Question on birther nonsense

[spotbird]

(I posted this question in another thread, but didn't get a responsive answer.)

First, I believe Obama is a citizen and the birther hysteria is manufactured to rile their base.

Second, I don't understand why Obama doesn't authorize the release of as many copies of his birth certificate as the birthers are willing to pay for.

Stay with me here, yes I understand Obama has a US passport, but since his mother was a citizen he would get one regardless of where he was born. I also know a copy of the birth certificate was posted somewhere.

With that understanding, why in the world doesn't he just allow the rerelease of as many copies as the birthers want? True, it won't satisfy all of them, but it should silence the "mainstream" fanatics like Dobbs and King.

This is a serious question, please don't answer with spam.

[RagAss]

1. You can't answer a conspiracy theory....it just gets worse.

[Warpy]

2. It wouldn't work

because like most conspiracy nuts, the birthers would insist they're all forgeries, all photoshopped, all fakes, and just more proof of how big the conspiracy really is.

You can't argue with a conspiracy nut. You can just yawn or laugh and walk away and hope mental health care is part of any health care reform.

[ProgressiveFool]

3. Why bother?

These people are clearly lunatics, and acknowledging them only provides them with a veneer of sanity. Let them continue to expose themselves for the dumb fucks they are, and let them drag down any Repuke politician or media blowhard that signs on to their nonsense.

They don't deserve the dignity of a response.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[BlooInBloo]

11. Nothing Obama does will satisfy you. I can live with that.

[spotbird]

15. Please refer to my reply above. nt

[BlooInBloo]

16. Done. Your impotent rage is just as enjoyable the second time 'round.

[spotbird]

19. You're welcomed. nt

[lolly]

28. Please be aware that he has released it

And Tweetie even had a copy of it to show the birthers on his show the other night.

The question is not "why hasn't he released his b/c?" He has. It's "why won't the nutcase birthers accept the validated birth certificate he has shown them?"

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WeDidIt]

36. +1

[Dollface]

41. I agree that more copies are useless but I didn't understand the snarkiness. OMG! I AM a Liberal!

[spotbird]

50. What is the point in this fight?

Just release the certificate to a couple mainstream sources. It's petty to continue it, and beneath the president.

[spotbird]

49. There is an original out there?

Please link to something other than a copy.

[csziggy]

59. Because the original is kept in a file by the State of Hawaii and is not issued to anyone

The ONLY thing that is available to anyone is a copy. Period. If Obama himself wanted the original to put in his files he would not be allowed to have it since it is the only original and has to be kept in the state files.

For Immediate Release: October 31, 2008 08-93
STATEMENT BY DR. CHIYOME FUKINO
“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

“No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i.”
###
http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf

Tell you want, go to your the Vital Records Bureau in the state where you were born and ask that they release the original of your birth certificate. Then post it here for all of us to see. Bet you can't do it!

[spotbird]

67. When is enough, enough?

State certified copies.

[csziggy]

69. That is what is posted on the internet - a state certified copy

No on is required to freely distribute actual certified copies to everybody. When I had to show the State of Florida my birth certificate to renew my driver's license, they did not require that they be allowed to keep the certified copy, they simply scanned it for their files.

Factcheck.org was allowed to examine a state certified copy of Obama birth certificate and has detailed pictures at their web site. You and no other citizen that is not included in the list of people authorized to request a copy of Obama's birth certificate should expect him to hand you one. To expect it is as insane as to question his legitimacy as a US Natural Born Citizen after all the proof that has been presented.

Enough is enough. His birth has been proven. Get over it.

[WeDidIt]

20. .

:evilgrin:

GMTA

[Dollface]

27. Why are you being a dick? The poster clearly stated he/she is not a Birther. Did DU ban questions

while I was away?

[BlooInBloo]

34. Oh - the poster said. Well there you go.

[rvablue]

38. No ban on questions but when you spam the board with multiple OPs based on

Freeper talking points, it's inevitable that you're going to get criticized and called out.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dollface]

46. Oh crap. Does that mean I have to read all of his old posts? There's like a thousand of them!

[spotbird]

54. Spam?

I asked it as a question in a single thread one time, there was no response beyond the canned talking points, so I posted my own thread.

What do I get here? More talking points. My question is sincere, I really don't understand why this trivial distraction continues. I wondered if anyone had an answer beyond the cut-and-paste responses. It's clear no one knows why the political debate has been so reduced, but the personal attacks to my question are more trollish then anything I've ever seen here. And I'm not a troll, I've been here longer than anyone who is trying so desperately to reduce this to a flame fest.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Critters2]

5. They say they want a "long form", but the state of Hawaii says

there is no such thing. The birth certificate he's made public has been certified as the ONLY birth certificate recognized by the state of Hawaii.

They know this. They just want to keep stirring up shit.

[spotbird]

10. If Obama allowed more originals

to be released, the mainstream embrace of this issue would be quelled. I absolutely agree the fringes will never come around.

[kestrel91316]

26. You are wrong. These people will NEVER shut up.

Read the many responses to your posts explaining the legal ramifications of spreading certified copies of birth records around.

[rvablue]

30. Please define "more originals."

You can't.

That phrase makes no sense.

An original is an original. An other "more" would be a facsimile of "the original."

And there is no "mainstream embrace" of this "issue." It's a settled matter and the majority of the MSM coverage of this has described these "birthers for what they are: total nuts.

[BlooInBloo]

52. "more originals" = birtherspeak.

[spotbird]

66. I can.

Certified copies.

[Ms. Toad]

70. The meaning of the word "original" makes that impossible. n/t

[spotbird]

12. nt

[ColbertWatcher]

56. That's a classic example of "moving the goalposts"

First they say they want to see his birth certificate, which he provides.

Then, they say, it's not the "official" birth certificate, so he shows that.

Next, they say, what he showed is not the "long form" "official" birth certificate.

So what then? Will they complain that it's not "long" enough?

[Siwsan]

6. Birthers aren't interested in the truth

Just the fact that a birth announcement was printed in the Honolulu Advertiser and the Star Bulletin recorded his 8\4\61 birth should shut them up, but no doubt they have a conspiracy theory for that one, too. Like, maybe he's a time traveler.

[Zen Democrat]

7. These birthers are certifables -- clearly careening to the asylum.

Let them be on their way.

[KharmaTrain]

9. Try Proving A Negative...

They don't want copies...they want the "original"...and my bets are even that wouldn't be good enough. They'll find something...the wrong typeset or the doctor's signature was forged or some other game to keep this crap alive.

The bottom line is few if any of us have an original copy of our birth certificate...a year ago I went to get a certified copy of mine and was told the originals had been flashed onto microfilm in the 70s and the original paper had been lost or destroyed...so does that make me a Kenyan as well?

Lastly, there are no such thing as "mainstream" fanatics...surely not Lou Doobies.

[lolly]

23. Yes--most don't issue "originals" anymore

20 years ago, when my second daughter was born, I signed a form typed by a hospital clerk in the hospital. When I sent off for an official copy of the birth certificate, I received a xerox copy of that form with the official seal from the registrar on it. I suppose this is what the birthers insist they need to see to be sure he's natural born.

12 years later, when my youngest was born, I sent off for an official copy and received a computer generated document on watermarked stationery with all the information on the birth (not typed on a form).

That's just what they give now, and it is the official birth certificate, and that is what Obama has released.

Of course, assuming Hawaii did still have the original form in a "vault" somewhere and did release it, does anybody really believe that would stop them? They would find fault with the typeface or heaven knows what.

Oddly enough, one of the reasons for the changes was to prevent forgery. The old xeroxed forms were quite easy to alter/forge (yeah, ask me how I know . . .). The new ones are much more difficult. When they're xeroxed, the image of the word "copy" or some other indication of the copying shows up. And you can't just erase something off a watermarked document and retype on it.

[damntexdem]

13. The Obama campaign put it online during the election.

This has nothing to do with proof of birth in Hawaii. And they claim that he's not a citizen, not that he wasn't a 'natural born' American. It's racism, pure and simple: they cannot accept that America voted him in as president and/or that an African American can be president. It's not even conspiracy theory -- the conspiracy stuff is just a facade for pure racism.

[spotbird]

17. No doubt about it,

but it could be settled for the "mainstream" media easily. Not for the fridge.

[Dollface]

37. Not as long as it brings in viewers. The MSM will continue to feed it.

[rvablue]

39. The MSM isn't feeding it. This is getting attention because a very reasonable GOP congressman

had to face down a few freepers at at town hall meeting with the proven truth.

Besides xenophobic Lou Dobbs, no one has given this any credence. They are merely being exposed for what they are: nuts.

[stanwyck]

73. Look. This story is junk. And your "tell" is revealed

with your reference to "the fridge". I seriously doubt refrigerators care about the President's birth certificate. I'm guessing you meant fringe. Look at the signs from the tea party rallies. Crazy folks can't spell.
But, hey, if this is the only issue you understand, and it feeds your racism, stay with it.
The smart people will deal with health care, the economy, foreign relations, and the environment.

[Mz Pip]

14. Maybe it's just good strategy

to watch the Republicans twist themselves in knots over these crazies. So many of these crackpots are part of the Republican base and having them out there front and center on a nearly daily basis does not make the GOP look at all moderate or mainstream. They won't disavow them or criticize Rush and the other RW mouthpieces so they end up looking almost as idiotic as the birfers.

It's all good.

[spotbird]

61. Maybe that's it

at first that was a workable strategy, now the "issue" is creeping into the "mainstream" media where a tremendous portion of the population forms there views.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply.

[Mz Pip]

63. And who is showing up on

MSM to advance the birfer's insanity? Oily Tights, Alan (batshitinsane) Keyes along with various snippets of ranting folks waving plastic bags with American flags attached.

I kind of doubt the majority of the American population will be swayed by the likes of these clowns.

[spotbird]

64. Yes, yes

but why is the topic radioactive here? Perhaps a solution is available if we are allowed to stray from the talkingpoints.

[Spike89]

18. First, he can't...second, why?

Obama is president of the United States...that does not make him king of everything. Birth certificates are issued and controlled by local governments...NOT the federal government (why the heckler is getting ridiculed for claiming a BC from the U.S.) Obama can no more order the release of Hawaiian documents than he can force your local dogcatcher to ignore poodles running free. That is simply the way our government works.

Why is this important. Even if despite all real evidence, Obama were to have been born overseas to an american citizen, well, then he is 100% eligible. The U.S. passport is a legal document proving he is a citizen. True, he could have been naturalized and then gotten a passport, but of course, papers showing that would have had to be shown to get the passport. Even the kookiest birthers don't suggest that Obama has immigration papers that are being hidden.

The point...well, there is no point in this fantasy game. Obama is president.

[spotbird]

22. Hawaii can't release the document with

the president's permission? Do you have a link to that? Everywhere else will release with permission.

I agree that it's stupid, that's why he should make it disappear.

[kestrel91316]

31. He's under no obligation whatsoever to do what YOU demand.

You are NOT the Queen.

Go to the HI Vital Records link that I have REPEATEDLY given you and if you have further questions about HI law in this matter, contact HI. If you believe that President Obama is not legally a citizen, I suggest YOU sue in court to force him to prove the circumstances of his birth.

We don't allow birthers on DU. Where the fuck are the MODS??????

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Text of HI law applicable to certified copies of vital records:

§338-18 Disclosure of records. (a) To protect the integrity of vital statistics records, to ensure their proper use, and to ensure the efficient and proper administration of the vital statistics system, it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part of any such record, except as authorized by this part or by rules adopted by the department of health.

(b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:

(1) The registrant;

(2) The spouse of the registrant;

(3) A parent of the registrant;

(4) A descendant of the registrant;

(5) A person having a common ancestor with the registrant;

(6) A legal guardian of the registrant;

(7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;

(8) A personal representative of the registrant’s estate;

(9) A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;

(10) Adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and who need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;

(11) A person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;

(12) A person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and

(13) A person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

(c) The department may permit the use the data contained in public health statistical records for research purposes only, but no identifying use thereof shall be made.

(d) Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.

(e) The department may permit persons working on genealogy projects access to microfilm or other copies of vital records of events that occurred more than seventy-five years prior to the current year.

(f) Subject to this section, the department may direct its local agents to make a return upon filing of birth, death, and fetal death certificates with them, of certain data shown to federal, state, territorial, county, or municipal agencies. Payment by these agencies for these services may be made as the department shall direct.

(g) The department shall not issue a verification in lieu of a certified copy of any such record, or any part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant requesting a verification is:

(1) A person who has a direct and tangible interest in the record but requests a verification in lieu of a certified copy;

(2) A governmental agency or organization who for a legitimate government purpose maintains and needs to update official lists of persons in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities;

(3) A governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks confirmation of a certified copy of any such record submitted in support of or information provided about a vital event relating to any such record and contained in an official application made in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities by an individual seeking employment with, entrance to, or the services or products of the agency or organization;

(4) A private or government attorney who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record which was acquired during the course of or for purposes of legal proceedings; or

(5) An individual employed, endorsed, or sponsored by a governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record in preparation of reports or publications by the agency or organization for research or educational purposes.

~~~~~~~~

[spotbird]

57. When did I demand anything?

The statute you site makes it clear that Obama has the authority to release a certified copy, which is a substitute for the original.

[WeDidIt]

68. *HE* *HAS* *ALREADY* *RELEASED* *IT!!!!!!!!!!!*

[rvablue]

33. Do you have your BC with your hand and foot prints and the doc's sig on it. If you do, please

post it here to prove it as you seem to have no worries about the President of the United States providing millions of copies of his "long form birth certificate" (whatever that is :crazy:) to a bunch of deluded, crazed, moronic freepers.

[Mariana]

48. "Even the kookiest birthers..."

"Even the kookiest birthers don't suggest that Obama has immigration papers that are being hidden."

Actually, some of them do indeed suggest exactly that. Specifically, that he lost his US citizenship while living in Indonesia and had to be naturalized to get it back.

There are more of them that are that far gone than you want to believe.

[Ms. Toad]

71. The only reason there is any life to this is

The age of Obama's mother when he was born and the law at the time conferring citizenship on foreign born children of US citizens:

Obama's mother was 18 when he was born.

For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, the citizen parent must have lived in the US for a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen. http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html

At age 18, it was impossible for Obama's mother to have physically lived in the US for 5 years after her 14th birthday - which means his citizenship comes from his birth in Hawaii. If the birthers can prove he was not born in Hawaii, he isn't a citizen by birth.

It is a fantasy game - but it is a slightly more subtle one than meets the eye because it really does matter that Obama was born in Hawaii, despite the fact that he was born to an American citizen.

Note: I am NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, suggesting Obama was not born in Hawaii - all I am pointing out is that the legal question of his citizenship at birth is more complex than merely answering that because his mother was a citizen, he is one automatically.

[Roon]

21. A good way to shut up a birther is to ask him..

where was Mccain born? Their jaws usually drop and their pointy little heads will come close to exploding.

[WeDidIt]

24. So you are saying the president of the United States should do anything other than ignore these nuts

You're as bad as they are if you're suggesting that.

No, I take that back. Wondering why Obama doesn't drop everything to answer the conspircay theories of fringe lunatics makes you WORSE than those nutburgers.

[Mrs. Overall]

55. +1

[kestrel91316]

25. You need to spend some time reading the responses to your many previous

posts, rather than starting new threads about this CRAP. One does not release a certified copy of one's birth record to ANYONE who does not have a compelling legal reason to have one (being a birther freak like you is insufficient reason). Certified copies of birth records give a person carte blanche to assume an identity.

Have you ever heard of IDENTITY THEFT??? Probably not. You're too busy hanging out at FR most the time, I'm sure.

[spotbird]

58. Many?

What are you talking about? What is there in a birth certificate that would enable identity theft?

Not to mention it is nothing short of absurd to suggest that anyone could steal the identity of the president.

[Kalyke]

75. I work for an information security company.

There is A LOT that can be stolen by having access to a birth certificate.

Identity Theft Tip #5
It would be wise on your part to not carry your social security card or numbers with you. They along with your birth certificate and passport should be kept in a secure place that can be at home or in a safety deposit box. It's easy to not notice when I document you rarely use goes missing. Have a place for such documents so you know where they are at all times.

http://www.squidoo.com/identity-theft-tip

Heck, we advise our customers to remove their birth dates from their Facebook pages!!

http://www.nextadvisor.com/identity_theft_protection_services/facebook_identity_theft_protection_guide.php

And, yes, one could easily steal the president's identity and charge up his accounts and various other things before someone caught the perpetrator. Credit card companies look at numbers, not names, as a general rule.

[handmade34]

29. simply: facts and truth is not what birthers are about

they are fearful, ignorant racists. Some things are better not fed.

[ProfessorGAC]

35. Not As Clever As You Think Yourself To Be

Transparent, and boring.

Nice try. But, so obvious as to be ignorable.
GAC

[kestrel91316]

42. I note with some humor that you have utterly failed to respond to my many

posts providing you with legal information pertaining to certified copies of vital records in HI.

Here on DU we call people like you "hit-and-runs".

[Political Tiger]

43. Obama doesn't need to answer to the birthers. n/t

[TahitiNut]

44. "Convince me" ... an invitation to madness.

Since when should any sane person grant such crazies the authority of sitting in judgment?? It's an adversarial game ... one which attempts to place another person in a dependent position. These people are NOT interested in being shown 'proof' .... and are SOLELY interested in throwing shit on the wall. When this particular TURD stops sticking, they invent another. It's a mistake to treat such insane bigotry as though there's ANYTHING rational bout it.

They've gotten far too much acceptance already. The Obama campaign did more than any other campaign has done in history in accommodating such feces-flinging by proffering the Hawaii birth certificate. Beyond that, there is NOTHING that will "satisfy" such insane bigots. Nothing.

[kestrel91316]

47. Wheredja go, Spottie? Cat gotcher tongue?

[Jack Rabbit]

51. It won't satisfy very many of them

It will probably shut up Dobbs and King, if only because their bosses will suggest to them it not be a good career move to keep it up now that its been so completely debunked. It won't shut up a reprobate like Michael Savage and it sure as hell won't shut up the loony lady who hijacked Congressman Castle's town hall meeting in Delaware or people like her.

Mr. Obama has already put a copy of his birth certificate online. His grandparents but the birth announcement in the Honolulu newspaper the next day (he was born in the evening); had he been born in Kenya in 1961, they would probably not have been aware of the event until several days later since there were no communications satellites readily available to the general public at the time, so the cost of an overseas phone call was a bit prohibitive. Social conditions being what they were in 1961, it probably did not occur to Mr. and Mrs. Dunham that some day their black grandson would run for president with any serious chances of winning.

People who work with official documents like birth certificates know how to detects forgeries. To assume that this document is not genuine is to assume that all employees of the office of official records in Hawaii are either incompetent or crooked. That's not very likely.

In short, the die hard racists who will not concede that there is any such thing as a Afro-American who can be president will continue to assert that Mr. Obama is an Afro, but not an American, regardless of how stupid they look doing so.

[spotbird]

60. Thank you so much

for a thoughtful reply.

Please understand that I have no doubt that Obama is qualified for the office, and I'm completely serious about it. What I simply wish is that the president would allow media representatives, or most anyone else, to obtain a certified copy of a state issued birth certificate. The rest is impossible to address, but that one simple thing is.

[Blue_Tires]

74. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Because we have all seen the short form in the teevee machine

it will not matter.

That said you are right, this is persecution of the president II... plain and simple and every time we see a dem get the WH... mark my words, you will see this insanity until that whacko fringe is dealt with... and I have no idea how to deal with it.

All I can say is... WHO BENEFITS?

[crispini]

62. They put a copy on the web way back during the campaign.

I'm pretty sure I saw it at media matters, why don't you check there?

[spotbird]

65. Please refer back to

my original post.

[crispini]

72. Your OP asked why they don't release the birth certificate

my answer was that they did, what's so confusing about that?