Did Henry Louis Gates overreact or was his reaction justified?

[snake in the grass]

I've been following the threads on the arrest of Henry Louis Gates and some of the more, shall we say, passionate discussions seem to reveal a pattern; hence this poll. By the nature of the questions, you'll figure out what I'm getting at.

Discussions welcome and encouraged.

Edit for grammar and new polling group.

[Withywindle]

1. If you identify as neither fully white nor black, are you allowed to answer?

For the record, I'm half white and half Latina, and I think Gates was justified.

[BlooInBloo]

8. Nope. I'll apologize now for Native Americans, Asians of all stripes, Indians, Latinos, M. E. folks

and all others who have been left out as irrelevant.

[snake in the grass]

21. I didn't have room to add every conceivable ethnic group.

For the most part, the posts on other threads follow a black/white scheme.

[cherokeeprogressive]

33. Since none of us where there, it's impossible to say with any certainty

who was right and who was wrong.

For me, that's what your poll left out, and why I didn't vote in it.

[snake in the grass]

15. I've added another group...

...but, unfortunately, I won't be able to cover all ethnicities. I'm just trying to get an idea of how big the gap is along ethnic lines after reading many of the more heated posts.

[MUAD_DIB]

2. I haven't taken the poll yet, but by setting it up along racial lines doesn't that

attract a possible cheat by dubious DUers/trolls with an axe to grind?

[snake in the grass]

17. It's possible but...

...that also reveals something.

[MUAD_DIB]

22. Everything reveals something at times.

[babylonsister]

3. You are making it about race. I'm white, he was

wronged, in my opinion. Why are you belaboring this point?

[snake in the grass]

6. I'm making it about 'race' because...

...most of the heated discussions are about race and I'm curious how big the discrepancy is along racial lines.

[BlooInBloo]

10. The discrepancy is big. We white folks know perfectly well not to SHOW it in polls like this tho.

[omega minimo]

24. It's not about race, it's about law.

[LooseWilly]

49. To quote from #6

"...most of the heated discussions are about race"

Hence, I presume, the use of race in the poll, to see what is to be seen about perspective of the pollee in the judgement made.

Ok, that said... feel free to go back to re-framing the discussion to suit your perspective... and then feel free to keep interrupting any attempts at dialogue by inserting a skewed re-answering for every post as if everyone else were also discussing the issue from your perspective, despite the fact that they aren't, so that you can explain to them how they are actually wrong, rather than just not indulging you by accepting the framework for the discussion that you'd like to foist upon them.

[Sebastian Doyle]

4. By the time Mr. Gates had confirmed his own identity and ownership of the residence in question

The cops should have been apologizing to him, and were, in fact, there without cause at any point after that.

Black, white, red, or purple, the arrest was way the fuck over the line.

[EFerrari]

5. We don't know how he reacted. All we have is a police report written

by the same cop that made a bad arrest.

[MercutioATC]

9. We also have Gates' own statement:

http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,0

[EFerrari]

46. That statement contains nada about his reaction at being abused by racist assholes.

[anigbrowl]

41. #9, and there are 2 police reports - Officer Carlos Figueroa's (Harvard police) also

[Hannah Bell]

7. It doesn't matter if he overreacted; he produced proof he lived there, the police should have

verified (takes less than 10 minutes) then left.

Personally, I'd "overreact" myself if it happened to me.

Not cause for arrest.

[Aqaba]

11. Anybody, in their own home, would've...

...if they were a white Harvard professor - no arrest, regardless of anything.
...if they were a black Harvard professor - may have been arrested, depending on the inclinations of the police.

Lets face it. The police were assholes in this. The professor was rightfully outraged, it was his own home.

The proof is what he was charged with. It surely wasn't breaking and entering.

[LisaL]

18. You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

[Aqaba]

26. You're right.

Theres no way I could know what actually happened, or what it felt like.

Just like a bunch of black kids at summer camp could never be turned away from access to a swimming pool they paid for.

What was he charged with? It wasn't breaking and entering, or anything of the sort. In synopsis, he was charged with 'standing up to the man', on his own property.

Maybe he did get agitated (with good reason).

None of that excuses the Cambridge Police on the scene to discern the situation. Instead they pulled some fucked up shit out of their ass and hauled this black Harvard Professor down to the station to have his mugshot.

In the words of Barack Obama, 'the Cambridge Police acted stupidly'.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. How about "I don't know"? I WASN'T THERE, and...

have no way to tell what really went down.

As I said the last time I looked in a Gates thread, pretty much everyone is answering this question tinted by their own biases. They know no more than I or anyone else does, but that doesn't stop them from fulminating, bloviating, and just plain bullshitting.

[orwell]

13. Bingo!

We have a winner!

[Newshues]

14. understandable would be better than justified

justified implies a rightness or wrongness to the given situation, understandable just asks us if we can understand why a given person behaved a certain way in a given situation without having to make a decision as to rightness or wrongness.

I understand Gates' reaction, I also understand the officers reaction. I do not agree with either of their reactions. I do think that arresting Gates crossed into the realm of understandable stupidity. I do think the cop should have just given Gates his name and badge number, as Gates had asked for and the law requires, and then just gotten into his squad car and left.

I'm also pretty certain that a civil suit will be settled out of court in Gates' favor and I'm ok with that.

[snake in the grass]

20. I initially used "understandable"...

...but changed it after reading the posts on other threads. The justification argument sticks out more.

[MazeRat7]

16. White southern Texas male here...

I don't blame him one wit for his reaction. I would more than likely acted exactly the same. The only difference being, I know 5-0 is going to take you down if you don't "step and fetch" as they request. I don't like it, but they have us all buy the "short hairs". This gentleman has my total respect, I can only hope to be that courageous if I were to ever be confronted by a similar situation.

Honestly, I would more than likely cave. I've gone up against 5-0 and I've lost every time...The one thing I've learned is when to stop pushing and placate their authoritarian demands.

"Protect and Serve" my Ass.... more like, your my bitch and you better acknowledge that right now.

Peace,
MZr7

[LisaL]

19. And if somebody does break into your house

what would you want for police to do?

[MazeRat7]

25. Not "sombody" but the home owner....

If I'm trying to get into my own home and Ms Cravits (my neighbor) calls 5-0, well then perhaps 5-0 would discern my right to be in my own home.

As far as anybody else getting into my home.... That is a different scenario. Not related to this.

Peace,
MZr7

[LisaL]

29. How does police who gets a report of a possible break in know

whether it's a burglar or a homeowner whose keys don't work?
People expect police to protect them and their property, but police aren't psychic to know what exactly is going on when they get this report.

[MazeRat7]

31. Ask for ID ? I dunno.... If your name and address match.. well you might be the homeowner...n/t

[LooseWilly]

50. If someone breaks into my home

I expect the police to take over an hour to respond... just as they did when I wasted my time once calling them after I was assaulted... or when someone broke into my home. (And another two hours to reluctantly send someone to take fingerprints, after reluctantly taking a report.)

If I'm home, I'm just hoping that the police take long enough for me to arrange the scene after I shoot the poor bugger who breaks in.

Some people seem to think that the police are their friends. I'm honestly perplexed at the very notion. Of course, I'm half brown, so maybe that "colors" my perspective...

[LisaL]

53. Why would you need to arrange the scene if you shoot someone

who breaks in?
Really?

[LooseWilly]

61. Because I don't want to take a chance on the cops finding a reason to prosecute me anyway.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned that they're not my friends?

[givemebackmycountry]

23. I am in my own home, I just proved that to you, now leave...

White or black, you fuck with me where I live?
In the place that I OWN?
It's your ass.
White or black.

It's MY HOME.

And if I decide I want to enter through the front door, or my front window, or my fucking chimney, it's MY HOME and it's my business.
This is a FREE country(allegedly).

Once I prove that I am in MY OWN HOME?
STFU and LEAVE.
Or as I said above above.
It's your ass.

[Merlot]

27. I think the correct question is "did the cop overreact?"

[snake in the grass]

28. It's pretty clear that the cop overreacted. n/t

[vanlassie]

30. And if I was just arriving home after a flight from CHINA

I would be DAMN pissed off to be both jetlagged AND harrassed. Just saying.

[EFerrari]

32. Yep.

[MazeRat7]

34. Of course they did... and everything after that is CYA... n/t

[TexasObserver]

35. Too many police officers place feeding their ego over doing their job.

This kind of encounter is no different to them than making a puppy pee on the newspaper. They see it as their right to make citizens not speak to them in any way they don't care to be spoken to. They know the law gives them wide latitude, and they are trained to skirt it by covering for each other with lies that cover their asses.

We allow police to misbehave far, far too much.

[abumbyanyothername]

36. The best way to deal with the police

is to kiss their ass endlessly.

I can understand why Gates didn't do that, but the smart way to avoid trouble with the cops is to let them believe that they are in total and complete control at all times.

'Cause they are so damn scared that they aren't.

[Mimosa]

37. Hasn't Gates ever heard of a LOCKSMITH?

Damned if I'd get my driver to help me bust open a door. It costs a lot more to fix a broken door than to call a locksmith. DUH.

[omega minimo]

38. You don't know what you're talking about. Why be so noxious about it?

[Heidi]

39. It's not a crime for Henry Louis Gates Jr.

to not share your financial priorities (calling a locksmith vs. breaking down the door).

[Mimosa]

42. I didn't say it was: Gates is rich, I'm poor

Gates is 10,000 times richer than I. Obviously he wasn't very smart on that occasion.Us po folks don't like to bust down doors when we can't afford to fix them LOL.

[LisaL]

43. He was expecting for harvard property management to fix it.

I doubt he would have been paying for it either way.

[EFerrari]

47. He got in through his back door but tried to see if he could open

the front door. He didn't bust down anything.

[Hannah Bell]

44. he didn't bust open the front, he went & unlocked the back. & doubtful you find a

locksmith at night.

& if he wants to bust open his *own* door, wtf business is it of yours to judge?

[JTFrog]

56. Have you heard of hooked on phonics?

Maybe it would help your reading comprehension.

DUH.

[wisteria]

40. None of the above. I don't form my opinions based on the color of my skin. n/t

[LooseWilly]

51. I'll assume you're missing the point on purpose?

The fact that your skin has color (or the absence of color), and the fact that you do in fact, presumably, form opinions... and the fact that there is often a statistical capability of correlating trends of opinions formed with pigmentation of skin/favorite foods of the entity that forms said opinions.

I suppose you don't find it fascinating, either, that most white folk (that I've ever talked to anyway) judge OJ guilty, while most of those who judge him to have been innocent (that I've ever talked to anyway) are black folk?...

[Gwendolyn]

45. He's my grandmother's age. n/t

[SoCalDem]

48. He got put in a "box", no matter what he does or says.

If he says nothing, he has backed down, accepted an injustice.

If he speaks out, he's making a "big deal" out of "nothing".

as long as he was in class, on campus, on tv, in bookstores, he was an "acceptable" representative (even exemplory), BUT when he "appeared" to be "out of place", he was immediately reduced to a "suspect person". he was just a black man trying to break into a house , according to first his Kravitz-y neighbor, and then again, to the police.


A similar thing happened to my son a few years ago..TWICE in the same week.

1st event:

JC Penney:

My son and three of his friends were shopping there (my son is white, the other 3 were not). as they left, the doorway thing beeped. All 4 had shopping bags, and obviously someone did not remove something. Barney Fife (the security guy) flew into action and then 2 more showed up.

All of the boys got their receipts out, but the guard told my son to step aside, and then they spread eagled the other three against the wall while they rooted through their stuff, checked off each item and searched them. A pair of jeans ON THE RECEIPT, had been missed by the salesclerk, but it took 30 minutes for the whole incident to end. All they did to my son was to look in the bag, and a quick glance at the receipt.


2nd event: (3 days later)

My son;s friend's sister was a Laker Girl, so he was always getting primo Laker tickets. He invited 4 friends from his team to go with him. He dives a VW bug, so his friend Alex offered to drive them all.

About half way there, they heard a "woop-woop", and saw the lights. Immediately the cop tapped on the window with his baton, and told the driver to get out of the car.

Then he asked for ID from the kids. then all but my son were told to "get out of the car". My son got out anyway, but was told to get back in the car.

The reason for the stop. "Is this your car? License & registration.. and then he must have run all the other licenses too, even though they were passengers. Luckily no one had an overdue library book, but it soured the evening for them.

He let them go, but followed right behind them,,just looking for a dodgy lane change. Alex is a black kid driving his Dad's new Escalade..in La..with a white kid and 3 hispanic kids in the back seat.. all decked out in their Laker gear..

The only thing that "saved" the night was that jack Nicholson bought them hot dogs that night:)

[LooseWilly]

52. Just FYI... if your son gets any tattoos, or more piercings than a single earring...

then he can look forward to the same treatment as his friends at the hands of the cops (more often than not anyway). Except maybe in East LA, or Compton, or South Central (etc.), where he will probably still be seen as "relatively respectable" in the eyes of the local cops. Relativity is a funny thing...

[Gwendolyn]

54. He's an academic. Of course he can't be in charge of keys.

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

57. He used his keys to go in through the back door.

But I see you're not an academic and can't be in charge of knowing what you're talking about.

[babylonsister]

58. +10!

:rofl:

[redqueen]

59. Hahahahahah

Well played. :)

[TexasObserver]

55. justified

[Bolo Boffin]

60. There is only one aspect of Prof. Gates' behavior that should be questioned

Did he provide ID when asked?

Yes, he did.

Professor Gates did everything he needed to do. The cop then refused to give his name and badge number, something he was legally obligated to do. That's why Gates followed him out.

For the record, I'm white. I do think he overreacted, but I also think that doesn't matter. The cop should have provided his name and badge number and left the premises ASAP. The cop did neither.

[omega minimo]

62. Even some whites don't accept the set up of your poll or want to participate in this.