Is American law enforcement fundamentally racist?

[BurtWorm]

[BlooInBloo]

1. Bah. I only clicked this thread to see the word "tumultuous".

:P

[BurtWorm]

4. Thank you for being the first to use that word in this thread.

:applause:

[BlooInBloo]

12. Be prepared for very disappointing poll results.

It's just the way it is. :(

[Critters2]

2. As long as our law enforcement system is based on violence,

and it is, it will always be oppressive of those with little power. Which makes it inherently racist.

[Echo In Light]

3. And Classist

To protect and serve the wealthy.

[catbyte]

18. Absolutely!

My dad was a police officer in a small resort town in northern Michigan for several years. He routinely saw other officers pull over rich kids then drive them home. He saw the same officers pull over, say, a poor Native American kid, and immediately throw him up against the car, cuff him, and take him to jail. My dad got so sick of that that he'd arrest the rich kids and drive the poor kids home. My dad got an unbelievable amount of shit for doing that, but he said that he hadn't fought in WWII in order to "give the rich, white boys a free ride." God, I miss my dad...

:cry:

Diane

Anishnabe and Proud

FREE LEONARD PELTIER

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

5. Fundamentally Racist? No... Universally Hostile and Alienating? Yes!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. +1

White, black, brown, yellow, it doesn't matter. However if you are blue, things are always easier

[Donnachaidh]

6. I'm just stunned at such a blanket statement

I've lived in several large cities, and also some small towns. In my own personal experience, I've seen more racism in the larger cities. I have no answers as to why that happens.

I've known some really good cops in NY, and some real animals in Los Angeles and where I live now. But I don't think it helps matters to automatically assume because someone is a cop that they are racist. That's just reverse bigotry, and totally unfair to the ones who really aren't.

[BurtWorm]

7. The statement you are objecting to is...what?

[Donnachaidh]

13. all law enforcement are racist.

It's a terrible point to start a poll from. That's my opinion, ymmv... :shrug:

[BurtWorm]

23. The question is *is* law enforcement racist: is the system racist.

It's not, are cops racist. That's a different question. And I'm asking whether people think it is because I think it's an important question. I agree that the personal question about cops is not all that interesting.

[BlooInBloo]

15. White folks commonly object when asked to call other white folks racist....

We really, REALLY don't like doing that. Really. It causes all sorts of tumult, in fact.

[booley]

25. I have no problem with it

I have no problem calling white folks racist.. when a white folk says or does something racist.

I have no problem calling a black or hispanic folk racist.. when they do something racist.

I have no problem calling an institution racist... again when it does or says something that is racist.

Hopefully it's clear where I am going with this.

Racism should be called out. But people and things are not racist by default.

[xultar]

8. That is just like asking are all Black folk fundamentally homophobic.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. ... and then dividing the "no" answers between three choices. n/t

[BurtWorm]

16. No, I don't think so.

I'm asking do people think there's something fundamentally racist about the law enforcement system. I'm not asking if people think cops are fundamentally racist. The third choice should clue you into that distinction.

I don't know the answer myself. I wonder why things are the way they are if there isn't something fundamentally racist with the system, if there isn't some bias in the system that makes it vastly more likely that a black man will be stopped and arrested than a white man. A bias in the system would make more sense than that there's a disproportionate number of racists hired to be cops. I think the system might even produce racist cops. I hope it's the system, anyway, because if so, there might be a way to fix it.

[xultar]

20. Well of course the law is for everyone so the law system isn't. But maybe some cops are but it

doesn't make the system racist.

[BurtWorm]

24. Then how did we get to the point we're at?

Why are a quarter of black men arrested? Are a quarter of black men criminal? Are too many cops too eager to arrest people because they're black? Or is something fundamentally fucked up with the way law enforcement works in African-American communities?

[xultar]

29. I think there are racist cops amongst the mostly good. I also think the black community

also shares some of the blame. I also think the media has made contributions to this situation and the white community has done dirty deeds as well.

We all fucked it up. The situation won't be fixed until we all come together and fix that shit. Simple.

[EFerrari]

27. Our prisons contain a disproportionate number of blacks and Latinos.

The proof is in the results.

[xultar]

36. That doesn't make Law Enforcement the blame...there I see poverty...or class

as the blame.

Who's got the money to fight that shit within the legal system.

A cop who is racist will prolly bust more Latinos, Blacks, and Asians for that matter. Even though there may not be that many racist cops the few that are are highly motivated...which increases the arrest number. Couple that with the people accused not veing able to afford adequate legal counsel and...there you go more convictions.

I do however see where the media in building stereotypes plays a role...
I see where we as black folk play into the stereotype which plays a role,
I see where poverty plays a role, lack of adequate health and mental health care
I see where education plays a role,
I see where communities play a role,
I see where lack of active fathers and mothers play a role,
I see where economics plays a role,

This shit is deep and it isn't just LAW ENFORCEMENT. If you try to make it about just that one thing you are selling black folk short and you aren't solving the problem.

[EFerrari]

45. This shit is deep and it isn't only about law enforcement.

With respect to the criminal justice system, tt's also about disproportionate prosecution and sentencing. We pretty much have two different systems.

The elements you name all play a role, especial the economics. But you don't have to get your back up, xultar, because this is also about other people of color and I have a membership card.

[N7255Q]

38. Like at Shawshank. Everyone there is innocent.

...

[EFerrari]

46. I'm not talking about innocence, although the Innocence Project

has had no trouble turning up innocent people on death row. I'm talking about disproportionate impact. Like making the sentencing guidelines for crack much more onerous than for powder.

[TCJ70]

10. Law Enforcement as a concept, no. The practitioners...

...of that concept, can be. I don't think it's smart, however, to automatically assume a distrust of police.

[redqueen]

11. Doesn't an analysis of the way the law is enforced show that this is definitely true?

And not just law enforcement, but the justice system as well.

It's a generalization and there are exceptions of course... but are we talking about the individuals, or the results of their actions?

[ccharles000]

14. no

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Stops and arrests are ubiquitously, disproportionately biased against blacks.

So, yeah.

Fundamentally racist.

[VMI Dem]

19. Without question it is.

[booley]

22. Many seem to be missing the real issue

People are confusing being racist with being an authoritarian and those are two totally separate things. Not exclusive things but certainly not the same.

And the whole "you white people" thing that has cropped up is just aggravating as hell. IF someone made such generalizations, saying "all you black people", that would be unacceptable. Being the victim of prejudice does justify prejudiced statements in turn.

Here's the deal. I have absolutely no problem believing the cop abused his power and this is wrong and I am one of those "White people" that supposedly doesn't get it.

I do get it and I get it because cops have abused their power with me and my friends as well. Both White and Black cops. Racism can play into this but this is part of a much larger problem... Police and the state in general are demanding unquestioning obedience and they don't care what color you are, you will get punished if you don't give it.

Not all police and not everyone in government, mind you. But I have noticed even the good cops will turn a blind eye to abuses by their peers. Even good non-authoritarian, fair minded people will too often give an authority figure the benefit of the doubt regardless of the actions.

This phenomena isn't racism. It's simple human nature. (which last I heard covered you regardless of the color of your skin). It's a problem we all have within ourselves to at least some degree.

And no, I am not saying Racism isn't a problem. Just that it isn't the whole issue. We could have the equal numbers of every ethnicity in every police force and still have this sort of thing going on.

Here's the REAL issue: Gates did not break the law. Whether he was an asshole or just having a bad day or truly outraged is besides the point. While Gates being black may have played a part, what really got Gates in trouble from what I have read is he demanded the cop's badge number and name.

Asking for a cop's badge number getting that person in trouble should give every poster on DU a big friggin case of DEJA VUE because this happens a lot and not just to black people.

That's the real problem here. Another guy (who happened to be Black) got in trouble for doing something perfectly legal because he questioned someone in power and that person in power didn't like it. IF this had been a black cop questioning Gates, I am not sure it would have turned out any differently.

Maybe we should attack authoritarians rather then each other.

[EFerrari]

28. You're right about authoritarians but racial profiling is a very real issue.

I really didn't get it until I read about a study that showed black male drivers were stopped 8X as often as white men in Chicago.

8X.

[booley]

39. It is a problem but

I think it's more of a symptom.

Racists are almost always authoritarians but not al authoritarians are racists.

It's still a case of "we have power and you don't so you're S.O.L."

Without power, a racist is just an ill-informed idiot who hates you.

I just think many are missing the root of the problem.

[BurtWorm]

30. The question is, if Gates were white, would the outcome have been different?

Some guy on Washington Journal this morning was trying to make the case that the cop was just doing his job with the color blinders on. Then he said, as an example, that he too had had cops called on him when he tried to break into his own home after being locked out. It was an awkward situation he said trying to explain what he was doing. Of course the cops took his word for it when he said it was his own house and that was that. (Was that because he was white?) He went on to say that he could understand why the cops would--because of their training--have a more difficult time with a black man breaking into his own home in a "nice" neighborhood. But it's not because of racism, he said.

He didn't connect those dots leading to that conclusion for us, unfortunately. We were left to wade through the morass of his unfinished thoughts for ourselves to draw that conclusion.

[redqueen]

31. How tragically sad that he couldn't manage to connect those dots.

I wonder how many people heard that call... and how many of them might have had a light bulb moment from hearing such pretzel logic.

*sigh*

[booley]

40. Yes and no.

There may not have beena call to the police.

I mean, isnt' Gates an old man with a cane? Wasn't the other guy his limo driver who was wearing a suit?

Not the first people I would think of as BnE men.

BUT the stickling point to me is how Gates complained and demanded the cop's badge number and name.

I have seen white people do this and the effect was the same. Harsh treatment and arrest on trumped up charges.

As I said, the details should give a lot of us a case of Deja vue and not because of the race of the victim.

A lots of cops see someone holding them accountable a s a challenge to their authority and they will punish that person.

[BurtWorm]

41. With black men, it seems like a matter of course.

Cops seem to have a lower threshhold for the challenges of black men. How many white men have you heard of getting shot going for their wallets, for example?

[booley]

47. The two aren't exclusive

One can be racist and authoritarian.

BUT I say that cops will arrest white people who demand their badge number and try to hold them accountable because I have seen them do it.

I am not talking hypothetical here.

Which is part of my point.

Yeah there's racism against black people BUT the idea that White people are immune from this is an illusion.

[CBGLuthier]

26. remove two words and one letter and you have your answer

Is American law enforcement fundamentally racist?

Is America fundamentally racist?

That is the question. An honest answer to that question reveals all.

[rucky]

32. The entire criminal justice system is.

systematically and fundamentally racist - starting with who law enforcement decides to bring in.

The arrest rates and incarceration rates are both disproportionate - bringing a double whammy to the black community.

[daninthemoon]

33. Course not. Grossly higher proportions of non-white people go to

prison because they are just naturally more criminal. Nothing to do with profiling or long standing tradition of locking up brown folks for profit such as slavery and prison labor or private profit driven prisons.:sarcasm: :hide:

[hunter]

34. It sure the hell is in many places.

In the white suburban paradise I grew up in a white person could get away with all sorts of crap and the police would either ignore it, or let the person off with a warning. My mom was terrible, she'd try to sweet talk the police and if that didn't work she could get belligerent and the police would simply take names and back off.

Any brown person who might have dared behave as my mom did would be face-down on the ground with their hands cuffed behind their backs with three or four squad cars called for backup.

The police weren't even content with "Driving While Black or Brown" citations. They'd stop and question and harass black and hispanic people who were merely walking down the street minding their own business.

The .5% of the population in our city who were black or hispanic were alway very polite to the police, even when the police were being total assholes.

My home town is not so overtly racist anymore, and the population is a little more diverse, but it's still a place where people who are not white have to be extra careful to spend a few extra moments at stop signs and not be caught jaywalking.

I can easily imagine something like the Henry Louis Gates incident happening there.

The city I live in now is wild west compared to the city I grew up in. The police are understaffed and overworked, and they've got their own racist streak because the little gangsters they deal with every day are hispanic and that wears on them, but I don't get the same vibe from them that I still get from the police in the town where I grew up. I like to imagine our police here would have stopped by to help Dr. Gates kick in his own front door as a comic interlude to their daily danger and drudgery, but it's much more likely they wouldn't even have responded to the call in a timely fashion. If there's no shooting, stabbing, smashed cars blocking the road, or buildings on fire, then you have to take a number and wait your turn. If it's something like an ordinary break-in they might be by the next day or never. I've had "community service" officers call me back and tell me I can fill out a report on their police web page for minor things like car break-ins.

[doodadem]

35. Racist, and Sexist, here

In our little corner of Calif., law enforcement is not only racist, its also sexist. If you are what they think of as "a loud-mouthed bitch", you are going to be ill-treated. Now.....that phrase applies to any woman who knows her rights, and is not afraid to say so. I was actually "instructed" by one neighbor here some time ago, that the proper way to deal with the sheriff's dept. (which is all we can get here), is to keep your voice to not much more than a whisper, and your eyes on the ground.

That's not me. So I got beat up by one of the local Nazi's, who then totally fabricated his report.

[timeforpeace]

37. Anyone know what % of law enforcement is made of minorities?

[old mark]

42. I don't think the INSTITUTION is racist, but a lot of the members of that

institution are, and a lot more have problems knowing where their authority ends.


mark

[Cleita]

43. Yes, and what's weird is many non-white cops adopt the same attitude

of their white partners toward ethnic neighborhood residents.

[cayanne]

44. They sure are here in Idaho

In the small towns they are racist against all non whites and anyone appearing to be what they refer to as hippies or gays. They're somewhat are better in larger towns 9cities) where there is slightly more diversity. Also, in the larger towns (cities) many law enforcement came from other states, especially California. They are very conservative; like right wing of the republican party.

[merh]

48. Yes

And I vote that way as someone that studied criminal justice, worked with LEO (had a badge and gun and uniform and everything), trained LEO, assisted in the defense of LEO and assisted in the litigation against LEO and have relatives that are LEO.

Most agencies work very hard to overcome the racism but it is still much too prevalent.

[LostInAnomie]

49. More classist than racist.

Sadly, in a lot of people's minds race denotes class.