Should Heath Care Reform pay for Abortions or should it be between Doctor and Patient?

[KoKo]

Should it be limited to One or Two abortions? In a females life they might get Pregnant at 14 and later get Pregnant with a Pregnancy they cannot afford.

Should we create a system where groups like "Planned Parenthood" get funding for Rape, Incest or just plain" Unplanned" get coverage as an "Ancillary Group" with no questions asked....or should we make a Womens Right to have an Abortion LIMITED or UNLIMITED in a National Health Care Plan?

How many Abortions should be paid for? Should there be a Limit or Not on one Person's Health Care Plan?

It's a question. If one has 4 or 5 Abortions ....then should it be covered by "Public Insurance or PRIVATE?


Should the 1st or 2nd Abortion be FULLY COVERED?

Should only the lst be Covered and the rest is up to you and the guy who got you Pregnant for the 2nd.

I don't know... :shrug:

[mediaman007]

1. I have to pay for plenty of stuff that I don't agree with (School of the America's),

so why should anyone else get to dictate what they have to pay for?

[KoKo]

4. Agree..but it's Health Insurance for Americans up for Vote...so we have a narrow voice here..

:shrug: And...Yep I don't like paying for the rest of that CRAP for WAR, EITHER!

[sharesunited]

2. How does Health Canada respond to abortion procedures?

[KoKo]

5. That's an interesting Question...How do the French or British pay for it also..

I'll do a Google.

[KoKo]

15. Here's something about Paying for Abortions in France:

http://france.angloinfo.com/countries/france/abortion.asp

Termination of Pregnancy/Abortion in France
The family-planning organisation, the French Movement for Family Planning (Mouvement Français Pour le Planning Familial/MFPF) is responsible for providing information on contraception, abortion (avortement), sexually transmitted diseases and AIDS (SIDA). The website (in French) is comprehensive and provides information relevant to all regions of France.

* For the Planning Familial website: Click here

Emergency Contraception/The "Morning-After Pill"

In the event of contraceptive failure, an emergency contraceptive pill (la contraception d'urgence), called NorLevo, is available. It prevents the implantation of a fertilised egg and should be taken as soon after having un-protected sex as possible and within three days at the latest (though it may be effective for up to five days after intercourse).

This emergency contraception is available at pharmacies: without a prescription (unreimbursed by social security) as well as with a prescription (reimbursed by social security). The unreimbursed cost is €4-10. It is free for minors.

* For information from MFPF on emergency contraception: Click here (in French)

Termination of Pregnancy

Termination of pregnancy (IVG) is legal in France up to 12-weeks after conception. There is one week period of compulsory "reflection" prior to termination, except in an urgent case where this can be reduced to two days.

Minors (girls under 18 years of age) and unmarried women must meet with a counsellor during the week prior to the process and in the days immediately after.

Minors do not need parental consent, however they must be accompanied by an adult (person over 18 years of age) throughout the procedure. Single women do not need to provide the agreement of the partner. A non-resident visitor to France may legally have a pregnancy terminated while in France.

Note: A doctor has the right to refuse to perform an abortion but should direct the woman to the family planning organisation or a medical practitioner who can help.
Arranging a termination

A woman may begin by visiting the doctor of her choice, a public hospital or a private clinic practising abortion. After this initial consultation, certain laboratory tests may be required.

* To find the nearest IVG clinic: Click here (enter a department in the space below Contacts Départementaux at the top left corner of the page)

Recommended documents to take:

At the initial medical consultation, it is suggested to bring the following:

* card proving blood type (carte de groupe sanguin)
* medical records (dossier médical)
* prescriptions (ordonnances) of any ongoing treatment
* social security card (Carte Vitale)

Costs

For those registered with the French social security system, 80 percent of the fee is covered by the system. Some private insurance companies (mutuels) will pay the remainder or some portion of the remainder. It is possible to request financial assistance to cover part or all of the cost.

For those not resident in France, it may be possible to receive reduced-rate medical assistance, though not all hospitals or clinics will do so. Some clinics and hospitals will ask the patient to sign a non-binding certificate stating they intend to remain in France, others will request that they show they are or will live in France for at least two months.

For minors, the entire cost is covered by social security.
Confidentiality

For those concerned with confidentiality - especially if they are registered with social security through a spouse or parent - clinics and hospitals have a coding system that does not identify the procedure in regards to social security billing or reimbursement.


{bAbortions are illegal in Monaco except to save a mother's life. A person with Monagasque social security may be referred to a doctor in France, however fees for the procedure or the abortion pill will not be reimbursed.

[mamaleah]

53. They have a waiting period for an abortion in France?

Termination of pregnancy (IVG) is legal in France up to 12-weeks after conception. There is one week period of compulsory "reflection" prior to termination, except in an urgent case where this can be reduced to two days.

Wow!

[Gwendolyn]

8. Canadians pay for it through national health care.

The Brits and the French do as well.

People in all three sometimes prefer to pay for it out of pocket because the accommodations are cushier, and there's no waiting period (France and UK).

[KoKo]

17. Can you get me a link to how Candians pay for Abortions? I'm having trouble finding..

Thanks. I think it's important we understand how other countries deal with this so we can counter the Right Wing. I just posted how France handles it... I'd like to know how Canada and the UK handle them.

[Gwendolyn]

21. Here you go.

Canadians pay for health care through taxes. Abortions are covered under the system as they should be. Everyone pays taxes to cover their health care and it's no one's business how a woman uses up her own health care dollars. Some provinces only provide for abortions at hospitals which is less private as usually appointments are scheduled for a roomful of people at once. People who have extra cash can pay for it out of pocket if they want, in which case your own OBGYN might do it, in a more private setting.

http://www.prochoice.org/canada/regional.html

[baldguy]

3. Federally funded programs should uphold the Constitution.

[rocktivity]

6. Should Heath Care Reform pay for Pregnancy and Birth or should it be between Doctor and Patient?

Should it be limited to One or Two births?

Should there be a Limit or Not on one Person's Health Care Plan?

It's a question. If one has 4 or 5 births....then should it be covered by insurance or PRIVATE?

Should the 1st or 2nd boirth be FULLY COVERED? Should only the lst be Covered and the rest is up to you and the guy who got you Pregnant for the 2nd.


:evilgrin:
rocktitivy

[rgbecker]

11. Should Auto insurance companies only pay for one drunk driving

accident or after the first one, the guy the drunk driver injures should have to collect straight from the drunk driver and the rest is up to the special drunk drivers fund? WTF?

[elehhhhna]

12. DING DING DING You win !

Rock on.

[valerief]

14. Perfecto. nt

[debbierlus]

41. Thank you. Pay for abortions. Period. Just like any other health care service...

What about the treatment of heart attacks for people who eat lots of fastfood?

Or, people who smoke cigarettes & get cancer?

Should have known better, shouldn't they?

[fascisthunter]

80. did not even think of that counter argument

way to go!

[csziggy]

7. It should be between a woman and her doctor

But I do think that part of the process should be counseling on reproductive choices and family planning, especially since in so many areas there is little taught on those subjects in schools. And stop the doctors from limiting the women's choices.

For me as a young adult, birth control pills were not effective. Doctors would not prescribe IUDs - I never understood why. I finally ended up finding a doctor who would let me have the tubal ligation I wanted in the first place. But it was an uphill battle every step of the way since the doctors I consulted wanted to make the moral decisions for me, including second guessing my choice to never have children.

If a woman wants many children that is her choice. If she needs more than one abortion, again that is her choice - but I cannot believe that women willing put themselves in situations where they have multiple abortions. I suspect that after one abortion, women who need another may be in situations where they have not been provided or allowed a good choice. And that is a scenario where counseling will be essential.

But in the last thirty years things have not seriously improved and in some cases they have gotten worse. Family planning counseling has been limited and birth control choices are not always available because federal funding was being withheld from programs. Those are part of a woman's health choices and should be available to all women as soon as they become fertile.

[colinmom71]

9. The reasons behind why the woman is having an abortion are irrelevant to whether...

the procedure should be covered. Abortions should be covered by a public plan solely for the purpose of ensuring that all abortions are performed in a medically safe manner and that proper follow-up care is provided.

As my current health coverage currently stands, abortion IS a private medical issue between my physician and myself AND is covered by my insurance just like any other out-patient surgical procedure, without limitation beyond the provider being an approved, licensed physician with experience in family clinic planning services. I do not think this coverage should be a luxury of being married to a man with a good corporate job, but rather every woman deserves to receive safe, solid, and affordable health care...

[Spike89]

10. Should stop smoking aids be covered?

I know where you're going, but you either cover a procedure or you don't. If a woman needs an abortion and it is covered, why in the world would it matter if it was her 1st, 10th, or 10,000th? You're making an unstated assumption that either the woman is "at fault" for going through the procedure multiple times, or that abortions must be so fun that we must limit them so women don't spend all their time and our money getting abortions.

It is simple, why she needs/wants an abortion is not your business, even if you "pay for it with taxes" just like it isn't my business where you drive on the roads I pay for.

Cover abortion or not, I actually have only a slight bias for coverage. However, start talking about limits and judging whether a woman "deserves" an abortion is creepy.

[valerief]

13. When did abortion become illegal? Isn't it still a medical procedure?

[KoKo]

18. No...it varies from state to state, health care plan to health care plan...

and for folks in rural areas it's almost impossible because folks in small towns can't get access to either Planned Parenthood or a Doctor who isn't against Abortion.

It's difficult in the case of rape and incest in small communities with only one local doctor (who knows everyone in the community) for any female to be able to get the health care she needs in case of rape or incest.

[valerief]

23. It sucks living in this Third World country. nt

[KoKo]

25. I know it does seem we sink further and further down that road. N/t

[dysfunctional press]

39. so are nose jobs and facelifts...

should all elective procedures be covered?

[Gwendolyn]

46. Abortion is cosmetic surgery?

Well la-di-dah!!! The people who go on to have children seem to think giving birth is a pretty big deal. They claim there's life long responsibility involved. We even put people in jail when they don't take proper care of their kids. All this time people thought having children was somehow a little more elevated in consequence than having a beauty treatment. Go figure. :shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

51. no- it's an elective procedure.

:eyes:

except in cases of medical necessity.

[Gwendolyn]

59. Oh brother. Another BIG payer into the system with an opinion.

:eyes:

How many abortions have you paid for personally so far? Do you even pay taxes? If you do, and live where health care is "FREE" you would know that even the poor and healthy, pay for the rich and sick. Anyone who advocates free health care and believes it's only the middle class or wealthy who pay for it, are complete idiots. The ideology behind single payer/public option is that people get to pay for their own health care instead of getting none at all, due to insurance fraud/whatever you want to call it. If women are paying for their own health care, they should get it. All single payer and public option countries work this way, but you go ahead and roll your eyes anyway dude.


:eyes:

[dgibby]

108. So is having a baby. n/t

[valerief]

63. Abortion is elective? Like in vitro? nt

[EndersDame]

85. I have witnessed abortions up close

I have held hands with women going through them (through an organization that shall remain nameless) and I think that it is just disgusting that you equate making the decision to have an abortion with getting a nose job. I have seen college kids with bright futures 14 year olds and moms with several kids have abortions . It is not an easy choice and it certainly was not their first choice! It is heartbreaking and gut wrenching!

[ProudDad]

16. ALL basic health care MUST be covered

no freakin' exceptions!

ALL HEALTH CARE should be between health care professionals and their patients -- nobody else allowed in the freakin' decision!

Especially religions and their damn myths!

[ColbertWatcher]

29. Thank you. THREAD OVER. n/t

[Politicub]

19. Lets make up more bizarre hypotheticals

What if someone has an appendectomy, a nose job to correct a prior nose job, an abortion, lap band surgery followed by gastric bypass, two stitches due to trying to open one of those awful hard plastic shells, stomach pumping after eating too many mini quiches, ice on a swollen uvula from chronic hiccups, detox for steroids, carpal tunnel surgery after too much self love, and a finger split?

Should that be FULLY COVERED? Or, should only the swollen uvula thing? And HOW MANY finger splints should be covered?

:shrug:

[KoKo]

20. You are equating Cosmetic Surgery with Cosmetic...

And, you are missing that none of us have "Cosmetic or frivolus surgery" covered. We can't even get basic coverage. You are lumping things together that have no relevance to the discussion about BASIC HEALTH CARE.

[petersjo02]

22. Absolutely!!!

I had one in 1975, when safe and legal abortions were brand new (failure of IUD). BC/BS through employer paid in full, no questions asked. I don't see why we should backtrack 35 yrs to spare the wingnuts from hyperventilating now in '09. Easier and cheaper than having my tax dollars go to raising kids on welfare. Screw Chuck Grassley (one of my senators).

[REP]

24. How many births are covered? One? Three? Ten? Marrieds only, or single teens, too?

When you can limit the number of births that are covered, come back and talk to me about limiting the number of abortions. Until then, stop being the right wing's handmaid.

[SleeplessInAlabama]

26. Paying for abortion IS keeping it betwen Doctor and Patient. n/t

[City Lights]

27. How many Viagra pills should be covered?

One? Two?

[SleeplessInAlabama]

28. Those things are EXPENSIVE! n/t

[me b zola]

31. Those "things" are medical procedures

What's your point?

[SleeplessInAlabama]

32. My point? Dunno, that they're expensive?

They are pills, not medical procedures, but they should be covered too.

[me b zola]

35. My humble apology

I misread your post. I thought that you were saying that an abortion is expensive. Again, my apology.

[Horse with no Name]

30. Any other LEGAL procedures/diagnosis you would like to exclude?

I think that people need to keep their fucking noses out of everyone's business...how about that one? I don't give a shit what you and your doctor discuss and I don't give a shit what treatment you decide on--and I expect the same fucking consideration.

[City Lights]

33. A-fucking-men!

:applause:

[dysfunctional press]

40. nose-jobs, tummy tucks, facelifts...etc.

elective procedures.

[Horse with no Name]

42. Are they protected under federal law?

I don't think so.
And FWIW, my current insurance doesn't pay for them now, either.

[REP]

48. Sagging jawlines aren't a risk to life/health. EVERY pregnancy is.

Read a textbook sometime, and not a right wing wank site, wouldya?

[dysfunctional press]

52. .

[REP]

55. Ha!

[Regret My New Name]

34. As with anything... I'd think it should, but there should be checks to ensure it's not abused...

I would assume that such things would be rare, since I don't think there are many women who just sooo love getting abortions...

*more thoughts*

Then again, if there is someone out there who does insist on not using birth control, and thus continues to get pregnant... What do you do? Force them to have the child? Force them to be sterilized? I don't like those... Oh well, I'm just going to go hide and pretend the world doesn't exist.

[REP]

36. How many births is "abusive"?

Let me know when you come up with a number you can defend.

[Regret My New Name]

75. Well, I would say people shouldn't have more than two kids...

of course that is just my personal belief, and I in no way support the idea of forcing that on others... Much like I don't like the idea of forcing someone to have a child or force sterilization, I don't like the idea of forced abortions either... That being said, I question the sanity of anyone who collects kids or who refuse to use birth control. Yeah shit happens, but shit shouldn't continue to happen over and over unless you're "doing it wrong"...

[REP]

88. So, after two kids, DIY deliveries?

Personally, I think one is enough, but I also know better than to plan other peoples' lives. When you grow up, you might too.

[Regret My New Name]

100. Are you looking for someone to disagree with?

I'm going to have to reread what I wrote, but I'm pretty sure I said nothing about controlling what people do. Yeah, I said I didn't like the idea... However, it really is an issue that will have to be addressed at some point. That goes for everything, from having children to abortion... Really, I was working off a false premise anyways, I was viewing it as people from be prevented from having a child or having an abortion. I think the debate would most likely be that they would simply have to cover it themselves after some quota is reached. Which may or may not restrict their options, depending on their situation.

[dysfunctional press]

37. unless it's medically necessary, it should be treated as an elective procedure...

kind of like a nose job or liposuction.

[Lyric]

44. Having a poochy tummy or a crooked nose is not a life-threatening condition.

Pregnancy IS a risk to a woman's life. Women literally risk their very lives when they choose to carry a pregnancy to term.

Comparing the termination of a pregnancy to getting a nose job or a liposuction is both nauseatingly stupid and incredibly insensitive.

[REP]

47. Admit that abortions are fun!!

God, I wish I hadn't been sterilized so I could have one right now. Right after my manipedinosejob.

[dysfunctional press]

50. well- if a woman feels that a pregnancy is too risky for her to contemplate...

the elective abortion that's taxpayer-funded should also include a tubal ligation, so that she won't have to worry about putting her life at risk in the future.

[REP]

56. You're fun!

Read a teensy bit more (medical textbooks, and have a trusted adult explain the hard parts to you) and stay off the right wing wank sites, and maybe, just maybe one day your opinion will be good for more than just giggles.

[Lyric]

66. Have you ever heard of the Constitution?

Because with the advocacy for an invasive medical procedure to be inflicted upon a certain subset of female U.S. citizens without their consent, I'm kinda thinking you haven't. :eyes:

You should read it sometime, along with the brilliant legal interpretations of it that have led to such wonders as the right to privacy and the right to keep the government from invading your body without consent. I suspect that increasing the level of what you read might help you to unFreep your brain. We don't advocate for Fascism around here.

In the meantime--kindly go Cheney yourself.

:hi:

[colinmom71]

110. What about those of us who do not want to risk further scarring and complications...

from yet another abdominal surgery? I had a rather complicated C-section that caused adhesions and nerve damage, and the thought of another abdominal surgery is a daunting prospect. I still have limited sensation and function in my lower left abdominal quadrant almost 14 years later.

And yet, you claim that I and any other woman like me should endure another surgery in order to rest your moral qualms? Just because a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy does not mean that she should be forcibly surgically sterilized against her will as some draconian form of punishment...

[REP]

45. Just like having a baby ... completely elective. Right?

Having a baby isn't a medical necessity. Why should I pay for someone else to have a child? They can pay if they want one, right?

You are totally right, though - abortions are just like cosmetic surgery. My god, who wouldn't want to have an abortion? Sooo fun and smoothes out wrinkles!

Ass.

[Hekate]

38. >patience...patience< >losing it< IT IS A MEDICAL PROCEDURE. A LEGAL MEDICAL PROCEDURE

Why would it NOT be covered? It's not a damn face lift. Are you perchance volunteering to be the all-wise gatekeeper?

Nobody with access to birth control has "4 or 5 abortions" -- that happens in places that restrict access to contraception. In both post-war Japan and in the former Soviet Union, contraceptives were hard to come by but abortion was legal and easy. In nations that outlaw both contraception and abortion, illegal abortion becomes the backup to coitus interruptus.

You want to reduce abortions? Make sure we have both sex-ed in the schools and cheaply available contraceptives. Mandate that insurance companies pay for women's NECESSARY MEDICAL SUPPLIES instead of making women pay out of pocket for them. Mandate that pharmacists stock and dispense Plan B regardless of their opinion of it or lose their licenses.

Your frame for your line of questioning is that abortions are simply evil and never necessary, and that someone (perhaps yourself) thinks paying for them is an imposition from the get-go. Well, what if I resent paying for Viagra prescriptions for men? How about I appoint myself the all-wise gatekeeper for that medication? I think a survey of the sex-lives of the men in question is a really good idea, and that any man who is not married and is not planning to have children just doesn't need the little blue orgasm pill. If we're going to be judgmental and intrusive, why not go all the way?

:rant:

Hekate

[Gwendolyn]

49. What I don't get is why dems suddenly think they're the major contributors to charity here.

The idea behind having single payer or public option is that the middle man is cut out, or his profits slashed so that MORE PEOPLE can afford to buy their OWN health care. The person who contributes $500 a year for 20 years as opposed to the person who contributes $5000 a year is not necessarily taking advantage of the system, or relying on the charity of those who pay more. Under public option or single payer, the low income person may be healthy as horse their entire life and only require the odd doctor's visit a year for decades. THEY may be paying for YOUR cancer treatments, even though you think you're subsidizing all those "poor people." (Not you personally... in general. Sorry to use your post as a diving board.)

Why don't people get this? :shrug: Fuck people are stupid!!!

And if people, including women, are paying for their own health care, why shouldn't they demand that they get a bang for their buck and receive the care they pay for with their premiums.

[Fire1]

43. FULL COVERAGE 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. n/t

[gabby garcia]

54. frickin brilliant..

and if you've irresponsibly used up that first then the second abortion you suddenly need after having been raped or whatever is the financial responsibility of who exactly... your rapist? do you think you should have to prove you were raped in order to get that second one?

how about this - it's no one's f'n business how many abortions you might need and/or why.

[REP]

57. The stupid is strong in this thread

For one thing, a lot of "deep thinkers" don't know that "elective" doesn't mean what they think it does in medical parlance.

[omega minimo]

58. That doesn't make any SENSE!!!!!! and this OP is FLAMEBAIT that is detrimental...........

[Gwendolyn]

60. Any opportunity to educate is fine.

Also, who knew that many dems think getting away from employer-based health care is somehow charity. Many people here are making so many advanced moral calls based on the idea that THEY are the heros who will be paying for all the "poor people." How dumb are dems? Mostly poor people will be paying for their own shit illnesses, and will ALSO be contributing to the rich as well. Everyone's been reading too many Reader's Digest stories about how the poor person was saved by the kindly rich, or church-going middle-class people. That ain't how it works. I'm shocked by the opinions of others on this.

[omega minimo]

61. Appreciate that -- but this is an opportunity to MISinform from the nonsense OP question

Appreciate that --
but this is an opportunity to MISinform
from the nonsense OP question and confused text...

it's already DOING what is bound to happen in a thread,
under the circumstances you point out.

That's flamebait.

I appreciate your confidence and willingness to try.

[Gwendolyn]

62. Thanks my dear. Not sure what you said, but for the last line.

We're on the same side, but unfortunately, I never understand what you say. And you don't understand me. :shrug:

[endarkenment]

64. Only odd numbered abortions

the even numbered ones should be done in back alleys by unemployed barbers.

:wtf:

[booley]

65. Known to many women

Who had to get an abortion for medical reasons.

Call me biased but I am not willing to see my friends die so some politician can play to his base.

[WeDidIt]

67. I believe abortions should be covered when there is medical necessity.

If it's an elective procedure, no.

If there is medical necessity, then yes.

For example, if somebody requires cosmetic surgery to repair damage from a car accident, that should be covered. If, however, the cosmetic surgery is elective, it should not. This should hold true for abortion procedures. IF there is a danger to the woman's health or the fetus is suffering from some defect like anencephaly, the procedure should be covered. IF the woman is exercising her right to choose not to carry a pregnancy to term, the procedure is elective and it should not be covered.

[Lars39]

68. There is a danger to a woman's health...with every single pregancy

she has the very real risk of dying or being permenently injured.

[WeDidIt]

69. There is similar danger to a woman's health with every single abortion

You need more than the simple statistics of complications to pregnancy, you need hard medical diagnosis to demonstrate medical necessity.

[Lars39]

76. Sorry, there's more risk during pregnancy and childbirth.

Things can go from just hunky-dory to life or death pretty damn quick without any warning during childbirth.

[WeDidIt]

92. See post 90

[REP]

103. Just more garbage there

[REP]

89. If lies were fertilizer, that post has too much nitrogen

Pray tell, from which right wing wank site did you get your "all abortions are risky" gem? Have you ever tried looking at a site like the CDC, or is that too risky?

[WeDidIt]

93. See post 90 n/t

[REP]

102. I didn't see any facts; just more crap

[Lyric]

70. Yet another so-called liberal comparing abortion to a nosejob.

Tell me, when was the last time that a crooked nose endangered someone's life? Do people die of saggy boobs often?

Now answer the same question about pregnancy and childbirth. Do women die because of pregnancy? Do they die in childbirth?

If you leave a wrinkled face alone and forego cosmetic surgery to fix it, nothing happens. There is no risk to your life. The same is NOT true of pregnancy. Even in a "normal" pregnancy, women can die. Pregnancy thickens the blood, increases blood volume, and stresses the heart and circulatory system as a natural and normal effect. Strokes, deadly blood clots, cardiac arrest due to heart strain--these are all ways that a "normal" pregnancy can potentially kill a perfectly healthy woman. Now add in the fact that many serious pregnancy complications don't show up until it's too late for an abortion in many cases--eclampsia is a good example of that--so what starts out as a normal pregnancy doesn't end up that way, but the window of opportunity for an abortion has passed.

All of these are things that women have to think about and fear when it comes to facing a pregnancy. We KNOW that we risk dying, but for some of us who WANT the baby, the end result is worth the risk. How horrible is it to say that a poor woman MUST risk her life--that she has no choice? That the government doesn't care if she dies for a baby she doesn't even want?

And make no mistake, it is only POOR women that we're talking about. Rich and middle-class women will have their abortions regardless of whether or not the government pays. The only women whose lives are being so blithely compared to nosejobs and facelifts are the POOR women--of which I am one, as is my sister, my mother, HER mother, and everyone else in my family.

I hope you reconsider your opinion on this, because the viewpoint you espouse is wrong on about a hundred different levels.

[WeDidIt]

72. Abortion carries a similar health risk as childbirth

Thus a definite diagnosis of enhanced risk must be made for the procedure to be medically necessary.

I would further argue that birth control should be covered in all cases as there is demonstrable medical necessity, but Viagra should never be covered as it is completely elective.

[endarkenment]

73. feh

this place disgusts me. 'democratic underground' - right.

[WeDidIt]

74. Feh

what I described is the ONLY possible way abortion will be covered via a public option, so you best get used to it.

[Lars39]

77. Why should we even give you a platform to espouse your anti-woman views?

You won't ever get pregnant since you are male.

[WeDidIt]

78. Why should we give you a platform to espouse your hyperbole?

I am not anti-woman.

I am pro-reality.

Reality is, there will be no blanket coverage for abortion in any public option.

[Lars39]

79. Dude, you are on progressive board talking about not covering a legal

medical procedure that can concern the life or death, or quality of life of women.

[WeDidIt]

81. You're talking about covering an elective procedure that is as risky or more risky

than the pregnancy in most cases.

Ain't gonna happen.

Demonstrate medical necessity and I'm all for covering it. I'm all for covering birth control because birth control is demonstrably less risky than pregnancy. Abortion is not demonstrably less risky than pregnancy in the vast majority of cases.

[Lars39]

82. And of course you've got credible stats to back that up.

[WeDidIt]

91. See post 90

n/t

[Lyric]

109. Post 90 contains ZERO links or citations. It's nothing but your words.

But I know where you got your info. You got it here: http://www.pregnancycenters.org/abortion.html

Of course, that site (and OptionLine) are right-wing shill orgs supported by groups like National Right to Life. In other words--you just did the equivalent of quoting Rush Limbaugh and expecting everyone here to buy it. Unfortunately for you, we aren't that damned stupid.

[Scout]

83. prove that please

"Abortion is not demonstrably less risky than pregnancy in the vast majority of cases"

i bet you can't, 'cuz it's not true.

[WeDidIt]

94. See post 90

REsponded to the wrong post, but cover it in post 90.

[Scout]

107. not proof n/t

[REP]

86. Oh, I smell bullshit

Document or prove you're a right-wing shill. Go ahead; back up that abortion is riskier than childbirth.

[WeDidIt]

95. See post 90 n/t

[WeDidIt]

90. Well, let's look at individual procedures

RU-486 holds a lower risk than carrying the pregnancy to term. It should be covered regardless

If we go with manual vacuum aspiration, risk is lower than carrying the preganancy to term in most cases. I'll grant that, so that specific procedure should always be covered in all cases. Problem is, it must be performed within 7 weeks of the last menstrual cycle, so that's very early on.

When we go to Suction Curetagge, risk increases fairly dramatically and most pregnancies will be less risky if carried to term. Even so, some complications could be present, especially in women over about 35 years old, so I would not have a problem covering that procedure in pregnancies that have complications involved or for women over about 35 (medical professionals should really determine when age is a factor and no hard and fast rules should be applied with specific ages). Medical necessity should be determined by the attending physician. If the physician determines the risk of carrying the pregnancy to term outweighs the risk of Suction Curetagge, it absolutely should be covered.

Dilation and Evacuation is more risky and should never be covered as an elective. It should only be covered for medical necessity.

Dilation and extraction would be covered in nearly all cases because the procedure is only ever performed for reasons of medical necessity.

[Lars39]

96. You're not citing your information....just throwing out all those RW talking points.

[WeDidIt]

97. What rightwing talking points?

I covered the procedures.

[REP]

101. Fail.

Vacuum aspiration and suction curettage are >gasp< the same procedures!

D&Es are performed following a spontaneous abortion; a missed spontaneous abortion; as a diagnostic procedure for several endometrial conditions; as part of exploratory diagnostic laprascopic surgery ... none of these have anything to do with induced abortion.

D&X is a "late-term abortion" as is an Intact Dilation and Extraction (IDX).

You have provided proof of only one thing: you are a right-wing shill. Thank you for having the courage to do that.

Less than .03% of women who have abortion have complications serious enough to require hospital care.

In the US, there are 11 maternal deaths per 100,000 births.

In 2000, 4 women died from abortion-related complications. 4. F O U R.

(Souce: CDC)

[Cleita]

71. Women's health should be covered and that would

include abortions. I mean if men can get viagra and vasectomies, I think women should be able to get safe medical abortions without rationing applied.

[B Calm]

84. Last time I checked, abortion was legal!

[EndersDame]

87. Believe me an abortion is not somebody's first choice

I have held hands with women going through them and believe me it is painful and gut wrenching ! I believe that anyone who thinks they are just a walk in the park or women choose use abortion as birth control are nuts! The pill doesn't always work and sometimes women can't use the pill sometimes condoms break or people are forced

[AngryOldDem]

98. I've just about had it with the abortion discussion.

The procedure is legal in this country. It is medical. It should be available, it should be covered under insurance, as is most every other medical procedure currently known to science. Put similar restrictions on it as is in force with other medical procedures.

Jesus...if we can see fit to provide insurance coverage for boob jobs, nose jobs, and hard-on pills, why the controversy over a **bonafide** medical procedure?

The right wingnuts are using this as yet one more wedge in the debate. To their mind every goddamn woman in America is just chomping at the bit to have an abortion, like it's fun, easy, and carefree. I'm sick of that insulting assumption, which is why I've just about had it with the whole discussion.

Short answer to your question: Yes, health care reform should include abortion. What health care is good for some, should be good for all.

[EndersDame]

99. I totally agree It is just disgusting when they insinuate that girls

just want to have an abortion or that it is just a blasé decision

[nightrain]

104. so, if we look at pregnancy as a medical/health condition, like say diabetes

or chronic ear infections, broken bones, or chemical dependency, or hypertension--do we limit how many times we treat that person? These might be repeat opportunties for intervention/exploration with the person experiencing them as to why the thing is happening time and time again.

[BalancedGoat]

105. I don't think they should be fully covered.

But that opinion has nothing to do with abortion itself and everything to do with how I would like to see healthcare reformed. I think that only a select few things should be fully covered. People are more likely to overuse a service if it's free. I'm a fan of the french system as described here.

"That focus is abetted by the French system's innovative response to one of the trickier problems bedeviling health-policy experts: an economic concept called "moral hazard." Moral hazard describes people's tendency to overuse goods or services that offer more marginal benefit without a proportionate marginal cost. Translated into English, you eat more at a buffet because the refills are free, and you use more health care because insurers generally make you pay up front in premiums, rather than at the point of care. The obvious solution is to shift more of the cost away from premiums and into co-pays or deductibles, thus increasing the sensitivity of consumers to the real cost of each unit of care they purchase."

"A wiser approach is to seek to separate cost-effective care from unproven treatments, and align the financial incentives to encourage the former and discourage the latter. The French have addressed this by creating what amounts to a tiered system for treatment reimbursement. As Jonathan Cohn explains in his new book, Sick:

In order to prevent cost sharing from penalizing people with serious medical problems -- the way Health Savings Accounts threaten to do -- the government limits every individual's out-of-pocket expenses. In addition, the government has identified thirty chronic conditions, such as diabetes and hypertension, for which there is usually no cost sharing, in order to make sure people don't skimp on preventive care that might head off future complications."

It's an interesting blend that maintains some economic sensitivity for the patient while also focusing on preventative treatment. A rational approach to keeping total costs down, which is one of the biggest problems with the current system.


Edit: I meant this as a reply to the OP and not to this sub-topic. Sorry for any confusion.

[nightrain]

106. good luck with attempting to implement that. Sounds more like a

high deductible plan that no one dares use. I approach it (obviously) from the other side--If we provide what people need, then they'll be less likely to "overuse". If they "overuse", practitioners address that with them, not out of the starting gate by drastically limiting care.

[freddie mertz]

111. As long as abortion is legal

It should be covered.

Why are you raising this Republican scare-issue anyway?