A DUer has experienced a personal tragedy.

[kentuck]

Just so you know. She has posted in the Health Forum. Our sympathies to her at this time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x65111

[spindrifter]

1. Kick this one. Perhaps it will save others.

[xultar]

2. So senseless. $3.00 over the limit, that is fucking unbelievable.

[MercutioATC]

9. ...and if they raised the limit $3.00, somebody ELSE would be "just $3.00 over the limit".

It's very unfortunate, but ANY limit will exclude somebody by a very small margin.

...and, since we live in a world of limited resources, there will always be limits.

[karynnj]

13. That's why the Kennedy proposal takes

the people just above the medicaid level and subsidizes most of the cost - then gradually tapers the subsidy out at 4 times the poverty level. I never understood why there were thresholds where under it you got it and above it nothing - here, there would be no $3 above - because the increase in what you pay is gradual.

[MercutioATC]

29. And then there would be somebody who had 3 too few dollars in their pocket.

I completely agree that phase-ins (or phase-outs, depending on which directing you're coming from) make a hell of a lot more sense than absolute cut-offs.

My point is that there is always going to be somebody who is "just out of reach".

[karynnj]

31. The three dollars above the limit has a totaly different effect

I think the person making $3 above the limit would be required to pay only some fraction of that $3. (The whole point of a taper is to eliminate the point of discontinuity.) The difference now is that you go from qualifying and getting medicaid free (though their are co-pays etc) and having to buy open market insurance for thousands of dollars.

I agree with you that any threshold will always have another set who just missed it. Tapering off the amount given rather than abruptly cutting it off is the obvious mathematical solution. In the $3 over case, the difference is at a level that anyone would make a prudent economic decision and spend the small amount they need to get the insurance - where under the current plan, they can't afford thousands of dollars/

[MercutioATC]

32. You may be right. THIS person may not have died.

....and making sensible changes such as phase-ins could create the same benefits to a lot of other people.


My point is that, regardless of how you define benefits, there will always be somebody who "just misses it".

[karynnj]

33. I agree that there might be someone, above the free limit,

but within the interval where subsidies are given to taper the cost or above the 4 times poverty level, who conclude that the cost is too great and they take the risk. Anything other than a British type single payer system will have some people who do this - even with mandates. The British style system would in effect take that choice a way from those people. They WOULD pay because the payment would be done as increased taxes. (Because we started with an employer paid system, where many people once paid nothing and still get a large part paid, many are not in favor of single payer, though it is a better option overall.)

[truedelphi]

37. That is incredibly wise, although not that difficult to figure out.

A very good proposal by someone who gets it.

[Withywindle]

16. Yeah, and so what?

With a country where a useless eater like John McCain can own 8 mansions, there is no excuse for ANYONE being allowed to die because of money.

[MercutioATC]

20. I disagree. Even with the "panacea" of single-payer, there will be rationing...

...as there MUST be.

Our society will not support the kind of wealth redistribution that would be required to provide first-rate medical care for all...nor should it. I'm in favor of universal access to basic preventative and medical care, just as I am in favor of universal access to a quality basic education...but just as some students can afford Harvard and some can not, some patients will be able to afford the best medical care and some will not.

(I'm not saying that access to the absolute best medical care was the issue in the OP, I'm addressing your statement that "there is no excuse for ANYONE being allowed to die because of money")

[Withywindle]

22. Right now, we are divided between those who can afford HC of any kind and those who can afford NONE.

We live in a country where people who have been in accidents and are injured but conscious beg bystanders NOT to call an ambulance, because that will mean tens of thousands of dollars of debt.

We live in a country where people who have been paying hundreds of dollars a month to insurance companies for YEARS still getting turned down for procedures and suddenly getting dropped when they need the care they've already paid for.

Hell, even though my health is fairly decent, I'm still "uninsurable" because I was already in treatment for depression when I lost my job. Where people who think their jobs might be insecure (which is most people), even if they have good coverage, will put off getting checkups because they don't want a "pre-existing condition" on their records just in case they get laid off.

Where there are people who work 60 hours a week and still have no coverage at all.

I have correspondents in a lot of countries I've visited, and even working-class people in some countries folks here consider "third-world" (Brazil, Thailand) are absolutely HORRIFIED and outraged when they hear medical-industry stories afflicting people considered middle-class here.

Rationing is fine. We do have more than our fair share of wealthy hypochondriacs who seem to go to the doctor recreationally just because they can, and they read some symptoms on a web site and managed to convince themselves they have Ultra-Rare One-in-a-Million's Tropical Crotchrot Disease because they're just that special. Fuck them. But that is so frakkin' minor compared to the numbers of people who have died of conditions that would be perfectly treatable if the price for the coverage didn't exceed many years' salaries and there was no real trustworthy help available.

I was once a backpacking student in Amsterdam and I got sick. 20 years ago. There was a clinic there that saw me, gave me intense antibiotics that WORKED, and they barely even asked my name, much less for "insurance." I put the equivalent of about $10 in their donation jar. The Netherlands has not been bankrupted by this sort of thing, multiplied exponentially over the decades; quite the contrary, their standard of living is still higher than ours overall.

[MercutioATC]

23. We're on the same page.

I absolutely believe that we should have basic access to health care for EVERYBODY whether it's a "right" or not...because it makes sense.

What concerns me are the people who seem to believe that everybody has the "right" to top-shelf care...whether they can afford it or not.

We have the ability to provide basic access to everybody. We have neither the ability nor the responsibility to provide "the best" for everybody.

[whathehell]

25. So you think some people SHOULD be allowed to die because of money?

Are you comparing the right to go to Harvard with the right to live?

[MercutioATC]

26. Absolutely

More specifically, though, it's not what "should" happen as much as a function of what is realistic.

Top-shelf access to health care for all is not something we can afford. Those who can afford to pay for it individually will generally have a lesser risk of dying from a given malady.

In the same way, a Harvard education for all is not something we can afford, even though those who attend Harvard generally have a better chance of financial prosperity.

It's important to provide basic access to health care for all, just as it's important to provide basic access to a good education for all ...but the reality is that those with money (and can pay for supplemental health care and education) will get better services.

In a perfect world with unlimited resources, we could all get the best of everything. Ours is not such a world, so providing good basic services to all is acceptable for now.

[whathehell]

27. First of all, I don't think access to Harvard is comparable with "access" to Life itself.

They're simply not comparable values.

When you say "we" I wonder who you are referring to...I won't quarrel with the reality of THIS greedy society, but I wonder if this is "reality" in any or all of the countries with Single Payer.

The fact that you think it "should" be this way sounds less than humane.

[MercutioATC]

28. Not entirely, but in the context that I made the comparison, I believe it's reasonable.

I'm not comparing a "right to life" with a "Right to a Harvard education".

I'm saying that, in light of the fact that we have limited resources, it's more important to provide a solid basic education (and solid basic access to health care) to everybody than it is to try to give everybody a Harvard education (get everybody top-shelf access).

I use "we" as a label for this country. I think you'll find that any country with a universal-access (whether single-payer or not) system, that works financially, operates much as I've suggested. There's a basic level of coverage and those with the ability to pay have the option of getting supplemental services.

Definitions of "humane" differ. This analysis might not meet some people's definition of "humane", but I think it's realistic.

[havocmom]

3. Think I will read that one to a Baucus staffer tomorrow morning

Thanks for plugging that thread, kentuck.

[closeupready]

36. That is an excellent idea. They need to understand the consequences of what they are pushing for.

n/t

[Mythsaje]

4. I know... that's SO fucked up. n/t

[JohnnyLib2]

5. Thanks for the alert.

Horrible, horrible story.

[havocmom]

6. kentuck, I'm gonna read that post to the Baucus staffer who picks up the phone tomorrow

Thanks for posting link

[kentuck]

18. Baucus needs to start caring more about the people...

and less about the insurance companies.

[rhiannon55]

7. This is a story our president needs to hear.

I believe he sincerely wants every American to have access to the heath care they need, and he's trying to make it happen. But the repukes and blue-dog democrats are so beholden to the corporations that make huge profits in the current system that they are fighting him every inch of the way. Every story like this only deepens his resolve. He is an empathetic man and has a conscience. He understands and relates to ordinary people and, like us, knows that this is a tragedy that should not have happened.


edited because my fingers were moving faster than my editing eye.

[Autumn]

8. Thank you so

much for posting this.:hug:

[JimWis]

10. Kick.

[spindrifter]

11. And apparently people in need from Idaho come

to Washington to get our state's coverage--The reason we need universal health care in this country.

[City Lights]

12. Thanks for the link, kentuck.

Recommended.

[Ardent15]

14. K & R

[mmonk]

15. And I just saw a McConnell interview talking about others

dying under the Canadian system. They've got those lies in full swing.

[Maru Kitteh]

17. As I keep saying to the purity or nothing contingent among us - PEOPLE ARE DYING we have to act NOW

For the most part on DU we all want single payer, but it will NOT BE single payer. Yet. We have to take some first steps. And we have to get people some coverage. And we have to do it now. People are dying.

[eridani]

21. I will not support any plan that kills sick people even faster

We still don't know whether the public option will be like Massachusetts or not. If it is, you've just speeded up the killing of sick people.

[Maru Kitteh]

34. And just how fucking fast do you think ABSOLUTELY NO HEALTHCARE kills people?

Let me answer that for you. Faster than any imperfect system ever could.

But let me guess. You and your kids are probably safe right? Fuck that. Mine are not.

[eridani]

44. You seem to be mistaking insurance for CARE

Putting the poor and sick into an MA-style system will kill us all off a lot faster. When my COBRA expires, I lose my doctor of 20 years and won't be eligible for Medicare for another 2 1/2 years, so you might say I have some skin in the game.

[upi402]

19. Her Senator, Maria Cantwell (D) WA is against Obama's health care program

and against all working class dolts, even the idiots that think she's a Democrat. I'm so disgusted.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. In fairness, she is officially uncommitted.

But given what we know now, I don't understand how anyone with a conscience can be uncommitted.

[enigmatic]

24. This is terrible

My sincere condolences.

[graywarrior]

30. Grrrrr, this is just wrong wrong wrong.

[Hello_Kitty]

38. I feel like PMing this to the knucklehead

Who, when I pointed out that my UI benefits when I was unemployed for a year were a hair too high to qualify for Medicaid, lit into me. She accused me of wanting to cut benefits for poor people. It was bizarre.

[tomreedtoon]

39. Nothing will get through to the Blue Cross Democrats.

About the only thing that might help would be...and I am NOT being sarcastic here, I am being as serious as AIDS about this...

...if you could take the bodies of one of the people who were killed by this nonsense and place the corpse in the Congressman's chair, just before he arrives there after a nooner with his mistress.

They do not see us as people. They don't give a damn. The only way to change them is to take their nose and rub it in the results of their actions.

[Oldtimeralso]

40. K & R

My condolences and prayers to Stargazer99.
I hope those SOB's in congress that want to stall or block universal health care(be they gop's or Dem's)die soon and rot in HELL!

[AtheistCrusader]

41. The original thread was on the top five greatest all morning.

Till it got moved.

[Bennyboy]

42. MAKE THIS STORY GO VIRAL!

Get on it.
really send it right now to Obama in the healthcare stories section of his site.

This is jsut horrible. I am embarrassed right now for this country. this should never ever happen.

[Kajsa]

43. This is fucking criminal,

no too ways about it.

And no other way I can think of right
now to say it.

:grr:

[Hissyspit]

45. Stargazer99 has posted a follow-up post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6125974