Michael Vick did his time (in full) and has been released from Federal custody

[DainBramaged]

should he be allowed to resume his football career?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/20/michael-vick-released-fro_n_241626.html

[sharesunited]

1. Sure! Just boycott whatever team hires him.

[Forkboy]

2. Legally, yes. Morally, no.

And yes, I realize there are others in sports who have done seriously messed up shit and still play. I would prefer they couldn't either. Vick does have the right to seek gainful employment, but if it was up to me it wouldn't be in the NFL. Getting arrested for weed, or even a DUI where no one was hurt, these are crimes that a player should be allowed to come back from afterwards.

But doing this to another living creature for fun? Sorry, go flip burgers.

[KamaAina]

3. Ouch! I need some heavy-duty brain bleach!

You might consider including a warning in the subject header. :puke:

[bluestateguy]

6. I know you don't like me

But thank you for posting that.

We need to be reminded of what that horrible man did.

[Forkboy]

Differences aside, I'm glad we stand together on this one.

[ZombieHorde]

17. I fully agree with your post.

Unfortunately, I believe Vick will be forgiven and defended very quickly by many football fans, but not necessarily DU football fans. I think most football fans like football more than they dislike dog torture.

Vick is an entertainer and few jobs are more important in our society than that.

[MadHound]

80. Yet don't forget that most fans are dog people

Any many watch the game with their fur friend also. I really doubt that football fans will forgive or forget on this one, which is why it's looking increasingly likely that Vick is going to the minor leagues, the UFL, where he will probably finish out his playing career. Besides, he's not going to be in any kind of football shape, not after time in prison and time at a halfway house.

[ZombieHorde]

93. I will take your word on this and say that I was wrong. nt

[texastoast]

29. That is so sad

Makes me feel Old Testament biblical.

What a horrible human being he is.

I suppose he has completed his "sentence." Too bad it wasn't far more severe.

And any team that puts him back to work should hear from all animal lovers. He should be cleaning kennels for the rest of his life.

[hlthe2b]

53. ditto and THANK you for bringing it back, however graphically

to what this is all about. Vick should NEVER be allowed to claim the macho football "hero" image that so many are anxious to bestow. Legally, yes, he has every right to work and even to play football. Morally? He will never be able to escape his premeditated cruelty, nor should he. Who is the monster?--not this horribly disfigured poor dog.

[proteus_lives]

95. Oh God.

:puke:

Now I want to break that motherfucker's knees all over again. But you're right, legally he can. If it were up to me I'd have "I abused animals for fun and profit" tattooed over every inch of his skin.

Sadly in life what a person gets and what they deserve are often two very different things. :mad:

[redqueen]

161. For fun? I thought it was for *profit*.

Which only makes it worse, IMO.

[bluestateguy]

4. By all means

If he wants to get together with some of his buddies and play a pickup game in a sandlot, I will not stand in their way.

[DefenseLawyer]

11. Is it your position that no one who has served time should be employed?

Or just Mr. Vick?

[Missy Vixen]

13. Considering the fact that NFL players are still looked at as community leaders

Mr. Vick needs to find a less prominent line of work.

[DefenseLawyer]

19. Ahhh so he can work

just only at a job you think he deserves. It would certainly be wrong to teach children that those who make poor choices and are punished can rehabilitate themselves and rejoin society. What a horrible message to send. Maybe everyone who has served time should have to wear a patch so we can make sure we shun them for the rest of their lives.

[bluestateguy]

23. Being an NFL player is a special privilege

Not a right.

He can go get a real job (though millions of us regular folks who did not commit felonies are having a hard time finding them these days).

[DefenseLawyer]

30. A special privilege?

No it's not. It's a job, a real job, with a paycheck and a boss and everything. Yes it is a job you can't have, but it is a job for those that are qualified to do it. I wouldn't say he has a "right" to play football, but he does have a "right" to work at whatever job someone wants to pay him for. When you buy a team you will be free not to hire him.

[Pharlo]

50. Well, how is Mr Vick not being allowed to play football for his

participation in dog fighting any different than an attorney or CPA not being able to practice professionally after serving time for embezzlement?

[DefenseLawyer]

52. Well to begin with, those professions require a license

and there are rules in place that establish what standards allow you to keep that license, rules that were in place at the time the embezzlement crime occurred. If a lawyer chooses to steal, he knows he will lose his license if he gets caught. There was not and is not any such provision in the federal dog fighting statute which was in place at the time of Mr. Vick's crime which limits what job a person convicted of the crime can hold upon release and there is certainly no license requirement for professional football players. We don't have ex post facto laws in this country, you can't wait until after someone commits a crime and is punished and then decide that the punishment wasn't harsh enough and pile more on. The league has requirements and they would be within their rights to ban him if they choose. However, if they choose not to ban him and he is offered a job there is nothing that should prevent them from entering into a contract with Mr. Vick for his services.

[Hard_Work]

194. ANY job is a privilege

And professional football player IS a real job. Don't you think that if he is able to once again become one of the top players in the league, it would mean a lot coming from a superstar telling kids what he did was wrong?

Millions of people who didn't commit felonies are having a hard time finding a job, because a job is not a right. Millions of people don't have the skills and/or qualifications to be an NFL qb. Vick does.

[Missy Vixen]

32. Did you get a look at the photo of a tortured pit bull above?

So, it's important to let him "rehabilitate", huh? The descriptions of what Michael Vick did to the animals in his care is more than disgusting. Here's a question: Would you let him spend unsupervised time with your children? With what we know about those who torture animals, it's a real possibility. Then again, this qualifies him to run for President, does it not?

Did you know that Mr. Vick's representatives were trying to work a deal with PETA as little as two months ago? PETA withdrew. The information I read in Advertising Age was that they were requesting Mr. Vick be tested for antisocial personality disorder as a condition of the agreement.

This man is a sociopath at best. This was a hell of a lot more than a "poor choice". A "poor choice" is one too many drinks at the local watering hole or deciding to skip out on paying for one's gas at the gas station. There is no compelling evidence that Mr. Vick has been rehabilitated, or is even sorry for what he did.

You've got to be joking.

[DefenseLawyer]

43. You need to write your Congressman

and lobby to have the sentences for dog fighting lengthened. Long before Mike Vick came along we had a federal law against dog fighting and gambling. The penalties were set out in the law. Vick violated that law, he admitted his guilt and was punished according to the penalties the law imposed at the time of the crime. He did his time. You may not think it was enough time, but really, too bad. You don't get to decide that certain people that you really don't like should be punished more harshly than the law allows.

[hyphenate]

86. I think one of the main questions

is whether people like Vick are capable of reform, or whether recidivism can be expected instead.

As far as many of us are concerned, Vick will never be trusted again, regardless of his time in prison. Personally--and this is solely my stand--I would rather trust a murderer than an animal abuser. Violating an animal's trust is an especially heinous crime, and a repugnant choice.

There are likely some who praise his performance on a football field for the same exact reason that many of us hate him--no moral code, and a demonstrative lack of conscience: who knew he would be evil enough to use that tact for such a cruel purpose?

Perhaps, Mr./Ms. Defense Attorney, you are preparing to hire on as Vick's new defense attorney as well as scoping things out at DU? For the few lawyers I've worked with, there is/was a limit on how unscrupulous their clients could be to work for them--of course, for those who are public defense attorneys, I guess there is little choice in the matter.

[okieinpain]

106. bad choice of words. so someone that's killed people is more trust

worthy then vick. dahmer vs vick. hmmmmm.

[Kalyke]

164. Dahmer got his start abusing animals.

Go "hmmmmmmmmmmm" yourself.

But, yes, I'd trust someone who killed someone in a fit of rage and has received drug and psychiatric counseling over an animal or child abuser.

Murderers can and have been rehabilitated. People who abuse innocents rarely are. Check out the recidivism rates on pedophilia if you don't believe me.

[hyphenate]

195. Fully in agreement with you

And I really DO think we need to raise the sentences for those who abuse/kill/torture or otherwise get some sort of thrill from hurting innocents. Perhaps we could arrange it so that criminals of this kind can spend a year at Abu Ghraib with Lyndy and the gang.

[okieinpain]

196. Check out the recidivism rates on pedophilia if you don't believe me.

why check that, what's the recidivism rate on people who fight dogs, that's what he was convicted on, dog fighting not pedophilia.

[DefenseLawyer]

126. No one said you can't hate him

You are free to hate as many people as you want. Make a list of people you hate and update it on a regular basis. Don't let me stand in the way of your hate. What you can't do is ignore the law and impose your own set of rules, after the fact, on people you hate. I'm not sure if that final paragraph is intended as an insult or humor or what. I'll assume it is supposed to insult me. I am not insulted. There is no one, NO ONE, who is so unscrupulous that they lose their right to counsel under the Constitution. Everyone deserves fair treatment, due process and a fair trial. If this concept seems wrong to you then you obviously don't believe in equal justice under the law. That's a shame, but you are certainly not the only person who believes himself to have the omnipotence to decide who deserves rights. Of course the ridiculous thing about this "insult" in this context is that Mr. Vick is not in need a "new defense attorney" in this case. He has served his time. Just because you hate him doesn't mean his case goes on forever.

[jaysunb]

155. Please stop making sense...

it's a waste of time w/ some of our more "righteous" bretheren... :evilfrown:

[Pharlo]

156. While you may disapprove of the stance being

defended by defenselawyer, he/she is NOT advocating for Mr. Vick so much as answering the LEGAL reasons why Mr Vick's dogfighting history will not stand up in a court of law.

While many of us may FEEL (and this MAY include defenselawyer) that Vick's actions SHOULD prevent him from future employment by the NFL, there are LEGAL reasons why this will not be possible under current law. defenselawyer is merely stating legal fact. Not defending Mr Vick's actions.

[ZombieHorde]

94. "those who make poor choices"

Stealing a car is a poor choice.

Torturing for pleasure is something else entirely.

[pecwae]

111. My god this post is disgusting!

"Poor choice" is floating checks. Knowingly and willingly torturing innocent living breathing creatures for fun and profit is NOT a "poor choice".

[SammyWinstonJack]

132. Poor choices? Seriously?

:wow:

[DefenseLawyer]

143. I'm not sure why that phrase bothers you folks

Are you suggesting that Mr. Vick's actions were not a choice that he made? Are you asserting that he was coerced in some way? Brainwashed? Hypnotized? By and large people go to prison because of choices they make. That doesn't minimize the nature of the crime or the horrible results. It is not my intention to minimize anything. However, we have a representative democracy in which we elect representative to make laws, including criminal laws. They did that- passed a law making dog fighting a federal crime and set out the penalties for it. Mr. Vick broke that law, admitted his guilt and was punished according to the penalties congress imposed. Several of you seem to think he should be burned with hot coffee, mauled by a dog or put in a cage, presumably because you love all living things. Fortunately you aren't in charge of our penal system.

[bluestateguy]

18. Oh, I'm all for him being employed

[proteus_lives]

96. I'd pay to see Judge throw a pot of hot coffee in his face.

:mad:

[okieinpain]

108. wow.... why stop there what about a foot or maybe just castrate him.

[emilyg]

37. I want him employed - just not

in NFL - no big $$$ for him.

[pampango]

107. Legally he should be allowed to work at any job he can find, as should any felon who has served

his time. We shouldn't have laws that restrict the employment of felons who are released after serving their time.

Some employers (schools, security agencies, others) may need to have regulations about the employment of felons, but that is a matter for each employer. If anything we should make sure that employers are not unnecessarily restricting the employment of ex-felons, not adding to those restrictions.

Whether the NFL, as an employer, should hire him is another question. The NFL has a fairly low standard in terms of how important one's character is compared to his athletic ability, but Vick may be pushing that standard pretty hard. If he is contrite (I haven't got a good feel for his attitude at this point, but I haven't really been paying attention much) and takes steps to redeem himself, he should get the chances. If he does the "only admit to what you absolutely have to admit to" tactic (a version of the "I'm a victim, somehow" approach), then the NFL should say goodbye.

[Obama2012]

137. I'm of the opinion that anybody convicted of animal cruelty should get life in prison

So, aside from a prison job, I don't think Vick should be employed (or free).

One day, he's going to hurt people.

[dysfunctional press]

140. fortunately, your opinion has nothing to do with the law of the land.

[Obama2012]

199. People who murder, rape, molest children or abuse animals should never get out

That shouldn't be a controversial opinion.

[dysfunctional press]

5. he should DEFINITELY be allowed to resume his career...

the fact that peta is against it just re-inforces that point.

[Forkboy]

10. Hmmm...peta not liking it vs torturing animals, and you choose torturing animals.

I'm getting all warm and fuzzy.

[dysfunctional press]

56. he's paid his fine and time for his crimes under the law.

[Forkboy]

59. And that changes nothing about what you said above.

You just came down on the side of animal torture because you don't like Peta.

[dysfunctional press]

63. "You just came down on the side of animal torture"...?

how so?

the guy has done his time and paid his fines- it's over.

why are you so prejudiced against rehabilitated ex-convicts who want to re-enter society?

but it's true that i have no need for the whack-a-doodles at peta.

[Forkboy]

65. How so? By taking Vick's side out of spite over PETA. Vick DID torture animals.

why are you so prejudiced against rehabilitated ex-convicts who want to re-enter society?

Why are you inventing strawmen to cover your torture apologia?

[dysfunctional press]

67. 'DiD' being the operative word here(at least you got the verb right).

and he DID complete the terms of his sentence to this point.

what part of that don't you understand?

when people finish their sentence- it's over and they go on with their lives according to the law.

and peta ain't the law.
thankfully.

[Forkboy]

70. You're desperate to change the topic from your own words.

I don't blame you. If I was so upset at a group that I decided torture was ok I'd try to dodge the words, too.

[dysfunctional press]

72. not at all.

i stand behind them.

you just don't seem to understand what it means when someone finishes their prison sentence. :shrug:

[msanthrope]

116. Not quite. Just because you served your sentence does not

mean you get to go on with your life....

Ask any sex offender. Just because they served their sentence does not mean they regain the right to work in any field of their choosing.

[DefenseLawyer]

123. And there is a law in place that places those limits on sex offenders

The is no such law in place that places any such limits on Mr. Vick as a result of his conviction. But apparently the rule of law only applies some of the time.

[msanthrope]

142. Virginia doesn't have laws about hiring felons for certain jobs?

And no laws or policy about employers who deny felons employment?


Leaving state law aside for a moment, are you suggesting that Vick's felonies are no bar to reinstatement in the NFL, and if in fact he were NOT reinstated, he would have a colorable Title VII complaint?

[DefenseLawyer]

146. Not at all

The NFL and the teams that comprise it are private employers who are free to set whatever criteria they choose for eligibility (assuming they aren't discriminating against a protected class) for their employees. The issue being debated here seems not to be whether the NFL should reinstate him or would be justified not to, but whether he should be denied the chance to work for them, even if the employer is offering him employment. Of course there is no legal basis to deny such an agreement, but that doesn't stop people from expressing their wishes and opinions to the contrary.

[msanthrope]

149. I asked if Virginia had laws about hiring felons, not the NFL. Could you

answer that question?

Because I seriously doubt that the NFL is going to rehire an admitted gambler who is currently under ANOTHER federal investigation for financial irregularities.

I'm interested in Mr. Vick's other options, based on both his state and federal felony convictions.

[dysfunctional press]

152. "I seriously doubt that the NFL is going to rehire an admitted gambler "

nfl players ARE allowed to gamble.

[msanthrope]

159. On illegal sports?

Seriously.

Are you claiming that the NFL allows its players to gamble on illegal sports?

[dysfunctional press]

163. if someone is convicted of it and does their time for it...

it's up to the nfl to decide for themselves.

probably part of why vick's ban wasn't made permanent.

[msanthrope]

174. No one doubts that. I just doubt your faulty logic that concludes

that gambling on an illegal sport is a felony that does not concern his employment in the NFL.

I also seriously doubt your blanket statements that "NFL players are allowed to gamble" without qualification, and that "Gambling isn't illegal."

[dysfunctional press]

179. that's not my logic, nor is it what i said.

and yes, nfl players ARE allowed to gamble, and LOTS of them go to vegas quite often to do so. it's EXTREMELY legal.

wake up and join the 21st century.

[msanthrope]

191. Below, I cite two articles that refute your assertion that players

in the NFL are allowed to gamble unfettered and without consequence.

Perhaps you could provide me with a link to NFL policy that contradicts the NFL commissioner?

[DefenseLawyer]

154. I am not an employment lawyer

nor am I from Virginia, but I have never heard of a state law specifically prohibiting private employers from hiring convicted felons. Obviously there are professions which require licensing, bonding, etc which could place specific restrictions, but other than that I would think there was no such law. One would certainly hope not, as felons have a hard enough time finding work after prison as it is.

[msanthrope]

169. Really, I'm surprised

that you've never had a client ask you what they were facing as a consequence of taking a felony plea.

In my state, you can't be in the health care field with a felony conviction. This includes jobs that don't require licensure. How does the state get away with this? Business licenses are a privilege, not a right.

[dysfunctional press]

139. as long as that field isn't related to the crime comitted...

and in this case, it isn't.

[msanthrope]

144. Gambling isn't related to employment in the NFL?

That's a new one to me.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that mutilating dogs has no bearing on one's ability to be in the NFL. Are you stating that gambling has no bearing?

I am assuming that you read the actual plea agreement, and the coverage of the sentencing hearing. Gambling, pursuant to running his corrupt enterprise, was discussed extensively--in fact, Vick got on the higher end of sentencing because the judge didn't think he came clean, fully, about his involvement in the gambling and other trafficking.

Currently, Vick is under further investigation for other financial irregularities. Are you claiming that should the NFL take that into account, Vick would have a TItle VII claim?

Somewhere, Pete Rose weeps.....

[dysfunctional press]

148. did he gamble on nfl games?

"Somewhere, Pete Rose weeps....."

probably over the fact that he was ignorant enough to bet on his own sport.

[msanthrope]

151. Ah--so gambling does have something to do with being an NFL

player?

I mean, otherwise, you would have answered my question, that I will repeat:

Are you suggesting that felonious conduct relating to gambling is of no importance to the NFL?

[dysfunctional press]

153. no it doesn't. you brought up pete rose.

that loser got in trouble for betting on his own sport.

athletes ARE allowed to gamble. it's not illegal.

[msanthrope]

158. My question, again....

Are you suggesting that felonious conduct in relation to gambling is not a concern for the NFL?

And as for the blanket legal statement "Gambling is not illegal," well, you must be joking.

The dogfighting was illegal.

Gambling ON it is illegal.

Profiting from it? Illegal!

Not reporting your winnings? Illegal!

Are you seriously claiming that betting on an illegal sport and evading your taxes is somehow "okay" per the NFL?

[dysfunctional press]

160. you keep changing the question.

IF vick is brought up on charges related to gambling would be the time to address that as an issue.

as it currently stands- he has served his time for the crimes he was convicted of, and those crimes have no bearing on his chosen career.

as to whether or not he'll be able to return to the nfl- that's an issue for them to decide, should a team decide that it's interested in offering him a contract.

personally, i have absolutely no problems with the idea of his returning to the nfl.

just to be clear.

[msanthrope]

173. I haven't changed the question--you just refuse to answer it.

As part of his plea agreement, Vick plead guilty to gambling on an illegal sport. It was an element in the charge of conspiracy, and in the set-up and running of his illegal dog-fighting operation....

Read the plea agreement. He's already plead guilty to gambling on an illegal sport....

[Kalyke]

166. There's actually no evidence that he's been rehabilitated.

[dysfunctional press]

180. is there evidence that he hasn't?

there IS evidence that he's completed his sentence and is a free man.

[Kalyke]

183. Considering the extremely high recidivism rate of animal abusers,

then I would have to go with, "Yes, there is tons of evidence he can't and won't be rehabilitated."

Go ahead, Google the recidivism rate. It can be as high as 100 percent.

[dysfunctional press]

185. and that has no bearing on anything about his career in football.

he has served and COMPLETED the sentence required of him for the crimes he was convicted of.

his slate is considered clean.

[Kalyke]

190. Just like people who rape children. Sure.

:eyes:

Because it's very well documented that people who torture animals then move to children and then onto adults.

Do you think he should be rehired to make millions had he molested a toddler? Because, in effect, he's done that. Molested a very innocent creature who could not defend itself against the likes of him.


He can work... I just don't think a torturer should get paid millions while good and decent people can't find work.

[flvegan]

49. Wow. Just, wow.

When are we getting the :shakeshead: smiley?

[dysfunctional press]

57. seeing as he's paid his fines and done his time under the law...

and since his crime had nothing to do with his profession...

why shouldn't he be allowed to resume his career, if the nfl allows it?

[flvegan]

66. How'd he fund those crimes?

[dysfunctional press]

75. you mean the crimes that he's paid the price required under the law for?

it doesn't matter under the law.

[flvegan]

76. I do. And it's a shame it doesn't in this case but does in others.

But considering you cheerlead for him based on your hatred for PETA...I'm done with you.

Have a good evening.

[dysfunctional press]

78. that's thwe way it is with the law(s) in this country...

but i don't cheerlead him BASED on my dislike of peta- they only add to it.(try a little reading comprehension next time)

[msanthrope]

147. Gambling has nothing to do with the NFL?

see my post above detailing his admittance to gambling......

are you seriously going to argue that gambling has nothing to do with professional sports?

[dysfunctional press]

150. was his conviction over gambling?

and was he gambling on nfl games?

other than that, what's your point? nfl players ARE allowed to gamble, you know.

[msanthrope]

170. Yes. Read his plea agreement. Gambling constituted an element

of the crimes he plead guilty to.

[pecwae]

110. That's a moronic statement.

[dysfunctional press]

120. what a well thought out and reasoned reply....

:eyes:

[PVnRT]

114. That's juvenile (n/t)

[dysfunctional press]

121. how so?

he'd completed his sentence, whether the shit-for-brains at peta like it or not.

[PVnRT]

133. You're basing an opinion based on what PETA thinks of it

By that measure, you must think fur is great, as well as factory farming.

[dysfunctional press]

138. no i'm not.

i said that the fact that peta is against it "only re-inforces" my opinion. it's not 'based' on what peta thinks of it, despite what i think of peta.

there are some wonderful books available on the topic of reading comprehension- maybe you should try one...?

[Political Heretic]

7. I said yes, but I should have said I don't care.

:shrug:

[Pool Hall Ace]

8. Would any team want him?

I would think he would be so out of shape by now, he would not be NFL calibre anymore.

He would probably be roundly booed anywhere he went.

[flvegan]

9. No. Fuck him.

Although if there were some way he could play for say, $25,000/year, I'd enjoy watching him get the crap kicked out of himself on the field every week.

Since he's such a fan of violence and fighting, maybe he should join the UFC or one of the other mixed martial arts leagues. Heh heh.

[Missy Vixen]

12. Any reading at all about Michael Vick's little escapades

should keep him out of the NFL for life. If Commissioner Goodell actually allows him back, he's the hypocrite to end all hypocrites.

I might also mention that Vick hasn't played in three years. He lied to the Falcons' owner (IIRC) last year, telling him he was playing in the prison league, when the prison league wasn't even practicing at that point. It's tough to imagine how any NFL player could regain their former skill with a three-year break.

He needs to find another line of work. He's radioactive. The only team in the league that mumbled about retaining his services (Oakland) quickly recanted.

IMHO, YMMV.

[Texasgal]

14. NO

And I mean HELL NO!

The fucker doesn't deserve anything resembling a "charmed life". FUCK THAT.

[spanone]

15. i imagine he has a different perspective on animals and football and celebrity & common sense.

hopefully

[ColbertWatcher]

69. This.

If not, well, then perhaps some more time away from the celebrity and religion of football?

[sandnsea]

16. Absolutely

and frankly I wonder about the values of anyone who says otherwise. If we don't believe in rehabilitation, then what the hell are we?

[InvisibleTouch]

I might believe in "rehabilitation"...

...if he'd actually expressed any remorse about what he did. I don't know, did he? Is there any indication that he came to realize his dogs were living beings who suffered horribly at his hands, and that he now has regrets? If not, then my immediate reaction is to say no - he shouldn't be hired back to a job that pays more in a year than many of us will see in a decade. The only positive aspect I could see, is that keeping him in a high-profile position would make it a lot harder to sneak off and do the same thing again.

[sandnsea]

39. A whole thread of pre-judgment

by people who call themselves liberals. It would be hysterical if it weren't so hypocritical.

[ZombieHorde]

28. I don't believe prison rehabilitates people. nt

[sandnsea]

35. If the prisoner participates in various programs

It most certainly can rehabilitate. It's up to the individual. Regardless, our entire prison system is built on parole and rehabilitation so what you're saying is you believe in locking people up for life.

[ZombieHorde]

41. "so what you're saying is you believe in locking people up for life"

What makes you think I support locking anyone up in prison?

[sandnsea]

48. no prison. no rehabilitation. no job.

What are you saying then?

[ZombieHorde]

54. I am saying that I don't believe prison necessarily rehabilitates people.

I am sure some people have been rehabilitated, but I seriously doubt that most are. I would not consider fear of being caught again being rehabilitated.

I especially don't believe people who take pleasure in committing disturbingly violent acts would be likely to be rehabilitated by going to prison.

I think I would have Vick work for the state so he could be well supervised. He definitely should be examined by multiple psychiatrists and receive 'no longer a fucking psychopath' stamp from all of them before being released into the general population. We are not talking about a normal criminal, we are talking about a guy who went out of his way to torture many animals.

[sandnsea]

60. Like a chain gang. I see. Thanks n/t

[Forkboy]

61. You're a piece of work.

:rofl:

[sandnsea]

73. What

"Government Supervision" for criminals for life. What the hell does that mean? Is anybody familiar with the concent of implementation? How the hell is something like that going to work? It's ridiculous. We've got parole and parole officers and that's as good as it's ever going to get.

[ZombieHorde]

87. Nice straw man. I see as well. nt

[sandnsea]

88. See #73 n/t

[ZombieHorde]

91. Parole is fine for car thieves and people who get into simple fist fights in bars,

but Vick crossed a disturbing line. People who torture for pleasure should have more supervision than basic parole offers. Something new should be carefully designed and implemented for people like Vick.

I am not an animal lover, but what Vick did was truly depraved.

[sandnsea]

92. Rapists, child molesters, murderers,

Parole is good enough for them, but not dog fighters??

[ZombieHorde]

97. Rape and molesting children is torture for pleasure in my view.

These people should also have new programs designed for them.

Murder is more broad. A man who kills out of anger is probably more likely to take to treatment than a man who kills for pleasure. Both are very dangerous and I am not sure finite sentences should be given, but the attempted treatments should probably be different.

[sandnsea]

98. And when can they get a job? n/t

[ZombieHorde]

100. I worked in a group home which had supervised jobs for our clients.

A new version of this may be implemented for those who respond well to treatment.

The question for me is, how do we really know when someone is cured of their desire to torture? Is a tiny desire to torture acceptable? Can these people really be cured?

I believe in redemption, but I also believe in protecting society.

[sandnsea]

104. They weren't monitored 24-7

They went to their jobs and back to the group home. Some are monitored with ankle bracelets after a time, and then released with a monthly check-in. How somebody thinks or feels isn't particularly important. What's important is that they're able to be honest with themselves about those thoughts and feelings, and execute a plan to prevent themselves from acting on them. Michael Vick certainly deserves that opportunity as much as a murderer or rapist.

[DainBramaged]

125. I'm seeing in this thread that DU isn't as Liberal and forgiving as we once thought

I guess to some, there is no fitting punishment for Vick's crimes. Yet these are the same people who are against the death penalty. But isolating a man AFTER he pays his debt to society, and loses all financial gain, is just not good enough for them.

I also noticed the gun lobby hasn't checked in on this thread, but I'm not surprised at that. Their only focus is guns and how many they can get. Social problems have no merit.

[Kalyke]

182. It's progressive to think a torturer deserves a multi-million dollar job?

I hardly think so.

He can work... but at Wal-mart or cleaning kennels.

[DainBramaged]

192. It isn't our place to decide where or whom he works for

We can boycott his employer, but we have no legal right to restrict his employment, no matter what the value of his salary. According to the law he has paid in full, his debt to society.

[Solomon]

31. Thank you

[Kalyke]

178. Except that animal abuse in some forms has a recitivism rate of 100 percent.

Would you hire a person convicted of having sex with children?

[KittyWampus]

20. I guess so, but the public can also visit their fury on any team that signs him.

[RollWithIt]

21. Personally, I think Michael Vick can serve a better good if he is allowed to play

By good I mean the following:

#1: He will be able to participate in animal and dog rescue programs on a national scale. Make no mistake about it, if Michael Vick is allowed to play in a US city there will be a dramatic upsurge in dog adoptions from kennels (Rescue dogs). You can bet he'll spend 20% of his time filming dog rescue commercials for the Humane society. Spending years in prison and losing everything does a lot to a person in their twenties. Makes for a GREAT spokesman.

#2: I believe that when a man is sentenced under law, he should be able to return to society and gain employment based on his skill set. Under a free capitalist society, if a person has shown true remorse for his earlier actions and served his penalty then he should be afforded the right to regain stability.

[Lisa0825]

36. I strongly support point #2 and hope he lives up to point #1.

No matter how much I detest someone for a crime committed, Once they have paid for it, it is not right to keep them from attempting to live life freely. The best outcome we can ever hope for is for someone to not only pay their dues, but also learn from it and become a better citizen because of it. I don't know that he will, but I hope so. He could help a lot of pets.

[Poiuyt]

22. If Vick had been a prominent banker, would the bank hire him back?

No one is saying he can't earn a living, but is it typical for a convicted felon and psychopath to get his old job back after having served his debt to society?

[RollWithIt]

27. I would disagree that he is a psychopath

A lot of what happened to Michael Vick had more to do with what he grew up surrounded by then an inherent violent streak. Drive to the worst ghetto in a one hour radius. Spot on.

[kenny blankenship]

34. "What happened to Michael Vick"

I'm relieved to learn he had nothing to do with it.

[petronius]

24. Yes, he should, if he's able to. I don't think players should be banned from sports leagues

for any off-field activity, except where it violates specific terms of the employment contract. Criminal behavior should be dealt with criminally and civilly, but this notion of barring 'undesirable' folks from the leagues reinforces the (ridiculous, in my view) notion that pro sports are somehow sacred and more integral to our culture than they actually are...

[BlooInBloo]

44. I think it's more that people in pro sports are *different* from "normal folks" in some way...

That I just can't quite put my finger on...

[Blasphemer]

25. Yes

He's done his time and is working with animal rights groups. It will take him a long time to rehabilitate his image but he certainly should be given the opportunity to do so while resuming his career.

[Lisa0825]

26. I don't like him, and I don't support him, but yes he should be "allowed."

That doesn't mean I am necessarily rooting him on and wishing him success, but he did pay his dues. I hope he actually had a change of heart rather than just serving his time. It would be great if he turned into an advocate for animals. If he did that, I would actually become a fan.

[greguganus]

33. If he does play again, I will be there pelting him with dog biscuits with alot of other fans. n/t

[Telly Savalas]

38. It would actually justify "who let the dogs out" being played at a sporting event.

[greguganus]

200. Maybe he can play for the Cleveland Browns. n/t

[Kalyke]

188. You'd pay money to see him?

I'd not give the NFL the pleasure of receiving my money if they hire him back.

But I do like the pelting him with dog biscuits - just do it as he walks off the bus or something. :)

[Holly_Hobby]

40. Only after being mauled by pit bulls n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

51. +1

[frylock]

42. absolutely..

and any team that hires him is looking for a PR disaster.

[Ikonoklast]

45. He can do whatever he wants to, as long as it's legal.

But I can refuse to support any organization that hires him.

That's America.

[MrSlayer]

46. No. beside the fact that no team would put up with the bad pub, he sucked as a QB.

He did his time and he's entitled to work but he's not entitled to play in the NFL. He can go play in Canada or something, if they'll have him.

[Sebastian Doyle]

47. Michael Vick should be locked in a cage

with 20 starving rabid Pit Bulls.

[realisticphish]

55. Up to the commish

private organization, it's his call :shrug:

IMO? It would be PR suicide for any team that hired him.

[hyphenate]

58. I don't care one way or the other

about his damned football career as I don't watch or like football. Although any team that takes him should be able to bargain his contract down as he's likely to be a liability, regardless.

However, I just want to make sure he never--EVER--goes near another animal AS LONG AS HE'S ALIVE. And he should be monitored for that for a LONG, long time to make certain that happens. End of Story.

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. Dogfighting is abhorrent

Still, I dislike having to pretend that I like people's dogs. I don't like dogs. But you have to pretend that you like them. It annoys me.

[petronius]

81. Actually, I've found that you don't even have to pretend to like them. Dog owners will just

assume that for you, and seize every opportunity to inflict their slobbering monstrosities on your clean new pants...

(Caveat: this opinion is based on a sample of one extremely annoying dog lover.)

[alcibiades_mystery]

83. They stink

My fake smile when I have to pet somebody's dog is transparently fake.

[SoCalDem]

64. If some team wants him, he'll resume his career, BUT

even the most asshole-y people tend to love their animals (except for the sadistic freaks..but that's another story).

My guess is that most of the people who have the money to buy tickets to games, are probably the same people who don't blink an eye at vet bills for their dear pets, or for the other accoutrements of having pets. THEY may not be able to look at him in a favorable light. There are just some crimes that make people "unforgiveable".

Just "serving the sentence" does not negate the crime. It "pays the debt" to society, which has assigned a particular "price" to be paid for various infringements, but it does not absolve the person.

[burning rain]

68. I'm inclined to say yeah.

The league will decide what it decides, but I think it's time to 86 this "role model for kids" myth role for pro athletes. At the same time, his crime was revolting and he's someone to keep an eye on for signs of sadism (cruelty to animals often tracks with / predicts cruelty to fellow humans). But in principle I think he probably ought to get another shot at playing.

[JVS]

71. That's a dispute to be settled between the football players' union and the NFL

[dolphindance]

74. Of course. He did his time, he is free to do as he pleases.

Really did too much time. Americans care more about pets than they do humans.

...and if it was a white guy you better believe it would have been a lesser sentence.

[Maru Kitteh]

79. Look at this and tell me he did "too much time" - What a crock. He didn't do nearly enough time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6111268#6111313

[Subdivisions]

82. I knew that was coming...and yet I clicked on it anyway. n/t

[Taitertots]

77. Let him play

It just has to be for the Lions

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Who is MIchael Vick?

by the way under our system of justice he paid his price to society... so if he finds a team YES... assuming he finds one.

One of the problems in this country is that felons and ex felons have a heck of a time finding work... then people wonder why they end up going back to old habits.

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. I've seen more than few posts by DU'ers that say once a perp has served his time...

he or she should be excused.

He's served his time. Let him be.

[DainBramaged]

89. What he did disgusts me to my soul, but if the goal of our prisons is to punish

and then permit the criminal to return to society, why shouldn't Vick be treated any differently than say a sex offender? Why shouldn't he be forced to do any job that benefits animals for the rest of his life (also so that he is supervised)? Sexual deviants wear a 'badge' of shame and are restricted by society for the rest of their lives, why not Vick?

This isn't the Third world, there is no place for animal fighting where people like Vick are PAID to perform in what amounts to a sport of barely controlled violence. But the people who play football do so voluntarily. The dogs Vick had fight for his pleasure did it from training and instinct, they had no choice. They were dogs.


This is a difficult decision for anyone to make. A person of power and privilege in a violent sport turns to the Middle Ages for his own personal entertainment, violates the law, is punished and pays for his crime. But we as a society will not let him back into the society we claim is civil.

A conundrum I am glad I do not have to solve.

[sutz12]

90. Sure, let him.....but not for my team...

;)

Not because of the dogfighting. Deplorable, yes, but he's paid his debt IMO. I don't want him on my team because he sucks as a QB. :shrug:

[Skittles]

99. I hope he rots in hell

[armyowalgreens]

101. The man lost everything, did his time in prison...what more do you want?

Let him back into the game. He has paid his debt to society.

[Yupster]

102. Of course he has a right to restart his career

but any GM would be crazy to hire him.

I think it will cost lots of money to any team bringing him aboard.

I sure wouldn't support my team if he was brought in.

[Raine]

103. NO unless the biggest part of his salary

is given to animal welfare charities.

[okieinpain]

105. love dogs but I think you can ride a person too much! he's not the only

one fighting dogs, and it didn't start or end with him. I don't remember a lot of discussion on DU about dog fighting before Vick got busted.

shit I had written this long ass post, but it's just too much crap. remind the man of what he did, but let him go live his life too.

[pecwae]

109. No. Fuck him, fuck anyone who employs him.

My bet is he'll be right back into his manly 'sport' of watching innocent animals die to entertain him in a matter of years if not months.

[Solomon]

112. (Shakes head) Your skirt is showing.

[pecwae]

141. Better that than inhumanity.

Whatever skirt showing means....

[Mad_Dem_X]

113. He's a monster.

Fuck him. I have no sympathy for anyone who abuses animals. Let him go broke.

[slampoet]

115. In our Country you can't take away somone's ability to make money.

And if you could I'd say Vick is too small to do that to.


HOWEVER there are a list of people I'd I would like to take away their right to own money or have a home or even clothe them selves a force them to live naked on what ever food people where willing to throw at them.

[piratefish08]

117. Sure - he did his time. Let him join a team and then boycott and protest. Shame the team

owner(s) and he will become a bad publicity liability.

I'd love nothing more than to see this human piece of shit broke and with no options.

Like that will ever happen. We value our entertainment FAR too much to allow the real world to interfere with it.........


(edited for clarity)

[msanthrope]

118. As an Eagles fan, may I say that I think Dallas should hire him? n/t

[Orsino]

119. I wouldn't want any of the Blackwater/CIA torturers playing, either.

Especially not those who have not atoned or even shown remorse.

Were I running a professional sports team, I'd hope that I would insist on treatment for whatever the fuck is wrong with Vick.

[livetohike]

122. No. I'm a huge football fan, but I will stop watching if the NFL

gives him another job. Let him find another way to make a living - millions of others have to find new careers when they lose a job.

[Mike Daniels]

124. If a football organization feels that it will be worth the PR nightmare..

then yes, he should be allowed to resume his career.

Do I think he'll be a starter for an NFL team in the near future? No. However, that has more to do with how I think he's going to fare in competing against younger players on the squad who haven't had their skills rust for the last 2 years.

[Nye Bevan]

127. So much for the liberal ideal of redemption and rehabilitation

A guy commits a crime, serves his time, pays his debt to society, but 38% of DUers think he should never again be allowed to be employed in his chosen line of work? :eyes:

[Bankhead_ATL]

130. Yeah Some DUers are funny

[snooper2]

134. Yep, because he makes too much money doing it...

That's their line of thinking as well...

( This SOB tortured dogs and now he is going to make more in a year than I make in a lifetime! )

Multiple people showing their slips in this thread...

If it was your average joe who worked at GM they would be singing a different tune.

[LanternWaste]

172. Context in all things, yes?

Context in all things, yes? A child rapist who served his time and pays his debt to society should a) be allowed to work in a daycare center, or b) not be allowed to work in a daycare center.

Degrees, context, shades of gray, lack of absolutism-- all part and parcel of any discussion. Calling into credibility the liberal ideas of people you may disagree with? Not so much a valid part of discussion.

[Blue_Tires]

128. of course...

if they went after all the dogfighters in the league, half the teams in the league would disappear overnight...

[Bankhead_ATL]

131. ?????

[Bankhead_ATL]

129. Yes... the Man did his time let him play

[LynneSin]

135. Vick has done some horrible things but has the ability to make a big difference in this world.

You can't undo the harm that Vick has caused but he has a prime opportunity to make good out of this bad situation. If Vick used his opportunity to rejoin the NFL as a way to promote protecting animals from abuse, then perhaps it's a good thing.

[goclark]

136. ? Should Sanford and Sin still be a Gov?

Should Cheney have been allowed to continue as VP?

At least he did his time for his dirty deeds. :shrug"

[msanthrope]

145. Why should a gambler be allowed back into the NFL?

Seriously.

If you don't think that mutilating dogs, and killing them grotesquely disqualifies you from professional sports, then how about gambling?

His own Statement of Facts details it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0824/vicksummary.pdf

[dysfunctional press]

165. lots of nfl players are gamblers- it's not illegal.

a lot of them even go to (gasp!) las vegas.

:eyes:

[msanthrope]

175. Gambling on an illegal sport is....wait for it!!! ILLEGAL!!!!! Illegal Gambling!!!

Always.

All the time.

Even if you are in the environs of Las Vegas.


I don't know how many times I have to explain to you that gambling on an illegal sport is illegal, and is in fact an element to the various charges that he PLED GUILTY TO.

As in, Michael Vick already admitted to illegal gambling.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0824/vicksummary.pdf

[dysfunctional press]

177. that wasn't what you asked- you merely said "a gambler".

gambling in itself is not an illegal activity, and many nfl players indulge in it.

[msanthrope]

184. And? The NFL's own rules allow for 'legal' gambling to be

the basis of disciplinary conduct.

Read paragraph 15 of the player's contract. It doesn't have to be illegal. But in this case, it sure as hell is.

[dysfunctional press]

186. if they gamble on their own sport, perhaps...

like dumbfuck scumbag pete rose did.

[msanthrope]

189. No. Educate yourself. Here's two links explaining.

Now, could you perhaps source your claims, as have I?


"The N.F.L. prohibits any association with gamblers or with gambling activities. Such involvement may result in severe penalties, including “a suspension from the N.F.L. for life,” the league’s gambling policy states.

Tony Taylor, one of Vick’s co-defendants, said in a statement of facts that he signed when he entered a guilty plea July 30 that the “gambling monies” used by the suspected dogfighting ring run from Vick’s property “were almost exclusively funded by Vick.”

Taylor cited at least nine instances in which gambling took place on Vick’s property in Surry, Va., or in which Vick was one of the sponsors for a dog in a fight in which a purse was won."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/sports/football/15vick.html





"Although the public outcry against Vick has stemmed from the alleged animal cruelty, the specter of illegal gambling on the alleged dogfights has been largely overshadowed.

"Not from our standpoint," Goodell told USA TODAY last week while he was in Canton, Ohio, for the Pro Football Hall of Fame induction ceremonies.

"Listen, we're sickened by the allegations and the predicament Michael put himself in. But there are a lot of things in the indictment that concern the NFL that may not be of a greater concern from a law enforcement standpoint."

The league's strict policy against gambling — addressed in Paragraph 15 of the standard player contract, which deals with integrity of the game issues — goes beyond betting on NFL games. It warns that violations could result in severe penalties up to a lifetime suspension.

Under terms of the policy, a violation could occur by associating with any gambling activities that bring discredit to the NFL."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/falcons/2007-08-09-vick-cover_N.htm?csp=34

[Kalyke]

157. I put "NO," but what I really wish is that no one would want to

hire someone who would harm innocent animals.

And I certainly can't understand why anyone would want to watch this asshole extraordinaire!

[redqueen]

162. Don't care. Throwball is boring as fuck. (nt)

[hamsterjill]

167. The NFL will eventually take him back.

I truly expect that the NFL will eventually take Vick back into its fold and allow him to play again.

I, personally, don't think they should, but I think they eventually will. After some well-placed and expected "soul searching" and positive press pieces, etc.

It is going to be interesting at that point in time how people react to Vick. There will be many, myself included, who would boycott any team on which Vick played. I'm not much of a football fan anyway, so I am no real loss to the NFL's bottom line.

But there will be those who don't care what he did.

Now, my question to the real football experts on DU is this: Was Michael Vick really all that good? Is it going to actually be worth it for an NFL team to hire him and still put up with all of the baggage that comes with him? I mean, isn't there already some younger, more deserving player who can outshine anything that Vick may have done in the past or is capable of doing in the future?

[msanthrope]

181. They might not take him back because of the new Federal inquiry.

He's under investigation by the Department of Labor.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6343048.html

[LanternWaste]

168. Nope.

No. I'd rather not see anyone who has willfully and consistently caused the injury, death, and torture of an innocent creature to hold a position of de-facto community leadership-- regardless of whether it's a politician or simply a free-market yahoo we're discussing.

[aikoaiko]

171. Sure. But its not like any NFL team has to hire him.

NFL team owner, " Vick who?".

[moobu2]

176. Sure, teach kids you can breed social animals for the purposes of torture

for your own pleasure and go on to be a millionaire.

[bigwillq]

187. Yes (nt)

[pitohui]

193. of course if he can still play well enough

i don't understand why we would want to take away forever someone's ability to do their legal job, because they have been in prison

if that's our belief, that no one should ever be able to work again once they have been in prison, so that they have no choice but to do other crimes, it would be better if we just killed everyone convicted of a crime (and surely as progressives we must know this is wrong!)

it is inhumane to punish the guy forever and give him no chance to fix his life, just as it would be inhumane if he had any other job (such as a white collar job, which i suppose most of you would deny him the right to hold also -- it is obvious that most people won't give the convicted a second chance)

if he can still do the job well, let him do it, he has paid a high price already for his stupidity

i just don't grok the eternal punishment crowd, everybody thinks jesus died and made them god and they should be able to put sinners in hell forever i guess

what he did was wrong, he got a punishment he never expected -- i'm told by a man who knows him that he simply refused to believe he would be arrested (the other man retired from the dogfighting IMMEDIATELY on receiving the tip but vick wouldn't accept the warning) -- maybe give him a chance to prove he's learned something from all this shit?

did you refuse to watch mike tyson fight again, he served time for RAPE of a female human being not a dog...but we still watched him fight again, at least i did and i wasn't the only one

[DainBramaged]

197. Well done, but as you noticed, sympathy even for the devil is lacking here

He may be a total scumbag, but if you keep him from earning a living, what will he do? Chances are he will become a recidivist.

[GoesTo11]

198. He should return to football as an owner, not a player

He has the right experience, if you substitute people for dogs.