Are the moon landings tainted because the technology piggy-backed on the U.S. nuclear program?

[arcadian]

Let's face it, NASA is essentially a military program disguised as a civilian outfit. I'm in agreement with other posters who say that the manned space program was a boondoggle meant to give military and space combat programs a nice spin and a human element so that taxpayers would have no problem funding the exorbitant bills. The program was certainly used to combat perceived Soviet superiority in space and was definitely an aspect of the ramped up Cold War. The vehicles the first astronauts used were in fact dual use, manned flight/nuclear delivery. Very much an off shoot of Eisenhower's 'Atoms for Peace' propaganda program. I think the space program was a propaganda effort that yielded very little in relation to cost. Like another poster said robots could have done it all. But then the U.S. wouldn't have been able to grab all the glory with an unmanned probe and achieved the level of American exceptionalism that our country has enjoyed since.

[FSogol]

1. Military program? The Apollo program was a great accomplishment.

I wish all more of our funds were spend on endeavors such as these.

Edited for spellin'

[dysfunctional press]

4. going to the moon was more about the cold war than space exploration.

nt

[Robb]

22. Indeed.

Which could cause it to fall under the category of international diplomacy. ;)

[arcadian]

5. Yeah, creating technology that wasn't even good for one generation is always a good investment.

:eyes:

[endarkenment]

6. the spin off from apollo includes the web and the pc

other than that you make a fine point.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Yup. There very idea of people using computers, or velcro, or teflon

these days is just laughable.

[redqueen]

12. Teflon was around before the space program.

Lots and lots of other things on the list though:
http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. Ha. I know I was taught that teflon was invented for the space program.

Somebody went and re-wrote history while I wasn't looking. And damned if they didn't do the same with Velcro.

But I'm RIGHT about Tang!

[Robb]

24. Dude, how can you be *wrong* about Tang?

:D

[arcadian]

28. Actually you are wrong about Tang

It wasn't developed for the space program at all, the space program merely helped it's sales.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_(drink)

Tang is a sweet and tangy, orange-flavored, non-carbonated soft drink from the United States. Named after the tangerine, the original orange flavored Tang was formulated by William A. Mitchell<1> for General Foods Corporation in 1957 and first marketed (in powdered form) in 1959.<2>

It was initially intended as a breakfast drink, but sales were poor until NASA began using it on Gemini flights in 1965 (researched at Natick Soldier Systems Center), which was heavily advertised.<3> Since that time, it has been associated with the U.S. manned spaceflight program, so much so that an urban legend emerged that Tang was invented for the space program.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. Oh, crap.

:-(

[FarCenter]

40. Not so much an urban legend as NASA propaganda

The space program was back in the day when everybody watched three TV networks for information.

The government could peddle all kinds of propaganda, because the people had no way of conveniently fact-checking and communicating the facts.

[arcadian]

16. O RLY?

Alan Turing is widely regarded to be the father of modern computer science. In 1936 Turing provided an influential formalisation of the concept of the algorithm and computation with the Turing machine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer

"The hook-loop fastener was invented in 1941 by Swiss engineer, George de Mestral"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velcro

PTFE was accidentally invented by Roy Plunkett of Kinetic Chemicals in 1938. While Plunkett was attempting to make a new CFC refrigerant, the perfluorethylene polymerized in its pressurized storage container, with the iron from the inside of the container acting as a catalyst. Kinetic Chemicals patented it in 1941<1> and registered the Teflon trademark in 1945
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon


Got any other crap you care to peddle?

[PVnRT]

23. Care to respond to post 12?

Probably not.

[arcadian]

39. You want me to pick apart every one of those things? No problem.

First off, if NASA technology had anything to do with the development of that website then it's a sad day for us all.

Second, I don't see one bit of sourced material on that site.

Third, "Join us in our Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence from your personal computer!" Nuff said.

Too fucking easy.

[redqueen]

46. It's only too easy because you're being lazy.

No, that's not a NASA site.


Here's a NASA site for you, go ahead and rip these apart. *snort*
http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/

[arcadian]

53. Wow, a few trinkets here and there, fascinating.

Still the outrageous costs aren't worth the so called "benefits" like your little wetsuit there. Where would humanity be without a Wireless Fluid-Level Measurement System for a boat I can longer afford? Gee, thanks NASA, wait can't talk now, I have to hop in my 3 stage Saturn V rocket ship and blast off to the corner market for a gallon of milk. :eyes:

The sad thing is I know you dug really hard for that website to defend your position. Sad really.

[redqueen]

54. A few trinkets? You really are lazy!

:rofl:

And no, I didn't 'dig really hard'... I did a quick search. *snort*

But hey... thanks for this thread. Most laughs I've had all day! :hi:

[arcadian]

57. A magazine that highlights NASAs achievements that is put out by NASA is hardly a credible source.

It's like CIA.gov highlighting the fact that they are a major sponsor of democracy all over the world on their website. Try again. Try harder. :D

[redqueen]

58. Oh yeah, it's all lies. Year's worth of lies...

I'm sure.

*rofflemayo*

[arcadian]

63. Are you having a dialogue with yourself?

It sure seems like it. Try not putting words in other poster's mouths, I know it's probably hard for you.

[redqueen]

68. Hahaha... okay then what did you mean when you said it wasn't credible?

Hmmmm?

[LanternWaste]

86. The weight of disproof lies with the critic...

The weight of disproof lies with the critic. Give us credible, valid, peer-reviewed articles which fundamentally contradict NASA's.

Then, find valid, peer-reviewed articles which validate your statement. In telling us that NASA is not a credible source places this new burden of proof directly on you.

I'd say, "try again. Try harder" as a joke, but that's just a little too petty and puerile even for me....

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. Sure - check out Redqueen's link above, post #12.

All kinds of useless crap there.

[arcadian]

41. Check out arcadian's response above, post #39.

[dysfunctional press]

31. there's nothing laughable about teflon cookware.

give me my trusty iron skillets any day.

[arcadian]

45. Yeah teflon is hardly an achievement. That shit is poison.

Scratch it and it gets in your food, it's highly toxic.

[Richardo]

2. No. Next question.

It was a technological, logistics and project management triumph on its own merits, regardless of the motivation or origins.

[arcadian]

3. That's cool

I'm starting to see that the <0 threads get more views anyway. ;-)

[LanternWaste]

87. I imagine we all...

"I'm starting to see that the <0 threads get more views anyway"

I imagine we all like to use a little self-validation throughout the day to better convince ourselves that people are taking us seriously rather than face the honest alternatives...

[Richardo]

7. Yes. Everything America does sucks.

There - we'll be quoted on FR now.

[arcadian]

11. Attention whore

:D If you get quoted directly, I'll be jealous.

[endarkenment]

8. Heck why not go back to V1 V2 and slave labor? nt.

[FarCenter]

19. Remember the Vanguard?

The All-American missile developed by the US Navy?

Went nowhere. (Well not anywhere's upwards!)

They had to rehabilitate Werner von Braun and the German rocket scientists at Redstone Arsenal.

[endarkenment]

30. That's my point. Our space program directly benefited from

nazi programs that used slave labor. So if we are going to question the benefits, we might as well look all the way back to the origins, as the origins are tied directly to nazi extermination programs.

[FarCenter]

38. Although it directly benefited from the Nazi program, it probably didn't benefit from the slave labo

I think that the slave labor was used in the manufacture of the V2 rockets.

I don't think that it was used in the research and development program or the development and testing of the prototypes.

[endarkenment]

55. You think wrong.

The nazi missile programs used slave labor.

Mittelbau-Dora (also Dora-Mittelbau and Nordhausen-Dora) was a Nazi Germany labour camp that provided workers for the Mittelwerk V-2 rocket factory in the Kohnstein, situated near Nordhausen, Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelbau-Dora

[FarCenter]

61. Mittelbau-Dora was producing V2s after the designs were complete

But I don't see from the wiki anything about stuff going from Mittelbau-Dora back to the research and development program.

Possibly they did provide feedback on manufacturability, etc., and possibly parts for the testing program.

[endarkenment]

62. Carefully separate the tainted parts of the spoiled meat

and pretend what's left is good to eat.

[Confusious]

94. I'd be careful about talking about spoiled meat

I'm sure if you looked hard enough anything near and dear to your heart has a little taint. That goes for anyone.

I doubt your purity.

A man is not an island unto himself.

[endarkenment]

100. WTF - we took nazi scientists who built and tested missiles

using worker-slaves who died by the thousands in hideous unbelievable conditions for our missile programs, but that is ok because:
1) the scientists weren't slaves
or
2) wiki (which I pointed to for convenience) is not always reliable
or
3) I am not pure.

Have I got that right?

What is this, Nazi Apologist Underground?

[Carl Skan]

79. If you are turning to the Wiki...

...for your information, you don't know enough to have an educated conversation on the subject.

[FarCenter]

82. You must have meant to reply to endarkenment

Who supplied the wiki URL as a reference.

[endarkenment]

101. If somebody here on nazi apologist underground cares

to refute my assertion that the V1/V2 missile program used slave labor please do so.

[suston96]

9. What nonsense.

All technology and science piggybacks. No one is dumb enough to try to reinvent the wheel.

The Boeing 707 was created by the US Air Force as a tanker? and then the technology was given for free to Boeing.

Practically all Research and Development in military technology ended up in civilian hands where we are all enjoying the products of what we paid for as taxpayers funding military and space programs.

Ever heard of Tang?

[havocmom]

13. Is baseball tainted because warfare used to be done with wooden bats?

Technology in and of its self, seems value neutral. It is how it is put to use that is good or bad.

[arcadian]

17. No, but I'd say it is because of it's discriminatory practices against blacks.

[Robb]

27. And by "it" you mean Western Civilization. nt

[arcadian]

32. I'm pretty sure Europe didn't have the same discriminatory practices

At the time when blacks and whites couldn't play baseball together professionally.

[Robb]

35. You're probably right

Europe also sucked at baseball at the time. :eyes:

[arcadian]

42. You asserted that "Western Civilization" was behind the unfair treatment of blacks.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Confusious]

96. Yea, but go back far enough,

and they got the TAINT. The dutch started the slave trade, other European countries ran after them.

[havocmom]

92. Prehaps, but that is not the logic of the OP

[Carl Skan]

14. Of the things it could be tainted by...

...I'd say the heavy dependence on Nazi scientists would be higher.

[havocmom]

93. BINGO

We got there before the Soviets because 'our Nazis were better than their Nazis'

[MannyGoldstein]

15. It Worked. Almost Nobody Got Killed.

The whole world was ecstatic for a day or two, and the Soviets saw they should think twice about messing with us.

I guess I'm not seeing the problem here.

[arcadian]

21. Yeah Gus Grissom was almost a nobody.

On August 1, 1971<1>, Fallen Astronaut was placed on the Moon by the crew of Apollo 15, along with a plaque bearing the names of eight American astronauts and six Soviet cosmonauts who had died:

Theodore Freeman (October 31, 1964, aircraft accident)
Charles Bassett (February 28, 1966, aircraft accident)
Elliott See (February 28, 1966, aircraft accident)
Gus Grissom (January 27, 1967, Apollo 1 fire)
Roger Chaffee (January 27, 1967, Apollo 1 fire)
Edward White (January 27, 1967, Apollo 1 fire)
Vladimir Komarov (April 24, 1967, Soyuz 1 re-entry parachute failure)
Edward Givens (June 6, 1967 automobile accident)
Clifton Williams (October 5, 1967, aircraft accident)
Yuri Gagarin (March 27, 1968, aircraft accident)
Pavel Belyayev (January 10, 1970, disease)
Georgi Dobrovolski (June 30, 1971, Soyuz 11 re-entry pressurization failure)
Viktor Patsayev (June 30, 1971, Soyuz 11 re-entry pressurization failure)
Vladislav Volkov (June 30, 1971, Soyuz 11 re-entry pressurization failure)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_Astronaut

[Warren DeMontague]

26. And I'd bet you every one of them would call your OP what it is: utter neo-luddite gibberish.

"NASA was essentially a military operation"- bullshit.

[arcadian]

34. Speaking for the dead now are we?

How ghoulish and intellectually dishonest.

[Robb]

36. Look who's talking. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

43. No, you are.

I suspect that if Gus Grissom were alive, he'd tell you a thing or two, but that's just a hunch.

Every single astronaut -and most of the early ones were test pilots- going into the Space Program knew the risks to life and limb.

People have always died in the quest for knowledge, science, learning, exploration and other things that uptight neo-puritans fear, hate, and can't stand.

[arcadian]

48. Let me dig out my English to 3rd Grade dictionary.

Let's see... Ahh! Here we are. I know you are but what am I - a juvenile retort used in an argument when the person who speaks that phrase has absolutely nothing concrete to contribute.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. What was your point, then? That the Astronauts didn't know they were risking their lives?

Or are you saying that you, as High Epopt of deciding what the rest of the human race may deem important or meaningful, are better situated to decide whether they sacrificed their lives for a noble goal than they, themselves were?

[LanternWaste]

67. Almost as dishonest (and quite a bit more ghoulish) ...

Almost as dishonest (and quite a bit more ghoulish) as a false premise used to advertise a weak, ineffectual position which denies valid, peer reviewed information.

(Six of one, half a dozen of the other.... at best)

ed: sp

[MannyGoldstein]

50. That's Not What I Said, Of Course

We have no control over the Soviet losses, which were probably higher than what was reported.

Only three of our fatalities were directly due to the space program - three too many, but those who died understood the risks and would have been the very first people to defend the program.

[zipplewrath]

20. Only the early days

It was only the Mercury/Gemini programs that particularly "piggy backed" on ICBM technology. Saturn V and the like were all developed specifically for the space program. And all the capsules were as well, along with the lunar lander. If there was any piggy back going on, according to LBJ, it was the spy satellite programs. The costs of them, and much of the technology for them, was buried in the R&D for the manned space programs, along with some of the robotic missions that preceded the moon landings.

In the end that's the old problem with military spending. Technology development conducted by the military is very often "dual use". DARPA was involved in the early days of internet development. GPS was predominately a military program. One of the first electronic computers was used by the Manhattan program. The truth is much of our culture in general is connected in one way or another to our military/defense history. Wrist watches came into common use after WW I because the army talk folks to use them. Truth is Pershing ran military "schools" over in europe to get the draftees enough skills to read maps, write reports, and generally act as soldiers. It was that experience that began the push for more public education, especially into the "secondary" level (it was not unheard of for rurals students to stop formal education at about 6th grade). West Point was Jeffersons attempt to get a national public college. WW II did more for aircraft development than would have otherwise been done in a couple of decades. Spy satellites taught us how to make research satellites of all manner including hurricane detection and satelites used for animal and plant research. Heck, men learned to use zippers in WW I. And the space program owes as much to the GI bill after WW II than anything else. It educated an entire generation of engineers that were then available to work most of these programs including the space program (just as West Point grads went on to build the roads, canals, and railroads of an expanding country a century earlier).

So no, the landings aren't "tainted". They are just part of the long history of interaction between our technological investment in our military might and the advancement of our technological accomplishments.

[Raskolnik]

29. Nope. Not even a little.

Why are some people incapable of recognizing and appreciating incredible human accomplishment without trying to be the coolest kid in the room?

[SidDithers]

44. +1...

"coolest kid in the room" is an amazingly accurate description.

Sid

[rockymountaindem]

33. Not at all. I love the record of the space program. Having our flag on the moon makes me proud

to be an American. Go ahead and judge me.

[arcadian]

64. Guess what? The Soviets put their flag there first and there are more of them.

[Raskolnik]

66. Really? What was the cosmonaut's name? n/t

[arcadian]

71. Unmanned probe.

[Raskolnik]

74. Funny, doesn't sound like a Russian name.

What did he look like?

[NickB79]

78. Crashing into the moon and being smashed to pieces is a weird way to plant a flag

Those crazy Russians :crazy:

[rockymountaindem]

81. Ooooh, robots

Like they count. What if Columbus sent a robot across the Atlantic?

[JVS]

83. As a proletarian, I am proud that our red flag stands there!

[baldguy]

47. PCs and the Internet are technology which are leftovers from the Cold War too.

Does it make you icky thinking about that?

The problem with Apollo was that after we got to the Moon we had given no thought as to what to do with it.

[Ilsa]

49. "...nuclear delivery..." ??? We didn't use nuclear for space. Or did you mean

it was part of a bigger experiment in missile technology to be used to fire nuclear missles?

"The program was certainly used to combat perceived Soviet superiority in space and was definitely an aspect of the ramped up Cold War." -- I'm fine with that statement.

[redqueen]

51. Yeah but the question is does that make it "tainted"? (nt)

[arcadian]

56. Atlas, Redstone and Titan launch vehicles were all dual use.

They are pretty much the exact same design in the manned missions as they were to deliver nuclear weapons.

[Ilsa]

80. I stand corrected. Screwed that one up, didn't I? nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

52. Told ya we should have gone with the hemp-fueled boosters. n/t

[MilesColtrane]

73. With enough hemp, you don't need the boosters.

[DireStrike]

59. No.

Exploration and the advancement of science, even if it has weapons implications, are always good things.

There is no way to advance scientifically without affecting power.

[fujiyama]

98. Agree - scientific research and discovery itself cannot be blamed

What people do with that research is of course another thing altogether.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

60. No. This is idiotic. n/t

[theboss]

65. We should never do nothin' because America sucks

The French should have gotten their first.

[Confusious]

95. They were busy turning their nose up at it

Because it wasn't made of brie!

[NickB79]

70. All metal-hulled ships are tainted because they're derived from the Monitor battleship

Back to wooden ships and sails, I say! Oh wait, those were used for war too......


Back to birch-bark canoes!!!!

[arcadian]

76. That is not a very good analogy.

The space race and the missile gap were simultaneous.

[Odin2005]

72. WTF? Hell no.

People who bash manned space flight are unromantic simpletons with no imagination, sense of wonder, and no abillity to think about the distant future of Humanity.

[VOX]

75. There's no end to the "is this or that tainted because...?" game. Everything's tainted by something.

-U.S. space program is tainted by employing von Braun and his team of German scientists who built quality rockets for Hitler.
-U.S. and Allied victory in WWII is tainted by use of A-Bomb and internment of Japanese Americans.
-U.S. = slavery
-U.S. = genocide of Native Americans
-Etc., etc., ad infinitum.

[MicaelS]

77. Not one fucking bit

It if wasn't for the space program, we wouldn't have all types of communication satellites. We wouldn't have weather satellites, which have allowed much better forecasting of the weather, especially hurricanes. The number of lives saved by those two types of satellites alone more than offsets all the negatives of nuclear weapons or their delivery systems.

The harsh truth which you either fail or refuse to recognize is that much of humankind's technological progress is directly related to warfare. We are a warlike species. No amount of wish fulfillment or hatred of the military will erase that. You can take an evolutionary viewpoint or a religious viewpoint. One of the first things humans did when we acquired rudimentary tools to kill animals for food, was to use those same tools to kill other humans beings. Just like in the beginning of 2001. Then there's the Old Testament when God told the Israelites to kill their enemies, they did. Men, women, children and animals, they raised the walls of "cities" and salted the earth. Men make tools to create and then uses a variation of those same tools or technology to kill other people.

We didn't get to be the dominant life-form on the planet by sitting in the shade, snacking on leaves, singing "Kumbaya My Lord". We got here by the fiercest predator this planet has ever seen. Other predators have teeth, claws, horns and tusks. We do not, so we offset other predators' advantages those by being tool / weapons makers and users.

[Bluenorthwest]

84. If you think a robot could have done what was done

you don't even know what was done. If it was a propaganda effort, they did it poorly, because what got sold was human will and scientific exploration. There are many easier, better ways to make for national pride, the most profitable being warfare. And winning. Going to the moon did not feel like an American event, but like a global event. By the time the Eagle landed, the element of 'space race' was long over, the USSR having not kept pace for over a decade. It was not 'let's beat them there' because they were not going to get there. That was very clear. Note, they did not get there. They really didn't even try.
The 'space race' hype is something I saw on a Happy Days episode about Sputnik. The Apollo missions I saw first hand, and 'space race' was just not a part of the story as I was told it as it happened, told by the media and educational system, as well as directly by NASA. Never heard a thing about Russia, nor about America being 'exceptional' or superior. I heard that science was the future, that the world would join to explore, and petty differences would become a thing of the past as we reached for the stars. That is the story as I heard it as it unfolded. A corny story, but certainly not the one you are telling today. I think you refer to one or two months in the late 1950's. Or a film about that time, to be more precise.

[Fearless]

88. Better yet... who cares?

[cherokeeprogressive]

89. I'm actually shocked that it took so long for someone to finally say out loud

what no one else has been thinking for over forty years.

:crazy:

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

90. Only to someone who wants to bend reality. Rockets capable of getting into space

would have happened any way. Is the scalpel or steak knife tainted by it association with the dagger? Come on...

[saltpoint]

97. Wonder's well is far deep into the earth and spans the heavens.

[fujiyama]

99. Of course a big part of it was propaganda

Competition is the mother of many great discoveries and inventions.

And much of the science piggy backs on each other. It isn't done in a bubble. And if it's done that way, it leads to time being wasted. Why else did the Soviet Union have spies during the Manhattan Project?

NASA's aims were civilian in nature - discovery and exploration of outer space. Of course, that doesn't mean government agencies don't interact with each other. Much of NASA's research has been used for military applications... Why else would NASA require a security clearance?

The Soviets drove the US to innovate. We've arguably become lazier and less driven than during the Cold War. Of course, part of that is also due to Reagan era anti intellectualism infecting America all throughout.

However, all that taken into consideration doesn't change the fact that the moon landing itself was an incredible moment for scientific progress and the ability of mankind to accomplish a monumental and seemingly impossible task after setting a goal.