"It's too expensive."

[Wizard777]

In light of Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Now, if we can spend 1 Trillion Dollars over 5 years to provide a Common Defense against WMD's that don't exist. THEN DAMN IT! We can spend 1 Trillion Dollars over 10 years to provide for the General Welfare of people with very real injuries and diseases. By Contrast. How can we not do this?

[Cleita]

1. Yes, we can. This is the biggest elephant in the room, the fact that

we can throw trillions to a defense system and to corporate assholes without blinking an eye and then suddenly get all budget conscious when doing something for the common welfare of the population comes up. Do they not see that we can see what they are lying about it?

[cutlassmama]

2. some of them probably see it, but they don't care as long as it goes

against what Obama wants.

[Wizard777]

3. I think we should make them eat crow. It's the perfect shut up.

I can't even begin to think of a come back for that. Follow it up with an Excuse the hell out of us for wanting to spend tax dollars on REAL problems. How much does to it cost to treat injuries from nonexistent weapons?

[Naturyl]

14. Eaxctly.

Money is no object when it comes to lavishing trillions on military contractors, corporations, and other entrenched business interests. But when it comes to actually helping people, every penny suddenly counts.

Funny how that works, eh? Can we say "the best government money can buy?"

[Wizard777]

21. They think they are serving the People. Because those Corporations have Personage.

If we revoke that personage. There will be no other "people" for them to listen to than us real flesh and blood People.



"The best government money can buy." What else would you expect in America where you are entitled to all the Justice you can afford?

[maxpower]

4. Thank you

A thousand times thank you.

[FiveGoodMen]

5. A-fucking-men!

[Carl Skan]

6. Ummmm....

....we couldn't spend a trillion dollars on Iraq. We sold our children and their children into slavery to the Chinese for it.

Even if we completely eliminate the department of defense budget we still wouldn't have a budget surplus of money laying around and we'd have 1.5-million ex-solidiers suddenly without a job.

[Wizard777]

7. That's not going to happen. Even if we are only allowed to maintain a Navy in times of peace.

But the money would simply shift from Payroll to unemployment claims. So if we're spend the money any way. Why not get something for it?

[Carl Skan]

8. What money?

It isn't there. We wouldn't be shifting any money around.

That's the flaw in the "well we have the money to spend, why not spend it on..." thinking. We don't have that money to spend.

I'm absolutely ashamed of what we're doing to future generations. We're damning them to lives of servitude to Chinese lenders because we want to go running all over the globe fighting wars and don't want to face the responsibilities that go along with helping people.

[Wizard777]

9. We can't afford not too. Someone gets sick and they are now a wage slave to the hospital.

If they don't end up losing their home. Because with the hospitals wage garnishment they can no longer afford their mortgage. So the home is auctioned. The hospital moves to seize any equity as income. Now they're on the welfare roles. In that juggling act of high finance. You're either shifting assets or shifting debt. With health care we're choosing to shift public assets to prevent private debt that will shift to public debt. It's really that simple.

[Carl Skan]

10. If you are going to twist phrases like "we can't afford not to"

...while not addressing the fact that we DON'T HAVE THE MONEY, I'm not sure why you would expect a legitimate reply from me.

We don't have the money to shift from the war in Iraq to health care. Are you so short sighted that you have no issue absolutely fucking the next 2-3 generations of Americans with our irresponsibility?

[Wizard777]

11. We haven't had the money since before the days of the great depression.

If we have ever had the money at all. Andrew Jackson was the ONLY president to actually pay off the national debt and have a budget surplus. But long before our government was borrowing money from China. They were borrowing money from J.P. Morgan and others in the "Old Money" crowd. We have just been shifting that debt down the road generation after generation every since then. Screwed by their parents generation after screwed by their parents generation have continued to achieve great and wondrous things in America and the world. So I'm not buying it.

I'm not necessarily saying shift money away from defense. But that couldn't hurt as long as it in done in accordance to real and actual risk assessments. We may need to create new sources of revenue. But Unlike with Iraq. Americans will actually get something for the money. If only being able to get sick with out losing your home or future to a crushing debt. Americans will get something for the money. Healthy people diversely spending money they have also makes for a healthy economy.Everybody gets a lil piece of the pie. The Republicans are saying, NO! We want the megaliths to get the entire pie. That is very destructive to the economy. Don't buy into the Republicans scare tactics.

[Carl Skan]

12. So wait, you know we don't have money to spend...

...but you still think that worn out "well if we can afford so-and-so, we can afford that" is worth wasting the keystrokes on?

[Wizard777]

22. Andrew Jackson is the only President to leave an inheritance.

Every other President has left a debt to their posterity. So we've never really had the money to do all the great and wonderful things we've done. Andrew Jackson is the only true fiscal conservative Pay-Go President we've ever had. They put his picture on our 20 Dollar Bill. I think it's time WE put his face on their Spending Bills. You look this great man in the face as you are trying to figure out how to spend our money. Pass a law that requires his face be printed in the top center of every page of every Spending Bill. Eventually they will get the picture.

[Carl Skan]

24. And it will just keep going on and on.....

...and on with no end right? I mean China will have no problem funding us for as much money as we could ever want right? There's no end to the bottom of the barrel of debt is there? Have you learned nothing from the past two years? It's not like Russia, Middle-East nations, and even China are already looking into switching away from the dollar as an international reserve right?

Oh wait, I haven't been living under a rock during the financial crisis and realize none of that's true.

If you really want to take money from one part of government and apply it to health care in a sustainable manner, we need to bite the bullet (on military and a dozen other wasteful ways of spending in addition to increased taxes) and actually pay off the debt. That would free up 260 BILLLION a year that is currently being pissed down the drain in the form of interest. I'm amazed at otherwise forward looking people who think we can keep on racking up more and more debt with no future consequences.

To your original point, we don't have the money to just move from Iraq to health care. That idea is bunk.

[Wizard777]

25. We also didn't have the money to move into Iraq.

But I agree that at some point we must put the brakes on this. But I can't honestly say Health Care is that point. It's just too vital an area. Face facts. If we're all sick and dying. Common defense becomes a moot point. We'll need the invaders to save us from ourselves.

[Carl Skan]

26. Point taken.

And I tend to agree with you on health care.

I just abhor the comparison you made in the original post in that it implies we have all this money and we're just choosing what to spend it on.

[Wizard777]

28. The actual intent is to say. If we can piss away money on that. We can piss away money on this.

If pissing it away is actually what is. We have to piss here too. So pull the car over and lets do this thing. Just get it over and done with. Just kiss it good bye before we piss it away. If pissing it away is actually what is. We are also in better Constitutional Standings with Health Care than we were with Iraq. So we are more justified in pissing it away in this area. Even if pissing it away is actually what is.

[Naturyl]

15. So providing health care for Americans is "irresponsible?"

Are you sure you're on the right site?

[Carl Skan]

18. Did you even read my reply?

Where did I say we shouldn't provide health care? I pretty clearly said that what's irresponsible is not facing the responsibilities involved in doing so.

Unless funding health care involves something to close the HUGE budget gap, we aren't actually providing health care. We're stealing from our children to provide health care. It's a pretty insidious method of taxation without representation. If you take pride in stealing from kids futures to give to others now, so be it, I find it disgusting.

The idea that the debt providers will never run out is quite simply amazingly ignorant considering what we've gone through over the past two-years.

[area51]

27. This website

may have some of the answers to your concerns. And for the 1.5 million unemployed soldiers figure, if we were ever to become a civilized nation and transition to single-payer healthcare, we're going to need more doctors, nurses, and other medical personnel. Why not offer returning soldiers training in the medical professions? I think a lot of them will take up the offer as opposed to coming back to unemployment in America.

[Naturyl]

13. Hehe, good call.

Repukes HATE IT that the Constitution says "general welfare." They have all sorts of elaborate excuses and rationalizations claiming that "general welfare" doesn't really mean the general welfare... but they know as well as we do they are bullshitting themselves.

[Wizard777]

23. With Bush they understood trying to provide for absolute safety. Even at the expense of our Freedoms

Instead of the common defense and general welfare. But since the beginning of the war on drugs. The government has been ever increasingly viewing We The People as The Enemy. They will continue to do this until we constitute a treason tribunal. How dare they even elude to trying to engage Americans in a war of any kind. It's not a matter of if the government can trust us with our freedoms. It's a matter of if we can trust them with OUR Government. They of all people should know that the exact second you say "War" to Americans. You have secured your downfall and defeat.

[mwooldri]

16. Too expensive? Fuck off and do the maths. Please.

I don't swear too much but in this case goddamn it! The figures are as clear as day and night!

US Medicare covers 45 million people at a cost of $400 billion, and it's not full coverage by any means, covered people still have to pay something significant, and the Part D plan for meds ... well we got something but it isn't very good coverage really.

UK NHS covers 60 million people at a cost of $190 billion (£110 billion) and it's for most part free at the point of delivery, with a small copay for meds for those of working age, and discount possibilities for people with chronic conditions - free for kids, retirees, unemployed, disabled...

Why the fuck can't Americans sort out health care? Oh, I know.. the insurance companies have too much invested in it and are throwing money at our politicians NOT to change the system so their business doesn't go away. That's why. We have too many Blue Cross Blue Shield Congressmembers.

Mark.

[BlueIdaho]

17. Absolutely - This is NOT Health Care Reform

Its just an extra payday for all our elected officials. Now they've had their coffers filled but the cartel they will cluck and fuss and shake their heads and say how really awful they feel that they just couldn't quite to get it done.

[Wizard777]

20. I was quoting Republicans in the title.

But I understand what you mean. My Constitutional cite puts the issue in it's proper perspective. Because insurance is all about liability pools. Both the Republican and their private insurance corporate overlords are trying to make it seem as if the Government is piddling in their liability pool. Article I, Sections 8 establishes the true ownership of the liability pool. The Insurance industry has been piddling in the Governments liability pool. The Capitalists have just out right shit in it. The Government owns the ENTIRE liability pool. Now we have to clean it up. The reason why the costs are lower in places like England is their approach. Their health care industry is geared toward providing for the General welfare of the people. Ours is geared toward maximum profitability. They've priced themselves right out of the market and that fine for them. Because that's where insurance comes in.

They tell the health care industry. We want you to raise your standard price to the uninsured and lower you price for us. This way people will be unable to afford health care and will buy our insurance. So you buy their insurance. You start paying the premiums. Out of those premiums they pay Agents. Claims adjusters, lawyers, middle management, upper management, a lavish salary with an overly generous bonus to a CEO. Then with what ever is left over they pay your medical bills. But only if a claims adjuster can't figure out how to deny the claim. I'm 77. I can remember when there was no such thing as health insurance. It was 100% out of pocket. That forced health care providers to keep their prices low so the average person could afford them. In the line of esteemed people the only person ahead of your doctor was your priest. Now Doctors are in the greedy bastards line ahead of the IRS.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

19. K&R