem to make sense. Yes, you can then go on to look for a fourth, fifth, etc.!"

I WOULD URGE EVERYONE here to read 'What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?' by Philip Agre http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html . There is tremendous insight there.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. second on the link and reommend the Agre article --must read! n/t
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
26. But the key point being that he wasn't a Marxist. One can be a socialist yet not be a Marxist.
Don't try to argue with certain DUers about it, though, they will call you a reactionary tool.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
27. I have yet to find a satisfying answer how captialism will continue to grow given a finite Earth
In a steady state environment what mechanism will counter balance ever more concentrated distribution of weath? Neo-feudalism is going to suck for 99.9% of the population.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. You obviously haven't read the prophet Napoleon Hill's masterpiece,
"Think and Grow Rich". Simply the wishing makes it so.
:sarcasm:


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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
35. It's amazing
how clearly Einstein describes exactly the problems we are still struggling with sixty years after he wrote this. K&R
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
36. I think it is simpler than people are saying
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 05:25 PM by Kid Dynamite
Social-ism starts, literally, with a fervent desire to re-allocate land in a more just manner, a call for everyone to be given a fair(er) share of society's bounty, a call to end enforced impoverishment and immiseration from avbove. I would venture everyone who has commented on this thread -- and the vast majority of those at Democratic Undeground -- wants those things.

However, there is an different problem working here. Who *voted* for capitalism? Does it exist within a continuum of "good" and "bad" or is it a relationship betweem men as they produce and allocate their own livelihoods? Which boardroom dreamed up capitalism? Which army decided to impose it per se?

As everyone is no doubt aware, social systems are not created, implemented, or maintained on the basis of people wanting or desiring things to be a certain way. That is not a possible motive force because, among other reasons, you are constrained by how things ARE. No matter how much a merchant of the 11th century may have wanted, no matter how much he agitated, how many people he rallied, or how grand his vision, he was not going to bring about capitalism. Less was he going to bring about capitalism as the predominant mode of economic activity in the world.

Yet the debate on this thread turns on the entirely unrealistic premise that it is simply a matter of what we want or perhaps a question of how we judge various "systems" presented to us pre-made and pre-packaged as "alternatives". Alternatives implies that there is, well, some alternate possibility. If this were actually so in such a direct manner, why would anyone be agitating politically on the internet? Harking back to my first paragraph, surely people would simply "choose" (or vote for) those things they desire..since there is no possible way there is not a super-majority who support a platform of greater equality for all.

Anyone who would like to approach the question of socialism must at least acknowledge the considerations above, and it seems that no one has grappled with them long and hard enough to produce an intelligible resolution.
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