" It's not a big screen tv"

[guitar man]

I have a new friend I have made recently and up until today we have not discussed anything of a political nature, I have no idea what his politics are and up to this point really haven't cared. He's a super nice intelligent guy and I have enjoyed riding motorcycles and hanging out with him a lot.

Then out of the blue this morning, I got this email from him.

Hey Les,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on socialized medicine, pro or con. Not looking to condemn or criticize either way, just interested in hearing some different viewpoints.

Rick

So I thought about it all morning and sent him this reply, just thought I would share it with you all.

Hey Rick,

I'm glad you asked, so here goes:

As far as healthcare is concerned, it's not a big screen tv. It's not a new boat, a Rolex or a pair of designer sneakers. It's something that every American needs and every day, fewer and fewer of us can afford it. In fact, if the premium on my insurance plan through my employer goes up at the same rate as it did last year, my family will join the ranks of the uninsured because that will hike it out of reach for us. It will be something we simply can't afford anymore. But on the other hand, it's something we can ill afford to live without. That's one hell of a catch 22.

Now the pundits and pols on the right are screaming bloody murder about taxpayer subsidized healthcare (along with the help of some blue dog "Democrats"). It's awfully damn strange to me these bastions of "fiscal responsibility" uttered nary a peep about spending a trillion dollars on a war in Iraq that was completely unnecessary.Funny how that works that way.

Now I'm not going to go into whether healthcare is a "right" or not, that's a discussion for the congress and the courts. I'd like to think that we can reform our healthcare system so that everybody gets the care they need and families don't lose their homes trying to pay for it, not because of "right vs privelege", but because of right versus wrong. Because it is something that a decent civilized society should do. I truly hope we are still a decent civilized society but I truly have my doubts lately.

I know you wouldn't want to see your family suffer and go without needed care just because you fall on hard times, but ask yourself this. Would you want to see that happen to my family? Would you want to see it happen to any of your other friends and neighbors? If the answer to those questions is no, then I can't imagine how we could call ourselves decent people and try to justify letting it happen to ANYBODY. Over what? Money?

Well, I'm starting to ramble and I've said all I have to say, so I'll wrap it up. Just remember, it's not a 52" big screen plasma HDTV, or a Rolex, or a hot tub or even a new deck for your house. It's something we all need, as a country.


Later,

Les

[tridim]

1. You damn socialist. nt

[guitar man]

2. screw you pinko!!

:rofl: :hi:

[Kid Dynamite]

40. Hey Guitar Man

what would it take for us to be a truly civilized society? It doesn't really stop at health care, does it..

I'm asking you because I think your insight that "its not a flatscreen" can be extended to a great many "issues" that are only issues in the sense that there are people who value their own conveniences and luxuries about the lives of other people. You have a knack for presenting things obviously, so something to think about. What strikes me is that it is hard to turn back from making a much more radical and systemic critique if you follow the logic you've laid out. Your Nietzsche quote, or its more famous variant, seems quite a propos of that..

[guitar man]

46. I'd say

We need to seriously re-examine our priorities. It's time to end the credit card empire building and start taking care of our own people again. It's time to bring the robber barons to heel. And most importantly, it's time to bring the real criminals to justice. Wanna make me believe we're a civilized nation? Investigate, arrest, try and convict the criminals from the Bush administration.

[Kid Dynamite]

48. Try the criminals, sure

Yes, but the next batch of criminals are already on a robbing spree..

To be honest, that line of thinking is much tamer than the radical talk that it is fronted by. If we say "the corruption is endemic to the rotten system", then the response of "lets round up all the criminals" rings hollow as anything but window dressing..IMO

Feels like we're beating around the bush to me

[Nederland]

3. How you going to make it cheaper?

At this point, even Obama ha conceded that reforms will result in spending more on healthcare, not less.

[guitar man]

6. maybe the wealthiest can pony up something

for a change. They have had the ride of their life starting with Reagan's "trickle down" all the way up until this minute. And all the while us common working folk have taken it in the ass more and more every day. The utter destruction of everything my trade unionist Grandfather and Teamster Father and their brothers and sisters built for us is what has led us to where we are. And all the time, that small percentage at the top has steadily grown fatter from our losses. Enough.

[Nederland]

8. I see

So you want better healthcare, and you want somebody else to pay for it. Is that pretty much your position?

[guitar man]

12. I don't mind paying what I can afford

But they are about to bankrupt me trying to stay insured and I suspect there are many many others like me who are working as hard as we can, earning all we can and are still going to be crushed under the rising costs. There is nothing right, fair or decent about that.And I wouldn't mind so much paying what I'm paying if I just didn't have to get into a fight with the insurance company every time I submit a bill to get them to pay it.

[Kid Dynamite]

14. we've payed for it many times over

not only in coin but in lives

You want others to suffer because you are afraid that it *might* possibly take a few bucks out of your pocket? Is that pretty much your question?

[Nederland]

16. No

I want to make healthcare cheaper my eliminating insurance companies that add absolutely no value to the equation. Unfortunately, Obama will not do this.

[Kid Dynamite]

17. I don't see how this is consistent with what you said above

I guess I am confused

[Nederland]

26. Summary

Post #3: Obama's reforms will make health care more expensive.

Post #8: Having other people pay for better healthcare is neither fair nor a solution to the real problem.

Post #16: The real problem is insurance companies, but Obama will not address this.


What's the confusion?

[Kid Dynamite]

27. This is a misdirection

Separate from the issue of health care, you are advocating for maintaing the privilege of the wealthy because it would be unfair to make them "pay more".

[Nederland]

28. No its not, it's common sense

We are "reforming" healthcare so that all people can get coverage. You can accomplish this in one of two ways: you can make up for the additional cost by making the system more efficient, or you can increase taxes. Given a choice between making the system more efficient and keeping it the same, I'll pick making it more efficient. Choosing the latter simply because you want to stick to the rich is just asinine.

[Kid Dynamite]

30. Only you and no one else have framed it as an either/or

and you've done so for the express purpose of depicting higher taxation of the wealthy as "asanine".

[Nederland]

50. Of course its not either or

But simple math tells you you can cover everybody without raising taxes. If the US system were efficient and we spent the same per capita as other developed countries, we could easily pay to cover all those not covered today. If you can get to universal coverage without raising taxes, why not do it?

[Beetwasher]

36. That Will Be The End Result

It's not Obama that will not do this, it's Congress.

Reality is reality. The insurance companies are very well entrenched right now. The "robust public option" is the lever to begin to pry them loose. Once that's established, the insurance companies will become less and less relevant and become more of a "premium" type supplemental H/C service, like Fed Ex and UPS is to the USPS. Or at least the SMART insurance companies will become that. They will adapt or die because once an effective public option is available for your basic healthcare, there's no turning back.

In the long run, H/C will NOT be more expensive, it will be more efficient because we will cut out the middle man.

[Canuckistanian]

34. Yes! That's exactly how it should work

When I need health care, somebody else pays for it.

And when THEY need health care, I'LL pay for it.

See how it works?

[Nederland]

37. Except that's not how it works

Half of us pay, the other half don't.

[Spazito]

47. From your perspective, which half pays? Which half doesn't? n/t

[Nederland]

49. It's not a matter of "perspective"

It's a matter of fact. Some people have insurance and some don't. The system needs to change so that everyone has access to healthcare.

[Spazito]

51. Your exact post was...

"Half of us pay, the other half don't."

Again I ask, who are the "half of US pay" and who are "the other half" who don't?

[Nederland]

52. You'll have to excuse me...

...if I don't know all their names. :eyes:

[Spazito]

53. LOL, even you have to admit that is a pretty pathetic...

excuse for evading the question. I understand why you don't want to spell out who the "us" is in your post and who "the others" are and I am sure other DUers understand as well.

[Nederland]

54. Honestly I don't

How should I answer the question? Are you thinking that I'd say that black people don't pay and white people do? That's nonsense. To a certain extent people with jobs that have health insurance pay, and those without don't. Granted, some people buy their own health insurance, but that is rare and expensive. We have an obligation to create a system whereby everyone pays for healthcare that is affordable. If you tak eout the insurance companies profit, that is completely doable.

[mike_c]

41. that is such a shortsighted perspective....

Americans ALREADY pay much more for health care than most other similar countries, so by any reasonable measure, we're ALREADY paying for the best health care in the world-- but we're not getting nearly as good a deal or the access to health care as those other countries that are paying less.

We're already paying for it-- why can't we get it? Because our system siphons off HUGE proportions of health care expenditures to enrich the investors of insurance companies, for profit providers, and pharmaceutical companies. I want what WE as a nation are already paying for, not some pie-in-the-sky socialist wet dream.

Single payer universal health care would SAVE billions of dollars annually, not cost more.

on edit-- reading that entire sub-thread, I suspect we're in substantial agreement.

[Kid Dynamite]

7. I think that is a rhetorical question

there is no question that the only way to make health care affordable is to remove the profiteering of private insurers. As you say, even Obama, who opposes doing that, acknowledges it to be true.

[Nederland]

9. Agreed

The only way to make healthcare cheaper is to take out the middleman, who in this case are the insurance companies. Unfortunately, Obama won't do that.

[Kid Dynamite]

10. For it to be unfortunate

fortune would have to be somehow involved. Obama is the leader of a country that is entirely founded and based on profits. It hardly seems plausible that someone in his position could undo such a thing let alone be inclined to.

[hfojvt]

22. it's not Obama that won't do that

it's Congress. If Obama tried to push for HR 676 it would never make it past the Senate no matter how much political capital he spent. We will be lucky if the public option makes it past the Senate.

[trotsky]

18. The United States pays far more on health care per capita...

than any other industrialized nation on earth. I *highly doubt* a public system is going to cost MORE.

[LeftyMom]

39. I suspect you're right.

As I've posted before, things my insurer does trying to cut corners wind up costing a huge amount of extra money. For one thing, they have a very small list of approved doctors, all of them horrible (no good doctor will accept their horrible reimbursement rates, I suspect, or to make money at their rates one has to assembly line patients through and provide substandard care even if one is normally a very good doctor) and with very long wait lists for an appointment.

A few months back I had a series of recurrent ear infections. Each time I dutifully called my "primary care physician" (who I have never actually met, because of the long wait for an appointment) and each time I was told that the wait for an appointment was several months long, and to go to the ER.

Now any number of doc in a box places I drove past could have treated my ear infection competently for probably about $100. My insurer would not cover any of them, because they were not on the list. So I went to the ER, waited and my insurer probably paid $500 or more for a very nice nurse practitioner to spend two minutes shining a light in my ear, confirming that it was inflamed and writing me a prescription.

Under a public plan that reimbursed any GP at a standard rate for looking at an ear infection, there would be no need for me to go to the ER during daylight hours for such a silly thing. So the state insurer would pay 20% or less of what my insurer paid for the treatment of my ear infection. As I said, this was a recurring thing (never had one before, then three this year, I was not amused) so this would amount to probably $1300 savings just on my ear infection expenses in the first quarter of 2009. Multiply that by a few million people facing similar stupidity and it adds up.

[Mythsaje]

19. As they stand, sure...

A Frankenstein monster of a "system," patched together out of old ideas long for the grave. Single Payer would be cheaper. This nonsense? Hardly.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. I'd really like to see his reply. You did good, you ole commie!

[guitar man]

20. thanks :)

Just got his reply

Les

Thanks for the response. I happen to agree with you. I'm pretty much non-political and a registered independent when I do vote so sometimes I don't understand all the hoopla from one side or the other on a given issue. All I do know is I am in the same boat as you, trying to work hard enough to make a living and provide for my family and providing healthcare is becoming next to impossible. I don't see how public healthcare could be all that bad of a thing, but I have a cousin that acted like he wanted to shoot me when I mentioned it so I thought I would get some other people's take on it

thanks again

Rick

[sinkingfeeling]

23. Excellent. What we want to hear about 200 million times!!

[guitar man]

24. yep

And it's good to hear it from someone who doesn't have a dog in the political hunt. ;)

[gratuitous]

5. Not a bad response at all

On the follow-up, it's possible that he'll mention "bureaucrats interfering with the doctor-patient relationship." I say this because he's already characterized it as "socialized medicine." Simply remind him that currently we have insurance companies getting in the middle of the doctor-patient relationship, and they have a financial interest at stake in denying preventive and palliative care. Of the two, bureacrats and insurance companies, I'd much rather have the "meddling" done by someone who doesn't stand to put money in his or her pocket by saying "no."

[cdsilv]

11. We need socialize health CARE not socialized health INSURANCE....n/t

[FrenchieCat]

13. Great letter. I would have added that we all pay for everyone's health care now anyways....

including the uninsured...so there will be no change in that regard, just that prices will start to come down.

Key phrase = We already are paying for healthcare, period.

[JimWis]

15. Very well written response. Good job.

[hfojvt]

21. I didn't like the title

but 15 R's made me think it was worth reading. Very well stated, although you could have mentioned the esoteric fact that other countries like Canada and Switzerland are getting good care at much less costs than we are already paying. So 'socialized medicine' seems to be working for the rest of the civilized world.

On second thought though, maybe not, since the RWNM has pounded away with stories about how the Canadian system does not work!!

[guitar man]

25. now that you mention it

I don't like it either. Good thing I don't work as an editor for a publishing company. :rofl:

thanks for the response :hi:

[dysfunctional press]

29. something else that you might want to address-

seeing as he chose the term 'socialized healthcare', is that while the right goes on about not wanting a government bureaucrat between them and their doctor- they don't seem to mind the corporate bureaucrats and bean-counters that do the same thing, and with a 'for-profit', rather than 'for health' motive.

[bertman]

31. No Shit!!! Great job, guitar man.

Recommend.

:applause: :applause:

[JNelson6563]

32. Nicely done.

:toast: Good reply.

Julie

[progressoid]

33. A healthy country = a happy country.

k/r

[Beetwasher]

35. You Nailed It, Bud!

:thumbsup:

[ColbertWatcher]

38. Get off my forum!

GET OFF MY FORUM!

[hfojvt]

42. ?? I don't get it

and often.

[ColbertWatcher]

43. Here is a link from Crooks And Liars that should explain it ...

... http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/glenn-beck-screams-little-girl-when-c

Oh, and if you google "Glenn Beck get off my phone," well ... http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=glenn+beck+get+off+my+phone&aq=0&oq=glenn+beck+get+o&aqi=g1&fp=5lFJmpjL11Q

[guitar man]

44. ROFL!!

:rofl: +1 :thumbsup:

[Vidar]

45. Good reply.