Is there a change in police training that is contributing to these crazy cases?

[CreekDog]

i hear so many instances where officers end up arresting people that it makes no sense to arrest. or use the taser on people where police might be unhappy with a person's behavior but it makes no sense to tase a person.

it seems as if what defines these cases is that if one doesn't totally respect the authority, they are getting brought in --no matter what the circumstance.

obviously this is not all police officers, who probably want to crawl under their chairs when they read stuff like this. perhaps it's just that the profession attracts more than its share of people really not suited to the job --those that crave power to use against those weaker than themselves.

but something does seem to be up.

what kind of changes in police training might account for this --if any? :shrug:

[Lerkfish]

1. The change occurred with the Patriot Act with the help of the slippery slope.

and the adage "give them an inch and they take a mile".

and the quote:

"When you sacrifice your freedom for security you lose both"


Once it became allowable to abridge civil rights in SOME cases, it became easier to get sloppy and feel like ALL cases could be included, with enough persuasive argument.


The problem is no the police training, but the govt's permission.

[Buzz Clik]

4. The Patriot Act? Don't tell that to Rodney King.

[Lerkfish]

7. good point. I guess what I"m saying is the patriot act made it EASIER for these abuses to occur

but your'e right.

[Echo In Light]

27. Yes, and that's inferred in your wording of "slippery slope." P.A. gave the green light to fascists

...from all walks of institutional authority.

[backscatter712]

39. Yep. 9/11 and the Bushies turned the volume up six notches, but this trend's been going for decades

Probably since the 70's when Nixon declared his War On Drugs... The militarization of police had begun.

Since then, the cops have been afforded more powers, more toys, more training. We saw the advent of SWAT teams, we saw cops carrying more weapons, and they started relying less on deescalation and communication techniques, and started treating use of force as the first resort, not last resort.

[Echo In Light]

55. Exactly...lending the "inside job" angle even greater motive than the obviou$ MIC profits

[joeybee12]

63. Dont' tell it to that immigrant in New York who got 41 bullets in him...

...was it 41 or even 61? I think 41.

[merh]

37. The change relates to the mindset of the Bush administration and 9/11

The Bush admin did away with Community Policing grants and they focused the LEO grants that were available to the homeland security purposes. It became the "Us against Them" environment. Police Departments and local govs could get grants if they trained in the use of weapons or terrorist responses. The idea of relating to the community and working within the community was abandoned because Community Policing was the Clinton Admin big success.

[LaurenG]

2. I don't know about that. In fact I think the training is probably better.

I was married to a police officer for nearly 20 years and this stuff went on all the time. The difference is - now people have ways to catch incidents on digital cameras and cell phones. In the "olden" days there was only your word against theirs and a supervisor/judge would have to side with the officer against a "perp" when there was no evidence to submit to the contrary.

[CreekDog]

6. that occured to me too

but i'm not convinced yet that is the only explanation.

[Buzz Clik]

3. We hear nothing of the hundreds of thousands of arrests that are done routinely.

We only hear about the ones that go really wrong.

Cops are brutal by nature (thank god), and they are trained to keep their brutality reined in. We want them to know when to cut it loose because bad guys can be violent and deadly. Sometimes, certain cops screw up, and we hear about it.

[Lerkfish]

9. brutal by nature cops are why you thank god?

hmmm.... er... ok.

[Buzz Clik]

13. Oh, brother. Have you ever known a career cop?

Have you ever been right there when the shit hits the fan?

My brother-in-law is a career cop. I was with him and my sister one day (he was off duty). We observed a completely drunken man attempting to unlock his car to drive away. My brother-in-law calmly and kindly walked up to the man and suggested that the man not drive home; he'd call him a cab, and he could pick up his car later. The drunk immediately flew into a violent rage. He punched the cop in the face and continued his attack. My brother-in-law was surprised but not shaken. He had the drunk on his face and in cuffs in less than ten seconds. He overcame the drunk with a forearm to the face while sweeping his legs out from under him. His being able to cuff him required a vicious arm lock as he removed the cuffs from his belt.

Controlled brutality. I have no doubt that he faces similar situations day in and day out.

[blueamy66]

20. This might not be a popular response, but

Why didn't your BIL call for a cruiser and some uniformed cops? I would hazard a guess that the situation would have turned out differently. How was the "drunk guy" to know who or what your BIL was? And is it protocol for off duty cops to carry handcuffs? Or is he a detective or higher grade?

Hey, I'm all for keeping drunks offa the road, but your story rubs me the wrong way.

No disrepect intended...just curious I guess.

[Buzz Clik]

30. You've drifted off point, but I'll answer the question.

This was before the days of cellphones. By the time he would have found a pay phone and called in, the guy would have been gone.

My BIL made detective eventually, but he was still just a cop at the time. He always carried his firearm and cuffs.

Considering the huge percentage of traffic deaths involving drinking, he actions were a civic duty.

[blueamy66]

36. How did I drift off point?

Also, I don't understand why an off duty patrol officer needs to carry handcuffs.

[Buzz Clik]

41. This gets back to my original point.

People who have known cops very well understand them in a different light than those whose only contact is when they get a ticket or talk to them on the phone about fund raising.

[Kid Dynamite]

25. Man even the courts won't tolerate your pro Law Enforcement bias

they won't even take you for jury duty Mr My-BIL-Is-A-Cop

[Buzz Clik]

34. No kidding. I've been called for jury duty 5 times, and never got a second look.

It saves a lot of time, but I wish I could somehow tell them ahead of time.

However, I would not characterize myself as having a law enforcement bias. A lot of cops come unhinged at the wrong time and end up beating the crap out of or killing someone. At the same, I don't have the bias that assumes that all cops are potential killers and took the job only to allow them to fulfill their dream of legally bullying people.

[Kid Dynamite]

35. Its a systemic bias

not about personalities or particular thugs. You support the violent role that LE plays in our society..you want to put a gentrified gloss on it maybe, but even then your slip keeps showing.

[Buzz Clik]

44. Yeah, right. I suppose you want a police department of consensus builders.

Even rent-a-cops and low level security officers are expected to know how to be lethally violent when the situation calls for it.

[Kid Dynamite]

47. Its not one incident or even many incidents

its a question of the role of Law Enforcement in society. And it is by definition "Law" "Enforcement". And the laws are perfectly "neutral" -- they apply equally to the CEO and the beggar. Why, if a cop caught some CEO loitering on the corner he'd nail him for vagrancy right off. And if a hobo was involved in some fraudulent embezzlement scheme he'd be sentenced just as harshly as any other corporate criminal. Of that I have no doubt.

Its no trivial thing that you want to justify why they have to be killing machines. And they predominantly kill only minorities and the poor (with a significant overlap of course)

How does it add up to you?

[Buzz Clik]

56. "Its no trivial thing that you want to justify why they have to be killing machines." Bullshit.

I never suggested that any cop was a killing machine. Not once. Nor did I imply that they are quick to kill or quick to violence.

Your despise for the police has impeded your ability to discuss this rationally.

[Kid Dynamite]

57. I must have misconstrued the phrase "lethal violence"

and also the five or so other times you intimated the same in a series of three or four posts then.

How would you know if I can discuss the matter rationally when you have not initiated any rational conversation? You've staked out a pro-LE, pro-violence position come hell or high water before anything was said.

I understand that is your position and am only trying to help you articulate your position

[Lerkfish]

49. ironically, MY brother in law is ALSO a cop

and I wouldn't let him babysit my kid (which is a completely side issue, unrelated to his profession), but since I have a brother in law cop, does that mean I'm automatically correct, too, just like you?

And I remember my BIL cop telling me a story where they had a standoff with a guy in his own house holding a gun to his own head, and because it was getting to be suppertime, the cops were trying to get him to shoot himself so they could go home.

so.... for every story one way there's a story the other way. But "brutal by nature" is not the personality I want in people that server and protect. If you do, that's your choice.

[zipplewrath]

5. Most likely

My guess would be more of a case of changing demographic of police recruits. The basic problem of police generated conflict has been around since... well forever. The most extreme case is probably the '68 Dem convention that was later described pretty much as a "police riot". When the World Cup was here they sent the local police to "charm school" to try to teach them some tolerance for the World Cup fans that would be coming to town. They were concerned that the police would instigate a conflict that would ballon into a riot. If there has been any particular "up tick" in this problem my guess would be that it can be traced back to our volunteer military. You have alot of young folks looking to fund their college educations through military service. One area they go into is the military police because it can translate to jobs outside of the military. The end result is that they get military based training (very authortarian) virtually at the beginning of their careers. It can take a long time to change initial attitudes like that.

[bobburgster]

8. You bring up a good topic for discussion.

It certainly seems to me that there has been an increase of this type of behavior. My simplistic view is that these behaviors are the product of 8 years of Bush/Cheney "screw you, we're in power" approach to governing our country. If I recall correctly, the same uptick in police inappropriate behaviors occurred during Reagan's presidency.

[liberal N proud]

Maybe they all want to get on TV's Most Outrageous Police videos

There is some really bizzar stuff on them.


Really I don't have a clue!

[peace13]

10. In 2003 we had an incident with the police in our our small village.

It ended with my son and his friend receiving an apology from the the Chief, who told us then and there that police officers were being trained differently and that we should not submit to voluntary searches. It was very strange. I agree that the 'Patriot' Act is responsible. I hope we get a some response from the police officers here.

[CreekDog]

12. I submitted to a voluntary search of my car back in 1990 in a Utah small town

I was living in Provo, and i was in the neighboring town, Spanish Fork when i had to turn around but thinking it was a small town thought it be wiser to turn around in a parking lot, so i did. then a cop pulled me over and asked to open my trunk which i did (i didn't know and i was afraid to argue).

when he saw the bags of sand in my trunk he started apologizing saying he thought i might have robbed that church (whose parking lot i turned around in).

my friends up in Provo, not exactly Paris, said that's the way cops in Spanish Fork are, and that i had California plates meant i was going to get a harsher version of it.

[peace13]

17. It was nice that he apologized.

It made the outcome entirely different. I think that is the problem with the Gates issue. If they would have apologized and not arrested him I doubt that we would have heard about this story.

[slampoet]

66. I would add that the cops are continuing the story by STILL not backing down.

Even now that almost all of Harvard and the president of the Untied States are against them.

If you even needed proof that these cops have an attitude problem, here it is.

[tularetom]

11. They have forgotten that they are basically the cheap hired help

And we've been pretty wimpy about letting them know that.

There needs to be better psychological screening to cull out the cowards and bullies who just want to shove people around.

[conscious evolution]

18. better psychological screening

The psych screening is one of the reasons we have the cops we have.Unfortunately,imo,the screenings are being used to pick out the brutes instead of the good guys.Can't be having cops with empathy,compassion and common sense,you know.They would be more likely to say no to their corporate overlords.

[NashVegas]

32. Wow. Okay.

Let's see .... you take a well-educated (say, 4 year degree), self-confident, self-respecting individual for a 40-60k income, and think they're going to put up with your superior bullshit?

[blueamy66]

38. I'd be curious to know the stats on patrol officers who have

received 4 year degrees.

Anybody?

[backscatter712]

42. Depends on the locality.

Some police departments hire the professionals with criminal justice degrees.

Other departments have corrupt chiefs that hire their drinking buddies.

[blueamy66]

43. true

I'd guess that there are alot more patrol cops with 2 year degrees.

[NashVegas]

51. To Advance, You've Got To

Most of the lower ranks I've had experience don't strike me as grads.

[tularetom]

46. They damn well better put up with my "superior bullshit" and everybody else's too

Our taxes pay their salaries. They work for us and it would serve them well to ponder this relationship.

I was a department head in a local government agency for over 25 years. I was well aware of where I stood on the employer-employee food chain. A lot of my contemporaries resented my contention that we were indeed the cheap hired help.

And I was a well educated (4 year degree) self confident, self respecting individual myself. And when I started in the position I was earning a lot less than 40-60k.

[NashVegas]

48. Okay ... So ...

Everyone you interacted with treated you like something that gets scraped off your shoes, so you think it's okay to pass it down?

[tularetom]

52. What part of the phrase "civil servant" do you not understand?

These people work for you and you should want them to understand that. Many of them don't.

But if you want to pay some chumps to push you around, don't let me stop ya. Personally, I'd prefer some service from my civil servants.

[NashVegas]

53. I'll Take That As a "Yes"

[Sinistrous]

14. The fact that courts and juries have let police get away with

abuse, even murder, is a contributing factor.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[conscious evolution]

19. FYI. Alias alert.

I came across another blackwater alias- "US Training Center"

[formercia]

22. US Training Center aka Blackwater

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training_testimonials.html

[TZ]

33. umm thats not a reputable site.

Rense is a conspiracy theory/ RACIST site. I wouldn't believe anything they said.

[formercia]

40. Neither is this one

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/contact_us.html

[TZ]

45. Would you trust what the KKK has to say about politics?

Because thats what you are doing. As a Jew I find it offensive that people think anyone who pushes the Mel Gibson theory of Jews controlling the world has anything reputable and truthful to say.
I actually think Blackwater is more honest than those racist bastards at rense.

[formercia]

50. Go complain to Rense.

I would prefer staying on-topic.

[billyoc]

16. The hypervigilance that comes with militarization might lead to an increase in these incidents.

[Kid Dynamite]

21. The Tucson police force

has killed more "suspects" in the last 10 years than they have lost officers in their entire history since the 1890s.

It is almost criminal to pose the question as you do. You think that police violence, misuse of authority, and power abuse are something *new*??

How oblivious do you have to be to even ask this question? Last I read, the United States has 40% of the world's prison population. Now you either have to believe America is basically a penal colony or you have to conclude that the United States is holding millions of political prisoners..far more than, say, Cuba..

[slampoet]

67. More cops kill themselves with their own weapon than die in the line of duty.

Yet we still value the testimony and life of cops more than any other humans even though the cops themselves don't value their own lives.

Remember too, this is more cops killing themselves even AFTER psychological screening and available treatment.

[sinkingfeeling]

23. The changes started in the 1960's with Nixon's attitude. We've witnessed the growth of a

pseudo police state along with public worship of anything military. We adopted a 'Might makes Right' attitude within these borders. The Pentagon and law enforcement across the nation want to keep the populace in fear.

[old mark]

24. Many states have had testing for potential police officers that

eliminate candidates who are too intelligent - I swear this is true. They want cops slightly above average, but not too smart, and I think they have been kind of leaning toward the REALLY not too smart recently.

I read about this several years ago, relating to Massachusetts, but it made clear that this was a pretty common requirement.

mark

[CreekDog]

62. this is just a joke but remember Homer Simpson said:

"No, no, the Army said I was too dumb, the police said I was too fat." :rofl: :hide:

[EmeraldCityGrl]

26. It's due to the militarization of our police

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INdcaeeb3ws

[izzybeans]

54. +1

[NashVegas]

28. Dumbing Down, Hardening Up, of the Working Class

Combined with the fact that being a cop is a lot more dangerous than it used to be.

I've had three occasions to interact with police in the last 3 years (traffic tickets). The youngest was under 30 and by FAR had the most "you do not want to fuck around with me" attitude. His elder peers were far more relaxed.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. It's the utter failure of police training

The police training regime in this country is a disgrace and a massive failure.

[TZ]

31. I think some of the training schools have gotten less strict

about whom they will accept. In DC, I know this was the case for awhile, that they loosened standards because they needed the man power so badly.

[TheKentuckian]

58. The training is probably better than it has ever been, on the whole.

The problem has been around a hundred years at least. Cops see themselves as separate and above the populace, rather than as citizens trusted with keeping the peace.

[BlooInBloo]

59. Nah. Just the usual tolerance of racism by white folks.

[Flaneur]

60. What ever happened to Officer Friendly?

Is that him behind the armor and the balaclava and the heavy weaponry on the fucking SWAT tank?

[KansDem]

61. You mean the "when the suspect surrenders and lies face down with arms outstretched...

...you kick him in the head as hard as you can"-type of police training?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-ZLV_sB3Rc
That kind of "police training?"

I dunno...

[Lars39]

64. It goes from the top on down:

Look at the top guy's credentials: http://www.cambridgema.gov/CPD/About/Commisioner.cfm

[lexanman]

65. Ever watch Serpico?