My Emails With A Republican End Poorly II

[ihavenobias]

Last time I shared . Most of you enjoyed it, a few of you offered some constructive criticism about my tone and two people were complete jerks who (ironically) told me I was a complete jerk (in much harsher terms). At any rate, I worked things out and tried to start a new conversation with a respectful, less personalized, non-snarky tone. I basically just sent and answered a few of her questions.

In light of her response below, would you even bother writing again after ONE last response? I think I'm making pragmatic arguments, i.e. I've researched different healthcare and tax systems and have concluded what seems to work best overall, etc. (my conclusion might be wrong, but I believe I support my claims pretty well, see first link to previous thread). Also, I grew up with an apolitical family and relatively apolitical friends. I know she grew up with a dad who's a huge Rush Limbaugh fan, and yes, in a nice upper middle class suburb in IL. Is it safe to assume that's why she's making very broad ideological arguments with scattered and un-sourced claims sprinkled in here and there? I think so, but I could be wrong.

This is kind of everywhere, not just from 1 thing you sent. Apology before hand.

1st Obama did not do his job last night, in fact he wasted every ones time and probably lost some support on healthcare, even MSNBC criticized him. Like you and I discussed yesterday, G and I pay 1500 or less per year on healthcare, yes we are healthy but I have had family/friends who have been sick or needed surgerys and they are not bankrupt or indebt b/c healthcare so no one I know is negatively affected. So to convince me to pay 7000 or even 4000 per year to pay for everyone, probably more since we need to add that 47 mil more people to that $2 tril that was divided up, you need to give me details, and he did not provide any.

Don't tax for the money you need, find a need for the money you get.
-Ronald Reagan
I know he is not your favorite person but this is a good quote

This is a way to live by, not just from a government stand.
Don't spend and then try to find a way to pay for it.
Take the money you earn and spend it wisely.
Maybe that is why there are so many "Rich, White, Republican Men" , they follow this belief. I know my family does and they save more than that "working person tax effect".

How many CEO's do you know, or anyone you know, know?
What rich corporate white men do you know that got that way off the backs of the poor?
Not all rich people are corrupt and bad.
I never met a CEO or any rich shady banker people. I only hear about them on tv.
I do know many white, latino and black rich americans, men and women (I can list some and their professions if needed).
Maybe you need to know rich people who worked their ass's off to not feel such an anger against.

What is the percentage of the population that are shady get rich off the backs of the poor?

Lets look into this and see how many people work hard, are honest and well off. I feel the divide in this country between the rich, middle class and poor is worse than ever not because of the dollar amount separating them but the attitude the media and gov has projected. Who is that private investor in the article you sent me? He is not the bad guy to you right? That could be your neighbor. The gov is the bad guy, who made the risky bet with the money, which isn't really tax payers money, FDIC gets their money else where, or at least by other means not taxing the taxpayers.

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. And we see in her incoherent grammatically haphazard note the failure of Republican education

after 30 years of it in America.



I think like many, she's talking without ever thinking in her mind what any of the words mean. For example, I doubt she really knows what she means when she says "rich".

Also makes the false assumption that her experience is ipso facto universal; for instance, she doesn't know anyone facing bankruptcy because of health care costs, therefore, the idea that people are going bankrupt from health care costs is a lie.

Or the other false assumption of "I don't know anyone who needs help, therefore, I don't need to help".

I don't think she knows history very much, either - the divide between rich, middle-class, and poor is not greater than ever. It's worse than it was 30 or 40 years ago, but that period was an (likely never to be repeated) aberration in human economic history.



I have a feeling that she also says she's a faithful reader of the Bible and follower of Jesus.

[Jade Fox]

9. Talk radio has given us these people who...

talk without understanding what they are saying.

What is bizarre is the people in question don't get it. They don't realize (or care) that they have no real understanding of the meaning behind words.

[louis-t]

20. Talk radio also interferes with rational thought processes.

If rush tells you something that is irrational, illogical, and improbable is rational, logical, and probable, and you believe him, that interferes with the brain's ability to function properly. When rush says that the guy who walked into the Holocaust Museum and killed a black security guard is a "leftist" and you believe him? When rush tells you Obama "doesn't have a birth certificate" and you can go online and see it? Pretty soon your brain is mush.

[fascisthunter]

34. right wing talk radio has convinced lots of uneducated folks

that their irritation should be focused on Dems.

[havocmom]

2. She sounds like an egocentric jerk. If she doesn't see it personally, it doesn't exist.

Tell her THAT and send along the cold, hard facts about the numbers of people who have gone bankrupt paying medical bills, those without and those WITH insurance.

Close by remarking that you don't figure she will recognize facts that don't support her beliefs, but you tried to offer real information, not talking points and arguments the haves propagate to justify the appalling economic injustices in America.

Don't expect her to change. Some people WILL NOT deal with facts. If she has no ability to see beyond her own upturned nose, you can't change her.

And accept that fact that she is not worth the trouble.

[FiveGoodMen]

3. I admire your fortitude

Arguing with people who have her attitude always drives me to complete despair.

[ihavenobias]

26. I think I've reached that point.

I know Thom Hartmann says despair is not an option and I normally agree but...

;)

[zipplewrath]

4. Wow

Unfortunately I recognize the type. There is so much there to "correct", but these types aren't going to be impressed with any kind of recitation of facts. "They know what they know". I'd probably not particularly respond, or maybe pick her one weakest point (I know, kinda hard to choose) and respond with some sort of data or facts. A plot of population and income might open her eyes a bit, something showing the income spread and percentage of population in various income brackets.

But what you are working against here is that peoples personal knowledge and experience almost always has far more effect on their opinions that anything they'll read or hear. It's hard to understand, much less accept, that ones situation or knowledge is "exceptional" or atypical. She sees things in the media of which she has no personal knowledge, and therefor understanding. As such, she comes to the conclusion that the information is flawed, not her understanding. Truth is, there are those on the left that get to that point pretty quickly too. There is a tendency to rush to the conclusion that contrary information is some sort of intentional act on the part of the MSM (or M$M).

[Xolodno]

5. I couldn't help laughing at the Reagan Quote...

Don't tax for the money you need, find a need for the money you get.
-Ronald Reagan

I'd turn this around and back on her, for example:

"Yes there is a need for the money you get...unfortunately its tied up in Iraq un-needingly and hence why a tax is necessary. All that money could have went into health care with no need to raise taxes and instead were providing welfare to another nation. Reagan had the common decency and sense not to get involved in a long dragged out pointless war (pulling out of a lose lose in Lebanon). He had the decency to negotiate with enemies (USSR)to achieve peaceful resolutions and in other hostile countries, he only offered necessary aide but if they wanted freedom they had to pay with their own blood, not ours. Oh and Reagan did raise taxes when it was necessary. My has the Republican Party strayed from the great days of Reagan."

I've always found it a good tactic to use Reagan against much of the current Republican Party....Particularly since it has evolved so hard right that it looks nothing like it did in the 1980's.

[Skittles]

10. reagan made greed and idiocy fashionable

a true dickwad

[Xolodno]

16. And that response....

...plays right into their views and why it never convinces anyone. Plus, it is no different from the e-mail the OP posted. No progress, no enlightenment, no educating, no nothing. It just becomes a shouting match between dickwads.

[Skittles]

18. no, it is just a fucking FACT

reaganomics played a HUGE role in the mess we have today

[Maru Kitteh]

12. Excellent points all! And welcome to DU!

nice post.

[Xolodno]

13. Thats the whole thing...

Any information you provide is automatically suspect and are quick to dismiss. Its only useful when you have a relatively unbiased audience. But when arguing with someone in private who is very biased, they will excuse any "proof" as propaganda or incorrect.

Thus use their own information against them. For one thing if its biased and contorted you will be able to point it out. If its not and legitimate, you may actually learn something and refine your own views. If all they give is ideological gibberish, challenge them to find un-biased and quantified information from multiple sources. More often than not, they are unable to. This causes some to actually rethink their views. If it doesn't....then you know there is no hope of reaching them.

[ihavenobias]

36. As Thom Hartmann frequently points out

Ronald Reagan borrowed more money than all presidents before him, from George Washington to Jimmy Carter, combined.

[Kalyke]

6. Did you email with Sarah Palin?

I can barely understand that drivel. I'm not sure how you pieced things together to even carry on an e-mail conversation with this woman. She has the same problem putting nouns, verbs, adjectives and prepositions in the right order as Palin.

Good for you for trying, though.

[hatrack]

38. Not being able to write clearly- a natural consequence of not being able to think clearly

God, the verbally incontinent and incompetent abound, don't they?

[mnhtnbb]

42. LMAO. "The verbally incontinent and incompetent" That's great.

:rofl:

[ihavenobias]

40. Ha, ha...

Best subject line in this thread.

[KansDem]

7. I'm always amused by this quote (in one guise or another)--

Maybe you need to know rich people who worked their ass's off to not feel such an anger against.

"Rich people worked their asses off..." Just what does this mean? How do "rich people" work their asses off?

Most of the folks I know who are "working their asses off" are just staying afloat...

[yellerpup]

8. It is impossible to change a person's opinion

when that person has a strong opinion to begin with. This woman will have to learn through experience in order to change her position because she doesn't understand what your concerns are and she has been coached into defaulting to a knee jerk reaction when presented with facts. Wonder if she's ever stood up to her father? My sibs couldn't stand up to our (conservative, ethically challenged) dad because they were terrified of his temper. Maybe she's been bullied into accepting this "wisdom" but in any case she's too dull and inflexible to be a worthy debating adversary.

[ihavenobias]

44. She claims she plays devil's advocate to both sides, but I've only seen the one side.

So I'm not sure but I'm skeptical about her standing up to her father. But I could be wrong.

[yellerpup]

47. Her (7th grade level) replies to you and her flawed reasoning power indicates

that she probably doesn't really know what devil's advocate means. She probably thinks it means being a pain in the ass until someone screams at you to shut up. Her mind doesn't seem engaged in her exchanges with you. I would guess that she is only parroting what she hears at home, but I think that parrots deserve more respect for their intelligence. She seems more like a drum machine.

[ihavenobias]

48. That's awesome.

"...she probably doesn't really know what devil's advocate means. She probably thinks it means being a pain in the ass until someone screams at you to shut up..."

I'll have to put that on a t-shirt.

;)

[yellerpup]

50. You're awesome!

:hi:

[Locrian]

11. Authoritarins

Check out the link and read the part about Illogical Thinking in chapter 3:

This is not only “Illogical, Captain,” as Mr. Spock would say, it’s quite
dangerous, because it shows that if authoritarian followers like the conclusion, the
logic involved is pretty irrelevant. The reasoning should justify the conclusion, but for
a lot of high RWAs, the conclusion validates the reasoning. Such is the basis of many
a prejudice, and many a Big Lie that comes to be accepted. Now one can easily
overstate this finding. A lot of people have trouble with syllogistic reasoning, and high
RWAs are only slightly more likely to make such mistakes than low RWAs are. But
in general high RWAs seem to have more trouble than most people do realizing that
a conclusion is false.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

[ihavenobias]

39. Thanks for the link. n/t

[OhioChick]

14. Bookmarked for later. n/t

[mitchum]

15. She's waging class war (it's what she was bred and reared to do)

[NoSheep]

17. Thanks for the update. You've been more than generous and I think it was a good idea

to revisit this...we can always try, right? But in this case, I do agree with the other assessments here. This person seems to have very limited experience and no empathy whatsoever for those less fortunate than herself. "She's got hers" as they say and that's all she cares about. I think this comes from a fear of scarcity. I'd be willing to bet she's not "from money" as they say, nor is she secure with what she has, thus the stinginess. If she were truly rich...she'd likely be a philanthropist as so many of the truly rich are.

The other thing is...she doesn't know history or understand where these rich white men get their money from! MOST of what people do for a living who work for corporations in a capitalist society isn't honest at the core.. There is a lack of understanding where cause and effect are concerned. I think that's just called plain naive!.

These lines I found particularly idiotic; bordering on comical:
"What is the percentage of the population that are shady get rich off the backs of the poor?" The answer...ALL OF THEM, DUMB ASS!!
"What rich corporate white men do you know that got that way off the backs of the poor?" Can we start with Bush I & II, Prescott Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, (need I go on?)

I once had a partner for 11 years whose family was extremely wealthy. They were the first truly rich people I'd ever known. They were "fiscal conservatives" to a degree but not social conservatives. They gave a ton of money to charity (write-offs, yes) and they did it anonymously. I never heard them complain about taxes and I knew them before so many of the regressive taxes had been put into place. His father was the son of a self-made millionaire Russian immigrant who had gotten into real estate in Manhattan way back when. He, the grandfather and then the father, invested wisely in their BUSINESSes, NOT the stock market (!!) and they lived a surprisingly non-extravagant life. They didn't have to screw people in order to make their money. They were honest people AND they knew what it meant to be poor. The father (my partner's father)continued to grow one of his father's small businesses and now it is doing very, very well. They live a bit fancier lifestyle but they never forget how hard it used to be. They considered themselves fortunate. We are not all born to enterprising immigrants who get in on the ground floor in Manhattan...and we aren't all born to those families' sons. They recognized this.

Perhaps your only response should be that you find it unfortunate that she is so financially insecure. :shrug:

[ihavenobias]

45. Well, she was in fact financially insecure the last couple of years.

But now she's out of school (a vocational program, and yes I'm being intentionally vague) and making good money. Even when she was in some credit card trouble, she tried to argue with me that the Dems were wrong for trying to reform shady credit card industry practices and usury rates!

As Thomas Frank said in What's The Matter With Kansas, she really does vote against her own economic interests.

[NoSheep]

46. That's the tragedy, isn't it? All the wanna be's thinking they are one of THEM

or they could be if they just tow the line long enough. My niece, who graduated from college with her other young republican friends told me once "I want to be a winner...not a loser". So that's why she votes for the power elite...she wants to BE one of them and all the while she screws herself and her family with her vote.

[mitchum]

19. What does she do? What does she "work hard at" in order to earn her living?

[rosesaylavee]

21. I pay over $8,000 / annum.

And know that if I use it, that price will go up. We don't have any preexisting either. Just have to pay for it ourselves - not with a group plan anywhere.

[hfojvt]

35. if I worked full time, I could get insurance for $300 a year

but my employer would be paying over $6,000 for one person or over $12,000 for a couple. So to an extent I would be paying over $6,000 in lost wages as well as the $300 that I see. Apparently she does not see that.

[Carni]

22. UG! Some advice....

I wouldn't bother to email that person...they must be stupid, either that or REALLY young and freshly dropped off of a turnip truck.

They have never met any shady CEO's or bank people? LOL! (Apparently they haven't met any CEO's, or banking people)

[hfojvt]

23. yeah, I just re-read my post and at no point did I call you a jerk

complete or otherwise. I said you had a superior attitude. That you looked down at her as JAFD (Just Another Focking Dittohead) and that helped to explain why you could not reach her.

Now what is your purpose here, besides taking a gratuitous swipe at me?

You want to post something she has written so a bunch of DUers can reply "sheesh what a focking moran". Sure, and that probably has some entertainment value on some level, but I don't think it is gonna help you reach her. She may be beyond reach, maybe most people are. This is a quote that I like "Given a choice between (a) changing their mind and (b) proving that there is no need to do so, most people will get busy on the proof."

Then again, I used to be a Republican many years ago, so I think people can and do change. I also remember something another guy told me about a mutual 'friend'. He said he was arguing with this guy, Andy, about some extreme position Andy had, and that a few days later Andy told him he had changed his mind and now had an extreme position that was 180 degrees from the first. He did a facepalm and said Andy just went from one extreme to the other when there was a spot in the middle where he needed to be instead of on the fringe.

It's tough trying to get people to see reason, but I think you have to have a foundation of respect if you are going to have any hope of reaching another. On DU so often we look for people that we can jeer and cast asparagus at and then wonder why we aren't winning more people to our side.

[TrogL]

24. errr, I think it's "cast aspersions"

[CherylK]

25. LOL!!! "cast asparagus"

:rofl:

[hfojvt]

30. normally I would cast aspersions

but I didn't plant any this year

[KamaAina]

43. "casting asparagus" is a mock FReeperism like "moran" or "This is HUGH!!1!!11!!1!"

:P

[jgraz]

27. The fact that she actually *is* a "Focking Dittohead" might have something to do with it

Nothing wrong with adopting a superior attitude if you actually are superior to the imbecile you're talking to. If enough people heap scorn and condescension on this idiot, she may eventually consider undergoing the requisite surgery to uncork her head from her ass.

Of course, her insurance will likely turn it down as a pre-existing condition.

[hfojvt]

29. that's pretty funny

see, I knew that DUers could come up with clever ways to insult. We have nothing if not a 'small talent for war.'

It's also possible that people heaping scorn on anybody who is a moderate will drive them over to BillO where they can have the comfort food of casting asparagus at the moonbats.

The question is whether we are gonna read Thom Hartman's "cracking the code" (a book I bought, but have not yet cracked open) or a liberal version of "How to talk to a liberal (if you must)".

The teachers who poured their derision upon anything we did were, all in all, just another brick in the wall. But when they've given their all, some stagger and fall. After all, it's not easy banging your head against some made buggers wall.

[CherylK]

31. It is very funny!!!

You should try taking your own advice and drop the insults.
:eyes:

[hfojvt]

33. I made an insult? Where?

An insult is comparable to the start of a war. "Go ahead and hate your neighbor. Go ahead an cheat a friend. Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end." The insult, you see, comes from the hatred. The hatred leads to the supposed 'justifiable' assault.

"A small talent for war" was the name of an episode of the New Twilight Zone (from the 1990s or so, not to be confused with the more recent new Twilight Zone). The plot was a group of aliens who landed and announced to the leaders of the world. "We are a race who seeded you here five thousand years ago, and we are disgusted by you. The only talent you seem to have is a small talent for war. We will be returning in a week with an armada to destroy you and start over."

At which point, the leaders sat down and worked around the clock to hammer out an agreement for world peace. When the aliens came back, the world leaders presented this agreement to them, figuring it would save them from being destroyed.

As it turns out, the aliens were mad, not because humans engaged in war, but they were disgusted because our talent was so small.


We did not start the fire of hatred between liberals and conservatives, but we seem determined to fan the flams. We don't seem to want peace between the left and the right. We scoff at the very notion. There is, after all, no way to find common ground with total scumbags and that's what the other side is, doncha know?

Solzhenitsyn wrote

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

We often seem to believe that all the evil in the world comes from FReepers and it is only necessary to marginalize them in order to create paradise. I think we need to drop some of our superciliousness towards others in order to "win hearts and changes minds"

That doesn't of course, mean that I am very good at it.

[walldude]

28. LMAO... "I never met a CEO or any rich shady banker people"

That's because they don't hang out with the peons. :rofl:

[jgraz]

37. I've met several

With the exception of Steve Jobs and my current CEO, they're mostly talentless, amoral parasites.

[Hutzpa]

32. Have you heard of the quote

"Water off a duck's back"

I'm sorry you wasted your time trying to convince an inconceivable person.

[Dappleganger]

41. "I don't know any poor people."

"Why don't people just stop being lazy and go and get themselves a job."

Ummm, we weren't poor before dh was laid off from his six-figure job. We are still not poor because we have savings left, we are paying COBRA and we are still in our house.
But that is not going to last all that long. The jobs dh had before were shipped to Ireland, Puerto Rico and Mexico. He helped train them, pack them up and waved goodbye.

[OhioChick]

49. Kick n/t

[jacksmind]

51. Look it is obvious that she is wrong if you look at this broadly...

It's not that these rich, white, men are per se taking advantage of any other group. It's that there is no rational way to justify their the desert of those unbelievely rich. Look, for various reasons we have and probably should continue to keep some level of inequality, as long as we err on the side of helping out those least fortunate. So when we ask people making 350,000 a year to give an extra 3,000 to help out 47MILLION, that's somehow crazy? If you really want to learn more about this read Rawles and Nozick (Nozick would slightly take her side), but it comes down to a provincial perspective whereby these people can't even fathom what it is like to grow up in a different circumstance--they feel entitled to what they've "earned".

I usually leave most conservatives flabbergasted when I ask these fundamental questions:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/7/20/754711/-How-are-Progressives-Different-Our-Belief-in-LUCK

Sorry for the self-promotion, but please take the 3 min it takes to read and really think about it, because--I believe at least--it is a fundamental difference between those who have had the privilege to be self-aware and those who have not.