All charges DROPPED against Professor Gates, per m$nbc.

[babylonsister]

What DO you know?!


Go here if you're not familiar with Professor Gates, the Harvard scholar.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6109468

Edit to add article:

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE56K47G20090721


Charges dropped against Harvard professor: report
Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:49am EDT


BOSTON (Reuters) - Disorderly conduct charges filed against one of the nation's pre-eminent African-American scholars have been dropped, local media reported on Tuesday.

Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates was arrested on Thursday after what police described as "exhibiting loud and tumultuous behavior," including accusing police of racism.

Boston's WHDH-TV said all charges would be dropped, quoting unidentified sources.

Gates, 58, director of Harvard's W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African & African American Research, was arrested at his home in Cambridge, Massachusetts, police said.

A woman had reported a man trying to force open the home's door, according to the arrest report. A statement from Gates' lawyer, Charles Ogletree, released late on Monday said the professor was unable to enter his damaged front door after returning from a trip to China.

Ogletree, a Harvard Law professor, said Gates entered through the rear door and his driver carried in his luggage. Ogletree said Gates showed his Harvard identification and driver's license to a policeman who arrived at his home. Gates asked the policeman for his name and badge number. The police officer walked away and when Gates followed him to the porch, he was arrested, Ogletree's statement said.

The police report said Gates initially refused to provide identification and after the officer's explained he was investigating a reported break-in, shouted "this is what happens to black men in America." The report said Gates leveled threats against the policeman, then followed the officer outside and yelled at him. Officers then arrested him.

[BlooInBloo]

1. In 60 minutes they're going to invite him to their pool.

:rofl:

[Raskolnik]

2. Oopsie, indeed. n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

3. But, but, but why??

He dared talk back to the police in his own house!

[malaise]

47. Ding ding

we have winner

[chelsea0011]

4. It was reported this am that the driver in a suit and his limo/car were there

and Gates still had all his bags on the porch. Add to that the Cambridge police didn't recognize him (even I would have recognized him)and you have to wonder how race couldn't be an issue here. And it wasn't like Gates couldn't get access to the house. He had already entered from the back and he and the driver were just trying to figure out the stuck front door.

[Captain Hilts]

9. It's also class. I'll bet that cop can't afford to live anywhere near Cambridge. nt

[-..__...]

14. In MA?

Some of those cops can easily make more than a college professor.

[Warpy]

55. East Cambridge was a godawful slum when I lived in Boston

I can't imagine it's been yuppified unless they've also torn down a lot of that intensely weird housing stock, stuff that students would tolerate because they were only there for a few years.

[tishaLA]

5. Gosh, who could have seen this coming?

Perhaps the seven onlookers outside Skip's house who watched his tumultuous performance?

[JitterbugPerfume]

6. this is amazing

How could at least one of them not recognise Prof.Gates?

[-..__...]

10. Yeah... I'm amazed that with all the cops...

that attend all his lectures and have read all his books, that not one of them knew who he was. :eyes:

What makes Gates so special...that he would be recognized?

He's just another person in a city of 100,000+

I never even heard of the fucking guy until this incident.

[AspenRose]

13. Not surprising you wouldn't know who he is.

[-..__...]

17. Yeah...

Usually I'm aware beforehand of the obnoxious tools that make the headlines.

Now I'll have reason to remember him.

[babylonsister]

20. Obnoxious tool? Look in the mirror. nt

[-..__...]

25. Maybe I should create a media circus...

and flap my arms around while making a loud bellowing sound?

Seems like it worked for Gates.

[babylonsister]

27. Maybe he shouldn't have been humiliated in his own home

by cops who didn't know how to act human.

[-..__...]

34. "Act human"?

Perhaps Gates should have shown some understanding, patience and common courtesy? But those would be human traits... something Gates is apparently incapable of displaying.

[babylonsister]

36. Yes, act human. You should give it a go, too.

And if you don't see what's wrong with this picture, I can't help you.

Ask yourself why the charges were dropped, yet you blame Gates.

Your hatred is getting in your way which is pitiful considering you didn't even know who Mr. Gates was.

And bye, you're not worth arguing with.

[Raineyb]

44. I see why you're unfamiliar with the phrase. n/t

[CatWoman]

106. Every time I see one of your posts

I wonder who in his or her right mind gave you access to a computer.

[Cha]

144. ...

Phuuuufffftttt!! :rofl::fistbump:

[Number23]

118. The only thing more nonsensical than your DU handle are your comments

which are STEEPED in ignorance

But those would be human traits... something Gates is apparently incapable of displaying.

You are making a colossal ass of yourself.

[Hutzpa]

32. Maybe you could grow a brain

with your insipid attitude exposing your lack of understanding to the situation, a well
known individual in the immediate vicinity being seen as an intruder even when he produced
his identification standing inside his house should be sufficient evidence for the police
to use common sense.

[MineralMan]

52. Oh, for pete's sake...let it be.

What's your point, in the first place?

[Flaneur]

40. What an idiot. Read a book.

[JitterbugPerfume]

15. Watch more PBS

It is amazing what you can learn there

[-..__...]

23. That would be fine...

if I even watched TV.

Let me give you a recent example.

I work for a major metro fire department.

One of our duties includes conducting a fire safety inspection each time a piece of property is sold.

Sometimes it's the realtor showing us the place... sometimes it's the seller.

In the example I'm giving, it was the seller who greeted us and as it turned she happened to be one of the most well known
local TV news personalities in Boston (and FWIW... she was a black female).

I didn't recognize her at all and when one of my coworkers told me (I did recognize the name), I though he was jerking my chain.

Another one... same deal; conducting a safety inspection, only this time it was Anwar Sadats daughter. The only reason I knew that was because she had his Noble peace prize in a display case along with other historical and personal mementos.

However... I had no problem recognizing Steven Tyler when we inspected a piece of property he owned. :headbang:

Point is... there are a million celebrities, personalities, figureheads, etc in this world.
Not everyone is going to know, recognize or even be aware of each and every one; especially one as minor and unexciting as a Harvard professor.

[Hutzpa]

33. THAT

tells me you don't pay too much of an attention to what is going on around you.

[-..__...]

35. No...

what that should tell you is that I have little to no interest in following the celebrity status of whom is whom, what they look like or their personal torments and gripes.... especially celebrities of Hollywood Squares type caliber or importance.

[JitterbugPerfume]

50. celebrity? Hollywood Squares?

Prof Gates is one of the best known scholars in America, black , white, or any other description

[hiphopnation]

84. give it up

this one's a lost cause....

[MineralMan]

54. OK, there...here's a scenario that might help you understand...

You just came back from the gun shop with a firearm you were having repaired and are carrying it from the trunk of your car into your house. Miss Grundy across the street sees you and calls 911 to report a man with a gun going into your house.

Cops arrive, and aren't happy with you and you bluster at them about your 2nd and 4th amendment rights. You end up in handcuffs.

Now...your response?

[Spazito]

78. Oh my.....excellent scenario!

I am looking forward to KalashniKitty's response to it!

[MineralMan]

79. Well, all I'm hearing is crickets,

so...

[Spazito]

80. Yeah, the silence, virtually speaking, is deafening since your post...

gosh, I wonder why, lol.

[Ikonoklast]

114. Umm, I had that happen to me.

Busybody across the street called the law on me for entering my own house. I used to work 8PM to 8AM, and I had two long guns my Dad needed the head space checked, so I picked them up the evening before, had them in my car, and was bringing them into the house thew next morning after work (my evening).

Cops showed up, rang the bell, asked me what I was doing, told them Huh? What do you mean?

They told me they had a report of 'armed individuals' in the neighborhood.

I laughed in their faces and told them to tell the old bat across the street to mind her own business.

I closed the door. They left.

One time she asked my sons if I was an alcoholic because she saw me drinking a beer one morning while I went out to get the mail (which was my evening).

My second oldest told her I was a mean drunk, and used to beat them when they were little, but I didn't drink near as much as I used to, and since they were older and bigger, I didn't hit them so much anymore.

[-..__...]

141. Hmmm... a hypothetical question?

Sure... I'll play.

Straight and simple answer... I'd have no problem with it at all; then again, I wouldn't be shooting my mouth off (no pun intended), yelling at a cop (responding to a legitimate call), about my 2nd and 4th amendment rights.

[Karenina]

61. You need to team up with Buchanan and Turley!

:hi:

[datasuspect]

37. PBS IS DEVIL SATIN LIBRUL!!!111111

PERFESORS AREN"T NOT WRASTLERS!!!??!

WHY HOW CABN I NOW WHO GAITES ARE???

[EFerrari]

18. He's done a bunch of documentaries. Maybe the last one

was Looking for Lincoln.

[hiphopnation]

83. I never even heard of the fucking guy until this incident.

proud of this, are you?

[sinkingfeeling]

7. Excellent. Will he sue now?

[ensho]

8. hope so

nt

[fascisthunter]

46. he has a case for harrassment

[AspenRose]

11. Also

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32010985/ns/us_news-race_an... /

.....about the woman who made the phone call?

"Cambridge police say they responded to the well-maintained two-story home near campus after a woman reported seeing "two black males with backpacks on the porch," with one "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry."

The woman, Lucia Whalen, is the circulation and fundraising manager at Harvard Magazine, a news and alumni magazine affiliated with the school. The magazine's offices are down the street from Gates' home."


ALUMNI MAGAZINE AFFILIATED WITH HARVARD. And yet she didn't recognize Professor Gates?

Also: "Ogletree also disputed the claim that Gates, who was wearing slacks and a polo shirt and carrying a cane, was yelling at the officer.

"He has an infection that has impacted his breathing since he came back from China, so he's been in a very delicate physical state," Ogletree said."

[EFerrari]

59. How can you mistake a guy in a tux carrying a bag for someone with a backpack?

I hope she doesn't do the books, too. :)

[Warpy]

12. One thing police academies have got to start teaching

these guys is how to back down when they're wrong.

When you investigate the reason people say they hate cops, it's usually because they've run into some guy who's gotten the wrong idea, been corrected, and refused to let go of the wrong idea.

Teaching them that blind stubbornness is no virtue could repair relations with the community quickly.

[Robb]

42. I'd have to agree.

I remember being terribly impressed with Berkeley and Oakland police, watching them in the 90s during tense situations.

Somewhere they had learned when to back off to keep a bad situation from getting worse. It was impressive to watch situations be defused that way.

[burning rain]

53. Good point. Cops are like drill sergeants there.

Once I was able very patiently to explain to a drill sergeant why he was wrong and I was right, and he ended the conversation by saying, "My mistake, your fault, praat!" ("Praat" is "private" in army talk, sounds like "prat" but with the vowel more drawn out.) Pretty good illustration of the mentality. When you're right, you're still wrong with those characters.

[stray cat]

16. If you see someone forcing the door of a neighbors house would you object?

[qazplm]

26. there was nothing wrong

with the police showing up to investigate or neighbors reporting it.

But might I suggest that if when you arrive, the potential perpetrator is not only not taking off running at the first sight of you, but is walking around on the phone with the property management, that perhaps you should present yourself as, hey we had a report that someone was trying to break in here and we are just checking to make sure everything is ok.

See how the guy reacts, and then heck, if you still aren't sure, hang around outside for a few minutes, if the guy runs out carrying a TV then arrest him.

[hfojvt]

56. probably better and simpler to ask for ID

one that would show said person living at that address.

A reasonable person would expect some questions when they are engaged in forcing a house door open, which is what Gates and the driver were doing because it was jammed. The times when I locked myself out of my house I wouldn't have been outraged if the neighbors or police suspected something, and I wouldn't get all outraged and claim it was just racism when they followed up on those suspicions.

But I would also expect a cop to give his name and badge number to anybody who asks too.

[EndersDame]

153. Well my Drivers License is still for my old address

I hate the waiting in lines at the DPS with a passion and fury of a thousand burning suns

[Dappleganger]

31. Not if I saw it was my neighbor.

But see, we get to know our neighbors and know that not all people look the same.
The professor's neighbor lady never took the time to get to know him and she just assumed the Big Scary Black Man was there to rape their neighborhood.

/s/

[juno jones]

51. Yeah, Mrs. Kravitz across the street might

be someone to chat up right now.

[seaglass]

97. OK, his house had recently been broken into that's why there was

a problem with the door (in addition to not having keys) and who knows how long the woman lived there? Assume much?

[Dappleganger]

110. I'm going to err on the side of proven history.

[ecstatic]

41. Wow. Give it a rest. Besides...that's not the point

The assholes went ahead and arrested him even after it was clear he was the owner. Clear case of police harassment.

[quiller4]

73. Not if I recognized the someone as my neighbor. n/t

[AspenRose]

19. Surprise, surprise...this has gone down from 10 recs to 9 within the past 5 minutes

[Occulus]

48. I bet I know who it was, too.

K&R to counter the dysfunction ;)

[lindisfarne]

21. I don't know how they could press any charges against him, now that they've established he was in

own home. He could have simply said: you don't have a search warrant - now leave.
If showing the cops his ID did not immediately cause the cops to leave, he does have reason to pursue a lawsuit.

[lindisfarne]

22. Link to video of Gates's attorney's statement

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/21/lawyer-black-professor-not-guilty-of-disorderly-conduct/

[AspenRose]

29. From that link:

"“As you can see from the report … the report from a neighbor was two black men wearing backpacks. Well, professor Gates … did not have a backpack and driver was in a tuxedo and a tie and a limousine. … So you begin to see how these things get out of hand,” Ogletree said.

Asked on CNN whether Gates’ actions were “belligerent” enough to justify an arrest, Ogletree responded: “He was very frustrated, there’s no question about that. But belligerent is not the case. He never touched the officer, never pointed at the officer. And, in fact, he was trying to stay in his house, having produced identification , saying ‘What more do I need to do? This is my house.’”

[Starry Messenger]

24. Excellent news.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for THAT meeting. I hope Dr. Gates is doing ok. What a humiliating experience.

[Hutzpa]

28. They need to fuckin' apologies

and that officer should be suspended without pay.

Inside his own house, Fuckin' ridiculous.....


:grr:

[whistler162]

30. Yup and next time there is a report about two men

breaking into a home and the officer arrives and one of the men identifies himself as the home owner. The officer should just leave. Until they find the owners body because the second man was actually a home invader who had grabbed the home owner in the parking lot of <fill in the blank>!

[Hutzpa]

38. See post #22

that should explain my comment.

[AspenRose]

39. See #26.

[Solomon]

43. It's clear to some people that a black man can't talk shit in his own

home, much less defend himself in his own home.

What don't people get about the fact that he was in his own home? The cop may not have known who he was when he arrived, but he certainly knew before he decided to escalate the matter. And he did it because he didn't like the way Gates was talking to him.

The idea that once a cop has a right to look, it means he can do anything from that point on is absolutely absurd. Yet I hear this sentiment all to often from people.

[Occulus]

45. Go and look at that other thread

One poster in particular twisted logic, common sense, and the fact into a pretzel.

Note that that particular poster hasn't yet touched this thread.

[Raineyb]

49. I don't think that poster will show. n/t

[Karenina]

74. I nuked him just in case. TY, Elad!

Turley, Buchanan, swimming while black and now THIS! Welcome to "post-racial" Amurikkka. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

81. What's did I miss about Turley? n/t

[Karenina]

92. The oh so mediocre Thurgood Marshall.

[EFerrari]

93. I managed to forget that. n/t

[hfojvt]

57. Are you surprised by that?

If the police report is true though, the charges being dropped don't make Gates any less of a jerk.

[EFerrari]

60. Right. If the police report is true. Oh, brother.

I hope he sues their lying @sses off.

[hfojvt]

66. What do you think they are lying about?

I hope he settles for an apology like I did. Of course, I kinda regret that sometimes. Again, if they are telling the truth, he should probably apologize too.

[EFerrari]

68. They had to justify the arrest so that means in their report

they had to show him as someone whose behavior was out of control. I don't believe any of it. Gates has no history of out of control behavior. He's not Nick Nolte, you know what I mean? On top of that, he came home ill from China with some kind of infection that obstructs his breathing. It doesn't sound like he could yell even if he wanted to.

[hfojvt]

82. well Gates own report does not sound credible to me

http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr

It all sounds so calm. Then why is Gates asking for the cops name and badge number if he is not making an accusation of racism like the cops allege? If he made an accusation of racism and hestitated at providing ID, then why isn't that part of his account? If anybody told their side of the story to make themselves look pure and innocent, it is Gates. Clearly Gates was upset even before his arrest or he wouldn't have been asking for a badge number, which he admits to doing. If people are upset, they often yell, espeically in their own house. I don't hold that against anyone or think they should be arrested for yelling at the cops. America is not America if you can't tell a bunch of cops 'get the fu#$ off my porch!' I also think the cop should get some kind of reprimand for not giving his name and badge number when asked. If cops can demand ID, then citizens should be able to as well. The arrest was bullsh*t even if the cops are completely telling the truth. HOWEVER, even then, Gates was still being an a$$hole. I just don't think it's illegal to be an a$$hole.

[EFerrari]

87. He asked for their information because they were in his home,

as far as I can tell, and without his permission. I would have done the same thing.

[hfojvt]

88. they don't really need his permission

they have probable cause. Until he produces ID, he might be a burglar. You don't just let a suspected burglar go 'let me go get my ID' and then skip out the back door.

To me, their story makes more sense on that part. That he got mad about being forced to produce ID in his own house, thought it had something to do with his race, and intended to make trouble for this officer. He himself gives no reason for asking for a badge number.

[EFerrari]

89. Do they have probably cause? Most burglars don't show up with luggage,

keys, a car and a driver.

[hfojvt]

96. oh they easily might

the luggage is empty and for carting off the loot, the driver is a partner in crime, pretending to work for a courier service. And if we get caught, we act outraged like we are the owners of the home coming back from a trip. Not that big a stretch.

Plus, how do you know the cop saw the luggage?

[EFerrari]

98. Except the ID has the address on it. It is a big stretch.

But you know and I know that "probable cause" is a pretty flabby concept. :)

[hfojvt]

101. the officer hasn't seen the ID though

not until he follows Gates into his house. That's why he has probable cause, because he hasn't seen the ID.

Of course, a really clever crook would just create a fake ID showing that he lived at that address. :o We'd better go downtown and get some fingerprints just to be sure.


Just kidding. That would strain the limits of credulity.

[EFerrari]

102. Leadership has a lot to do with how a group of cops operate.

I've lived in three different precincts here in San Francisco, and two of them had excellent leadership and the third resembled a third world fiefdom and the cops out of that place reflected that in their performance.

The Haight is in the Parkside precinct. They have to deal with tourists on top of what happens in pockets of poverty. Those guys are really good. If I needed to be arrested, I'd want to be arrested there, lol. They all look like they take care of themselves, like they enjoy what they do and don't mind going to work.

My own precinct, Taraval Station, is every bit as good. These people really know what they're doing and you can tell there's a lot of loyalty among them and also, believe it or not, care about the precinct itself. Now, the Ingleside Station is corrupt as hell, they treat people like sh!t and I'd rather shoot myself than be handled by them. Their morale is cr@p. One of their rookies once said to me, "I just bought a house and have a new baby. I have to arrest SOMEONE." He was just a kid doing an awful job and in the middle of everything, I felt so bad that he was so cornered for a living.

I couldn't do that job, that's for sure.

[jonestonesusa]

115. So I guess the fact that...

Henry Louis Gates is in his 60s/70s, and is no reasonable threat to anyone, that he's disabled, walks with a cane, and accompanied by hired help, the fact that he is a world renowned scholar with a major national profile at the greatest university at the United States, who gets arrested after showing ID, isn't enough to keep you from siding with the cops? And you're on DU?

What was your opinion on the Rodney King video? That the superhuman black man could possibly rise and with his bare hands fight off a platoon of cops who have guns and riot gear, so maximum force is justified?

We're talking about Cambridge, MA, one of the bourgeois capitals of the US. Disabled retirement-age black men are no threat to the peace in Cambridge. Any police officer should know that - and BTW, the police force works for the people, not the other way around. Sounds like you also support the intentional concealment of badge numbers that was standard operating procedure for racist cops for decades.

Come on...

[hfojvt]

122. there's no need to speculate on everything

I have made other posts in this thread where I said that the arrest never should have happened and also that the cop should have given his own name and badge number.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6114566&mesg_id=6117199

My side is that Gates alleged angry accusation of racism because a cop made him show his ID and proof of residence and then his high and mighty 'I am gonna get you fired because I am a big important guy and you made me show my ID'. Those make him look like a paranoid pompous jerk.

Of course cops work for us and the sky is blue and the sun is hot and water is wet. One of the things we hire the police for is to make sure people don't break into our houses. That's pretty obvious too.

Come on, indeed, Eileen.

Rodney King? "When is the last time you washed your face?" (from the movie Billy Jack, a response to an irrelevant and impertinent question.)


Do we really need to discuss Rodney King here, and Jesse James and Hitler and Pol Pot and David Duke and Donovan McNabb and OJ Simpson and Michael Richards. And do you really need to try to put words in my mouth about any of them. Clearly, if I have issues with Gates behaviour here, I must think that Hitler was really a misunderstood genius and that Donovan McNabb is over-rated and that OJ should goto prison just for dating a white woman.

Clearly, a person is either with Gates or a member of the KKK.

[jonestonesusa]

142. Really, it's simpler than you put it

You see more ambiguity in this case than I do. I happen to think it's such an obvious outrage to arrest the highest profile African American scholar in the USA, probably the world, in his own home after he identifies himself and didn't commit any crime, even according to the police at this point, that I wouldn't expect to encounter so many opinions similar to yours on DU. You allege like some others do that Gates acted "high and mighty" and might have contributed to his arrest - which is bunk. Do you really think this would have occurred with Paul Krugman, Larry Summers when he was at Harvard, or other high profile white academics who showed identification to the police at their own house? But black people have a penchant for getting themselves arrested, I guess, even if they're world renowned professors. And we can't just assume that it's overzealous cops, right?

Whatever your club memberships, I'm sure you'll continue to own your opinion. Peace!

[hfojvt]

147. the arrest is an outrage

But so is Gates alleged conduct. That, in no way, justifies an arrest. However, if Paul Krugman or Larry Summers were reported to have said "You don't know who you're messing with," I would think that shows a fair amount of hubris. Even though I do think it's pretty stupid for a cop in a University town to 'mess with' one of the Professors. And then there's the alleged accusation of racism, which looks pretty hollow, at least before the arrest.

Like the Cambridge police department, I see wrong on both sides and would like to see, or represent that balance at DU which seems to think all the wrong came from the police department. Putting that balance in my own postings, I see at least three things I don't like about the officer's conduct


1. "An officer ordered the man to identify himself" I don't like to see the verb 'ordered' here instead of 'asked'.
2. refusing to give his name and badge number
3. making the arrest. Seriously, wtf?

[Number23]

119. Did you used to write for Hart to Hart? Magnum PI?

Or some other really bad detective series?

the luggage is empty and for carting off the loot, the driver is a partner in crime, pretending to work for a courier service.

Actually, to be honest your scenarios don't even sound Hart to Hart caliber. Scooby Doo comes to mind....

[hfojvt]

125. ooh look, it's another ad hominem reply

this must be part of the secret plan to teach people to be more tolerant.

It's all a bunch of pointless speculation. Did the driver look like an obvious driver or was he non-uniformed? Did the cop see the luggage? We don't know any of that, but we apparently like to speculate so we can get all offended because the cop had the sheer nerve to ask a black man who seemed to be breaking into a house to show some ID to prove that he lived there. Because we KNOW that never happens to white people who seem to be breaking into a house. It's racism I tell you. Vicious racism.


And Look! Over there. It's a wolf!!

[Number23]

137. Yep. DEFINITELY Scooby Doo

[Raineyb]

108. Once they saw his ID and saw he lived there they had no business staying

And frankly, I wouldn't allow them in my house in the first place. They can wait on the stoop for me to come back to the door with the ID.

[Karenina]

91. Would you be so kind as to explain your $$ reference?

[hfojvt]

94. this officer candidate does not understand the question

You want to know why I think Gates was an a$$hole, or you do not understand the meaning of the word 'a$$hole'?

[Karenina]

104. Please, don't be so coy!

Just wondering about the $$ in your perception. Didn't want to a$$ume, so I a$ked the $$ que$tion :shrug:

[hfojvt]

112. I am coy? But you did not answer the straight question.

So I am still unsure of what you are asking.

So I am gonna say the answer is 42.

[Raineyb]

107. I understand completely. I saw your name next to it when I looked it up n/t

[hfojvt]

113. I learn so much from reading your replies.

Kinda makes DU worthwhile meeting somebody here who is so well versed in the third grader's book of insults.

[Raineyb]

139. I wouldn't waste a third grader's insult on the likes of you. I was looking for 1st.

I seriously doubt you've learned anything at all anywhere. That would necessitate you listening to someone else and opening your mind. Two things with which you are clearly unfamiliar.

[Karenina]

117. It's impossible to get a man to understand something

That his salary depends on his NOT UNDERSTANDING.

[hfojvt]

120. I don't have a salary

just to clear that up. I was quoting from 'An Officer and a Gentleman' as a way to say 'I don't understand your question'. After I thought about that, 'officer candidate' made it sound like I was in training to be a police officer, which is not the case, although I have applied to be a dog catcher twice, which is part of the police department in my town, but presumably I would only arrest dogs and cats. I didn't get the job anyway, twice.

So, to answer two other questions.

1. I write a$$hole or a$$hat or fu#% with dollar signs and etc. as a way to technically avoid profanity which may offend some people. There is no other hidden meaning, although I think it does work well when the person in question is a rich a$$hat and I also write M$M to show that they are big money.

2. I think Gates was an a$$hole in this incident because, according to the police report, he started making angry accusations of racism when there was no obvious racism. He acted like an arrogant and pushy bigshot rather than like a gentleman and a scholar. There's a difference between demanding respect and demanding obsequiousness (something, ironically enough, that cops often need to be reminded of too) and Gates crossed that line. I like to think that if I was a cop I would have handled it much better, but I probably still would have gone away from the encounter thinking 'what an a$$hole'.

Doesn't mean he couldn't say 'Hey I was tired from travelling and already ticked off about my busted door, etc.' but apparently he (and many of his defenders) are still in high dudgeon if not in cops-are-always-a$$holes mode.

Although I don't think he should have been arrested for allegedly making a scene on his own front porch, I also don't think he should have been making a scene.

It's always possible that the cop was a racist POS who figured he'd put an 'uppity black' in his place and then made up the story of angry racism charges and yelling to justify his actions but in my mind the cop told a story that made sense and Gates didn't.

[Karenina]

133. I appreciate your response.

1. OK, I understand that from your point of view, Professor Gates is a rich a$$hole and a$$hat.

2. I also understand that you cannot fathom many of the dynamics in this incident. You believe in your heart that there was no "obvious racism." It's often said that 90% of language is non-verbal. My experiences lead me to subscribe to that view. But let's just leave that aside for the moment. There's a tone of voice issue that is universal. One hears it and KNOWS IMMEDIATELY the assumptions behind it. Once Officer Jim Crowley saw Skip's ID it was incumbent upon him to exit, stage right. Never mind his sorry lack of observation skills of what he might be dealing with. A black Cambridge policeman commented on it. Did you see that? This lack of social skills leads to elderly women being shot in their homes, diabetics in shock being roughed up, mentally challenged being tazered and on and on and on. This time a sick and tired, beloved old prof has had lightening strike his ebony and ivory tower. I'm quite certain he'll deal with it in the most entertaining and educational way. Skip is NOT the "angry black man" stereotype you seek. It's SO EASY to weigh in on how others behave, especially when they're "the other" and one has no point of reference.

"It's always possible that the cop was a racist POS who figured he'd put an 'uppity black' in his place and then made up the story of angry racism charges and yelling to justify his actions but in my mind the cop told a story that made sense and Gates didn't."

You get major points for even considering the possibility but in my mind it will be interesting to discover if the rumours of Officer Jim Crow's rep in the community have any basis. I hear tell that it was NOT his dispatch... :evilgrin:

:popcorn:

[hfojvt]

146. I don't really care how much money Gates makes

except for a general desire to tax it progressively.

You wrote "once Officer Crowley saw Skip's ID it was incumbent on him to exit"

Except, according to the police report, Gates was already complaining about racism even before he showed ID.

I am not seeking any angry black man stereotype, and I don't really see anybody as an 'other'. Since he's a professor and I am a former graduate student he would presumably be one of my kind. It seems to me that on DU, that cops are seen by many as an 'other' and that other DUers are calling the cops liars and racists based on no evidence.

The first article I read said:

"An officer ordered the man to identify himself, and Gates refused, according to the report. Gates began calling the officer a racist and said repeatedly, "This is what happens to black men in America."

Officers said they tried to calm down the 58-year-old academic, who responded, "You don't know who you're messing with," according to the police report."

If that is true, I see at least 3 errors on Gates part.
1. refusing to identify himself
2. calling a cop a racist because he told Gates to identify himself.
3. making a statement like 'you don't know who you are messing with.'

I think I have conceded that this might not be a true account, but I have not seen evidence to prove it's not and have seen some people who feel the best way to defend Gates is to attack me. Perhaps some people feel they know Gates as well as I might say I know Bob Somerby or Isaac Asimov. Reading such a report about Asimov, I might be quick to say the report is crap because I 'know' Asimov too well to think he'd do something like that. And I might feel I know him just by reading him or hearing him speak and seeing the obvious intelligence, decency and wit shown by his words. That would be a fair defense, but I have not seen such a defense here. People here think the best defense is a strong offense.

[Karenina]

148. How Skip saw it:

"I’m saying ‘You need to send someone to fix my lock.’ All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’

My lawyers later told me that that was a good move and had I walked out onto the porch he could have arrested me for breaking and entering. He said ‘I’m here to investigate a 911 call for breaking and entering into this house.’ And I said ‘That’s ridiculous because this happens to be my house. And I’m a Harvard professor.’ He says ‘Can you prove that you’re a Harvard professor?’ I said yes, I turned and closed the front door to the kitchen where I’d left my wallet, and I got out my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license which includes my address and I handed them to him. And he’s sitting there looking at them.

Now it’s clear that he had a narrative in his head: A black man was inside someone’s house, probably a white person’s house, and this black man had broken and entered, and this black man was me.

I understand your need to put the onus on Skip, however your premises vis-a-vis our civil liberties seem quite flawed. One premise does come across as a fundamental objection to the "uppity negro." I also understand that racist behaviour is a misdemeanor while calling it out is a felony. ;-)

[hfojvt]

150. I don't think I have any such need to put the onus anywhere

Perhaps naively I took the police report to have a fair amount of truth in it.

You didn't put a link to your more detailed account, and I am interested in seeing how it continued. When did Gates first accuse the officer of being racist.

Even in this account I see some bad things.

First of all paranoia "I realized that I was in danger". Perhaps he has a narrative in his head: "A white cop is on someone's porch, looking to frame, hassle and rough up a black man." I would like to ask him why he thought he was in danger. That's not a reaction I would have just because I find some cop apparently investigating a crime in my neighborhood.

Second, he seems to be claiming some mind reading powers. How is it clear to Gates what narratives are inside Crowley's head? That seems like a major assumption to me.

I doubt if there is a law against being paranoid or thinking you can read minds, but such an attitude seems to lend itself to misunderstanding, hostility and other unpleasant contretemps.

[Karenina]

154. "I would like to ask him why he thought he was in danger."

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::freak:
Of cousre, YOU wouldn't have that reaction because YOU'RE WHITE.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::freak:

In lingustic terms, it's called "register."

It's enough now. Tschüß!!! :hi:

[hiphopnation]

136. key words here being:

"according to the police report" Some look at police reports as a credible tool upon which to form strident opinions, others look and are immediately suspect. It's clear which you are...

"No obvious racism." Please explain this, you're writing like you were right there. Tell me, what is "obvious racism?" What would the cop have had to said for there to be "obvious racism?" "Get out on this porch, ya ni#&er, or I'll drag you out!" Would that have counted as "obvious racism?" Please, I'm looking forward to your elaborating on this.

I can just see your response if Gates were to have said that epithets were used. "According to the police report, the copy didn't say 'dirty ni#&er' at all"


edit: grammar

[hfojvt]

145. unfortunately there are only two accounts

Although the police report is only given 2nd hand, through the press.

Gates own statement does not allege any racism. But Gates statement is edited, like I said. Gates makes no mention of why he is upset at the officer, but it shows that he must have been upset because he was asking for a name and a badge number. So his statement has at least one big hole in it. Nor does he explicitly deny the police report, which says this

"An officer ordered the man to identify himself, and Gates refused, according to the report. Gates began calling the officer a racist and said repeatedly, "This is what happens to black men in America."

Officers said they tried to calm down the 58-year-old academic, who responded, "You don't know who you're messing with," according to the police report."

Here's the officer's report, according to that story.
1. Cop orders unknown person to identify himself
2. Unknown person refuses.
3. Presumably the demand for ID is repeated.
4. Gates makes accusation of racism and says repeatedly 'This is what happens to black men in America.'

Do we agree that that is ridiculous? To cry 'racism' at this point and to exclaim 'this is what happens to black men in America'. Uh, they are asked to show ID when they seem to be breaking into a house where they actually live? That's what happens to black men in America? Gosh, I had no idea that they suffer so. The horror. The sheer racist barbarity of being asked to show ID.

Okay now, according to you either a) Gates never claimed racism, or b) there was more provocation to justify the charge of racism. Then what did happen. According to Gates, once again, we have

1. Gates sees a cop on his porch asks him what's up.
2. Is told there was a report of a burglary
3. Tells the cop that he works for Harvard and he lives here
4. Is asked to show ID that proves that
5. goes to his kitchen table to get his IDs
6. then asks for the cops name and badge number

Okay, again, if there was no charge of racism, then why get the badge number? Since Gates did not say in his lawyer's statement, we are only left with the cops' explanation. That Gates thinks there was racism. Gates does not describe the racism, but both Gates and the cop agree that the cop demanded to see ID.

My opinion is not as strident as that of some others. I have not, for example, hurled an invective at people simply because they see things differently. Nor have I attempted to put words into other people's mouths. Again, it would be nice if you would respond to what I have written more than you would respond to things you imagine I might write. "I can just see your response ..."

Sure read between the lines because you know there MUST BE racism in there somewhere.

[hiphopnation]

149. your logic is circular

dizzyingly, so. i dare say "witless". besides this, you've got your facts all screwed up here.

The larger point I want to make to you is you look at this incident and go to exceeding lengths to defend the actions of these cops, their version of the story, that they followed normal procedure to deal with an "unruly citizen" (at least of this particular skin pigmentation), and that the incident isn't the least bit racially tinged. I, on the other hand, look and see what the simplest answer must be (Occam's Razor): at the very least, these cops did not follow procedure, made a series of poor judgment calls, not at all in line with procedure (um, charges dropped) and, what do you know, they're responding to a burglary call where there's a black man at the residence in question. BOOM! Take him downtown.

But here is what I recommend to you: since I can only assume that when you say "Gates' statement" you're referring to the one made by his lawyer, Charles Ogletree, on behalf of his client, please go re-read (initially read?) this statement and review your facts. It looks as though you're cherry-picking "facts" from the police report and various media accounts and disguising them as "Gates' statement." I cry foul.

Here is the statement made by Ogletree on behalf of Gates

BTW, it would be nice if in your next embarrassing, though prolific, defense of racist, immature cops, you would provide some links and cites to your sources. Please?

edit: grammar

on further edit: I wonder what Molly Ivins would have to say about this incident...Hmm

[hfojvt]

151. I think the word you want is 'prolix' rather than prolific

I have read the Ogletree statement a couple of times. What did I get wrong that was substantive?

You say my logic is circular but you do not say how. I am trying to reconcile conflicting reports, figuring that there is some truth and some inaccuracies on both sides. However, the Ogletree statement is very incomplete and clearly slanted to show Gates as a pure innocent.

[hiphopnation]

121. or you any less of a witless nincompoop!

of course, you were there, so you can personally attest to Gates' "jerky" type actions, and all. Please, do elaborate!

[hfojvt]

123. just going by what has been reported

you disagree and don't bother to elaborate yourself.

I never said nor implied that I was there, but by the time you posted this I believe I had elaborated. See post #120. The one just before yours.

Then look up the word 'witless'. :o

[hiphopnation]

132. He acted like an arrogant and pushy bigshot rather than like a gentleman and a scholar.

subject line are your words. I just assumed, since you stated it thus, that you were, you know, there, and all. You write as though you were. But if you weren't, my mistake. Can you please elaborate on how he acted like a pushy bigshot instead of yet another black man in america, the victim of racial profiling?

"witless"...no comment.

[EFerrari]

138. These rationalizations go in one of two ways.

One, he's not important enough to be recognized. Two, he was too self important to treat the cops appropriately.

Both are bullshit and both are the product of some kind of projected envy of successful black men and some kind of boot licking deference to authority. It's nauseating and depressing.

[hiphopnation]

140. and total crickets from the maggot tools parroting the defense of racist cops

i'm waiting for more puling from this apologist...so far, crickets. CRICKETS!!!

[EFerrari]

143. Don't waste your time. Go see the video -- of Skip talking

about Lincoln, race and slavery. http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=283973-1&showVid=true

On Charlie Rose on a lot of topics:

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/37

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/571

[hfojvt]

152. I don't really think of cops as 'authority'

More like public servants doing a difficult job. As a janitor, I myself have some responsibilities and powers in regard to the customers. I can, and have, kicked people out of the building. It's a fine line though, because they are the customer and I want them to have a good time and come back, but sometimes they can be abusive too, and why should I have to take that? The report said he refused to show ID and later said "you don't know who you are messing with". I certainly don't want to mess with the city manager, but if he is spitting on the floor or doing slam dunks (not that he is likely to do either, but those are rules I might enforce) my job is to call him on it, and even the President is not above the law. My sister-in-law has worked dispatch for police who gave speeding tickets to the Governor. (You may know of him Governor Wild Bill Janklow who late ran a stop sign and killed a man on a motorcycle). Gates is a bigshot, but even bigshots should not be saying things like 'you don't know who you are messing with'.

[babylonsister]

58. Lawyer's statement on Gates arrest

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6116202

This brief statement is being submitted on behalf of my client, friend, and colleague, Professor Henry Louis Gates, Jr. This is a statement concerning the arrest of Professor Gates. On July 16, 2009, Professor Henry Louis Gates, Jr., 58, the Alphonse Fletcher University Professor of Harvard University, was headed from Logan airport to his home (in) Cambridge after spending a week in China, where he was filming his new PBS documentary entitled "Faces of America." Professor Gates was driven to his home by a driver for a local car company. Professor Gates attempted to enter his front door, but the door was damaged. Professor Gates then entered his rear door with his key, turned off his alarm, and again attempted to open the front door. With the help of his driver they were able to force the front door open, and then the driver carried Professor Gates' luggage into his home.

Professor Gates immediately called the Harvard Real Estate office to report the damage to his door and requested that it be repaired immediately. As he was talking to the Harvard Real Estate office on his portable phone in his house, he observed a uniformed officer on his front porch. When Professor Gates opened the door, the officer immediately asked him to step outside. Professor Gates remained inside his home and asked the officer why he was there. The officer indicated that he was responding to a 911 call about a breaking and entering in progress at this address. Professor Gates informed the officer that he lived there and was a faculty member at Harvard University. The officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could, and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his Harvard University identification and his valid Massachusetts driver's license to the officer. Both include Professor Gates' photograph, and the license includes his address.

Professor Gates then asked the police officer if he would give him his name and his badge number. He made this request several times. The officer did not produce any identification nor did he respond to Professor Gates' request for this information. After an additional request by Professor Gates for the officer’s name and badge number, the officer then turned and left the kitchen of Professor Gates' home without ever acknowledging who he was or if there were charges against Professor Gates. As Professor Gates followed the officer to his own front door, he was astonished to see several police officers gathered on his front porch. Professor Gates asked the officer's colleagues for his name and badge number. As Professor Gates stepped onto his front porch, the officer who had been inside and who had examined his identification, said to him, "Thank you for accommodating my earlier request," and then placed Professor Gates under arrest. He was handcuffed on his own front porch.

Professor Gates was taken to the Cambridge Police Station where he remained for approximately 4 hours before being released that evening. Professor Gates' counsel has been cooperating with the Middlesex District Attorneys Office, and the City of Cambridge, and is hopeful that this matter will be resolved promptly. Professor Gates will not be making any other statements concerning this matter at this time.

[EFerrari]

62. Gates should probably let this go because suing your own police department

is probably not the best position to put yourself in but, I hope he doesn't.

[Occulus]

63. Because police shouldn't ever be punished when they do wrong

Oh, yeah- and black people shouldn't get "uppity".

:sarcasm:

He was arrested after he proved who he was, that he was on the faculty, and that it was in fact his own home.

What part of "false arrest", "wrongful imprisonment", and "unlawful search" do people here not understand? Not you personally, but certain other usual suspects. He has a legitimate civil claim.

I hope he hands them their asses on a silver platter with a sprig of parsley.

[EFerrari]

65. I'd love to see that. But he has to live there.

I had to make a similar calculation here. If you win, you still lose because your relationship with the cops is officially beyond repair.

[BlooInBloo]

67. People can differ over whether fear of police mistreatment is sufficient reason...

not to stand up to police mistreatment. I suspect he'll feel differently about that issue than you do.

[AspenRose]

71. If nothing else, he has primo material for a documentary

He could really take this and run with it, so to speak

[Occulus]

76. Apparently, he intends to.

I read something about him saying his next project was going to be about racism in law enforcement and the prison system.

Good for him. Maybe he'd like to get in touch with Michael Moore...

[Solomon]

70. Not to mention defamation.

I still can't get over the fact that people think it's okay for cops to mess with a person in their own home. Yes, the cop had a right to investigate, but how the hell do you charge someone with disorderly conduct in their own home when there's no other person living there complaining?

Authoritarianism of some left-wingers scares me as much as the right wing.

It there's one place you should be able to talk shit, it's in your own home.

Another small point. The cop was looking for action. It wasn't even his call. He heard the call to another squad and dashed over there.

When I was a student at Berkeley law school, the same thing happened to me several times. Somebody in the apartment building would call the police if I so much as took the trash out. The cops were nice enough to tell me when they came to my door what they were investigating. ("some strange black guy in the garage") They were satisfied when I showed them my Berkeley law school id, but even so, they still pushed their way through my door and as one was asking me if I minded if they looked around, the other one was going through my bedroom. I told them yes, I do mind. There's no need to search my apartment. Now that you see I live here, what are you looking for? To their credit, they left, but only because I was a student at the law school and they didn't want any trouble out of it.

[Occulus]

72. You were living while black. That's cause enough for some, even here, apparently.

Sorry you had to go through that. Did you ever find out who it was that was calling the police? That person deserved some legal expenses...

[hfojvt]

86. for the record, I don't think it's okay

the arrest was ridiculous. A guy is shouting on his own front porch? Just apologize and leave and he will probably calm down.

But at the same time, I don't think Gates alleged conduct is all that admirable either.

[BlooInBloo]

64. That was a quick change of mind.

[blogslut]

69. Why wouldn't the policeman provide his name and badge number?

What was he afraid of?

And don't get me started on that damned lady across the street.

[quiller4]

75. I would say because he knew he was out of line n/t

[Occulus]

77. The cop didn't realize that his refusal makes him and his department

look even more out of line.

[hiphopnation]

85. i just love the tools who are defending police here

by saying "Well, I don't know who the fuck Henry Lois Gates, Jr. is, why should a cop."

Can we wrap our puny brains around how wrong-headed, ignorant, and fucked up that bare naked police-brutality-apologism is? What difference does it fucking make if you know who the guy is or not? If you produce identification and evidence of your residence, that should have been the end of the incident. It wasn't. Why? Who gives a fuck why? The cops fucked this up royally, and some DUers are lining up in their defense. Wow, just fucking wow.

:puke::nuke:

[Lost-in-FL]

+1, nt

[Lost-in-FL]

90. +1, nt

[EFerrari]

95. It's unbelievable.

:puke:

[Occulus]

100. Yes it is. Utterly reprehensible.

I'd really like some pizza served over this. I mean, how obvious do you have to get?

[Spazito]

105. Okay, I have to tell you...

I laughed out loud when I read your post because, for the first time EVER, there was not ONE "Fuck" in your whole post that didn't belong there, everyone of them were well placed and well used! Great response!

:thumbsup:

[retread]

109. "Why? Who gives a fuck why? " The why is the same in both the incident

and the ardent defense.

[Starry Messenger]

126. I have the one tool in this thread on ignore.

Apparently he's a repeat offender, I don't know why he's still here. There are lots of DU-ers who defend bigotry though, I don't get it either. It's always a nasty shock.

[Evoman]

127. Moreover, it's the same fucking people who always "wait for the police report".

Ever notice that?

Whenever their is a police brutality/misconduct post, it's the same group of cop defenders who say they want to "hear both sides" before they make their amazing decision. They will defend the police, calling for us to not get angry, until they have the official report.

On the other hand, when the police report comes out before the defendant, they will have made up their minds right away. When the other side comes out, they will call it uncredible.

FUCKING IDIOTS. Cop "official reports" are no less fucking bullshit than the reports of other people. They are a whole lot less credible than the report of a renowned scholar like Gates.

[BlooInBloo]

130. But they're soooo responsible! "Reserving judgement" until "all the facts are out"?

Where "all the facts are out" just means "until we can think of anything theoretically possible that isn't racism, at which point we have our cover story".

:rofl:

[Evoman]

134. HA! Exactly.

Geez, colour me fucking suprised that you found a "fact" that proves it wasn't racism or misconduct. And remember....the facts are any bullshit a cop utters.

[backscatter712]

135. Another +1!

The corrupt, bigoted, roid-raged cops can never do wrong in these people's eyes...

[Ilsa]

99. I can imagine after a long life of being looked at suspiciously and treated

like a second-class citizen, the man had had enough. I don't blame him one bit for raising his voice or "exhibiting loud and tumultuous behavior." I get bitching tired of fighting my issues-related battles, and they aren't as personal as his.

[EFerrari]

103. He'd also just flown in from CHINA and he was sick. n/t

[backscatter712]

111. In other words, the cops were caught lying their asses off...

and didn't want to explain themselves before a judge.

Gates should sue their asses.

[Karenina]

116. He has a veritable palette of options here.

This is gonna be good! :popcorn:

[lpbk2713]

124. He'd probably still be in jail if the story hadn't gone public.

(Sorry if this point is mentioned above, but I'm not going to
read through all that just to make one little comment. :eyes: )

[Evoman]

128. And if he wasn't famous as well.

This happens to some other black guy, he will sit in jail for months or years.

[lpbk2713]

129. Exactly

If nothing else, law enforcement knows the value of PR.

[Warren DeMontague]

131. This story reminds me of the 1993 Samuel L. Jackson movie "Amos & Andrew".

Swear to God, it's uncanny.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106266/