" No insurance company will be allowed to deny you coverage for a pre-existing condition"

[SoCalDem]

um-kay..

BUT what if they do not DENY you, but instead "offer" it at a cost you cannot afford to pay? So you go to wherever you have to go, to complain & get resolution, and someone there says.."your income is too high to qualify for our low-income assistance program"?

Then what?

Or when someone in charge says, you "should" be able to afford it, but your house payment is too high, so sell your house & move to someplace cheaper, and THEN you "can" afford it..

BUT
you're upside-down on your house and barely holding onto it.. Do you "walk", declare bankruptcy, and then buy health insurance?

People are uninsured for a REASON.. What will the "allowed" expenses be, for people asking for low-cost policies?

A person making a decent income, but who has high cost commuting, high cost housing, some child support payments, debts to credit card companies, on paper "seems" to be able to "afford" coverage, but in actuality may not be.

What about the low income person who has several sketchy jobs, lives here and there (with friends/family), but spends their money on cell phones, car payments & entertainment? (we ALL know these folks..some may be in our own families)

A helter-skelter approach will surely fail, because every case will need to be weighed on its own merits, and be reviewed again and again. This will require additional people to actually DO this work.

And the other 800 lb gorilla in the room is this.. Employers WILL drop their "plans". Any employer who does the math, will probably soon realize that it's probably going to be cheaper and easier to just pay the fine (or whatever they end up calling it) and wash his hands of the entire thing. They will also not be giving the money they USED to pay to the employee, because they will say it's to offset the penalty, so all those raises that were eaten up by "increases in medical coverage premiums) will just stay with the boss, and now the employees will be on their own, in the open "marketplace"..

The devil is always in the details, and any plan that comes from congress will be loaded up with devils..

[BlooInBloo]

1. That's where the competition of a public plan is supposed to come in.

[ejpoeta]

12. yes, but we don't know what any 'public plan' will look like. so all i hear

is that I will be forced to buy insurance, but have only the current system to look at.... It would be different if the public plan were there already and we could see what it was and how much it would cost to buy and THEN talk about mandates. I don't like the mandates idea, not one bit..... not because I don't think everyone needs to be buying into the system, but because of what the system is they will be forced to buy into. IT scares me to think of being penalized if I don't have insurance.... Yes, we have insurance right now. Bob has a job, and we went with CIGNA because they raised the price so much of Independent health and we put the kids on child health plus. and we were lucky that we qualified for that without having to have the girls without insurance for six months. but not everyone has that 'luck'. i know my sister and brother in law make too much, even though my sister is currently on unemployment. they probably make too much just with my brother in law's pay.

[aquart]

2. It sucks. And if they expect me to thank them for it?

They're going to be waiting a LONG time.

[babylonsister]

3. Please check this out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6068091

Yea, it's a week old. Sounds good though.

[DarthDem]

6. That Was A Good Thread

I'll forgive you its self-laudatory resurrection! ;-) Seriously, I'm just kidding - - that really was a good thread, seriously. I wish more of the doom and gloomers had read it.

[bvar22]

16. Some OTHER things you NEED to KNOW about the House Bill (HR 3200).

According to the CBO which scored HR 3200 last week,

*ONLY 10 Million Americans will be covered by the Public Plan by 2019.
Big Insurance should be very happy.
With the MANDATE for ALL Americans to purchase Health Insurance, and only 10 Million in the Public Plan after 10 years, they will be raking in the money.


If the Public Plan only enrolls 3% of Americans, will they have any negotiating power to drive down Health Care Costs?

"Most importantly, the CBO coverage tables undermine the conservative claim that a public option would eliminate private insurance and erode employer-sponsored coverage. The House bill actually increases the number of people who receive coverage through their employer by 2 million (in 2019) and shifts most of the uninsured into private coverage. By 2019, 30 million individuals would also purchase coverage from the Exchange, but only 9-10 million Americans would enroll in the public option, the rest would enroll in private coverage."

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/07/14/house-bill-comes-in-at-1-trillion-undermines-gop-talking-points/

*Health Insurance will be mandated for all Americans, but Providers will be able to refuse Public Plan Participants.

Provider participation is voluntary – Medicare providers are presumed to be participating unless they opt out."

*The Public Option "should" be about 10% cheaper than Private Insurance.
I guess that is something, but a Publicly Owned Government Administered Plan that is open to ALL Americans could cut costs by at least 25%. (Difference between Medicare and Private Insurance administration).



*Many that are receiving Employer Based Insurance will be locked out of the "Exchange" and forced to keep their more expensive insurance.

"Under the main health bills being debated in Congress, many people with job-based insurance could find it difficult to impossible to switch to health plans on a new insurance exchange, even if the plans there were cheaper or offered better coverage. The restrictions extend to any government-run plan, which would be offered on the exchange.

<snip>

But critics argue that the rules run counter to suggestions from health care reform advocates that an overhaul could provide people with a broader choice of insurance options. The rules, they say, could be especially unfair to some lower-income workers who are enrolled in costly job-based insurance. Also, they argue, the restrictions would hurt the proposed public plan by limiting enrollment."

http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/healthquest/for-many-workers-insurance-choices-may-be-limited-after-health-care-overhaul

There are many other details that need to be examined, but the one MOST glaring is the prediction that ONLY 10 Million will be enrolled in the Public Option by 2019. That is minuscule compared to what America is demanding.

Do you believe that the 72% of Americans who are calling for a "Public Option" will be satisfied with this?

[SoCalDem]

18. We "doom & gloomers" have been posting warnings since about 2002 on MANY things

that have, sadly, come to pass, just as we predicted, so you'll have to cut us a little slack.. We've been to this rodeo many times before and we kind of know the routine by now..:(

[DarthDem]

36. I Hear Ya

We have a new president. Believe me, if you read my posts, you know that I think Harry Reid is a spineless worm. But Obama - - isn't. Keep the faith. :-)

[DarthDem]

4. Smart People Are Working On This

. . . and not everyone is in the insurance industry's pocket. You may also be forgetting something else - - what passes this year doesn't have to be the final word. It can always be toughened later. Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping for a very good bill . . . but even a bad one will be better than what we have now, and can be amended down the road now that reformers have their foot in the door. So cheer up, maybe. :D

[bvar22]

15. "Fixing it later" is something The Democrats are not very good at.

There is a long list of Bills that were "going to be fixed later" that never got fixed.
"The Patriot Act" is only one, but a great example.
There was a LONG line of Democrats parading before the TV cameras repeating the same litany.
"Yes. I voted FOR it, but we will go back and "Fix It Later", so its All Good."

3 BIG Lies told by Elected Representatives
You KNOW they are lying when they say:

*"We put a Sunset Provision on it", (so it will only be bad for a little while)

*"We put in protections for taxpayers", (but they did not put in any way to enforce them)

*"We will go back and fix it later." (An open admission of a Bad Bill. Later NEVER comes.)

[DarthDem]

34. I Understand Your Pessimism

. . . but we have arguably the best-suited president to pass this kind of social reform since LBJ. So I'm willing to give him a little more time. :-)

Incidentally, sunset provisions aren't necessarily or even usually a lie. Do you think the B**h tax cuts will be reenacted, for example?

[cbdo2007]

21. Thanks for this post...more of these people need patience.

It isn't easy for the designers of these plans to just say, "Ok, all pre-existing conditions always covered". It's still got to be paid for by somebody, and even the definition of "pre-existing condition" needs to be carefully crafted.

I'm of the opinion that we need way more details about the "public option" before they pass it, cause when I sit down and look at it there are too many unanswered questions still. At the same time though, many of these issues can't be figured out immediately, and will take many, many people many, many hours to get the wording and the plan right.

Just have some patience people. Anyone who thought Obama was going to solve all of our problems overnight is as delusional as the Repubes who think he won't solve them at all. With Obama we are on the right track with a lot of great things, just give him time.

[Sebastian Doyle]

24. That's what Bill Clinton told us about NAFTA

And they never fixed that piece of shit either.

[SoCalDem]

25. The problem with "fixing" things is this

sometimes they become UN-fixable.

When the manufacturing jobs are GONE, and the plants stripped bare, the jobs will NOT be back..ever.. That;s unfixable. and the people displaced from their jobs, are damaged beyond repair.

[DarthDem]

35. ?

Bill Clinton reveled in NAFTA. I don't remember him saying they would go abck and fix it. How the hell do you fix a bad treaty, anyway? Renegotiate it, I guess. Anyway, you may be right, but I don't remember that at all, and the analogy is imperfect anyway.

[FrenchieCat]

5. I don't think that President Obama would sign some stupid ass shit like that.....

where somehow, you get priced out of the market for a pre-existing condition.

I mean...come on! Obama's mother was dying of cancer while filling out Insurance forms,
because they were trying to deny her claim.

So now you want to speculate that he might allow pricing sick people out of insurance plans?

That's darkly cynical.

[SoCalDem]

8. It's hard to not be cynical, but I am trying.. We have great insurance. (now)

but it will probably not always be that way.. I only have 5 years to go until medicare, but our kids are vulnerable to a sketchy system.. I worry about them..


I just want what Canada has.. I must be evil:)

[FrenchieCat]

9. I pay through the nose!

I'd like a break! The kind of money that I have to come with is ridiculous.
I'm self employed.
I'll take Obama's plan over what is in place now, anyday!

[SoCalDem]

10. We had COBRA for a while in 1996.. paid $860 a month for 3 of us

That was the biggest rip off ever, but our son played club soccer & drove, so we had to pay it..or risk everything.. Luckily my husband changed jobs & now e have a union plan that;s terrific, but others are not so lucky, and I am a "sharer" by nature:)

[backscatter712]

7. HR 3200 has mandatory community rating and guaranteed issue.

In other words, insurers will be required to take anyone who can write the premium checks, and the only factors that can affect the premium amounts is age (which sucks, but they limit how much they can change the premium), number of family members, and location. Preexisting conditions cannot be considered when determining premium amounts, assuming HR3200 became law.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

11. Remember all the whining about "sanctity of contract"

when the Congress was gonna bail out the banks??

Well, the insurance companies don't honor their contracts.

The customers get screwed. The legal term for this is "detrimental reliance".

Not funny at all.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. K&R

[yodoobo]

14. Those are Republican talking points

Costs will drop because more people will be in the plan to spread the costs around.

More employers will fund employer provided plans as well..because the costs will be much lower than in the past.

Besides, even if there are some minor flaws, its far more important to get this passed now, and then begin fine tuning.

[bvar22]

17. It is hard to "fine tune" a piece of junk,

and HR 3200 IS a piece of junk..

It should be named the "Health Insurance Industry Profit Protection Bill".

Are you aware that (according to the CBO) LESS than 10 Million will be enrolled in the Public Option by 2019? That is not near enough to "drive down the cost of Health Care" and "Keep the Insurance Corporations Honest". They will be able to laugh at it all the way to the bank.

Are you aware that Providers can refuse to accept the Public Option?

Are you aware that MOST Americans who receive their Health Insurance through their employer will be Locked Out of the Public Option even if it is cheaper and has better benefits?

[yodoobo]

19. Thats all we can do..

Obama has this under control I assure you.

See here's the thing. If this fails, its over. done. No second chances.

If this fails we won't get another shot at healthcare reform for another 10 or 20 years.

Last time it failed it took 13 years before we had another chance. How long will it take for a 3rd chance?

Get this passed. Get it passed fast and quickly. Then make changes.

Its ugly, but its the way things work.

The only way we can lose, would be if we fight this plan, just as the right is doing right now.

[bvar22]

27. I don't agree.

A BAD reform bill could postpone REAL reform for a generation, and lock us in to a system that funnels $Billions of taxpayer dollars into the pockets of one of the richest Industries (Denying Health Care to Americans) the World has ever seen.

SEE:Medicare Part D for an example.
This was also sold to the American People as "Reform".

[SoCalDem]

29. and it gives "cover" to those who say. "see it FAILED"

and then shrink from ever "trying THAT again"..:rr:

[bvar22]

32. We simply MUST get this RIGHT.

A "STRONG" Public Option open to ALL Americans is absolutely essential.
The "Public Option" specified in HR3200 is less than "weak", enrolling less than 10 Million Americans by 2019 (as per the CBO).

[CTyankee]

26. Does the bill lock them out even if they leave or are laid off by the company they work for? nt

[SoCalDem]

31. Well, if they lost it, they would probably qualify to try and qualify for the public plan

but if it's income based, they might be forced into cobra..who knows..
The whole think is starting to look like applying patches on a patchwork quilt.:(

[CTyankee]

33. We we really don't know at this point...nt

[Uncle Joe]

20. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, SoCalDem.:thumbsup:

[Lars39]

22. Or you've got a chronic condition, already gone bankrupt once,

and have a slew of medical bills piling up again. Yet some pencil-pusher says you can afford health insurance. Riiight. Are they going to take into account existing medical bills? 'Cause it won't do a bit of good if they don't.

[SoCalDem]

23. That's the thing, no one will "know" for sure

because it will all have to be on a case by case basis, and people will be subject to an intermediary..

It's all about the MONEY..not the health care..

we need health care..not health insurance

insurance is the problem..not the solution

[Lars39]

28. Yes. As long as "Patient Portient" can be the unknown X, we're screwn.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

30. A huge concern of mine ---

I have one of those "preexisting conditions" that has kept me from private health insurance. I fear getting offers of coverage that are simply too expensive for me, including any public option. :(

The Devil is ALWAYS in the details!

[spin]

37. K&R (n/t)

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. DU'ers are hopeless.

The actual bill. The synopsis of the bill. Reporting on the bill. Analysis of the bill.

It's all been posted here, ad nauseum, yet we cling to our myths.

There's this really perplexing mix; complete entitlement; ("health care is a human right! It should be free, and come with complementary mints!") combined with complete cynicism; ("I know what the bill says, but that's just words. Besides, it will take four years to implement! I want this horrible, no-good thing that will kill our grandmothers and enslave our children right now!)

You don't understand the bill. Read up, then comment... unless you want to fit in.

[Naturyl]

39. "Complete entitlement?" Yeah, absolutely.

"Health care is a human right! It should be free.."

Yep, exactly. I'll take that characterization and own it.

"...and come with complementary mints!"

Thanks for repeating a snide right-wing talking point.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. Good luck with that.

I think it's kind of a tragedy that people die while you wait for your pony, but whatever.

[Naturyl]

42. I think it's kind of a tragedy...

That people die while you refuse to to demand real health care rather than half-ass band-aid solutions, but whatever.

Nice job repeating the right-wing "pony" slur, though.

[Mimosa]

40. Insurance exec had told me their lobby would win

During 1992 or 1993 (when the Clinton admin was working on healthcare) I was conversing with a young insurance exec about universal health coverage. I wanted it, of course. He laughingly told me universal single payer will NEVER happen in America, that the insurance lobby owned Congress. True in 1993, true now, I guess.

Is single payer universal access dead?

[SoCalDem]

43. Single payer and access to it is "available"

as long as YOU will be the "single-payer".

The problem with ever getting it here (like in other countries) is the in order for it to work, it would require a TOTAL change..not just some tinkering at the edges, like we always do.

There would have to be an elimination of Insurance companies (except for the most rudimentary of "supplemental" coverage).

We would HAVE to have an ID card for everyone, proving their entitlement (good luck with that one)

It would have to mean the elimination of VA & Medicaid
, and rolling us all into Medicare..(VA should still operate re-hab & specialty facilities for war-wounded)

It would mean the hospitals & pharma should operate as non-profits

It would mean that we ALL would "pay" through a process of sliding-scale taxation, based on our ability to pay..


Single payer won;t "work" without those things happening...and as long as there are paranoid americans & republicans, none of this will happen.