Dr. David Himmelstein says Dr. Howard Dean is lying about the Obama health care proposal.

[Karmadillo]

http://www.singlepayeraction.org/blog/?p=1204

July 22, 2009
On Single Payer, Himmelstein Says Howard Dean is a Liar
Filed under: News — russell @ 9:40 am
Dr. David Himmelstein says Dr. Howard Dean is lying about the Obama health care proposal.

Himmelstein is a founder of Physicians for a National Health Program and is an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School.

Dean is the former head of the Democratic National Committee and is making the television talk show rounds promoting Obama’s health care reform.

Himmelstein says that Dean is portraying Obamacare as something it isn’t.

It isn’t single payer – as Dean said it is.

And it doesn’t give Americans the option to opt into a single payer system – Medicare – as Dean said it does – most recently last week on Democracy Now.

“He’s a liar,” Himmelstein told Single Payer Action yesterday.

Dean told Democracy Now’s Amy Goodman last week that Obama’s public option plan is best thought of as Medicare or single payer.

“For the average American, they should best think of it as Medicare,” Dean said.

According to Dean, under the Obama plan, the American people will have a choice to opt into a single payer system.

“Look, you decide for yourself,” Dean said. “We’re going to allow people under sixty-five to sign up for what people over sixty-five have. And you make the choice.”

more...

[madfloridian]

1. Yes, that group is out to discredit him.

They want NO compromise.

Funny but when I post about women's rights and not caving in...I get attacked here.

But they are of the mind that everyone but them is wrong, and it is going to hurt our chances.

[Karmadillo]

5. I'm not sure Dean is helping himself when he makes those statements. If the quotes are accurate,

it's hard to see that he's speaking truthfully. If we're going to compromise (and starting out with a compromised position was not the way to go, at least to me), we shouldn't be mischaracterizing the compromise. This simply doesn't seem accurate:

http://www.singlepayeraction.org/blog/?p=1204

Dean said that the Obama plan will give Americans the choice “between whether they would like a single payer for themselves and their families or whether they would not.”

[madfloridian]

7. The plan Obama once spoke of WOULD do that.

This is ridiculous nitpicking.

[Karmadillo]

13. But it doesn't seem to do that now. It's hard for me to see where Dean is justified

in saying it's like single-payer.

[madfloridian]

17. Medicare is like single payer.

And he is trying to push that kind of option.

Go ahead and call him a liar and discredit him.

Way to go.

[Karmadillo]

18. Is the Obama plan, the plan Dean was talking about, like Medicare?

nt

[EFerrari]

100. He isn't. I had this same argument last week and it was correctly

pointed out to me that he was not being accurate when he made the claim that the public option is like or is single payer -- which he has now done on more than one occasion.

At a minimum, he needs to dial back his language.

[Kid Dynamite]

12. Dean is claiming there is no compromise

because, according to him, people are getting exactly what they want. When other people point out that is not so, you say they are obstructing compromise. However, it seems that Dean is obstructing compromise by outright lying about the nature of the plan.

Unless you think that all parties should not be correctly informed as to the nature of what they are compromising? How can a negotiation be conducted based on fabrications?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

2. Multiple problems with this.

None of us know what any of us are talking about SINCE THERE IS NO PROPOSAL.

Kathleen Sibelius on morning Joe today said there were 5 plans on the table.

[madfloridian]

3. Sebelius yesterday praised the Senate actions

as being productive.

[Kid Dynamite]

14. And yet not one of them is anywhere near what Howard Dean

is claiming..of that much we are certain

[BlooInBloo]

4. Dean certainly did toture language pretty badly in that statement...

In the big scheme of things, not a big deal - From viewing the clip, I don't think Dean was trying to bamboozle single-payer advocates.

[madfloridian]

6. Well, that group is sabotaging Dean's efforts. They are doing it deliberately.

And actually in the mind of many Medicare IS a single payer. Obama used to speak of a Medicare type option.

It is not Dean's fault if he is caving in to Blue Dogs.

[nightrain]

28. or, is PHNP seeking clarity and accuracy? or???

[madfloridian]

32. The founder of PNHP called him a liar. The article is posted here in this forum.

I don't call that seeking clarity.

[John Q. Citizen]

63. Obama shut single payer out fron the start and Dean didn't say a thing. Now he wants to be single

payer?

Good.

I'm glad Dean is promoting single payer instead of that silly public/private hybrid pseudo republican thing he used to promote.

I'm glad Dr Dean is advocating getting rid of the private health insurance companies and for instituting a single payer system. Welcome aboard Dr. Dean!

[madfloridian]

8. Congrats to Himmelstein and PNHP

For discrediting an honest politician, one of the few who could get a voice on this.

Feel good now?

[Justitia]

9. Oh brother! Obviously Dean is trying to explain it in terms people understand.

With health products a lot of people are already familiar with.

I know Gov Howard Dean, I trust his motives & methods.

This Dr. Himmelstein character? Never heard of him in my life and what is his motive in tearing apart an obvious advocate for healthcare reform?

[dionysus]

10. why am i not surprised you posted statements from a d-bag that's negative about a good dem...

[Karmadillo]

15. Is the post inaccurate?

nt

[nightrain]

26. but is it true what Dean said? Are these proposals

like single payer? perhaps Dean misspoke?

[Justitia]

33. Perhaps this "Dr. Himmelstein" is a liar.

[madfloridian]

34. Medicare is like single payer. He has advocated opening Medicare.

Most people think of it that way.

Dean has advocated opening it up to others below 65.

[nightrain]

46. yep. are these Congressional proposals similar to opening up Medicare to those under 65?

I'm not seeing it.

[Justitia]

47. you're not looking hard enough. How much do you know about Medicare?

[nightrain]

51. I know a fair amount. I am a health care practitioner.

What is it that you think I'm not seeing about Medicare?

[Justitia]

54. Ahhh, NOW I understand. How many of your patients need Medicare to live?

Let's discuss it from the perspective of someone who needs Medicare to live every day.
Not from the personal perspective of someone who profits off the system.
Then, we can have a REAL discussion.

[nightrain]

56. who is profiting off the system? I don't bill Medicare.

What is it that you mean?

[Justitia]

64. So, you actually have no first hand experience of the single-payer Medicare system.

You should catch up on the topic to those that do - like Dr. Dean and those that use it daily to simply live, like many "end users" here on DU.

Only then can you fully understand and appreciate what is at stake here.

Or, you can simply jump on the bandwagon of those people who yell "LIAR" and don't have a freaking clue what they are talking about.

[nightrain]

71. okay, I am not going to continue this piece with you much further because

of these personal attacks. Just because I don't bill Medicare, doesn't mean I don't have first-hand knowledge of Medicare, and its life-saving program.

I AM CERTAINLY NOT CALLING DEAN A LIAR.

There's some miscommunication happening apparently between Himmelstein and Dean.

[madfloridian]

74. Dean never called Himmelstein a liar

[ProudDad]

127. Maybe becuase Himmelstein doesn't lie? (n/t)

[Justitia]

75. Ok. I am happy to discuss the real-world implications for patients who need reform to live, anytime

you are ready to discuss the specific alternatives for those people who will die without access to healthcare.

I have these discussions every day in the hospital / dialysis clinic / transplant center, so I can contribute with some concrete information on the subject.

Medicaid, also.

Supplemental policies, also.

[nightrain]

79. I am ready now if you will please stop the attacks.

[Justitia]

82. Excuse me? The opening post: "Dr. Dean is a liar" Ludicrous & inflammatory.

[nightrain]

87. when/if you want, please contact me privately to continue.

I did not post Dr Dean is a liar. I doubt Dr Dean is intentionally lying. Apparently there is a miscommunication.

[John Q. Citizen]

69. Republicans are like Democrats. They are both political parties. Many people see it that way.

But are they the same thing?

No, they aren't.

If Dr. Dean is supporting single payer then good, it's about time.

[madfloridian]

11. We are so screwed.

The PNHP is calling a fellow physician a liar. They are calling a man known for being honest a liar.

They are trying to discredit one who has worked to fight the Blue Dogs on this and mostly stood on the side of the single payers.

We are just screwed on health care now.

Thanks, guys.

[Kid Dynamite]

16. I don't think it is important if they call him a liar or not

The statements made by Dean stand for themselves -- they are deliberately misleading and outright untrue. Perhaps that is the thing that is screwing us.

[madfloridian]

19. Wow. So you think Dean is screwing us.

I don't agree with him on many things, but he is not lying or trying to mislead.

Congratulations, the winners are the ones who discredit the former head of the party.

[Justitia]

20. Mad, you forgot to welcome this new poster to DU!

[Kid Dynamite]

21. These are trying times

but thank you all the same :)

[madfloridian]

22. There are many new "lobbyists" here.

I got tired of welcoming.

:hi:

[Kid Dynamite]

23. No lobbying

my question is the same as post 15, which has gone unanswered and sadly so, for that would penetrate immediately to the heart of any dispute on this matter

[Justitia]

24. Isn't it amazing the lengths people will go to in order to derail healthcare?

Fortunately, so many of us know better.

:hi:

[nightrain]

27. do you realize that you are scapegoating the original poster?

[Justitia]

31. hahaha, like I give a crap. What about calling a longtime public advocate a LIAR?

Sorry, it's simply a direct attack on someone who has been working for years on healthcare issues.

These anonymous brick throwers have agendas, my friend.

Dr. Dean I know and trust.

[nightrain]

38. It IS harsh language and very painful and scary to hear.

Do we need to attack back, or find out what Dean meant? I generally believe Dean also, so something doesn't quite fit here, let's find out what that is.

Not every uncomfortable post is an attack.

[madfloridian]

40. Oh, please stop it.

This is a ploy by a group that wants to get its way with no compromise.

[nightrain]

44. I don't think so. I doubt they are the "enemy".

[madfloridian]

48. There are enemies on the left and right.

[Justitia]

41. I already know Dr. Dean, have for many years. His motives are not in doubt. -eom

[Jim Sagle]

58. Most of them are recruited from the lobby of a skid row flophouse.

Which I guess is why they're called lobbyists.

[nightrain]

25. hey.... how about sticking to the points of the post rather than

making a personal attack? As I have said recently, there's a lot of suspicion going on.... Of course there are some trolls, but until there is more evidence, could we stick to the substance of the post please? It is extremely hurtful to be unjustly accused.

[Justitia]

29. hey, how about pointing out something substantive to the healthcare debate?

Rather than attacking longtime advocates simply as "liars"? What kind of bullshit argument is that?

[madfloridian]

30. I consider the OP an attack on an honest man.

That group is trying to discredit a fellow doctor.

I have had it with calling people liars if one doesn't agree with them.

[nightrain]

35. it IS harsh language and very painful to hear. Now, as to the content--

Is Dean portraying "Obamacare" as something it isn't? I haven't seen the video yet. I wonder if Dean misspoke or ???

[Justitia]

36. Did "Dr. Himmelstein" misspeak? What are his credentials anyway?

[nightrain]

42. It certainly is possible that Himmelstein misspoke. Let's try to find out.

Himmelstein was recently on Bill Moyers. The show is archived and excellent. If you want to see Himmelstein's credentials, I spose they are on the PHNP website somewhere.

I know the healthcare topic is very hot these days. Can we have a passionate discussion without a personal attack please?

[Justitia]

45. "Dr. Himmelstein" is one of these "my way or NO way" characters who want to kill reform

unless it is precisely what "Dr. Himmelstein" wants.

Screw him and his personal agendas. This isn't about tailoring it to his personal preferences as a PRIVATE PRACTICE DOCTOR.

This is about getting healthcare for the vast majority of Americans.

[madfloridian]

49. The OP was a personal attack on an honest man.

Too late to plead....

[madfloridian]

37. No, he is portraying it as it "once" was. Trying to keep things honest.

But too late now.

[ControlledDemolition]

139. The ' winner' of any war writes the history. What puzzles me...

... is that Howard Dean played a key role in the last Democratic victory. Why does it now seem that he is being disowned?

Personally, if I was backed into a corner I'd want Dean on my side.

[John Q. Citizen]

78. Dean is a good man and has done good things but the public option was not one of them. He should

have supported single payer and then gracefully accepted a public option. Instead, he helped sink the public option by not building up single payer as a bulwark to protect a real public option.

Dean should have been calling for single payer advocates to be seated at the table. Instead he was silent.

Now Dr Dean wants to be single payer? Well good, it's about time.

We can educate him as to the differences between a public/private hybrid and a single payer system. Dr Dean will be good to have a an advocate of single payer. I welcome him aboard.

By the way, Welcome to DU and thanks for fighting the good fight. Don't let the absolutism of others get you down. They are good people but sometimes they let the cult of personality get in their way.

[Kid Dynamite]

86. I am not at all perturbed

The reputation of Howard Dean is a non sequitur. It is perfectly possible to consider what he said and factually decide whether it is accurate. In this case, its not. His motivations are his own, but the consequences of what he says have larger effects.

[John Q. Citizen]

89. I agree.

[madfloridian]

92. He DID call for single payer to be at the table. Over and over.

Have you not kept up with what he has said.

Discrediting Dean was not a good thing for this group to do. It will come back and bite them when we lose the battle.

[John Q. Citizen]

96. I have asked you before to give me a link to when Dr Dean demanded that single payer advocates be

included in the national meetings, the White House Summit, the early stages when the deals were being discussed?

I'm not speaking about the DFA blog.

The same can be said of course about Move-on, the leadership of SEIU, and others. By the way, I don't fault any of them for their own positions, that's for them to decide, but I do think they should have spoken out for inclusion.

If any of them did, including Dean, I am not aware of it. I'd like to see a link if you have one. Thanks.

[madfloridian]

98. I have posted many of the videos where he said it out loud in the DU videos

I will be damned if I am going to transcribe the videos.

I don't lie. Dean has not lied.

It is to the shame of Dr. Himmelstein that he said that about Dean.

I have posted so much about Dean's words on healthcare I have been ridiculed here. Now you don't think I have posted enough?

Read my journal.

Stop trying to make me look like a liar.

I have posted over and over that he has said single payer should be at the table, and that he was not against it, and that it would be the ideal if we could get it.

[John Q. Citizen]

101. I never read where Dean called on Obama to include single payer advocates in the talks. I still

haven't.

You say he did, but I didn't see it. I'm not lying to you.

I never saw DFA protest at places that Single Payer advocates were shut out at.

Maybe they did, but it would be news to me.


If you happen to run across something like that, you can always send it to me in an IM. I'd like to see it.

[madfloridian]

102. Well, by golly, I have posted it many times. I am glad you are not saying I am lying.

Thanks for that at least.

I have done my research, and it is in my posts. He has said it on TV many times.

[Missy Vixen]

39. Don't be calling Howard Dean a liar

He's the only one that's been truthful through this whole process.

Howard Dean still screams for me. :woohoo:

-MV
going to see the good Doctor this Friday in Seattle...

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. Okay, here is what's wrong with what Dean said.

“For the average American, they should best think of it as Medicare,” Dean said.

According to Dean, under the Obama plan, the American people will have a choice to opt into a single payer system.

“Look, you decide for yourself,” Dean said. “We’re going to allow people under sixty-five to sign up for what people over sixty-five have. And you make the choice.”

Buying the public option will be unlike buying into Medicare because... uh...

Yeah, it's not really single payer because it doesn't force everyone into a single risk pool, but then again, there are lots of public/private hybrid systems in use elsewhere in the world that we describe as "single payer". And there are several good political reasons that we can't successfully do true single payer yet.

So I think it's a mild distortion, but no less so than our description of, say, Australia's system as single payer.

[ipaint]

50. So anyone can sign up for the public option

who is under 65 and it will be just like medicare?

There are lots of public / NON profit private hybrid systems.

[nightrain]

52. I haven't seen that in any of the Congressional proposals, sadly.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. Anyone who can get insurance from the exhange can choose the public option.

As a starting point, covering the the needs of the uninsured is probably a good plan, don't you agree?

[ipaint]

81. Well that narrows it down from anyone can choose the public option.

An important difference and to say otherwise is misleading.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. The only people who can't use the exchange are those who have good coverage at work.

And it is the stated intent of the bill that they would eventually be allowed to participate in the exchange, but it is important that this be done in an orderly way or big employers with disproportionately large costs will simply pass those costs off onto the exchange.

[ipaint]

111. The public option in the exchange

But then you knew that.

President Obama:

"Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family."


"Public Option" Would Only Be Available To The Otherwise Uninsured
TPM Cafe
July 16, 2009

I'm not sure that people really understand how the "public option" would work, given the rhetoric of the administration that people could "keep" their current insurance if they want to or choose a public option.

Last night on The Daily Show, Secretary Sebelius, in response to a question, made things a bit clearer regarding just how the public option would work. She was asked "who would choose" whether or not to use the public option: the employee or the employer? The Secretary said essentially it would be the choice of the employer because if the employer provides health insurance then that is the insurance the employee would have to use. Only if the employer chose not to provide health insurance would the employee be able to enroll in the public option.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/oleeb/2009/07/public-option-would-only-be-av.php?ref=reccafe

[harun]

117. I don't think that is the reason. I think they don't want

big employers to all jump in to the public option right away because it would hurt the Private Insurers. Which I could care less about. Wish they would destroy them as fast as possible.

The big employers are the big PAYERS in the Health System. They would boost the income in to a Gov't Plan tremendously. Sooner they get them in there the better.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Anyone who currently lacks employer-provided insurance can.

And Ron Wyden has proposed an amendment which would force employers to give vouchers in the amount of their share of the employee's premium, enabling employees to purchase coverage from the exchange.

[nightrain]

62. thanks. That's helps clarify. I haven't checked out the primary sources,

yet. I believe Dean is generally a very honest and thoughtful person, so this incongruity is baffling to me.

[madfloridian]

53. I hate to see DU being used like this.

To discredit a man who is known for being honest and straightforward.

I guess so be it.

[nightrain]

57. Dean is a great person. I like him a great deal. Let's find out

more about what he meant by his comments.

[madfloridian]

60. I have followed his efforts on this. Stop with the "let's find out"

He's been called a liar now...so you find out. I know he is not, because I know what he has said.

The deed is done now. Can't take back words.

[madfloridian]

61. DU is being used to discredit a former party chair and a doctor.

[nightrain]

66. no, I don't think so.... another perspective is that we need more information

about intent in these baffling and controversial comments of Dean and Himmelstein.

[madfloridian]

72. Dean's comments were honest if you paid attention.

That is what angers me so much. That Himmelstein is for one thing, Dean is for another. Dean is for both, but doesn't think we can get one.

It's a doctor calling another doctor a lie. This is the same group that protested Dean and Blumenaur and shouted them down in a meeting so they could not speak effectively.

[slipslidingaway]

55. “Medicare doesn’t have to compete,” Himmelstein said. “That’s why it’s so efficient.”

"“He knows that the public option plan is not single payer and he says it is to try and confuse people,” Himmelstein said. “He goes on Democracy Now and other shows and says that people can buy into Medicare when he knows that what is in the plan is not that.”

“Medicare doesn’t have to compete,” Himmelstein said. “That’s why it’s so efficient.”

[madfloridian]

67. Dean was speaking of a possible plan. That is very obvious.

He has always said that.

This is a pathetic effort by a few to discredit him, but unfortunately that works well.

To your group it is your way or nothing at all.

[slipslidingaway]

73. The public option will have to compete with private insurance

companies unlike Medicare.

It would be best to stick with discussing the differences between the systems, if someone is not portraying them accurately then people have every right to express their frustration with that person.

Was the term liar harsh, yes, was Dean inaccurate in his description of the plan and in trying to confuse the two systems, yes.

[madfloridian]

83. I know the difference. You won't get what you want.

But you are well on the road to not getting anything by discrediting the spokesperson who could have made a difference.

That's real power calling a man a liar and not backing down.

[slipslidingaway]

118. Here is what I want, everyone to be covered by the same plan...

I do not want to compete for health care dollars with other groups. Doctors should be spending time treating patients, not on the phone with insurance companies explaining the need for a procedure.

I do not think the insurance companies deserve to make profits by collecting and paying health care bills.

They add NO Value, why Dean is telling them the government will subsidize for profit insurance and that the public option will not be as bad as they imagine is beyond me.

Why he is misrepresenting the difference between the two systems is hard to comprehend.

After months of Dean speaking in the media, Dr. David Himmelstein has finally said he thinks Dean is not telling the truth when he says the public option is like single-payer.

Himmelstein has been fighting for a national plan since the 1980's and most likely does not take kindly to the distorted facts.

[madfloridian]

125. You act as though Dean had no experience and no background...

That's sad.

I hope you get what you want. :shrug:

[nightrain]

76. oh gees...."To your group"?? lots of assumptions going on here...

Again, perhaps it's not so much as to discredit Dean as to find out what Dean meant. There might not be a nefarious intent.

[madfloridian]

80. Calling a man a liar in public tends to discredit.

This is ridiculous that DU is being used like this.

[nightrain]

84. well, from my perspective, we might actually be

getting somewhere in this exchange. So, it's not been worthless, more like a process in the search of accuracy and clarity.

[madfloridian]

85. Bull hockey.

First call someone a liar and then figure out what they said.

Too damn late.

[nightrain]

90. Again. I NEVER CALLED DEAN A LIAR, I DOUBT HE WOULD

INTENTIONALLY LIE. There seems to be some kind of miscommunication between them.

If you want to continue, please contact me privately.

[slipslidingaway]

120. I happen to believe that companies should not make a profit

by denying care.

:)

[slipslidingaway]

68. "Dr. David Himmelstein is associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School

and serves as the chief of the Division of Social and Community Medicine at Cambridge Hospital where he practices primary care internal medicine. He received his M.D. from Columbia University and completed internal medicine training at Highland Hospital/University of California San Francisco, and a fellowship in general internal medicine at Harvard.

Dr. Himmelstein was a founder of Physicians for a National Health Program and serves as co-director of the Center for National Health Program Studies at the Cambridge Hospital/Harvard Medical School. He co-edits PNHP's newsletter and is a principal author of PNHP articles published in the JAMA and the New England Journal of Medicine in conjunction with Dr. Steffie Woolhandler."

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05222009/profile2.html


"The term "single-payer" generally means a system in which rather than having private, for-profit insurance companies, the government runs one large non-profit insurance organization. That organization pays all the doctor, drug and hospital bills — it is the "single-payer" of all medical bills. In most single-payer plans, every American would be enrolled and would pay into the fund through taxes..."

[Justitia]

70. Yup, he's one of the "MY way or NO way" reform killers. -eom

[John Q. Citizen]

97. Do you have a link to back that up, or are you just venting?

[Justitia]

105. Have you read his actual testimony? He calls anything but single payer "nonsensical".

"In sum, a single payer reform would make universal, comprehensive coverage affordable by diverting hundreds of billions of dollars from bureaucracy to patient care. Lesser reforms — even those that include a public plan option — cannot realize such savings. While reforms that maintain a major role for private insurers may be politically attractive, they are economically and medically nonsensical."

I would love to have single payer, Medicare for all, etc. but I know this is not politically feasible in the near term and people's lives depend on access to healthcare in the near term.

If "Dr. Himmelstein" spent more time working on real, concrete, achievable solutions instead of a zero-sum game, he might actually save some lives.

Instead, he uses pejorative terms (liar, nonsensical) to reject anything that does not fit his orthodoxy and attempts to discredit anything that might actually work for a vast majority of Americans in the process.

http://www.pnhp.org/blog/2009/04/23/david-himmelsteins-testimony/

[John Q. Citizen]

116. Have you read what just passed out of three committees in the House? It establishes

a public option pool that begins in 2013. By 2020 10 million people will be enrolled in the public pool. It's a joke.

Perhaps you think we can get something better than that out of the Senate. i hope so, but i doubt it. Anything out of the Senate likely will take 60 votes to pass, since reconciliation only applies to budget bills. On June 25th I was in DC lobbying my Senators Jon tester and Max Baucus on health care, single payer. I had a very good long chat with a woman named Toni Miles that the Baucus office put me in touch with, a senior staffer for the Senate Finance committee. She told me that the health care reform bill isn't eligible for reconciliation, period.

It's really a shame that single payer wasn't on the table through out the whole process, because the only thing left to bargain away is the public option.

Oopps!

Brilliant strategy, that compromise. Really smart using the public option as the starting point and compromising before anyone asked Dean to. He just flat out compromised his self right away from the start.


Dean can say that the house bill is just like Medicare, single payer, medical nirvana and living in France or Canada, if he wants to.

But it's really just a tax payer giveaway to the insurance companies, the drug companies, the hospitals and the equipment manufacturers. It won't control costs and the only people who can buy into it are people who have no access to any other insurance anywhere. Since it doesn't control costs, it will soon become unaffordable as will the subsidized private insurance. Then the benefits can be cut way back.

How's that work for you? It doesn't work for me.

At least Dr Himmelstien isn't so naive as you and Dr. Dean

[Mimosa]

131. Read this post above this one ^

John Q, I've been studying the issues and talking with MDs for about 20 years. What you wrote is how I perceive what's going on. The politicians are selling out to big insurance and we will be screwed. :(

[Justitia]

132. "Naive"? ha! "Naive" is lobbying Max Baucus for single payer! You are hilarious.

You might as well have been lobbying my senator, John Cornyn.

You must be new at this.

Good luck with that pie-in-the-sky single payer thing.

Meanwhile, I'll be working on something that can ACTUALLY GET PASSED, to provide ACTUAL HEALTHCARE to ACTUAL SICK PEOPLE.

[John Q. Citizen]

135. you go ask for Romney Care, since that's your idea of providing healthcare to sick people

Of course, we could have passed Romney care with Romney in the White House and the Repos running congress.

Subsidize private insurance with tax payer dollars and force everyone to buy private insurance. That's Romney Care.

Anybody could pass that, who wanted to. And you want to.

but don't expect me or anyone else to thank you for passing Romney Care.

[Justitia]

136. I have never commented on the MA program, so you are completely lost.

[John Q. Citizen]

137. I once was lost, but now I'm found;

Was blind but now i see.

Perhaps it's time you commented on Romney Care. i can't believe you wouldn't have an opinion about it.

or...?

[Justitia]

138. I don't live in MA. Why don't you take that up with someone who lives there?

[John Q. Citizen]

140. Oh. If you aren't interested in what they do in MA and whether it works or not then that's fine.

[slipslidingaway]

115. So he should support a plan that he thinks will not achieve the

objectives of covering everyone in the most cost efficient way because others are to afraid to challenge the For Profit insurance companies.

And he should stay quiet when others misrepresent a single-payer system in the media.

Perhaps those who keep the insurance companies in the picture should be challenged.

:shrug:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05222009/transcript2.html

"DR. SIDNEY WOLFE: The seats at the table, or the witnesses at the hearing are, in a sense, controlled by the health insurance industry. They don't want someone essentially saying, "We don't need a health insurance industry. We can do what most other countries in the world have done. Have the government collect the money and pay the bills and get rid of all these people who are wasting $400 billion a year on excessive administrative costs."

So, we have got a fragmented health insurance industry. And it thrives on being fragmented. The drug countries make much more money with the fragmentation, because there's no price control. The insurance companies make much more money, 'cause they can push away people who aren't going to be profitable. The only people that suffer are the patients.

It's- 1968, I was one of a group of physicians that disrupted the American Medical Association's convention, because they were saying then, and in, for all practical purposes it's still true, "Health care is not a right. It's a privilege." And we said, quietly, as we took over the microphone, "That's wrong." We're now 41 years later, and it's still a privilege. And too many people in this country don't have that privilege. It's resulting in huge numbers of people being ill, sick, and almost 20 thousand people dying a year because they don't have health insurance.

DR. DAVID HIMMELSTEIN: And there's big money being made. I mean, that's the basic problem here. There are billions being made from the private health insurance industry, from the drug industry, and that gets spread around Washington. The biggest recipients of insurance money, of drug money, are the powerful people who chair the committees, who decide what witnesses testify. President Obama himself received huge amounts of insurance money.

BILL MOYERS: But then let's establish what single-payer is. Can you do that succinctly?

DR. DAVID HIMMELSTEIN: It's what we used to call national health insurance. So government collects the money for health care from taxes, you don't pay premiums, instead you pay taxes, and pays all the bills. Hospitals remain privately owned and operated. Doctors remain mostly in private practice. But their bills go to the government insurance program, just as they do today with Medicare, but we'd be able to streamline the payment system if we had only one payer instead of Medicare being one among many..."

[madfloridian]

77. Dr Dean has good credentials also. This is utter futility. You are determined

to have just the one way.

Dean is for single payer also, he has said so.

This is hurting everyone,

[slipslidingaway]

121. Exactly, when someone misrepresents the facts eveyone gets

hurt.

[Sebastian Doyle]

88. So who is this Himmelstein, and how is he tied to the DLC

Because when anti-Dean bullshit is stirred up, they're always behind it. Same shit since 2003.

[ipaint]

91. Judge for yourself

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05222009/profile2.html

[inna]

94. in other words, he is a progressive, honest physician...

... who doesn't have anything to do with DLC, whatsoever.

thanks for the link.

[madfloridian]

95. Calling another doctor a liar....why would he do that?

What does he gain by twisting Dean's words and meanings and not paying attention to what he has really said....and then calling him a liar.

We all lose now.

[ipaint]

103. People do not have the time to sift

through several 1000 page proposals to see the extent to which they are getting screwed. They turn to people like Dean because he has a reputation for telling the truth and being on their side. What he claimed the public option was is so far removed from what is being proposed it's laughable.

Knowing that people look to him to clear things up for them he has the responsibility to tell the whole truth and no where does he tell people that the public option being offered is not at all like single payer or medicare. The public option he defines doesn't exist in any plan anywhere.

from the article-

Dean said that the Obama plan will give Americans the choice “between whether they would like a single payer for themselves and their families or whether they would not.”

Where is this obama plan?


That is simply not true. The public option is not medicare because medicare is not forced to compete with for profit insurance. And it is most certainly not single payer where the government is the insurer.

The politically correct term for what he did was spin.

[madfloridian]

104. It only takes one group organized on a forum to ruin a reputation.

You have like Himmelstein taken what Dean has said all along and painted it with one brush.

He has been honest and upfront about all he has said. The fact that he came out for the public option at the start alienated this group of doctors.

There is no public option right now. Dean is trying to paint a picture of what it would like and how it would cause insurance to drop costs.

But now we are well on our way to nothing.

[Justitia]

106. Yup, the "having nothing is better" crowd, because surely we'll get it right "next time".

I remember them from the Hillary Care days.

[ipaint]

110. Of course it alienated them

He co-opted their programs and misrepresented them as the same as a public option.

If I had done the amount of work the himmelstein and his collegues have done for almost two decades to fight for the only proven plan that will work, I'd be pretty pissed when a dr/politcian comes along and misrepresents it.

Good luck to the folks who actually believe the obama public option will mean they can choose a plan just like single payer or medicare. Too bad nobody told them that was only a faint possiblity 20+ years down the road or when they hit 65, if at all.

[madfloridian]

113. I think the Obama admin will do away with Medicare and Social Security

but I don't blame Dean for it.

This is really scary that you guys are doing this.

[inna]

107. the so-called "public option" is a joke/distraction/mockery of a real public plan.

according to the CBO, less than 10 million people will be covered by public plan by 2019.

see this post for details: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6109425&mesg_id=6109879

[Justitia]

109. So, according to that speculation, we should just do nothing? Is that your suggestion? -eom

[inna]

119. of course not, i never made such a suggestion. nt

[Justitia]

133. You're right - you have no "suggestions", only criticisms. How productive.

[KoKo]

99. Folks should read the link transcript to see what Himmelstein and Sid Wolfe are saying..

National Health Insurance is what they are advocating. What Howard Dean has been promoting as a compromise is bringing more people into Medicare as a step to National Health Insurance. So far Congress and Obama seem to be vacillating on any even baby step to National Health Insurance, is my take. Calling Dean a liar seems extreme when really they are saying that people will be confused that the "public option" is anything close to National Health Insurance, baby steps or not.

[Thrill]

108. Obamacare? WTF??

This guys true colors are showing. Using RW talking point crap

[madfloridian]

112. Yes. Himmelstein is against what Obama wants. He is using rw words.

And he is attacking a man who has tried to stand up and keep Obama's plan in focus.

But no one is really upset because they don't understand that he is attacking Obama just as much as he is attacking Dean. It's ok to call Dean a liar, but once they get that he is going after Obama's plan....someone might get upset.

[slipslidingaway]

114. Dr. David Himmelstein never said Obamacare n/t

[ipaint]

122. Starting at 3:00 into this video

Dean specifically says obama is offering a choice between single payer and their private health ins.

He also repeats that the public option is just like medicare.

Both of those statement are not true no matter how strong a public option is.

http://www.healthcare-now.org/dr-dean-single-payer-is-not-off-the-table/

[madfloridian]

123. He wants a public option like Medicare.

He has always said that.

[slipslidingaway]

124. That was the first time I heard Dean equate SP with the public

option and it was disappointing.

As mentioned in the other article (Bait and Switch) and also by Dr. Himmelstein one huge difference between the public option and Medicare is that Medicare did not have to compete with private insurance companies.

Also Medicare had from the start a certain number of enrollees to the plan.

Trying to say the two are the same or almost the same is disingenuous at best, unfortunately some cannot see how this harms and marginalizes those who advocate for a SP system.

:(


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6120089&mesg_id=6120089
http://www.pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/20/bait-and-switch-how-the-%e2%80%9cpublic-option%e2%80%9d-was-sold/

"...You know the House bill did not create a ready-made pool of enrollees for you to work with the way the 1965 Medicare law created a ready-made pool of seniors prior to the day Medicare commenced operations...."


http://www.blueoregon.com/2009/06/dean-wyden-the-public-option-single-payer-and-the-rest-of-the-kitchen-sink.html

"...Dean also said that single-payer is pretty tough to differentiate from the public option. "Public option is like single payer. It gives consumers the choice. There's no such thing as a pure single-payer plan anywhere."

[Karmadillo]

128. Thanks for posting this. Looks like Himmelstein is correct.

nt

[slipslidingaway]

129. Other statements here as well..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6125451&mesg_id=6126194

[ProudDad]

126. Dean is either seriously ignorant or he's Lying! (n/t)

[Mimosa]

130. Why can't we have single payer?

I trust Hillelstein more than politicos


DR. DAVID HIMMELSTEIN: It's what we used to call national health insurance. So government collects the money for health care from taxes, you don't pay premiums, instead you pay taxes, and pays all the bills. Hospitals remain privately owned and operated. Doctors remain mostly in private practice. But their bills go to the government insurance program, just as they do today with Medicare, but we'd be able to streamline the payment system if we had only one payer instead of Medicare being one among many..."

[Justitia]

134. Or those latent Dean haters are using the healthcare debate to take aim at their favorite target.